Official BBR Tier List v7

[Nidtendofreak]

We didn't include MK banned data in this Tier List, last I checked. If we were going to do a MK banned Tier List, then we wouldn't have looked at MK legal tournaments. Two entirely different metagames >___>

For this one, we decided to do a MK legal Tier List, so we only looked at the MK legal data we had at our disposal. For the next one, we're not entirely sure if we're doing MK legal or MK banned though. It's a toss up and will probably depend on what the status quo is like when the time comes. Who knows, we might even need to do both @___@

Weren't like, 60% of the tournaments when the URC was running following the recommended ruleset, meaning that MK was banned in over half of the tournaments...meaning you guys ignored over half of the available tournament data?

....

That's just silly. If there are two metagames, you put a tier list up for the bigger one. That's just common sense really.

 

[Wumbo105]

So besides the fact that results count for 12% of the decision, which isn't much, why exactly is Kirby so low? While I do agree his results have been crappy recently, that 12% shouldn't bring him down that much.
I would have bet my tuition that he was gonna move up, even if it was 1 measly spot. He's an above-average character in every aspect, and he doesn't have as many bad matchup as people would expect.. I just don't understand why he always gets the short end of the stick. I'm really trying to be unbiased here, despite Kirby being my main.

 

[xDD-Master]

Weren't like, 60% of the tournaments when the URC was running following the recommended ruleset, meaning that MK was banned in over half of the tournaments...meaning you guys ignored over half of the available tournament data?

....


That's just silly. If there are two metagames, you put a tier list up for the bigger one. That's just common sense really.

 

[bubbaking]

What, exactly, is inconsistent? They gave all of the things they used for their data, and then listed the percentage that those data contributed to the overall tier list. I don't think they skewed it purposefully just to **** with Ganon, they probably have better things to do.

If his results were better than those around him, then his placing is probably due to a combination of other things, like his match up spread or the votes of the BBR members. Also, I haven't checked the data, but is Ganon earning more money per Ganon than those around him, or were there just more Ganons? That could be another factor.

I'm gonna give the BBR the benefit of the doubt and say their math checks out because, once again, there's no reason to just piss on Ganon when only like 14 people care about the bottom 75% of the tier list anyway.

Actually, more money is being earned "per Ganon" than is being earned per Zelda, Link, Samus, Bowser, Mario, Yoshi, Sheik, Luigi, or Kirby. Just checked the chart now. Also, Ganon earned more total money (and thus had a higher percentage of all the winnings) than Zelda, Bowser, or Kirby. I personally think Ganon should not be at the bottom of the tier list and these factual results prove it. I think the BBR just doesn't like Ganon.

Weren't like, 60% of the tournaments when the URC was running following the recommended ruleset, meaning that MK was banned in over half of the tournaments...meaning you guys ignored over half of the available tournament data?

....

That's just silly. If there are two metagames, you put a tier list up for the bigger one. That's just common sense really.

That's exactly what I told him face-to-face.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Winwinwin

 

[bubbaking]

America's called 'land of the free' for a reason

 

[Hat N' Clogs]

America ftw

 

[Dre89]

I speak for every non American when I say that this is absolute class.

It's true on so many levels.

 

[XLR8TION]

damn olimar is 2nd now? welp.

 

[Kink-Link5]

The Xenophobia in this thread is reaching critical mass.

 

[TreK]

The Xenophobia in this thread is reaching critical mass.

False.

Let me add a japanese continent in the shape of an olimar to that map and only then it'll reach that critical mass.

 

[Xubble]

Lulz at the Olimar placement. We get our butts handed to us by Nietono and the rest of Japan, and we just smack his main right below our beloved leader, MK. Not that I don't think Olimar is 2 spot material or anything, but I wasn't expecting a straight leap to 2nd. Kudos to Nietono the Oli mains and such.

On a more personal level:

ICs went up! ^_^
Dedede falls again. ._.
Ganon is still bottom. :|

 

[Laem]

Lol Akuma

I'm a bit disappointed that of all tiers it has to be top tier that's so wrong =/

Why is Diddy still considered top 3? His match-ups and results aren't top 3. He should be 4th or 5th.
Snake is 4th at worst. Olimar MIGHT be better than him but Diddy has never been and will never be a better character than Snake.
Olimar isn't 2nd best. ICs are better than him period. If you're generous you can give him 3rd but I think Snake's better.

