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Official BBR Tier List v5

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Tesh

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There's nothing wrong with banning a tactic that is far too good and still allowing the character to be used in tourneys. Mk's downB isn't what we're restricting, we're restricting the use of his broken glitch. It's not even a part of the game or the character, it's just faulty programming that turned out to be far too useful to let it rampage.

Soooo, what's your goal? You want Zelda and Sheik to be out of the tier list, or you want everyone in the game to be allowed in low tiers? What about Samus, since she has the option of changing into a high tier character, what happens to her?

There's a difference between Zelda and Sheik's case, and your Sonic because you're not choosing your best options. The game recognizes Sheik and Zelda as separate characters, they have their own victory poses, battle portraits, different movesets, you can choose them in the character selection screen as separate characters, and the game doesn't force you to transform between them. However, the game doesn't discern your limited Sonic from a full-power Sonic. Same with a MK that doesn't use tornado... And PT is still forced to transform whenever he dies.
The MK comment was just a joke. hehe

I don't really have a "goal" here as far as affecting policy. I feel that Sheik is worse than Yoshi and PT(maybe) anyway and that would put her at the bottom of mid tier or top of low tier.

Each pokemon has its own victory poses, movesets and you can choose which one to start as. Everything about them is different aside from transforming being mandatory. The fact that its an option as opposed to an obligation fo Zelda doesn't make it irrelevant.

And yes, Samus would be just below ZSS on the tier list (even starting and Samus and switching right away is a big weakness).
 

Nefarious B

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Alright fair enough. So you think Climbers would rather start off on battle field than SV?

To whoever it was that said to pivot grab nado, I feel like the MK should be smart enough to nado high so that it couldn't be grabbed and would punish the grab attempt. Blizzard is a much more effective wall imo but that has gaps that you can exploit, you have to do desynches to cover each of MK's options which is more than I know about ICs
 

Kewkky

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I don't really have a "goal" here as far as affecting policy. I feel that Sheik is worse than Yoshi and PT(maybe) anyway and that would put her at the bottom of mid tier or top of low tier.
That's an opinion. :\

Each pokemon has its own victory poses, movesets and you can choose which one to start as. Everything about them is different aside from transforming being mandatory. The fact that its an option as opposed to an obligation fo Zelda doesn't make it irrelevant.
The fact that the game forces you to use all 3 of them in the same match when you choose any of them makes all the difference.

And yes, Samus would be just below ZSS on the tier list (even starting and Samus and switching right away is a big weakness).
Uhh, do you know what tier lists represent? They show how successful a character has been, or can be, in the current metagame. Samus cannot be that high because she isn't good, and can never come close to the characters near ZSS.
 

Tesh

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Its an opinion that isn't relevant to this discussion but.....I'm just letting you know I'm not trying to "pull zelda out of low tier" or something. I think Shelda is low tier anyway.

Well Ivysaur can't be mid tier because she isn't good and can never come close to the characters near squirtle.

The game FORCING you to do something has nothing to do with what your OPTIONS are. MK isn't good because he is FORCED to use tornado/shloop/dsmash/uair. He is good because he has good OPTIONS. Thats all I'm saying.
 

Kewkky

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The game FORCING you to do something has nothing to do with what your OPTIONS are. MK isn't good because he is FORCED to use tornado/shloop/dsmash/uair. He is good because he has good OPTIONS. Thats all I'm saying.
If the game forces you to do something, then YES it has something to do with what your options are! Unless you're saying that you can DACUS with Ivysaur just as well as with Squirtle, or kill with a sideB as Squirtle just as good as Charizard, your options do indeed change, and they change dramatically. I don't think anyone should disagree with me here.

Same thing if the game forces you to switch characters and you have no control over it, those characters count as one character because those are options you'll have to face because that's how the game is programmed to work. If the game doesn't force you to, then we can treat them as entirely different characters because we can choose to not use an option, or we can choose to use that other option instead, and the game won't interrupt you no matter which option you chose. They are different characters, and the only thing tying them together is a command that is completely under our control. Sooo, Zelda and Sheik count as different characters.

