Official BBR Tier List v5

[Orion*]

Metaknight is def a -2...

also,

LOL lets go for BPC placing 3rd and Gheb placing 7th at some local. (Not that it really matters but I felt like posting it)

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Hey I lost to LP and Ravenlord. That could've happened to even Staco

 

[Albert.]

Etecoon why are you coming at me like that brah?

I wasn't over valuing my main's mu vs mk... I don't main marth lol

Orion I like your changes! They were similar to mine.

EDIT: @ Gheb then who did BPC have to beat to place higher?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Lucario has a 4:6 with MK.

If you guys want a 35:65 on Lucario, you guys should be saying Snake over all other characters you could bring up.

 

[Orion*]

Etecoon why are you coming at me like that brah?

I wasn't over valuing my main's mu vs mk... I don't main marth lol

Orion I like your changes! They were similar to mine.

EDIT: @ Gheb then who did BPC have to beat to place higher?

they lost to the same people i think

the seeding was messed up iirc


edit: red ryu i dont know what youre saying tbh snake is irrelevant in this discussion or what you typed isnt clear to me

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Snake is arguably worse than his other bad Mus, MK is on par with being as bad as King DDD for Lucario which I think is a 4:6.

The only character I think any Lucario would consider worse than a 4:6 is Snake. If I saw Procarios considering Snake as a -3, I think that says something.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

@ Gheb then who did BPC have to beat to place higher?

they lost to the same people i think

the seeding was messed up iirc

He beat a so-so IC player first. Then he beat the Kirby player I beat in pools in WSF. He lost to LP and SiC and both are legit players so I'm not saying he didn't deserve a good placing at the tournament. But he was lucky to place THAT high ... out of the 4 best players at the tourney he had to play the weakest and it was the Kirby / MK match-up which was drastically in his favor ... and he only had to play him because SiC lost to that Kirby player the round before [which was a seeding error on my part].

I admit my seeding was poor, mainly because I didn't know about how good the german entrants were. Some pools were notably stronger than others.

 

[Orion*]

Snake is arguably worse than his other bad Mus, MK is on par with being as bad as King DDD for Lucario which I think is a 4:6.

The only character I think any Lucario would consider worse than a 4:6 is Snake. If I saw Procarios considering Snake as a -3, I think that says something.

I dont mind ddd being 65:35 either

GR usmash is pretty homo - the mu's only gotten worse as the metagame continues lol

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

It is homo, DDD's don't get it off when it matters, kill %.

Even then, Lucario's should play like how Junebug does, camp and run, when you do you get grabbed less. The issues in the Match-up are the CG, it is the only reason it's that bad of a MU.

Otherwise DDD suffers in ways simular to DK where his best GTFO me move in the air is his bair, and Lucario can cover the other aerials when getting him in the air.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Bees, MeroKnight, Bundtcake, Vinnie, Stingers, t0mmy, KiraFlax, TeeVee, and Talon.

I accidentally counted you twice, Stingers. the true value of money placing R.O.B. users is 9 people, so yeah.
.
.
.
Also, the inputting taunt transformation isn't that hard, and can be done very handily after you've knocked the opponent off the stage.

Lada. He's ranked #3 in Utah using solo rob and just placed 2nd in tourney yesterday only losing to X.

 

[Orion*]

The cg is still in the mu though, so it doesn't really matter lol. And despite the ddd's you play not potentially getting it 100% of the time, doesnt mean the rest of the world will. You have to assume both people are playing properly in this sort of stuff.

Also, DDD is a LOT hard to juggle than DK (although when he has punch there is that "fear" of messing up).

D3 has inhale, a great fast fall to **** option and a good dair, ntm multiple jumps to help escape juggles, all of which dk doesnt have.

 

[Z'zgashi]

doesnt d3 have the best fast fall?

 

[Tesh]

Yea he does fall really fast. Which really helps getting out of a juggle. Fast Fallling a bair or airdodge is like having a lagless dive attack to get out of juggles.

Assuming you aren't dealing with an overpowered massive priority massive hitbox, super mobile batball.

 

[Steam]

IMO Snake and D3 are of equal difficulty and are both noticibly harder than MK IMO.

but of course I switch characters for MKs CP. If I had to use Lucario for MKs CP, it would be of equal difficulty as Snake and D3 or harder.

so I just contradicted myself. woo.

since MK definitely isn't like a 45-55 on neutrals. I'd have to say all 3 are 35-65 lol. But definitely a soft 35-65 and nowhere near 30-70

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

The cg is still in the mu though, so it doesn't really matter lol. And despite the ddd's you play not potentially getting it 100% of the time, doesnt mean the rest of the world will. You have to assume both people are playing properly in this sort of stuff.

Also, DDD is a LOT hard to juggle than DK (although when he has punch there is that "fear" of messing up).

D3 has inhale, a great fast fall to **** option and a good dair, ntm multiple jumps to help escape juggles, all of which dk doesnt have.

Who said anything about ones I've played? I'm talking about ones others have played, aka Junebug and co.

