Official BBR Tier List v5

[John12346]

Hah, that's not hard to do. I finished the first two weeks in 20 minutes.

;p

So far, twice the amount of MK users placing in the money than there are Snake users(24 vs. 12). Diddy and Falco are at 5 users right now.

 

[Flayl]

Wtf are you talking about. Nobody gets grabbed unless they mess up.

herp a derp derp

 

[John12346]

Well, here's part of the data by Kewkky's request. I'm not a hundred percent sure what it stands for, but I am a hundred percent sure this is statistically significant in regards to whatever it's supposed to prove.

Spoiler

Didn't burn more than, say, 100 minutes on this. No sweat.

I'll go further in depth to answer Kewkky's question more thoroughly later, as I've also noted down the amount of cash each player has won so far. I just need to figure out a way to use that to answer Kewkky's question.

 

[Nefarious B]

Interesting to see people agreeing with me on MK's matchups. I could see characters' matchups with MK looking something like this IMO, similar to DDD's level of dominance but across the board:

A.
Snake: 40-60
Diddy: 40-60
Falco: 45-55 (with good ledge grab limits)
Wario: 40-60
Marth: 40-60
ICs: 35-65
B.
Olimar: 40-60
Pikachu: 40-60
DDD: 35-65
GaW: 35-65
Lucario: 40-60
ZSS: 40-60
C.
Toon Link: 30-70
Kirby: 35-65
Fox: 45-55 (ledge grab limit)
ROB: 35-65
Pit: 30-70
Peach: 35-65
DK: 30-70

Sorry for not using the new rating system, im not really familiar enough with it yet.

 

[Kewkky]

John, I meant get the data and update it along with your project. o_o


That data's supposed to point out how many different mainers of a character are the ones actually making money. It wouldn't be fair to say "350 MKs have placed in the money while 150 Snakes have placed in the money" when only 30 MK mainers are the ones placing and 10-20 are Snake mainers. All it would prove is that MK is the best character in the game, so he should obviously be getting the best placings and most representation. With the number of different mainers who have placed in the money, we can tell why MK has so many winnings compared to everyone else.


Let me do some quick crappy math:

:random: (Number of mainers who made money / Total character usage in tourneys) *100 = Percentage of mainers who are successful

82 / 388 *100 = 21.13% of total MKs used in tourneys have placed in the money.

33 / 149 *100 = 22.15% of total Snakes used in tourneys have placed in the money.

22 / 115 *100 = 19.13% of total Diddies used in tourneys have placed in the money.

27 / 96 *100 = 28.125% of total Falcos used in tourneys have placed in the money.

14 / 72 *100 = 19.44% of total Warios used in tourneys have placed in the money.

14 / 110 *100 = 12.73% of total Marths used in tourneys have placed in the money.

12 / 53 *100 = 22.64% of total ICs used in tourneys have placed in the money.

The percentage of mainers successful doesn't look THAT amazing. If MK was dominating, the percentage would be much higher than that, wouldn't you agree? Yet we see that Falco, Snake and IC's are actually higher in this sense. There's a thicker concentration of successful mains in those 3 characters than there is in MK mainers.


I dislike MK as much as the next guy, but I can't really be unfair to the character if the data isn't absolutely conclusive. :/

 

[Ripple]

and also to be fair, let's take out all occurences of outlier players and money

no M2K for MK
ally for snake or rather fatal now
dehf for falco
and so on

 

[John12346]

@ Kewkky

For some reason, that sounds a bit off to me.

I mean, it sounds really correct, but I get this feeling there's a formula better suited to answer this question than the one you're using. I'll keep looking into it, to be safe.

Also, I'm gonna update this monthly as well on Ripple's thread because it's a pain in the butt to generate the graphs and stuff in this case.

 

[Kewkky]

and also to be fair, let's take out all occurences of outlier players and money

no M2K for MK
ally for snake or rather fatal now
dehf for falco
and so on

@ Kewkky

For some reason, that sounds a bit off to me.

I mean, it sounds really correct, but I get this feeling there's a formula better suited to answer this question than the one you're using. I'll keep looking into it.