*What you're saying on behalf of PT is the same as telling someone to counterpick X character to Castle Siege's second transformation, and that it should count as a separate stage because you can choose to play on it or stall and avoid all contact until it's over. But whether or not you're fighting or not during that part, it's still Castle Siege, much like Pokemon Trainer counts as one character whether or not you want to use any of the 3 pokemon. This part is clear.
 

Judo777

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Just for clarification. Zelda is solo Zelda, Sheik is solo Sheik, Shelda is Sheik and Zelda used to optimum efficiency even if that means using one.

The reason Shelda and PT are different.

Sheik and Zelda are 2 characters that can be used solo the entire match without ever seeing the other. They have the option to switch, but are never forced to and have MU's where a switch is never recommended and MUs where it is. They can be essentially solo characters with -1 move (down B)

PT is similar in that they can change between pokemon. However they first of all can never lose a match without seeing all 3 pokemon because they are forced to switch in between stocks. The other and probably biggest (maybe equal valid) reason is the stamina they have. Separately Sheik and Zelda do not become any worse by never switching (in the sense that as individuals they don't lose anything by not switching, they simply remove certain options). However due to stamina if you play with one pokemon without switching the individual pokemon not only loses options like Sheik and Zelda but also become weaker AS an individual because their attack deteriorate. Pokemon trainer cannot be played solo not only due to forced game mechanics but also can't be played reasonably because not switching actually weakens each individual pokemon.

Zss and Samus might have been linked in the same way except its a 1 way transformation so its not a reciprocal relationship.
 

Spelt

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but you can transform in the middle of the match between zss and samus ... unless that's not what you're saying.
 

IsmaR

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You cannot transform from ZSS to Samus by normal/legal means. Even if you could, the taunt transformation takes so horribly long (and is difficult to pull off for some) that it is almost never a good idea to do it in an active fight. Shame, really. Producing armor pieces at will would be an interesting, if not rather useful gimmick. I would most definitely use both in a manner similar to Shelda/PT w.o stamina.
 

Tesh

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Taunt transform is bad because there is never a reason to start with power suit samus.
 

John12346

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there are 10 robs that placed in the money? wtf who are they
Bees, MeroKnight, Bundtcake, Vinnie, Stingers, t0mmy, KiraFlax, TeeVee, and Talon.

I accidentally counted you twice, Stingers. the true value of money placing R.O.B. users is 9 people, so yeah.
.
.
.
Also, the inputting taunt transformation isn't that hard, and can be done very handily after you've knocked the opponent off the stage.
 

-Mars-

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I think Shelda is low tier anyway.
LOL. Ftilt alone probably keeps Sheik out of low tier.

Sheik also doesn't have the glaring weaknesses that low tier characters have, in addition to having a good MU spread.

So no.

Get out more dawg.
 

Asa

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If the game forces you to do something, then YES it has something to do with what your options are! Unless you're saying that you can DACUS with Ivysaur just as well as with Squirtle, or kill with a sideB as Squirtle just as good as Charizard, your options do indeed change, and they change dramatically. I don't think anyone should disagree with me here.

Same thing if the game forces you to switch characters and you have no control over it, those characters count as one character because those are options you'll have to face because that's how the game is programmed to work. If the game doesn't force you to, then we can treat them as entirely different characters because we can choose to not use an option, or we can choose to use that other option instead, and the game won't interrupt you no matter which option you chose. They are different characters, and the only thing tying them together is a command that is completely under our control. Sooo, Zelda and Sheik count as different characters.

*What you're saying on behalf of PT is the same as telling someone to counterpick X character to Castle Siege's second transformation, and that it should count as a separate stage because you can choose to play on it or stall and avoid all contact until it's over. But whether or not you're fighting or not during that part, it's still Castle Siege, much like Pokemon Trainer counts as one character whether or not you want to use any of the 3 pokemon. This part is clear.
To be fair, squirtle's DACUS sucks.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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I don't play Samus and I can taunt transform into ZSS, because it's the same input I think for doing the easter egg conversations for the Starfox characters on Lylat.

It's not that hard to do.
 

John12346

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Transform Taunting requires you to mash Utaunt and Dtaunt alternatively and extremely quickly.