Swapping Diddy with IC and Olimar with Snake would make top tier perfect imo.

Peach is still massively overrated, Lucas should probably leave Low Tier by now and Ganondorf's position as worst character should be reconsidered next time.

On the plus side the drops of Falco, Marth, Wario, GW and DK are all entirely warranted. I'd move B-Tier into "High" though

a. Will you ever stop recognizing your opinion as fact?
b. Olimar was on average voted as 3rd i think. 2nd place (which came as a shocker to most really) was caused by the Usage/Winning ratio in which Olimar has even MK beat, even though John#'s list only weighed 12%.
c. Regarding diddy, I guess you'll just have to live with general consensus which is diddy = broken piece of ****.
c. Snake is like 10th at absolute worst. Go work on your terminology. In general, tierlists are way more dynamic than you'd like them to be. His current placement is fine and I don't really see him rising any time soon.
d. Ganon's placement was reconsidered.
e. I can agree with your last preference. Not that it matters really, especially in dire times where Sheilda is way ahead of Sheik.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

a. Will you ever stop recognizing your opinion as fact?

No!

b. Olimar was on average voted as 3rd i think. 2nd place (which came as a shocker to most really) was caused by the Usage/Winning ratio in which Olimar has even MK beat, even though John#'s list only weighed 12%.

So basically ... nobody actually thinks Olimar is the 2nd best character in the game. But you put him there anyway. K

c. Regarding diddy, I guess you'll just have to live with general consensus which is diddy = broken piece of ****.

Diddy is a broken piece of ****. Not even denying that. Can't see him anywhere better than 4th though.

 

[Seagull Joe]

There was an entire Man vs. Food episode in San Antonio. I eat at those places here and there. I got you.

...if you admit Sonic > Wolf.

He was...At MLG events.

Okay I used hyperbole but even so:
I'm not a Fox main. SLS definitely isn't a Wolf main, don't pretend. And despite AC perhaps outplacing TKD once (where?) I'm pretty sure TKD's accolades far surpass AC's.

EDIT: Beyond that Yui and SLS are in Different regions and don't compete. Yui is in the more competitive East Japan with the likes of Rain, Nietono, Brood and Mikenoko and SLS is in West Japan with 9b, Souther and Masashi. Though talking about SLS is pointless because he's a Falco main who has used more MK as secondary than Wolf.

You said name one and I did clown.

e. I can agree with your last preference. Not that it matters really, especially in dire times where Sheilda is way ahead of Sheik.

Hilarious statement.

 

[Ruinn]

For anyone who wants an explanation for DK's movement, heres what i posted in the new tier list thread:

For the formation of the BBR matchup chart V 2.0 there were 4 players chosen to decide on DK’s ratios. Ook, Will, Ripple and Me. I made 70% of the posts out of all the DK’s, Ook posted maybe two or three times, Ripple responded often but rarely in more than two or three sentences. Will posted a few times but not in any of the important matchups that were decided against us. I myself was in between characters during the course of the discussions and switched between having very pessimistic views of DK to very optimistic.

1/3 of the cast tried to increase their rating against Dk in their favor and many of them got their wish, some rightfully some not. Important matchups like DK vs GW were decided against us by ONE post from Vinnie who basically said “this matchup is +1 GW, Will will agree with me” If I remember correctly Will had a positive or near even record against Vinnie before he picked up ice climbers. Other matchups like DK vs PT were decided against us because PT had more respected players like Reflex while DK had only me. The few times Will actually posted, the opponents would often argue that he was an outlier even though there have been many players that have performed at his level: Cable, Dr. G and most recently Nairo. None of these players are currently active unfortunately.

The four matchups that most DK’s will have a problem with are. GW, PT, Snake, Fox. These are the only four that I firmly believe are wrong.

Pit, Kirby, Sonic, Wolf, Falco and Pika could be argued another point in our favor if DK were to play the matchup nearly flawless but I’m not particularly determined to win those cases by myself.

All the posts about DK losing points in the matchup chart due to DK not having enough representation are true. If I was a more accomplished player or if well-known players like Will or Cable had posted more than DK’s standing would be a bit more optimistic.