Also, I'm gonna update this monthly as well on Ripple's thread because it's a pain in the butt to generate the graphs and stuff in this case.

You guys can go at it however you see fit. If it turns out I'm wrong on the calculations in my post, I'll accept yours and your case will be one step closer to your goal. The more data the better, since you can't argue against data! And if you can manage to sway enough people, another legitimate MK discussion could take place. Remember that in the Final MK Ban Poll thread (I wasn't in by then) the BBR said that in the case that supporting evidence would be brought up that favors a ban on MK, the issue would be revived, but until that happens there will be no more discussions or polls.

 

[etecoon]

most tournament results only list character usage for top 8, you can't really accurately calculate those numbers

that being said LOL at ice climbers, no one respects them anymore because no one good plays them(see: nefarious claiming they go 35:65 with MK) and they still carry what few people play them to success

 

[Nidtendofreak]

and also to be fair, let's take out all occurences of outlier players and money

no M2K for MK
ally for snake or rather fatal now
dehf for falco
and so on

What if the character only has one person who has really showed up? That can really mess up data if multiple characters fall under that issue. You might have a whole much of characters with basically no data.

If a character places, their data should be recorded. No exceptions. Even outliners are a part of the metagame.

 

[John12346]

Also @ Kewkky

Well, first off, I didn't say your calculations were wrong, because they're not, but rather the interpretation might be off. But yeah, right now, if that interpretation is correct, then we don't have much more than "MK is overcentralizing," as our case.

I believe there's some other formula that's gotta show what's up, though.

What data do I have on hand right now...?
- Number of times each character has been used in tournament.
- Amount of cash each character has won in tournament.
- Amount of cash the users of each character have won in tournament.
- Amount of times each user of each character has placed in the money.
- Amount of cash each user of each character has won in tournament.

I'm gonna be up all night thinking on this one... T___ T

 

[Kewkky]

most tournament results only list character usage for top 8, you can't really accurately calculate those numbers

that being said LOL at ice climbers, no one respects them anymore because no one good plays them(see: someone claiming they go 35:65 with MK) and they still carry what few people play them to success

More like some tournament results. Nationals don't care about character usage below a certain point of course, but smaller ones do, and there's still people who win tournaments who go to locals and post the results in SWF believe it or not.

 

[Ghostbone]

@ Kewkky.
That formula just seems off to me.

You'd have to fine one that shows the total amount of money won rather than just whether they've won money.

For example that 21.13% of MK mains are winning 36.78% of cash at tournies.
The 28.13% of Falco mains are winning 5.16% of cash at tournies.

Unless I'm misunderstanding it >.>

 

[Life]

Yeah. Multiply everything by how much money they've won and MK still pulls ahead.

Basically, that would say "the average MK main makes more money than the average main of any other character". Which we all knew of course, but eh.

 

[John12346]

Oh right, Kewkky, now I remember! I learned this from Stat class last year.

When you're combining more than one data with each other to make a new data, the sample size needed to draw an accurate conclusion becomes like a hundred times more strict than the sample sizes needed to interpret one data alone. In other words, we should wait for more tournies to come in, because, if you notice, with your formula, Ganon is at 12.5% right now, which is obviously way too high.

(Either that, or Ganon should rise to mid tier. ^__ ^

Plus, what ghostbone said also sounds plausble, aka we should probably also be factoring money in some way to this formula as well.

Thoughts?

 

[Nefarious B]

that being said LOL at ice climbers, no one respects them anymore because no one good plays them(see: nefarious claiming they go 35:65 with MK) and they still carry what few people play them to success

If MK camps them there's not much they can do IMO. Nado spam and smashville platform combo wrecks them too hard for them to have a decent matchup against him.

 

[Kewkky]

@ Kewkky.
That formula just seems off to me.

You'd have to fine one that shows the total amount of money won rather than just whether they've won money.

For example that 21.13% of MK mains are winning 36.78% of cash at tournies.
The 28.13% of Falco mains are winning 5.16% of cash at tournies.

