New Characters for Project M Discussion Thread (Voting Closed)

[Shin F.]

So, for those who do not really remember all the differences between Pichu and Pikachu back in Melee, what exactly is the biggest impediment for, say, Pichu to get the Doc treatment and be a special skin for Pikachu?

Two things. Size, and bones. Pichu is smaller, which would mess with hurtboxes - and, though he seems similar at first glance, he has a fairly different bone structure.

By the way, just made this real quick to show you why Pichu can't be a costume:

Spoiler

Here, we have the Melee models of Pichu and Pikachu side by side. To the left is Pichu at his original size and to the right, he is scaled so that he's at the same head height as Pikachu. As you can see, he doesn't match up nearly enough. Looking at the back shot, his tail isn't long enough even on the scaled-up version, his head is far too big, and his ears are ridiculously large compared to Pikachu's. Not to mention that he doesn't even have legs. For a costume to work, they need to be a very, very close match to the original. Pichu quite simply would not work.

The funny thing is that they proved that it is possible, lmao.

They made the Ike climbers, making 2 small pikachus would be well within the realm of possibility.

That's not what they did with Ike Climbers. They added codes so Player 1 and Player 2 would have the same inputs, with one slightly delayed, and then they put them on the same team so they wouldn't hit each other to create the illusion of a dual character. The way to do it was released on the vault.

Having said that, you're right in that they can definitely do it, as Dantarion has shown off by doing this with Jigglypuff, Link, and Marth before.

 

[Draco_The]

Two things. Size, and bones. Pichu is smaller, which would mess with hurtboxes - and, though he seems similar at first glance, he has a fairly different bone structure.

And that alternate costumes shouldn't change the identity of the characters.

 

[ZeldaFan01]

Two things. Size, and bones. Pichu is smaller, which would mess with hurtboxes - and, though he seems similar at first glance, he has a fairly different bone structure.


That's not what they did with Ike Climbers. They added codes so Player 1 and Player 2 would have the same inputs, with one slightly delayed, and then they put them on the same team so they wouldn't hit each other to create the illusion of a dual character. The way to do it was released on the vault.

Having said that, you're right in that they can definitely do it, as Dantarion has shown off by doing this with Jigglypuff, Link, and Marth before.

Wow, i guess I'm not in the minority of wanting pichu..
But one thing that worries me is that the pikachu in ssbb may be the pichu from melee because of the volt tackle final smash. So if pm was to add pichu, they may or may not have a hard time differentiating them.They might because of the final smash thing or they may not and differentiate pichu's melee move set further like the did with Roy

 

[Shin F.]

But one thing that worries me is that the pikachu in ssbb may be the pichu from melee because of the volt tackle final smash.

I'm not even going to begin to go into the reasons why this doesn't matter.

 

[JayTheUnseen]

If they made Pichu Bros,an interesting why to do this while keeping them unique from ICs is this.
The second Pichu follows your inputs exactly,only a few frames later,and if he gets hit,you BOTH take damage.If you are flung,so is he.In other words,inseperable ICs.
That may be impossible though.

 

[MM3K]

That's regular IC's though, they both have independent damage meters, and yeah I don't think they could be made so they are always together.

Also, I thought the whole Pichu Bros. thing was so there was no ''damage yourself'' mechanic, is it not?

 

[ZeldaFan01]

I'm not even going to begin to go into the reasons why this doesn't matter.

Fair enough. I mean fine, I guess they wouldn't be thinking "oh, since they're the same person all along, it's going to be extremely difficult going about adding pichu!"

 

[Oh My Gascho]

The only way I could see Pichu being brought in is if they changed around a lot of the moves from melee into a more viable and unique moveset. Maybe change side-b into a volt tackle move that works kinda like kirbys dash attack, and give Pichu a new down b as well as changing his/her aerials.

 

[JayTheUnseen]

Fair enough. I mean fine, I guess they wouldn't be thinking "oh, since they're the same person all along, it's going to be extremely difficult going about adding pichu!"

Isn't that idle speculation anyways?Not that I discourage that,it's a cool idea,but it isn't canon,is it?