Codec calls on Shadow Moses Island, Lylat Cruise, and Corneria require one extremely fast tap of Dtaunt.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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Probably explains how I did both, lol.

But yeah, it's not that hard, if you can do one you can do the other. It's just a bit of timing and hitting it fast.
 

Tesh

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LOL. Ftilt alone probably keeps Sheik out of low tier.

Sheik also doesn't have the glaring weaknesses that low tier characters have, in addition to having a good MU spread.

So no.

Get out more dawg.
Ftilt doesn't seem to help any sheiks ever accomplish anything though. She still winds up losing to or going even with all the characters it REALLY *****. Otherwise its just a move that combos for some free 20-59 damage. EVERYONE can do that. Not to mention she can't kill unless its FD.

Playing Squirtle for 2 stocks and Charizard for 1 or being Yoshi is clearly better than playing as Sheikelda.

I can transform with Samus very easily. It still takes a long time to load (unless there is a ZSS already loaded) and unlike PT, she has a VERY long animation after she loads. PT is stuck for 20 frames, ZSS sits there for 60+ frames with her suit falling off.
 

IsmaR

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Somewhat harder to pull off in the middle of a serious match, but then again who would try it then anyway? I do it like nothing thanks to being used to 1 and 2 button spam.

Even then, still horrendously slow. The only exception is in teams/FFAs/the off chance you play Spamus dittos, and only if there is a Samus using the same color as you(i.e., on your team. IIRC, this applies to Shelda as well). If it was normally that quick, it'd be much better.
 

Tesh

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They have to be the same color? I was sure I'd done it in singles when I started Samus vs a ZSS. A color swap shouldn't take long to load. Loading all the character data is what takes time.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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Sheik's Ftilt lets her **** some Match's up by itself, when they say it keeps her out of low tier, among other things, they aren't kidding.

Even without it, she still has qualities better than low tiers.
 

Albert.

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Interesting to see people agreeing with me on MK's matchups. I could see characters' matchups with MK looking something like this IMO, similar to DDD's level of dominance but across the board:

A.
Snake: 40-60
Diddy: 40-60
Falco: 45-55 (with good ledge grab limits)
Wario: 40-60
Marth: 40-60
ICs: 35-65
B.
Olimar: 40-60
Pikachu: 40-60
DDD: 35-65
GaW: 35-65
Lucario: 40-60
ZSS: 40-60
C.
Toon Link: 30-70
Kirby: 35-65
Fox: 45-55 (ledge grab limit)
ROB: 35-65
Pit: 30-70
Peach: 35-65
DK: 30-70

Sorry for not using the new rating system, im not really familiar enough with it yet.
K here's my take on a bunch of your ratios. I'm posting these with absolutely no offense intended whatsoever, these are just my thoughts based on my experiences maining Meta.


A.
Snake: 40-60
Diddy: 45-55 (closer cause only like 3 MKs can handle ADHD/Gnes)
Falco: 45-55 (with good ledge grab limits)
Wario: 40-60
Marth: 45-55 (Grab release is insanely useful)
ICs: 35-65
B.
Olimar: 40-60
Pikachu: 40-60
DDD: 30-70 (MK Frame traps and nado ***** DDD too hard. He can also avoid dying until like 150 cause DDD Utilt is useless in this MU)
GaW: 40-60 (Watch Vinnie play)
Lucario: 35-65 (Having Lucario 40-60 makes it seem like he does as well as Olimar/Pika who clearly do better. Also, outspeeds.)
ZSS: 35-65 (same rationale. Also, Shield)
C.
Toon Link: 35-65 (Camping makes this a lot better for TL)
Kirby: 30-70 (Kirby shouldn't really get in VS good MKs. )
Fox: 45-55 (ledge grab limit)
ROB: 35-65
Pit: 35-65 (Pit's close up game isn't that bad)
Peach: 30-70 (Nado nullifies Peach, can't wait for the flaming to begin)
DK: 40-60 (You'd think this would be a blow out but it isn't, DK just kills too early. Its the same for G&W)

I think Oli/Pika might do better than 40-60, too.