Unless I'm misunderstanding it >.>

Well, think about it this way:

*Large-scale tourneys have a bigger cash prize.

*Less mainers means less representation in large-scale tourneys.

*More mainers means more chances of that character winning cash prizes.

*More players for a character tends to bring more top players of that character into the competitive scene.

*The better the character is, the higher chance he has of being successful.


Add these all together and you get this:


*MK is the best character in the game and has the most mainers out of the whole cast, which means we have lots of higher-leveled MK players. Top MK players tend to win tournaments more often than not because of this.


As a side note, I'm not saying I am, but there's always the chance that I might be wrong in anything I've said so far. If you guys find out anything wrong I've said, feel free to point it out.

Oh right, Kewkky, now I remember! I learned this from Stat class last year.

When you're combining more than one data with each other to make a new data, the sample size needed to draw an accurate conclusion becomes like a hundred times more strict than the sample sizes needed to interpret one data alone. In other words, we should wait for more tournies to come in, because, if you notice, with your formula, Ganon is at 12.5% right now, which is obviously way too high.

(Either that, or Ganon should rise to mid tier. ^__ ^

Plus, what ghostbone said also sounds plausble, aka we should probably also be factoring money in some way to this formula as well.

Thoughts?

The only thing I tried to say with my small calculation was "if MK was indeed dominating too much, then we'd have a higher percentage of MK players being successful in tourneys. However, so far all we have is an average ratio of tourney-placing:tourney-attending MKs". It's not enough to prove whether a character is underrated or overrated, but it is enough to point out that a character isn't overcentralizing the metagame due to being too good, it's just another case of a character who is represented too much and thus has more top players than other characters.

EDIT: Oh, and about Ganondorf's ratio... How often have Ganondorf players placed in the money (serious question)? To be honest, the lower a character is in the tier list, the higher the chances are that their placings are due to an outlier player, or a non-recurring scenario (which is also an outlier). If that's the case, then Ganondorf's placing should be deflated by removing the outlier (if there's 999 instances of non-complex data proving that X=100, and there's 1 single instance of non-complex data proving that X=1000, then that single instance is an outlier and should be removed, no?).

 

[etecoon]

If MK camps them there's not much they can do IMO. Nado spam and smashville platform combo wrecks them too hard for them to have a decent matchup against him.

MK camping requires him to acquire a lead, which means taking risks that can get him grabbed or get hit by their other power attacks. MK definitely wins the MU, don't get me wrong, but it's no where near that bad

and nado spam? really?

IMO if you want to pick an A tier character that MK 35:65's, it's wario.

 

[Tesh]

I just wanted to comment on some things:
Difference between PT and Sheik/Zelda/Sheilda:

PT: Each stock gone = mandatory character change, so you use all 3 pokemon in a match. Due to the long transform times, even if you transform as soon as you respawn, the pokemon you don't want to use already did something in the match, which was use up your invincibility frames, so essentially you HAVE to use all 3 no matter what. Hence only PT being in the tier list.

Sheik and Zelda: You can choose either at the start of a match, before the match starts, and you can end the match without even catching a glimpse of the other character. Each one has a different moveset, strategy, weakness and strength, specific character traits like fall speed and airdodge lengths, so much so that they can actually be treated as separate characters. The option to transform into the other is there, but since you CAN go solo with either, I think it's a good idea to point out just how well you could do in a competitive setting if you decide on using only one of those two characters in every single match.

Sheilda: This one may be a bit iffy, but it's essentially the combined use of both characters. In theory, what it's supposed to signify is using Sheik or Zelda whenever it would benefit you the most. Enemy is at 120%? Go Zelda and spam usmash. Enemy is a heavy character? Go Sheik and spam ftilt. It depends on the situation and not all people would use the characters for the same scenario, but it just means combined use of Zelda/Sheik. If you want to you can just ignore that character in the tier list, since it's a theoretical placing.

Also, you mentioned something about Solo Popo: You're forced to use him as a consequence for losing Nana while playing Ice Climbers. He's a part of the character and you can't avoid choosing ICs and not seeing him in every match, so he is still considered IC's. Same thing with Solo Olimar (in case anyone would want to bring HIM up).