 

[ZeldaFan01]

Isn't that idle speculation anyways?Not that I discourage that,it's a cool idea,but it isn't canon,is it?

Actually it's not really canon to even brawl...it's really just a theory only because of one of pikachu's new alt costume in brawl(blue goggles) and volt tackle can only be learned in the pichu stage and can't be learned by pikachu.

 

[JayTheUnseen]

Actually it's not really canon to even brawl...it's really just a theory only because of one of pikachu's new alt costume in brawl(blue goggles) and volt tackle can only be learned in the pichu stage and can't be learned by pikachu.

Oh yes,good point.Definitely a cool idea,adds some 'story' to Smash.

 

[ThePlacidPlatypus]

The only way I could see Pichu being brought in is if they changed around a lot of the moves from melee into a more viable and unique moveset. Maybe change side-b into a volt tackle move that works kinda like kirbys dash attack, and give Pichu a new down b as well as changing his/her aerials.

I don't know about that. Being a clone helps Pichu since it means that he's easier to make. Maybe a few moves could be changed like with Roy, but I don't see them making him being too different, if they make him at all.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

What do you mean? I'm just being logical...

all I'm saying is that they should put ALL 5 forgotten melee characters first before putting anyone else. Don't you think that would make the most sense if they're trying to bring melee back in a way? Are both of them coming back before anyone else? Probably not because of the poll. I'm just say what I think makes the most sense to me even if I'm in the minority..

Some things are better left forgotten, including the Pokemon that is borderline useless for battles (Pichu) and yet another version of Link who wouldn't get to be the same as his previous self since Tink has his stuff now.
Who says they're trying to "bring melee back"? Melee never went anywhere and still exists. The intent of PM is not to be Melee. It's kind of pointless to give character slots to a joke character and another one who has no reason to exist now.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

all I'm saying is that they should put ALL 5 forgotten melee characters first before putting anyone else. Don't you think that would make the most sense if they're trying to bring melee back in a way? Are both of them coming back before anyone else? Probably not because of the poll. I'm just say what I think makes the most sense to me even if I'm in the minority..

Didn't they said that they don't want to make this "Melee 2.0" or something like that? Either way, isn't it better to try something fresh and new that never was before in SSB instead of bringing back something old that not many wanted back? Roy and Mewtwo were very popular characters that got cut, so, it makes sense to add them even if it was done before and isn't much different now, but Dr.Mario (who is an alt now) and Pichu are nowhere near them.

 

[OrangeSodaGuy]

I know there have been a lot of Pichu ideas kicked around earlier in the thread... especially the 3-zip Agility recovery and the "discharge" move I brought up a while back. (A thunderesque move that charges up the more Pichu moves around, much like the Plasma ability in Kirby's Super Star)

Thinking about it more, I actually really, really like the idea of having the Pichu bros in the game. They could employ desynch shenanigans, wild combos, and chaingrabs like the Ice Climbers, making them an actual threat in spite of their self-damage gimmick.

Also, there could be an option to hold R if you want to play as a lone Pichu, so the fans who want their joke character can disrespect to their heart's content. Everybody wins!

EDIT: I'll have to try and dig up my old posts if anyone is looking for elaboration on the Pichu moveset tweaks I suggested back then. Wish me luck ;__;

 

[Shin F.]

In regards to the discussion about Project M being "Melee 2.0", the original goal was to make it like Melee, but right now, it's more that it's meant to be seen as a proper sequel - retaining what made Melee great, while also bringing something fresh and new. It takes influence from every game in the series (perhaps with Smash 4 as an exception, but there may even be a bit from there, with G&W's white color being similar to Smash 4's.)

 

[BaganSmashBros]

I know there have been a lot of Pichu ideas kicked around earlier in the thread... especially the 3-zip Agility recovery and the "discharge" move I brought up a while back. (A thunderesque move that charges up the more Pichu moves around, much like the Plasma ability in Kirby's Super Star)

Thinking about it more, I actually really, really like the idea of having the Pichu bros in the game. They could employ desynch shenanigans, wild combos, and chaingrabs like the Ice Climbers, making them an actual threat in spite of their self-damage gimmick.