I'm assuming they are using it and know how to, they still aren't getting it off when they need to.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Orion play NR

 

[phi1ny3]

I dont mind ddd being 65:35 either

GR usmash is pretty homo - the mu's only gotten worse as the metagame continues lol

You wanna know what's really sad? Apparently Michael Hey found GR-> usmash like a year or two before Luxor did, it just never got coverage lol.
Frankly I'm just glad it isn't GR -> utilt, that would kill way earlier. D3 is still ridiculously easy to juggle, though admittedly not as easy as DK, it matters little when you get a hit confirm w/ fair (if you see Junebug v. Coney vids, you see Junebug getting 0-60% stuff on him rofl)

The other problem w/ D3 is stage dependency. I wouldn't mind fighting him if the worst stage I had to deal with was Frigate but... Rainbow and Delphino are ridiculous. All about winning match 1, then again that goes for a lot of chars.

Snake is just ridiculous. Zucco apparently says it's okay, but I still haven't a clue as to how to beat this char more reliably w/ Lucario. 2 ftilts = 1 full FD CG w/ D3 pretty much lol. It's also harder to get access to AS w/ this MU b/c of grenades, and AS is sooooooooo useful against snake in many ways.

I think Luc v. MK is 40:60 but only on neutrals/fairly conservative CPs lol.

 

[Yikarur]

but it's dthrow upsmash D: !

 

[Spelt]

-2

wait ... what? fox soft counters zss?

 

[Tesh]

Dsmash is completely impossible to land. Nothing in ZSS moveset can possible lead into it. No one ever gets hit by Dsmash. Especially characters with horrible aerial mobility.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

wait ... what? fox soft counters zss?

Yes.

The dsmash chain is only ever a factor if the fox player isn't paying attention and juggling fox is pretty hard, plus he's stupid fast, and zss gets usmashed when her spacing moves are ps'd lol.

Granted fox gets dsmashed if usmash is ever shielded.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

SNES... really?

That was -ages- ago, but, yeah. Unless there's another Bizkit who plays Snake, I totally three-stocked him in one of the two games, and the other wasn't much closer.

 

[Nefarious B]

Yes.

The dsmash chain is only ever a factor if the fox player isn't paying attention and juggling fox is pretty hard, plus he's stupid fast, and zss gets usmashed when her spacing moves are ps'd lol.

Granted fox gets dsmashed if usmash is ever shielded.

She can crouch lasers so she's never forced to approach with a lead, which is great because Fox's approaches are very high risk in this matchup. Suitpieces make lasering at the start of the match really dangerous for fox.

Fox is weird because you have to play him horizontally rather than vertically, which is very unintuitive for ZSS. She has some good tools for doing so though, dash locks in particular are rapppe against all the spacies, and not very difficult to land.

while the dsmash isn't easy to land, it's not impossible. The most common time would probably be fox missing a shield grab attempt on a nair/bair. Shield grabs are pretty unsafe for Fox for this reason, which limits his OOS options somewhat and helps with her pressure game.

She does have a pretty difficult time approaching him though if she has to, and Fox is really good at keeping her off balance when he has momentum.

I duno I'd probably put it at +1 Fox, but +2 wouldn't be that hard to imagine. I want to play Trevonte again now that we've both improved.

 

[Tesh]

I thought everyone knew how to shoot low lasers by now....

 

[Orion*]

Who said anything about ones I've played? I'm talking about ones others have played, aka Junebug and co.

I'm assuming they are using it and know how to, they still aren't getting it off when they need to.

Way to ignore any of the other points, you know. The ones that are actually important and explain in detail why your comparison of D3 and DK is very wrong LOL.

Coney is not a technical player. So that's not the best example...

Also- even so you need to assume people are abusing the mu optimally.

Orion play NR

I want to, but I really don't see me winning or losing changing my views on the mu. If he beat me it would simply be because he just outskilled me lol. Cable beat me with DK last summer, doesn't mean that mu isn't Awful.

That was -ages- ago, but, yeah. Unless there's another Bizkit who plays Snake, I totally three-stocked him in one of the two games, and the other wasn't much closer.

I know but I'm trying to say that's madddddddd long ago. Like idk if I was even a ranked player back then rofl. Whatever I won't john for him it's just stupid

 

[Nefarious B]

I thought everyone knew how to shoot low lasers by now....

Sorry I meant crawl, even standing lasers won't hit a crawling ZSS

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Way to ignore any of the other points, you know. The ones that are actually important and explain in detail why your comparison of D3 and DK is very wrong LOL.

Coney is not a technical player. So that's not the best example...

Also- even so you need to assume people are abusing the mu optimally.

I am assuming that they are abusing what they can.

I am saying that in the situation Lucario is gonna risk a Bair or grab depending on his %, position, and stage.

Which is the point, Lucario is going to figure out which situation puts him at less risk and then figure out which is better for the given situation or even what is worth risking.

Also I said similar, not that they were the same, juggling DK is easier, but doing it to DDD is simular in what you have to do it's just not as easy or exactly the same.