Just to respond to this, Pokemon switching being MANDATORY is a weakness, not a strength. But both are relevant to tier placing. Its not mandatory to use ANY of your moves. As I stated before I could go Olimar and not pluck any pikmin ever, but you won't add "no pikmin pulling olimar" to low tier will you?

Basically I'm just saying characters shouldn't be placed on a tier list based on a playstyle. Alot of characters could be alot lower if they just "never used a certain move".

 

[John12346]

The only thing I tried to say with my small calculation was "if MK was indeed dominating too much, then we'd have a higher percentage of MK players being successful in tourneys. However, so far all we have is an average ratio of tourney-placing:tourney-attending MKs". It's not enough to prove whether a character is underrated or overrated, but it is enough to point out that a character isn't overcentralizing the metagame due to being too good, it's just another case of a character who is represented too much and thus has more top players than other characters.

I understand what you're saying, and in that sense, you're absolutely right, based on the current data. I just think that that section of the data still needs some more time to develop, is all.

Think about it like this. You have a 6 sided die, right? Now, obviously if we wanted to collect data from 1-6 by throwing one die, we'd have to throw it quite a few times. How about 100? It'd come out about even for all 6 numbers(give or take due to standard deviation).

But let's say we wanted to throw a 6 sided die and spin a 7 sided spinner, and collect combinations from 2-13 in that fashion? With 42 different outcomes, we would obviously want to take more than 100 turns on this setup. If we assume that, in the previous setup, 100 rolls of the die gave us an absolutely perfect probability spread, then we would want to use this setup 700 times or something to start getting a perfect probability spread.

The same works with our tournament level data. We can probably start interpreting singular data by the end of February, but combining data via formula might have to wait longer than that, perhaps by June's end or something.

Statistics are annoying sometimes. >.<;

 

[Kewkky]

Just to respond to this, Pokemon switching being MANDATORY is a weakness, not a strength. But both are relevant to tier placing. Its not mandatory to use ANY of your moves. As I stated before I could go Olimar and not pluck any pikmin ever, but you won't add "no pikmin pulling olimar" to low tier will you?

Basically I'm just saying characters shouldn't be placed on a tier list based on a playstyle. Alot of characters could be alot lower if they just "never used a certain move".

Weakness or strength, the fact is that you're bringing out each character against your own will during a match. You can't play Charizard a whole match without ever seeing Squirtle or Ivysaur, at some point during the match you're forced to switch to those characters. The character itself has a fatigue effect where it forces you to witch pokemon or else your current character is drastically weakened, which further points out that PT was made for the player to use 3 characters in conjunction, not to use whichever he wished during the whole match. Zelda and Sheik can be used completely independently from each other, but they can also be used in conjunction. Samus and ZSS can be used separately, but you can also use both of them in a single match (although one-way). Ice Climbers are the same as PT, where the opponent has the choice of weakening your character choice by taking care of your helper then going for you, however it's still the same character and you can't choose to use Solo Popo at will.

I understand what you're saying, and in that sense, you're absolutely right, based on the current data. I just think that that section of the data still needs some more time to develop, is all.

Think about it like this. You have a 6 sided die, right? Now, obviously if we wanted to collect data from 1-6 by throwing one die, we'd have to throw it quite a few times. How about 100? It'd come out about even for all 6 numbers(give or take due to standard deviation).

But let's say we wanted to throw a 6 sided die and spin a 7 sided spinner, and collect combinations from 2-13 in that fashion? With 42 different outcomes, we would obviously want to take more than 100 turns on this setup. If we assume that, in the previous setup, 100 rolls of the die gave us an absolutely perfect probability spread, then we would want to use this setup 700 times or something to start getting a perfect probability spread.

The same works with our tournament level data. We can probably start interpreting singular data by the end of February, but combining data via formula might have to wait longer than that, perhaps by June's end or something.