JUST MY thoughts!
 

etecoon

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DK and wario get *****, how can you consider those 4:6 and have IC's or kirby ranked that way wtf

and marth 45:55? everyone overrates their main in that MU, it's half the problem where all of MK's MU's are ****ed up because so many people are of the mindset that their main does better than they actually do and that other characters do worse than they actually do, it's not just MK mains making the numbers look bad, I'd say it's mostly people that play other characters even

MK is overpowered! every character goes 3:7 against him except MINE!

really? which is it?
 

Shaya

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meh... Marth v MK actually may be pretty close. Spacing with MK is easier.... but a precise Marth can come out on top (dancing blade is sooooo op) + grab release gayness that is available.

MK does like 7:3 most of the cast though. Marth is definitely luckier than most people give him credit for. IMO he definitely has a better match up against MK than anyone below him in the tier list other than... Pikachu (maybe ICs and Fox).
 

etecoon

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he is more fortunate than many characters but I'd still give it 6:4, I'm not putting him in the same league as diddy and falco in that MU, I don't think many MK mains would consider marth to be as much a threat as those two characters and I think most of us have one or two others like pikachu, olimar, IC's, or fox that we might consider worse but we don't agree consistently on who
 

Yamitsuki

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yeah, Marth would have to be playing pretty well to make it look as good as diddy/falco :)
He simply has to avoid getting caught underneath MK. Any other situation on stage and marth can deal with MK. But its getting stuck in the air that kills him. What options does he have for getting back to the ground that MK cannot punish?
 

etecoon

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falco's situation is very similar, he does well against MK until he gets airborn/offstage
 

Shaya

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Why ROB is top tier, and ROB is better than Pit (duh).

In fact, I was just wondering why R.O.B. is in the very middle of the tiers. Before I get into what I mean, allow me to first put out there that I have been playing for years, and I have watched MANY videos of the tournament masters.

My brother and I found out, through years of play, literally EVERY advanced technique in the game, except the Glide Toss, which we stumbled upon, but wrote off as simply hilarious. I was surprised to find that all the wacky observations we have encountered and adapted are actually defined in the glossary in the sticky topic above! Three of the particularly surprising terms that I could not believe had been widely known and utilized were the Glancing Blow (I just thought I had a glitchy game) and that effect where recovering at the right time from attacks that sent you flying results in an upward boost if you jump out/air dodge/whatever early enough (I cannot remember what it was called in the sticky), and the Glide Toss.

Now, I have been using R.O.B. against my brother lately, and he cannot seem to beat me. We think we know why, and we think it puts R.O.B. at the top of the tiers. I will be brief. R.O.B. has his air neutral. We call it 'The Spin.' It has that special hitbox like a sword, hence it goes right through anything except an attack with that same type of hitbox. It does 17% max, is relatively fast executing, has basically instant recovery on a barrier cancel, and is quite massive, killing at rather low percentages.

If he misses, he can just do his Ajab if the opponent tries to retaliate, or shield/roll. I am telling you, R.O.B.f is a crazy meat mountain who crushes bones with many attacks doing 15+%, survives to insane damages thanks to his weight, and has ridiculous horizontal recovery (Double Jump, Up B, Aerial, ANOTHER Up B, ARE YOU SERIOUS, aerial).

Next, check his roll. It goes like half screen. It makes him rather fast, nearly eliminating his speed problem on the ground, and a great character when it comes to the defensive game. It pretty much eliminates the need for his Glide Toss, which, with R.O.B., who needs to do most of his attacking from hops, is pretty much useless already unless you are looking to smash attack. DACUS'ing, however, in my opinion, is also a bad idea, because, in the time and damage it takes you to actually land a smash, you could have just used The Flip and killed you opponent by then.

Even though he has to fight mostly in the air, 3 of his 4 air attacks are pretty fast, and are quite massive. A major advantage he has is that nearly all his attacks move the opponent considerably, and can topple him from 0%, so his opponent gets little to no counterattack opportunity.

The only explanation I can find for why he is low on the tiers is that no one has used him seriously. I think he really keeps up, if not tops, the top tier characters.

