Official BBR Tier List v7

[Tacket]

Samus can't even kill lol.

HAcoreRD

 

[xDD-Master]

Who needs kills

 

[Pierce7d]

Samus is Mid-Tier.

I would be very pleased to discuss this with you, but I'm going to need a bit more evidence than nothing this to begin.

 

[Nairo]

Olimar shouldnt be top 2 all he had done outside of apex was win a couple of MK BANNED tourneys then when its mk legal the olimars who did well got wreck like nothing ICs should be second if anything and omg @ dk -5 LOL I dont even know what to say to that cause thats ******** LOL.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

It's a primarily NA tier list; there is a reason why their is a European Tier List link right in the OP. That's also where the vast majority of their tournament data would have come from: NA....where 60% of the tournaments were MK banned.

Like it not, NA tournaments and the NA scene matter the most here.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Also going to say DK is looking hella sickly down there below Kirby and Sonic.

 

[xDD-Master]

I would be very pleased to discuss this with you, but I'm going to need a bit more evidence than nothing this to begin.

Actually I was kind of joking, and just wanted to hang out the Gheb and present my opinions as fact

On a serious side, I think Samus could be potentially Mid-Tier.

Ridiculous spacing with Zair and Missiles, kinda good close combat tools with Ftilt and jab (Ofc. they alone wouldnt be so good, but combined with her Spacing/Zoning tools(projectiles) they get pretty handy), incredible strong platform pressure tools with UpAir und Uptilt (When the oppenant is near the end of a platform / or going to drop after another move), and to add to all of this, a really good recovery. And if done correctly a pretty safe escape tool with up-b OoS.
She can also set many traps with Missiles and Down-B, which will help her in finally getting the kill with an Uptilt, Dtilt or FSmash.
And she also got probably the best spiking game, because of her floatiness and great dair range. With Zair / Nair / Ftilt / Bomb Edgeguard Mix-Ups she can also steal other characters second jumps, and if a character is recovering from below she not only has his spike but also the tether to gain invi frames back to edghog even more effectively (for example vs. spacies - maybey the should never end there anyway, but thats not to debate right?...)
And then also, on stages like Delfino when you get to walk offs, her Zair gets incredibly scary for some characters ._."

Maybe I think different on her, because I saw a lot of quik already, and played him a lot too. Maybe its just me & germany / europe that sucks vs him, but there's nothing you can do about it.
Its hard to judge characters if you never get to play such good players of them, because just watching from videos also doesnt work, as its a lot easier to see mistakes from your oppenant, when dont have to play yourself, and also a lot harder to follow mindrelated when not playing yourself. (Like when you get pressured and you dont know exactly what options too choose, because sometimes things can happen pretty fast, when watching videos its a lot easier to see options than while playing yourself).

 

[WindMajor]

It's a primarily NA tier list; there is a reason why their is a European Tier List link right in the OP. That's also where the vast majority of their tournament data would have come from: NA....where 60% of the tournaments were MK banned.

Like it not, NA tournaments and the NA scene matter the most here.

No, this is tier list reflects the worldwide Brawl community, since the BBR is composed of members around the world. Even though there's more Americans in the BBR than people from other countries, the focus is actually the opposite of what you say, the focus is the entire world. This would explain why the Tier List puts so little weight on John#'s data, because it's only a reflection of the American metagame, and not the world wide metagame.

Regardless, the explanation you're looking for is in the first paragraph in the OP. It's an MK legal tier list because the BBR felt it's too early for an MK banned one, since he only got banned like a month before we started this. Not even our first tier list was that soon.

 

[Fuujin]

lolol so worldwide Sheilda has proven herself to be 3 spots above Sheik?

And better than Ike, Sonic, Luigi, Yoshi, etc?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

@Akuma

Well, it's not like I'm not open to serious discussion lol. Just because I take my own stances and consider them fact until [empirically] proven wrong doesn't mean I'm not open to other people's opinions. If they are presented on a solid basis, that is.