Statistics are annoying sometimes. >.<;

Oh no, don't worry, I understand perfectly. I'm a proud math major at college so math and statistics is in my blood. Remember that I brought all of this up because you said something that activated my smasher senses, and that one something was:

Isn't... isn't it possible that new data that has been collected may change the cycle? Think about the thread Ripple and I have been working on, as well as Ankoku's thread from 2010, your MU chart(which may or may not change things), and the lack of any videos showing MK trying to plank and getting dead for trying it. Wouldn't that alone break some key aspects of this chain off the cycle entirely or something?

I mean, I understand what you're saying; I was there for the ban arguments and the MK discussion thread, and they do have a tendency to degenerate into flame wars essentially. But I get the feeling a lot of this hostility comes from the anti-ban side, when half of their posts are either some kind of ad hominem or "lol mk isnt going to get banned stop trying" in an attempt to stagnate discussion.

I can also understand why the mods and BBR to some extent would also want to avoid this topic being discussed publicly, because of the aforementioned reasons in the previous paragraph, but I get this feeling a discussion is becoming more and more warranted, because of the aforementioned reasons in the first paragraph.

And therein lies the problem... bring up a topic about a problem and see a roaring ring of fire rise up out of it, or let the problem continue to be a problem and avoid the flames?

So, we brought up the topic, and now you found out yourself that the data is still too young to be used to fuel another MK debate. If that section still needs to develop data, then wouldn't it be safe to assume that every section of the data needs more development before it being conclusive?

 

[Chuee]

Nado spamming ICs doesn't work because their pivot grab beats it.
Nado is good against them, but spamming it is bad.

 

[John12346]

Oh no, don't worry, I understand perfectly. I'm a proud math major at college so math and statistics is in my blood. Remember that I brought all of this up because you said something that activated my smasher senses, and that one something was:

So, we brought up the topic, and now you found out yourself that the data is still too young to be used to fuel another MK debate. If that section still needs to develop data, then wouldn't it be safe to assume that every section of the data needs more development before it being conclusive?

Ack! Looks like you've one upped me!

But yes, I will continue to collect the data, because I too have an affinity for stats and numbers.

 

[Reyney]

IMO the reason why MK is not dominating tourneys (which he should), is because most people are just too proud to pick the obviously best character in the game to **** with him.

I say that, because i hate to see those "so how is MK broken, if he is not dominating? results or it never happend!"
comments. (mostly by mk users)

gosh people just doesnt want to go the easy way and pick that ****ty character with the most stupid moveset and design in brawl.

get over it anti-bans.
MK is broken, and if there'd exist a world without emotions like proud,allegiance,shame and so on,
you would see him dominating the results tremendously.

 

[Spelt]

everyone's pivot grab beats tornado.

 

[etecoon]

if there were no pride then the best character would dominate in every game, "if everyone used MK then MK would be dominating!" what the **** kind of logic is that LOL

 

[Kewkky]

IMO the reason why MK is not dominating tourneys (which he should), is because most people are just too proud to pick the obviously best character in the game to **** with him.

I say that, because i hate to see those "so how is MK broken, if he is not dominating? results or it never happend!"
comments. (mostly by mk users)

gosh people just doesnt want to go the easy way and pick that ****ty character with the most stupid moveset and design in brawl.

get over it anti-bans.
MK is broken, and if there'd exist a world without emotions like proud,allegiance,shame and so on,
you would see him dominating the results tremendously.

You know what I just read?

"If everyone would agree to not enjoy the game however they want and instead use the same character for some random reason, then we could prove that MK is overcentralizing and ban him".

You want people to stop enjoying the game so that your wish comes true? Sorry, but wishes alone won't do anything. If you want to make a big decision like banning a character, you need to prove to us that it's worth banning him. Personal experiences and opinions aside, what we want is something absolute.

EDIT: And what etecoon says is true. If we follow your advice, EVERY fighting game would ban every character because as one gets banned, the next best character will be the most played, and it will overcentralize as well so it will get banned too, then they flock to the 3rd best, so on and so forth...

 

[Chuee]

everyone's pivot grab beats tornado.

ICs are the only that can take a whole stock off MK from a grab though.