I really do not like to simply shoot my mouth, and I am not one who thinks it right to shower a character in encomium, and never actually prove anything. Is there online for this somewhere, or is that simply wishful thinking? If not, please do not yell at me and stuff until you at least check out The Flip. Goes right through projectiles, goes right through attacks, goes right through faces. Please just give R.O.B. another shot and tell me what you thnk.

Final Comment: People have a tendency to think that posts from newcomers to a board but veterans of its respective game are saying they are better than everyone else, regardles of what the post actually says. Please note that I did not say 'I am better than you' or 'R.O.B. is better than Meta Knight.' I said, essentially: 'R.O.B. seems to be great. These are his strengths. He may top Meta Knight. Check him out and see if you agree.' I will say, however, that I am a full master of R.O.B.

Please give R.O.B. a second look before responding so you know where I am coming from!

As I mentioned, I am a full master of R.O.B., so I obviously know about the lack of range on his air neutral. R.O.B. has a very strong ranged game because of both his Gyro Down Special Spinner and his Laser. By using these tools correctly, R.O.B. can force the opponent to approach, at which point he knocks them back with a fresh air neutral.

My brother has been switching from character to character to try and beat my R.O.B., but he just cannot seem to beat me.

I believe my R.O.B. [is infinity better than Pit]



You STILL don't understand. I believe you are under-estimating my abilities as a full master of R.O.B.
My brother and I have been practicing the powerful barrier cancel, which, when combine with The Spin makes R.O.B. nearly unbeatable, even against Pit.

I am one of the top [...] players, purely because of R.O.B.'s incredible offensive out-put. With many attacks that do 15+%, an amazing recovery, an impressive defensive and ranged game, not to mention... THE SPIN.

I am not saying that because I can beat my brother with R.O.B., he is one of the best characters. I really do not like to simply shoot my mouth, and I am not one who thinks it right to shower a character in encomium, and never actually prove anything. I'm just saying that you should not disagree with me until you at least check out The Flip. Goes right through projectiles, goes right through attacks, goes right through faces. Please just give R.O.B. another shot and tell me what you thnk.
Ground breaking information people!
 

Shaya

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Pay attention to 95% of my posts in this thread.

Its all,
cold,
hard,
facts

And -if- it wasn't obvious that the quote was for funzies, then, sorry.

Also I'm not 'trolling' as a moderator, I'm just supervising and helping DMG from time to time.
 

Orion*

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Am I the only one that wants to kick a puppy?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0ejnD3qIOo
@Spelt: Thaaaaaaats pretty racist, eskimos are people too.
I laughed anyway though :urg:
Oh My God ROFL. I'm really late but I love you for this anyway

Oh, yeah! I played Bizkit at SNES a while back in pools and beat him really badly (assuming it's the same guy).
SNES... really?

u guys who run this whole tier list business should post the new tier list after whobo 3
Cool

............ok im outta here
We agreed on something!

They're talking about King Dedede.
XD

I can't take you seriously with all of that chingchong clogging up your posts.
ROFLMAO

6 inches combined is a legit team name when both players are Asian
LOOOOOOL. So if we team can we call it 24 inches of Black and White?

Why would you bring up a set from 09 as if it means anything now? I also wouldn't call a pools set that you won 2-1 barely as "beat him really badly."
Yeah I kinda have to agree with you here... I was gonna say something anyway but he ignored your post ROFL

the mountain of salt that never fails to be produced whenever people discuss meta knight is hilarious
:reverse:

I forgot MK has a terrible mix up game.
Hardeeharhar

Interesting to see people agreeing with me on MK's matchups. I could see characters' matchups with MK looking something like this IMO, similar to DDD's level of dominance but across the board:

A.
Snake: 40-60
Diddy: 40-60 55/45
Falco: 45-55 (with good ledge grab limits)
Wario: 40-60
Marth: 40-60
ICs: 35-65 6:4
B.
Olimar: 40-60
Pikachu: 40-60
DDD: 35-65
GaW: 35-65
Lucario: 40-60 65:35
ZSS: 40-60 65:35
C.
Toon Link: 30-70 65:35
Kirby: 35-65
Fox: 45-55 (ledge grab limit)
ROB: 35-65 7:3
Pit: 30-70
Peach: 35-65
DK: 30-70 65:35