Also, there could be an option to hold R if you want to play as a lone Pichu, so the fans who want their joke character can disrespect to their heart's content. Everybody wins!

EDIT: I'll have to try and dig up my old posts if anyone is looking for elaboration on the Pichu moveset tweaks I suggested back then. Wish me luck ;__;

Lone Pichu option is impossible like lone IC is impossible. They are loaded as same character from what i remember. Charizard and co. could be separated only because there already existed lone versions of those characters in game (they are used in Subspace Emissary).

 

[OrangeSodaGuy]

Lone Pichu option is impossible like lone IC is impossible. They are loaded as same character from what i remember. Charizard and co. could be separated only because there already existed lone versions of those characters in game (they are used in Subspace Emissary).

Ah, I didn't know that. Sorry! u___u

That would be pretty neat if they ever found a way to do that, though.

EDIT: I was wrong, they actually did that with the Ice Climbers! Good looking out on that and digging up my old posts, Shin F

 

[Shin F.]

I thought of another Pichu idea-- who remembers the Plasma ability from Kirby's Super Star?

What if Pichu had a move like that? It could start off as a very weak attack with short range, but could charge the more you ran around (dashdancing FTW) It would work well for a hit-n-run esque character. When fully charged, Pichu would become electrified, which would damage enemies that touched it (like in Super Star) as well as Pichu itself. Using the move then would unleash an incredibly powerful electric ball of death


Back to the subject at hand, I would lol if Ridley got into PM as a fully playable 16-bit sprite.

Okay, jokes aside, that tail would make a GNARLY Dair. It would have to have deceptive range and be able to prop foes upwards so that Ridley can combo them with his claws in midair. After all, it's only natural that a character with wings would be better suited to aerial combat.

EDIT: Speaking of Shin B.'s previous post, what if Ridley had an Up-B similar to Falcon/Ganon? That launched Ridley upward and grabbed any unfortunate opponent that happened to be in his way?

That would make a lot of sense. If they can get away with being around the same size as Bowser in the SSBM intro, then dagnabit, they can do it here too! (I'm starting to sound like Cranky Kong all of a sudden. haha)

To elaborate on the Plasma Pichu idea (spoilertagged in the hopes of not derailing the Ridley discussion)

Spoiler

Pichu's Thunder Jolt (B), Agility (up B) and Thunder (down B) would be his most revamped moves.

Thunder jolt would have less range, but would be able to paralyze opponents like ZSS's Paralyzer. Pichu will take damage from using this move, but it can give you time to escape if you're in a bind.

Agility would feature three zips instead of two (each zip would be slightly shorter than one of Pika's). The move still does no damage.

Thunder would instead become Discharge. Normally, Discharge would be a VERY weak move. The more Pichu runs around (again, dashdancing FTW), the more electricity it will build up. When fully charged, Pichu will become electrified-- anything it touches will take damage, and Pichu will take damage itself until it uses Discharge. Discharge would look similar to Pika's Thunder except for one thing-- it travels horizontally! Instead of coming from the clouds, Pichu will discharge a gigantic thunderbolt from it's own body that would shoot straight ahead, decimating all that it touches! The question is: can Pichu live long enough to use it?

Also, I had a really silly idea. If Pichu got a final smash, what if it was Destiny Bond? A 20-second timer would appear above Pichu's head, and if it is KO'd before that timer runs out, whoever landed the killing blow will be instantly defeated! Imagine the salt this would cause in Team Matches! :kappa:

EDIT: I'm pretty sure that Pichu can't use destiny bond. Would still be hilarious though.

There ya go, OrangeSodaGuy.

Lone Pichu option is impossible like lone IC is impossible. They are loaded as same character from what i remember. Charizard and co. could be separated only because there already existed lone versions of those characters in game (they are used in Subspace Emissary).

It's already in Project M like that, though. Just hold R when picking Ice Climbers, and you can play as a Solo one. If they did Pichu Bros, they could probably emulate that.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

It's already in Project M like that, though. Just hold R when picking Ice Climbers, and you can play as a Solo one. If they did Pichu Bros, they could probably emulate that.