 

[Spelt]

if there were no pride then the best character would dominate in every game, "if everyone used MK then MK would be dominating!" what the **** kind of logic is that LOL

unsuccessful troll etc. etc.

 

[Life]

ICs are the only that can take a whole stock off MK from a grab though.

Pika comes close. /nitpicking

 

[Tesh]

Weakness or strength, the fact is that you're bringing out each character against your own will during a match. You can't play Charizard a whole match without ever seeing Squirtle or Ivysaur, at some point during the match you're forced to switch to those characters. The character itself has a fatigue effect where it forces you to witch pokemon or else your current character is drastically weakened, which further points out that PT was made for the player to use 3 characters in conjunction, not to use whichever he wished during the whole match. Zelda and Sheik can be used completely independently from each other, but they can also be used in conjunction. Samus and ZSS can be used separately, but you can also use both of them in a single match (although one-way). Ice Climbers are the same as PT, where the opponent has the choice of weakening your character choice by taking care of your helper then going for you, however it's still the same character and you can't choose to use Solo Popo at will.


Oh no, don't worry, I understand perfectly. I'm a proud math major at college so math and statistics is in my blood. Remember that I brought all of this up because you said something that activated my smasher senses, and that one something was:

So, we brought up the topic, and now you found out yourself that the data is still too young to be used to fuel another MK debate. If that section still needs to develop data, then wouldn't it be safe to assume that every section of the data needs more development before it being conclusive?

My point isnt about stuff being mandatory. The fact that Zelda has the CHOICE of those options is the same as Metaknight having the CHOICE to use tornado.

 

[Ripple]

I guess we could compare zelda/sheik to ammy from MvC now

 

[Nefarious B]

MK camping requires him to acquire a lead, which means taking risks that can get him grabbed or get hit by their other power attacks. MK definitely wins the MU, don't get me wrong, but it's no where near that bad

and nado spam? really?

IMO if you want to pick an A tier character that MK 35:65's, it's wario.

Nado seems like it'd be perfectly good at starting juggle strings in this matchup just like most others, except better because
A. Nado has twice the chance of poking, since you only need one poke to start a juggle
B. The reward for landing the nado is much greater than in other matchups because of how helpless nana is to MK's gimps

I understand that if you only poke nana and aren't able to carry her far enough away before nado lands, that popo can punish. I think that with the SV plat though this problem is mostly neutralized though since it would be at worst a uair probabaly.

Even if ICs were 40-60 my point would still stand that you can reasonably say MK soft counters almost the entire cast.

 

[Kewkky]

My point isnt about stuff being mandatory. The fact that Zelda has the CHOICE of those options is the same as Metaknight having the CHOICE to use tornado.

You DON'T have a choice though, those examples don't compare. You HAVE the choice to not press B the entire match as MK, but you DON'T have a choice when your current pokemon dies, you're FORCED to switch into the next character. Saying those examples are the same is like saying that during specific times the game will autopress your B button for you as MK, or you will auto-change between Zelda and Sheik, or the game will autokill Nana when playing as IC's. It just doesn't work that way. PT as a character uses all 3 pokemon, that's the character. You can't choose to play with Squirtle the entire match, die and be respawned as Squirtle again, but you CAN not press the B button during the entire match, die and continue NOT pressing the B button.

Plus, deciding on whether or not to press the B button doesn't make MK an entirely different character or change his moveset, MK is still MK. You're just handicapping yourself by not fighting with one of his good moves. When a boxer fights with only one arm, is he still considered a boxer? Yes he is, he's just handicapping himself is all, the boxer is still a boxer. Same as MK, but NOT the same as PT. PT can't choose to only throw out Squirtle the entire match, you HAVE to cycle through all 3 pokemon no matter what.

 

[Tesh]

I guess we could compare zelda/sheik to ammy from MvC now

I know it seems like a silly point that I'm trying to make. I know Zelda is simply ranked lower because of how MUCH she sucks compared to Sheik, and her tier standing allows her to be in low tier events a whatnot.

But consider this..

Is Zelda allowed to use Down B in a low tier tournament? If the answer is no, then perhaps other characters would qualify for low tier if they don't use a certain move.