I think you have a personal issue with Samus ... you should know what I mean so I'm not going deeper into that. Snake still beats Samus about +2 though. The problem is that all the good things Samus has ... leads to nothing. Zair has long range but is still not a better spacing tool than what other Low Tier characters have to offer. The risk is low but the reward is virtually non-existent. Something DLA has pointed out [and greatly helped me playing the match-up] is that as long as Samus is in a position to use Zair [her only viable long-ranged spacing tool] she removes all her options to kill. When she's getting in the air to use zair there's virtually no risk at rushing at her to get a couple of hits in. Even if you get hit by 5 zairs in a row you're safe to rush in again because there's no more punishment to take than some lousy % and pathetic knockback. And if you get a powershield and thus one hit you've already made up for that. And she still got nothing to make up for her lack of kill power. Like, her individual moves, traits and frame data seem to be not that bad but it doesn't add up to a working character ... it's actually quite the opposite XD

But I also hear that she's going even with Peach and Rob [supposedly]. Maybe her overall match-up spread is a bit better than that of other low tiers because of that but I'd go as far as to claim that her overall viability is even lower than that of Ganondorf [who, depending on who you ask has a manageable match-up vs Snake, Wario, Marth, Lucario and Diddy Kong].

 

[san.]

Has Sheik done anything these past 4 years? There's no representation in the US as far as I know other than maybe a few key matches, but that was also a long time ago. She does have a well rounded rep in EU and Japan, though..

 

[Fuujin]

Sheilda wins munny at play N trade tournaments.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=301324

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=303220

Totally worthy of a 3 position boost imo

 

[WindMajor]

lolol so worldwide Sheilda has proven herself to be 3 spots above Sheik?

And better than Ike, Sonic, Luigi, Yoshi, etc?

Look at the data, Sheilda does well partly because her Money/Usage ratio is above average. She's like 11th or something on it. Other than that, her MUs are average and in votes, she would've placed below Sonic.

Also, Sheik is pretty popular in Europe/Japan, Sheilda isn't too far off that mark.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

There's a few Sheiks running around NA such as myself (Sheilda), Judo, Tutu, Killik, Dcoid, Mars, and others. Not many people play her. As far as what's been done.... I do well when I do go out to play in FL. Judo does very well in his region as does Tutu. Killik and Tree are improving in Texas, Tree does really good. We just need more rep because we each do good in our regions, but I think we can all afford to improve. I don't think there have been tourney wins for us but yea, placements aren't all too bad.

 

[Fuujin]

I just pointed that out.

Did you guys actually look at the tournaments she won money in or did you just see a decent amount of money and assume she should be higher?

I run the Zelda tournament results thread, Ed makes nice money but he goes to Play N trade tournaments with 40 people who are all bad.
It just looks really irresponsible on the BBRs part to jump to the conclusion that winning money means a character should rise without checking where the money comes from.
Money earned =/= tier list placing.

If I start to round up 25 kids at my community college who are all terrible at this game, I host tournaments and we play once a month and I win $$$.
Will this make Zelda go up 3 positions?

Edit: Ed youre the only one who ever places in the money lol, most of the Sheilda money earned the last year comes from you.

Also Lucas has had better and more consistent results than Sheik(and other characters above him).

 

[#HBC | Scary]

Not everyone is bad at those tourneys. Top 10 to 15 are all really solid.

I miss those tourneys, owner doesn't host anymore.

EDIT: really? That's cool! Tutu uses Sheilda some and places in or near the money but I think he's the only other one. Not sure really.

 

[bubbaking]

Pikachu would be in the second tier if more good players used him. How is it fare that a good character gets placed so low just because there aren't enough good players to win with him. This is why tier lists should be based on how good a character is and their match ups.

Didn't you just post this exact same thing earlier?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Sheik isn't popular in Europe anymore and only so-so in Japan. She's cool but it's just so much work to do actually do well with her =/

And tbh, I can see where people come from when they think Sheilda should be that much higher than Sheik. Without Zelda, Sheik is unviable vs Pikachu and has a harder time vs DDD. An improved match-up vs a borderline high-tier and a match-up against a borderline top tier turning from unviable to perfectly manageable is something that could reasonably be estimated to give her some sort of boost - 4 spots doesn't seem entirely unreasonable, if we also take into account that Zelda might make live easier to get kills vs mid-weights like Peach, ROB or Pit.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

...........

 

[#HBC | Scary]

Gheb, did Biggad and Light both quit/retire? I haven't heard of them in ages? Is Purple-H the only one that uses Sheik anymore in Europe?