From Neon. If this is true, than that's pretty absurd because more accomplished players would just overcome our statements with a statement of their own and in reality all of our match ups are so low because of not enough representation? :C

 

[xDD-Master]

a. Will you ever stop recognizing your opinion as fact.

Finally someone else beside me that hates that XD
You should really stop trying to sound more knowledgable than the others Gheb.

 

[Conviction]

No fighting.

 

[tibs7]

laem, you're terrible.
dont know how you got into br

 

[CYVE]

Pit +3 totally deserved

 

[~ Gheb ~]

You should really stop trying to sound more knowledgable than the others Gheb.

I am more knowledgable than the others Gheb.

 

[Coney]

from a pure results perspective, doesn't this make sense to everyone? isn't this pretty much a DIRECT REFLECTION of how characters have been doing since the last tier list? it feels like it to me.

i don't understand all these elitist people coming in, saying "LOL THIS SUCKS XD," then leaving. especially you casual players. like, there's nothing wrong with playing casually, but odds are you're complaining about a metagame that has gotten away from you.

what are some people's actual legitimate qualms about the list? because it looks pretty Goddamn good to me, except a few things:

- i can understand people wanting IC higher. this is because in theory, they ARE the best character in the game. give it time, it might happen, especially if we adopt that wacky *** ruleset (WOW j.a.p. is a slur? THIS IS 2012)

- DK and luigi falling so hard. i mean, i get that they've fallen off, but i still don't think they should be THAT low. will still consistently gets ~top 5 in the hardest region in the world (actually maybe not anymore BUT STILL), maybe i'm wrong but what ROB keeps up with that? or shielda?

- borderline tier is stupid, lmfao. borderline tiers event!

 

[BlueXenon]

Pikachu would be in the second tier if more good players used him. How is it fare that a good character gets placed so low just because there aren't enough good players to win with him. This is why tier lists should be based on how good a character is and their match ups.

 

[Pierce7d]

Top
S: (±0)
A: (+6) (-1) (+3) (-2)
B: (-2) (-2) (+1) (-3)

High
C: (+2) (-1) (-1) (+1)

Borderline
D: (+2) (-2) (-1) (±0) (+3)

Mid
E: (+1) (-1) (+3) (±0) (-5) (-1) (+1)
F: (+2) (±0) (+1) (-4)

Low
G: (±0) (±0) (+1) (-1) (±0)
H: (+1) (-1) (±0) (±0)​

What's funny is, people keep arguing over their character because they only see the game from the perspective of one character, or maybe 2 because I think a lot of us see the game from MKs perspective. Try playing a range of characters, and study to grasp the game at a high level of play. If you've been playing attention, most of the top players (I'm not saying BBR members, I said top players) have not really disagreed with the list. This probably means that the list is reasonably well founded.

Also, I've long held the opinion that the mid tier in this game is very well balanced. The top tiers are there because they have tools which shut out the rest of the cast. The rest of the cast has decent tools to fight each other though, and it mostly comes down to player skill. Of course, with so many characters, you're going to have a massive gap between the best (MK) and the worst (Ganon) but characters near each other, and even 1 or 2 tiers away (or even 3 tiers away in a lot of instances) are going to be able to combat each other, and have favorable MUs with characters above them. This means that it's futile and silly to bicker over something like Pit above DK, because in actuality, despite the ordering, the viability of these characters is similar (outside of infinites, etc)

I definitely don't think Ike is better than Sheik, but honestly, even with my expansive knowledge of the game, and massive amount of both study and gametime, I could not stand before any of you and say, "The BBR are fools, Sheik is better than Ike."

What's most amusing is, half of you don't even agree on what "better" means in this instance, haha.

 

[Vinylic.]

It looks like people skipped this post.

So besides the fact that results count for 12% of the decision, which isn't much, why exactly is Kirby so low? While I do agree his results have been crappy recently, that 12% shouldn't bring him down that much.
I would have bet my tuition that he was gonna move up, even if it was 1 measly spot. He's an above-average character in every aspect, and he doesn't have as many bad matchup as people would expect.. I just don't understand why he always gets the short end of the stick. I'm really trying to be unbiased here, despite Kirby being my main.

Because sincerely, I'd like to know why as well.

 

[BuRnT EGGs]

Yesss...My main Yoshi moved up +2!!! :D Wooo!! People dont seem to realize how great Yoshi really is, all hes been doing is slowly moving up. He does chain grab 19+ Charecters and that includes MK, so he should be up some more.