Then again MK also is allowed to be legal in most events for not using his Down B to its full potential.

Edit: thats exactly my point kewkky, Pokemon Trainer has no choice, which is a weakness that is relevant to its tier placement. Zelda having a CHOICE and thus more OPTIONS makes her a better character. CHOOSING not to use options that are available to you does NOT make your character worse. By that logic my Sonic should be allowed in low tier tournaments because I don't CHOOSE my best options.

 

[Chuee]

I guess we could compare zelda/sheik to ammy from MvC now

Ehhh, not really.
Ammy is more so like Kirby's inhale ability. zelda/sheik are completely different characters with different movesets each. Ammy's weapons only change her heavy attacks and some of her special moves.
/nitpicking
also at whoever said pika comes close.
50% is not even close to taking a stock off.

 

[Kewkky]

Then again MK also is allowed to be legal in most events for not using his Down B to its full potential.

There's nothing wrong with banning a tactic that is far too good and still allowing the character to be used in tourneys. Mk's downB isn't what we're restricting, we're restricting the use of his broken glitch. It's not even a part of the game or the character, it's just faulty programming that turned out to be far too useful to let it rampage.

Edit: thats exactly my point kewkky, Pokemon Trainer has no choice, which is a weakness that is relevant to its tier placement. Zelda having a CHOICE and thus more OPTIONS makes her a better character. CHOOSING not to use options that are available to you does NOT make your character worse. By that logic my Sonic should be allowed in low tier tournaments because I don't CHOOSE my best options.

Soooo, what's your goal? You want Zelda and Sheik to be out of the tier list, or you want everyone in the game to be allowed in low tiers? What about Samus, since she has the option of changing into a high tier character, what happens to her?

There's a difference between Zelda and Sheik's case, and your Sonic because you're not choosing your best options. The game recognizes Sheik and Zelda as separate characters, they have their own victory poses, battle portraits, different movesets, you can choose them in the character selection screen as separate characters, and the game doesn't force you to transform between them. However, the game doesn't discern your limited Sonic from a full-power Sonic. Same with a MK that doesn't use tornado... And PT is still forced to transform whenever he dies.

 

[Life]

/nitpicking
also at whoever said pika comes close.
50% is not even close to taking a stock off.

CG-buffer run uair-footstool-QAL-jablock-kill move.

0%-52% + regrab (dthrow x7 > grab)
another dthrow, to set up the combo (total 56%)
buffer run uair (6%, total 62%)
footstool into QAL (???)
Jablock (starts at around 70%)
T2 (kills MK at... I'm not sure of this one TBH, maybe ~100%? possibly less)

Only problems are if they SDI the QAL to the ledge (which means this doesn't work near ledges), and the possibility that T2 won't kill (depends on how long the jab lock lasts--I'm pretty sure you can QA to the other side of them and start jablocking in the other direction, in which case this is no longer a problem).

I call that close.

I'm not a Pika main, if someone could confirm this it would be most gracious.

 

[Chuee]

I've heard you can SDI out of the uair.

 

[etecoon]

Nado seems like it'd be perfectly good at starting juggle strings in this matchup just like most others, except better because
A. Nado has twice the chance of poking, since you only need one poke to start a juggle
B. The reward for landing the nado is much greater than in other matchups because of how helpless nana is to MK's gimps

I understand that if you only poke nana and aren't able to carry her far enough away before nado lands, that popo can punish. I think that with the SV plat though this problem is mostly neutralized though since it would be at worst a uair probabaly.

Even if ICs were 40-60 my point would still stand that you can reasonably say MK soft counters almost the entire cast.

poke assumes they're shielding it all the time, they have other defenses. and SV is a very effective CP but it's just that, a CP, it does not dictate the entirety of the set and no IC player with a brain is starting the set there

MK does 6:4(er...+1?) most of the cast I agree, I just take issue with this one MU, IC's are very underrated because they have few decent players IMO. I disagree with some of your other numbers too but they have no relevance to what I was saying, which is more about ice climbers than MK