 

[Conviction]

I've never had problems with the suit pieces? I thought it would be better if ZSS got rid of them instead of trying to challenge Fox with them.

 

[Tesh]

Sorry I meant crawl, even standing lasers won't hit a crawling ZSS

Just off the stage, jump back onto the stage, shoot a rising laser at ground level low enough to hit crouching targets. Rinse and repeat until she approaches.

 

[Life]

Just off the stage, jump back onto the stage, shoot a rising laser at ground level low enough to hit crouching targets. Rinse and repeat until she approaches.

Too slow. She can jump.

 

[Technodeath]

So could everyone falling for RAIN/Falco tactics. But they didn't, did they?

 

[Nefarious B]

I've never had problems with the suit pieces? I thought it would be better if ZSS got rid of them instead of trying to challenge Fox with them.

What about Fox makes you think she should throw them away?

So could everyone falling for RAIN/Falco tactics. But they didn't, did they?

They should have? (Unless it's Snake lol)

To be fair, RAIN lasers are very good for Falco at stopping crouching ZSS because if she jumps he can IAP and **** with her landing. Fox's phantasm isn't fast enough to do that.

I hope Foxs start trying to RAIN laser me lol, if I see a Fox going off the ledge I'm not just gonna sit there, I'm gonna run over and side b/grab/DA him for it, not like his lasers are going to stop me, and once he starts lasering he's committed.

 

[Conviction]

Reflector stuff and Fox's JC Item Toss.

 

[Tesh]

Why would you jump over "RAIN" lasers. Now you are in the air and he can just keep shooting you at range.

 

[Orion*]

I am assuming that they are abusing what they can.

What you say now.

It is homo, DDD's don't get it off when it matters, kill %.

What you said.

I am saying that in the situation Lucario is gonna risk a Bair or grab depending on his %, position, and stage.

Rinse

Otherwise DDD suffers in ways simular to DK where his best GTFO me move in the air is his bair, and Lucario can cover the other aerials when getting him in the air.

Repeat

Which is the point, Lucario is going to figure out which situation puts him at less risk and then figure out which is better for the given situation or even what is worth risking.

The reason the mu sucks is because you are always at risk. If you get grabbed, no matter what at WORST you are losing a potential stock from getting gimped, by being thrown off stage. But you can also get usmashed, or CGed across the stage. Risk reward ratio for you is GARBAGE.

Also I said similar, not that they were the same, juggling DK is easier, but doing it to DDD is simular in what you have to do it's just not as easy or exactly the same.

Its really not similar at all. Otherwise any character with a good bair we might as well throw in there.

Wolf? Juggle that mug like DK.
Mario? Yeah man just think of Donkey Kong
What about snake? Same thing!
Even kirby!?!? YUUURP

Either

A. You don't want to admit you're wrong (it's cool)
or
B. You dont realize how ******** you sound. (it's similar in what you have to do, LOL you're juggling someone. you want to keep them in the air sherlock)

DK does not have options that are similar to D3 in the air in anyway, It is a bad comparison.

I hope Foxs start trying to RAIN laser me lol, if I see a Fox going off the ledge I'm not just gonna sit there, I'm gonna run over and side b/grab/DA him for it, not like his lasers are going to stop me, and once he starts lasering he's committed.

Real talk that would make my day to

 

[_Kain_]

Why would you jump over "RAIN" lasers. Now you are in the air and he can just keep shooting you at range.

Stop making up situations as if they can stop all options, it's up to the player to react, Fox doesn't have a side b like Falco, therefore jumping from faraway isn't really an issue against him since he wont b able to punish it properly

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Stuff

Are reading what I'm saying or are you trying to pretend I'm saying something else?

I said the concept of what Lucario needs to do is similar, not the exact same thing as DK. I would have said exact same instead similar.

Risk reward is garbage, k. Wanna say something that wasn't obvious already that I stated was something Lucario had to figure out was worth taking a risk for?

It's a pick your poison situation of risk. Never said otherwise of anything else.

 

[Nefarious B]

Reflector stuff and Fox's JC Item Toss.

Reflector is way risky dude. That's like, the main way to land dsmash on Fox/Wolf. I can just do a down throw glide toss and now you're chillin looking cool in your reflector while I j.izz my dsmash 0-death all over you.

I've landed this on TKD, Trevonte, Choice's wolf, as well other unfortunate spacey mains, believe me when I say shield>>>reflector for suitpieces. Unless you're falco

Saying JC item toss isn't really getting specific about what you can do with it. It's like me saying ZSS's glidetoss makes her item game good. I personally think Wolf's item game is much better than Fox's, and Falco's is incredible.

 

[Spelt]

reflector doesn't seem like it has enough end lag to be punished by dsmash... it has a ****load of startup.

 

[C.J.]

Wait, what? Fox's reflector hits frame 3 (I think it's invincible frames 1-3 too, idk though) and end on frame 20ish.

Wolf's is invincible 1-9 and hits on 8. Ends mid 30s.

Both endings are assuming you just press it and don't hold it.