GO YOSHI!!!!!!!!! >:D

 

[Dabuz]

Kirby doesn't have a good MU spread. He loses to most high and top tiers, with his best MUs against them being even. The only characters he has an advantage against are characters worse than him. (Except fox) He has a notable lack of results lately, how can a character be bumped up if both his MU spread AND results do not work in his favor?

 

[Linkshot]

Yoshi goes up at the same rate it takes people to learn him

 

[8Bitman]

Oh you a main a Low/Mid Tier?

Tell me how much better of a character he is than mine.

 

[Pierce7d]

I play Kirby a lot. He is not an above average character. He has virtually the definition of an average character.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Nice post, Pierce.

I know this sounds cocky / whatever coming from me but I feel like a lot of people have the stance ... [and I wouldn't be surprised if some of these top players do too] but I feel like I don't. Maybe it's because I have literally zero affection to any character. This is why I feel like quite a bunch of people's opinions should be looked at with this in mind: they are looking at this game from "their" character's point of view or can't look at it from any other. Not just in this kind of discussion but in others as well [@MK ban for example].

But you're right, the tier list for the most part looks solid enough. Olimar / Diddy being switched with IC / Snake would make it perfect to me but for some reason people seem to think Snake's going down despite his consistency [which contradicts the baseless claim that he's been "figured" out]. Imho there's hardly a character where there's such an extreme misproportion between how [un]talented his playerbase is and how successful the character is than in Snake's case.

Low tier will probably never be quite resolved. I don't see Ganon as the worst, I think Samus is a bit overrated and Falcon greatly overrated, whereas Zelda and Ganon should be a bit higher.

But I think most people can agree now that Lucas is the wrong tier at least?

 

[Ruinn]

All my mains/secondaries have gone down.(snake, dk, luigi)

I guess I was right in thinking of picking up ic's and olimar. ;-;

 

[Tacket]

Ruinn, drop Olimar, you have no potential with that character.
Stick with ICs.

HAcoreRD

 

[Vinylic.]

Tacket, don't even.

People can learn how to play each character they please.

 

[Tacket]

I was joking with Ruinn.
We've been joking about this for a while now.

HAcoreRD

 

[BSP]

I was expecting Lucas to at least move out of low tier in this one too.

 

[Pierce7d]

It's really so amusing how people look at the game from the point of view of one character. I especially love when people say things like, "Character X is just getting held back like MK" like the entire cast doesn't have a disadvantage to MK. ICE CLIMBERS are being held back by Metaknight, not frikken Peach, LOL.

I would say that I see Zelda as underrated (it's me who suggested that massive drop long ago), and I agree Samus is overrated. But at the same time, these characters can contest each other, and I'll still need years more study before I begin to throw my opinion/perspective around like finite conclusion. I've been advocating that Snake needed to drop FOREVER. I don't think Falcon needs to move really.

I do think most of us will agree that Lucas is better than is currently shown. He is very similar to Wario in playstyle. Abuse aerial mobility, wrack up massive damage with full jump Dairs, and land early K.O. moves. Lucas has a more solid ground game and a campable projectable, while Wario has more weight, mobility and base power. Both characters also get massively punished for getting grabbed. Wario shines far and away the better choice because his playstyle revolves less around his ground game, and he has the greater mobility meaning that he has much more survivability and is less likely to be grabbed. Still, I feel Lucas is a bit better than the Tier list currently represents him.

 

[Pierce7d]

All my mains/secondaries have gone down.(snake, dk, luigi)

I guess I was right in thinking of picking up ic's and olimar. ;-;

lol? This isn't Marvel, where characters get patched. The tier list is merely an interpretation of how good a character is relative to the rest of the cast, but the characters you play didn't actually get worse, LOL. Every character has been exactly the same potency as they were in March 2008.

However, I would say that playing more top tier characters will increase you chances of tournament victory.

 

[SFA Smiley]

Been saying Oli was 2nd for years now and literally said Peach, Fox, Wolf, and Gdubs deserve their own tier. So yeah I'm mostly satisfied.

I don't think Ike is better than sheik either but I saw shielda and i'm like whatever.

And Ganon isn't the worst IMO.

 

[xDD-Master]

I think Samus is a bit overrated

Samus is Mid-Tier.