 

[Fuujin]

Not everyone is bad at those tourneys. Top 10 to 15 are all really solid.

1. RedHalberd $60
2. Ed!!! $30
3. Trumptight $20
4. Mic
5. Lies
5. oLJO
7. Fidel Cashflow
7. Tong
9 NekoCrispy
9 Takao
------------------------------------------------
1 Ganja 75 (lost to no one)
2 Ed!!/ScaryLB59 40 (lost to Ganja twice)
3 Trumptight 25? (lost to Ed twice)
4 Mattt (lost to Ganja and Trump)
5 Lies (lost to Ed and Mattt)
5 Mic (lost to Ganja and Trump)
7 Ryder (lost to Mic and ???)
7 oLJo (lost to Mic and Lies)
9 Fidel CashFlow
9 iPresea
------------------------------------------------
1 RedHalberd 75
2 Mampam 40
3 Ganja (forfeited and left after winners finals) 25?
4 Ed!!/ScaryLB59 15?
5 Aglow
5 Mic Lorenzo
7 Mattt
7 Ryder
9 Abyss
9 Trumptight
9 C.J.
9 Tong
9 NekoCrispy

 

[bubbaking]

I just pointed that out.

Did you guys actually look at the tournaments she won money in or did you just see a decent amount of money and assume she should be higher?

I run the Zelda tournament results thread, Ed makes nice money but he goes to Play N trade tournaments with 40 people who are all bad.
It just looks really irresponsible on the BBRs part to jump to the conclusion that winning money means a character should rise without checking where the money comes from.
Money earned =/= tier list placing.

If I start to round up 25 kids at my community college who are all terrible at this game, I host tournaments and we play once a month and I win $$$.
Will this make Zelda go up 3 positions?

Edit: Ed youre the only one who ever places in the money lol, most of the Sheilda money earned the last year comes from you.

Also Lucas has had better and more consistent results than Sheik(and other characters above him).

That's why the results only factored in 12% of the placing, I guess. Also, Ganon "has had better and more consisten results" than other characters above him. Why in the world is he still last?

 

[WindMajor]

Again, look at the data and you'll understand.

It isn't so much about the money as it is the ratio between money and usage. If few people use Zelda but they make a lot of money, then you have a character that'll make a nice impact on the Money/Usage. This is the case for Olimar (small amount of mains + a lot of cash) and not the case for Metaknight (a large amount of mains + a large amount of cash), even though Metaknight is a **** and basically invalidates that logic due to the sheer amount of money he makes.

Also, it's only 12% of the tier list, look at the data again and you'll realize just how significant the money was to her placing (not very).

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Gheb, did Biggad and Light both quit/retire? I haven't heard of them in ages? Is Purple-H the only one that uses Sheik anymore in Europe?

Biggad is inactive and I doubt he plays anymore, Light did poorly at the last tourney and raged about Snake and GW [lol!] and Purple~H is ranked as Snake only. He supposedly gets his wins with Sheik here and there but the big ones are all Snake.

Dunno what happened to Izaw either.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

You and your gifs fuujin......your also missing the one where I won lol.

Also @ Gheb, that's a shame that Biggad is inactive. He was fun to watch. Does light have anything new up, maybe I can send some tips or something. Yea....Izaw just kind of vanished but he really doesn't enter events anyway does he?

 

[bubbaking]

Again, look at the data and you'll understand.

It isn't so much about the money as it is the ratio between money and usage. If few people use Zelda but they make a lot of money, then you have a character that'll make a nice impact on the Money/Usage. This is the case for Olimar (small amount of mains + a lot of cash) and not the case for Metaknight (a large amount of mains + a large amount of cash), even though Metaknight is a **** and basically invalidates that logic due to the sheer amount of money he makes.

Also, it's only 12% of the tier list, look at the data again and you'll realize just how significant the money was to her placing (not very).

Actually, more money is being earned "per Ganon" than is being earned per Zelda, Link, Samus, Bowser, Mario, Yoshi, Sheik, Luigi, or Kirby. Just checked the chart now. Also, Ganon earned more total money (and thus had a higher percentage of all the winnings) than Zelda, Bowser, or Kirby. I personally think Ganon should not be at the bottom of the tier list and these factual results prove it. I think the BBR just doesn't like Ganon.

 

[Fuujin]

You never posted the one that you won in the results thread.