WHAT?! Then forget what i said. Didn't know about that. What other "impossible" things they made must i know about, then? This is 2nd time something like this happens.

 

[ZeldaFan01]

Some things are better left forgotten, including the Pokemon that is borderline useless for battles (Pichu) and yet another version of Link who wouldn't get to be the same as his previous self since Tink has his stuff now.
Who says they're trying to "bring melee back"? Melee never went anywhere and still exists. The intent of PM is not to be Melee. It's kind of pointless to give character slots to a joke character and another one who has no reason to exist now.

I know I'm just being nostalgic about the two characters really, and, pm is designed to make the gameplay resemble ssbm and I guess not about needing to bring all five characters back.. If they are going to bring them back though Pichu can be a similar case to roy and Young Link can now be the one from Majora's Mask with the transformation masks and other items from that gem

Didn't they said that they don't want to make this "Melee 2.0" or something like that? Either way, isn't it better to try something fresh and new that never was before in SSB instead of bringing back something old that not many wanted back? Roy and Mewtwo were very popular characters that got cut, so, it makes sense to add them even if it was done before and isn't much different now, but Dr.Mario (who is an alt now) and Pichu are nowhere near them.

I didn't realize that they didn't want to make this Melee 2.0. Wow, BaganSmashBros, I would think thats the first thing they'd be thinking about. And I shouldve known that Roy and Mewtwo were the most popular than the others. And they were supposed to be in brawl and thats another thing. I also should've known that they're goal wasn't to bring all five back, it was just to make the gameplay more like melee, Roy, Mewtwo, and Dr. are just a special case

 

[Crixler]

I'd love to see Young Link and Pichu brought back, with some overhauls.
But not with the 7(/8?) clone slot limitation. If the PMDT ever finds a way to expand their clone engine, or switches to the other one, then yeah, Young Linki all the way! After they finish with some other characters, first, though.

 

[ThePlacidPlatypus]

I'd love to see Young Link and Pichu brought back, with some overhauls.
But not with the 7(/8?) clone slot limitation. If the PMDT ever finds a way to expand their clone engine, or switches to the other one, then yeah, Young Linki all the way! After they finish with some other characters, first, though.

It seems that there are a good number of people who think this way. I wonder how support for characters would change if we didn't have to deal with limits or if the limits were less narrow. I certainly feel that some characters, particularly simple clones, would have a much better chance of making it in if they had more slots to work with.

 

[JayTheUnseen]

To be honest,I've always appreciated clones.I love seeing slightly different takes on a playstyle,(Dr.Mario,Roy)but also characters that look similar but are quite different(Ganondorf/C.Falcon,
Wolf/Falco/Fox),especially if the alternative is fewer characters.In the case of P:M,a new clone could have the same animations as another character at first,but then get slowly de-cloned,like Ganondorf has been,and if necessary,toss a few original moves their way.

But with all that said,given the limited slots,I too would prefer original characters over clones.It'd be very interesting to see the PMDT flex their creative muscles in new ways they never could before by having a completely original character to build up.Given the intriguing tweaks they've made to existing characters,like Lucas,they would be quite capable of it and would produce an interesting and probably very unique addition to the roster.It would probably be a very fun undertaking for the developers as well,seeing how much they seem to love doing this.

 

[LightningLoops]

Leaning towards newer characters as well. They'll bring something fresh to the game (new blood, match ups, technology, etc).

Pichu and Young Link bring none of that. Only disappointment.

 

[Jurae818]

If Knuckles is being added, this absolutely needs to be a pallete choice.

I loved the yellow cuffs.

 

[ThePlacidPlatypus]

To be honest,I've always appreciated clones.I love seeing slightly different takes on a playstyle,(Dr.Mario,Roy)but also characters that look similar but are quite different(Ganondorf/C.Falcon,
Wolf/Falco/Fox),especially if the alternative is fewer characters.In the case of P:M,a new clone could have the same animations as another character at first,but then get slowly de-cloned,like Ganondorf has been,and if necessary,toss a few original moves their way.