Sorry for not using the new rating system, im not really familiar enough with it yet.
imo
John, I meant get the data and update it along with your project. o_o


That data's supposed to point out how many different mainers of a character are the ones actually making money. It wouldn't be fair to say "350 MKs have placed in the money while 150 Snakes have placed in the money" when only 30 MK mainers are the ones placing and 10-20 are Snake mainers. All it would prove is that MK is the best character in the game, so he should obviously be getting the best placings and most representation. With the number of different mainers who have placed in the money, we can tell why MK has so many winnings compared to everyone else.


Let me do some quick crappy math:
The percentage of mainers successful doesn't look THAT amazing. If MK was dominating, the percentage would be much higher than that, wouldn't you agree? Yet we see that Falco, Snake and IC's are actually higher in this sense. There's a thicker concentration of successful mains in those 3 characters than there is in MK mainers.


I dislike MK as much as the next guy, but I can't really be unfair to the character if the data isn't absolutely conclusive. :/
**** post

that being said LOL at ice climbers, no one respects them anymore because no one good plays them(see: nefarious claiming they go 35:65 with MK) and they still carry what few people play them to success
I know it's really frustrating...
If MK camps them there's not much they can do IMO. Nado spam and smashville platform combo wrecks them too hard for them to have a decent matchup against him.
Its really not that simple
Nado spamming ICs doesn't work because their pivot grab beats it.
Nado is good against them, but spamming it is bad.
This is correct
everyone's pivot grab beats tornado.
True, but its really w/ ics, and they die rofl

Does Samus do better against Falco than ZSS? lol
If she could actually kill him why not
 
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Yeah, I've noticed that not being able to kill is a bit of a death sentence in Brawl unless you have a sick mix-up game like Sonic. Peach for instance might as well be low tier (well, low-mid) because no matter how good she us for the first 70%, she becomes less and less threatening as her opponent takes more damage instead of the other way around. This of course means she wasn't very threatening to begin with. :p

I've heard it said that Samus is not so bad until she has to kill something, and I'd tend to agree with that, but keep in mind that Falco is easily ZSS' worst match-up, I mean you have to do damage to kill.

Fun fact: did you know ZSS gets messed up by Sheik's ftilt chain just like Fox/Falco/Wolf, or would except she can just down-b out of it :p
 
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:zerosuitsamus: match-ups

This is just personal opinion, community opinions will probably differ slightly (the first half of the cast is mostly agreed upon though). I included a quick note where I think it's necessary. This list serves two purposes: to share my thoughts (because everyone cares about them, duhhhhh) and to try to convert my opinions into Newspeak. (lol 1984)


This is how I interpret the new system:

-4 Hard Counter/Unwinnable
-3 Counter
-2 Soft Counter
-1 Small Disadvantage
0
Even
+1
Small Advantage
+2 Soft Counter
+3 Counter
+4 Hard Counter/Unwinnable

:metaknight: -1
:snake: -2
:diddy: 0
(There's a ZSS in Texas who learned ZSS' infinite on Diddy Kong and claims it changes the match-up a lot; I didn't account for that here, though, since there's only one ZSS player even bothering with it right now.)
:falco: -3
:wario: 0
:marth: 0
:popo: +1
:olimar: +1
:pikachu2: -1
:dedede: +2
:gw:
0
:lucario: 0
:toonlink: +1
:kirby2: +3
:fox: -2
:rob: +2
(The dsmash infinite isn't really a factor in this match-up because it's hard to dsmash ROB at all, but ZSS beats him even without it.)
:pit: 0
:peach: -1
:dk2:
+2
:luigi2: +2
:wolf: -1
:sonic: +1
:ike: +2
:sheik: -1
:ness2: +2
:squirtle: -2
:ivysaur: +3
:charizard: +1
:yoshi2: 0
:lucas: +1
:mario2:
+1
:bowser2: +3
:falcon:
+2
:samus2:
+2
:jigglypuff: +3
:link2:+2
:zelda:
+2
:ganondorf:
+2
 
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