So if munny earned only had "12%" effect on the tier list, then why would Sheilda go up 3 spots?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Pokèmon Trainer doing work in the "money earned/popularity" section.

 

[bubbaking]

How about someone answers why Ganon is still last? >:/

 

[#HBC | Scary]

I thought I did.... Lemme go digging.

I think she went up Not just because of the money but also that her overall MU spread isn't too bad I think.

 

[Tommy_G]

Falco is still too high on the tier list.

 

[Bazooka Joe]

Pokèmon Trainer doing work in the "money earned/popularity" section.

Well he does have practice robbing children and bug catchers on dirt roads.

How about someone answers why Ganon is still last? >:/

Because if someone wins with Ganon, it just makes them feel that much more awesome.

 

[Fuujin]

How about someone answers why Ganon is still last? >:/

No one really cares enough about bottom tier to bother changing things.

I thought I did.... Lemme go digging.

I think she went up Not just because of the money but also that her overall MU spread isn't too bad I think.

Lol isnt Sheilda's Mu spread the same as Sheiks except

0 -> +1

-3 -> -2

So that makes her +4 spots above Sheik?

 

[#HBC | Scary]

I haven't looked in a while.

Also, here's that link for ya Fuu:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=309072

 

[bubbaking]

Well, now look at it from a weighted perspective. Pika is top tier and D3 is high tier, so having improved MUs against those two chars is really good. Improves the weighted MU rating by +9, I believe, iirc what CJ told me.

 

[xDD-Master]

@Akuma

Well, it's not like I'm not open to serious discussion lol. Just because I take my own stances and consider them fact until [empirically] proven wrong doesn't mean I'm not open to other people's opinions. If they are presented on a solid basis, that is.

I think you have a personal issue with Samus ... you should know what I mean so I'm not going deeper into that. Snake still beats Samus about +2 though. The problem is that all the good things Samus has ... leads to nothing. Zair has long range but is still not a better spacing tool than what other Low Tier characters have to offer. The risk is low but the reward is virtually non-existent. Something DLA has pointed out [and greatly helped me playing the match-up] is that as long as Samus is in a position to use Zair [her only viable long-ranged spacing tool] she removes all her options to kill. When she's getting in the air to use zair there's virtually no risk at rushing at her to get a couple of hits in. Even if you get hit by 5 zairs in a row you're safe to rush in again because there's no more punishment to take than some lousy % and pathetic knockback. And if you get a powershield and thus one hit you've already made up for that. And she still got nothing to make up for her lack of kill power. Like, her individual moves, traits and frame data seem to be not that bad but it doesn't add up to a working character ... it's actually quite the opposite XD

But I also hear that she's going even with Peach and Rob [supposedly]. Maybe her overall match-up spread is a bit better than that of other low tiers because of that but I'd go as far as to claim that her overall viability is even lower than that of Ganondorf [who, depending on who you ask has a manageable match-up vs Snake, Wario, Marth, Lucario and Diddy Kong].

Sanke +2 vs. Samus, WTF man, never ever.
I demand you playing a MM with Snake vs. quiKsilver at A.S.S.! Please record it, and if you dont get completely analy ***** (That said, you get him to last stock for example), I will take my words back about it, but before that: NO WAY!

And Ganondorf better than Samus?... lold

Funny, as we were talking about snake today, I think Snake does REALLY well vs Ganondorf haha!

 

[san.]

I didn't want to bring drama, I was really just wondering. I only know of Ed, Judo, and Tutu, and I don't really know how Judo or Tutu place.

In previous tier lists I always thought sheik was underrated but she never really had many results to back her up so I was always wondering why.

@Gheb she's not as popular in EU anymore? I clearly remember some vids of some sheiks doing well against some of the better Falcos over there.

 

[Rayquaza07]

oli

that is all

 

[WindMajor]

You never posted the one that you won in the results thread.

So if munny earned only had "12%" effect on the tier list, then why would Sheilda go up 3 spots?

Again... look at the data: http://www.2shared.com/file/pgYbLxe5/TierListv7edited.html

She's around where she should be, but the rest of the cast moves alongside her. For example, DK's huge drop had an effect on Sheilda going up +1. All of your answers are in the data, just look.

 

[Rayquaza07]

and snake sux :V