But with all that said,given the limited slots,I too would prefer original characters over clones.It'd be very interesting to see the PMDT flex their creative muscles in new ways they never could before by having a completely original character to build up.Given the intriguing tweaks they've made to existing characters,like Lucas,they would be quite capable of it and would produce an interesting and probably very unique addition to the roster.It would probably be a very fun undertaking for the developers as well,seeing how much they seem to love doing this.

Well it's not like we're going to get all completely unique characters anyway. They take too long to make. Plus if the rumors are true then we already have a couple of clones on the way, even if the one has some unique attributes.

 

[ManaT]

I feel like Pichu could be really well done by the team, I personally never viewed him as a joke character.

just watching Mew2King play him makes me feel like if Pichu had a better all around kit he would be really fun and a force to be reckoned with

 

[Hagrid]

If they made Pichu Bros,an interesting why to do this while keeping them unique from ICs is this.
The second Pichu follows your inputs exactly,only a few frames later,and if he gets hit,you BOTH take damage.If you are flung,so is he.In other words,inseperable ICs.
That may be impossible though.

Personally I think Plusle and Minum would make a better Ice Climber playstyle. Their moveset could involve sending long bolts of electricity between one another, which could work really well if they had a move that made one of the duo stay planted in a spot on the stage. It would make for a moveset that is risky but with the potential for great stage control.

Pichu Bros could be an alternate costume of them.

 

[MagnesD3]

Wow, i guess I'm not in the minority of wanting pichu..
But one thing that worries me is that the pikachu in ssbb may be the pichu from melee because of the volt tackle final smash. So if pm was to add pichu, they may or may not have a hard time differentiating them.They might because of the final smash thing or they may not and differentiate pichu's melee move set further like the did with Roy

No most dont want pichu. Most hate pichu and dont talk about him since he's so insignificant.

 

[ZeldaFan01]

No most dont want pichu. Most hate pichu and dont talk about him since he's so insignificant.

Yeah, unfortunately not many people are that nostalgic and sometimes just want new fresh characters that are more unique. And i don't blame them. Because I too would want Isaac, Lyn, or even Saki to be playable because they'd have a move set that we've never really seen before (except for brawl hacks of course) and would take a lot of effort for PM to make.

 

[Shin F.]

Personally I think Plusle and Minum would make a better Ice Climber playstyle. Their moveset could involve sending long bolts of electricity between one another, which could work really well if they had a move that made one of the duo stay planted in a spot on the stage. It would make for a moveset that is risky but with the potential for great stage control.

Pichu Bros could be an alternate costume of them.

Nah, Pichu Bros works better from a practical standpoint. Clone characters need to use Boss soundbanks, which are very limited in size, so having the voices for two different characters in one soundbank would be tough to pull off. Further, Pichu already has sounds from Melee they can use, whereas Plusle and Minun don't. And finally, It would be better for Pichu fans to actually have the character they really want than another, similar character that works on the same concept. If you're going to try to please his fans, go all the way with it.

I'd say make a costume for them referencing Plusle and Minun.

 

[Anonistry]

And that alternate costumes shouldn't change the identity of the characters.

Depends how far you want to take that. By the rationale that we have for Dr. Mario alt, he is a "different identity." Actually so is the alt for Lucas, referencing an outright different character from that game. Granted, I would imagine that you are arguing orders of magnitude, but... hey, I could think of a worse use for alt outfits.

Also, is that a Big Band avatar? If so, you remind me that when Beowulf comes out, I seriously may look into getting that game...

 

[Shin F.]

Depends how far you want to take that. By the rationale that we have for Dr. Mario alt, he is a "different identity." Actually so is the alt for Lucas, referencing an outright different character from that game. Granted, I would imagine that you are arguing orders of magnitude, but... hey, I could think of a worse use for alt outfits.

Also, is that a Big Band avatar? If so, you remind me that when Beowulf comes out, I seriously may look into getting that game...

Dr. Mario is still Mario, so his identity is the same. And Lucas actually wears that costume in his game.

Spoiler

The costume is different from Masked Man, who wears a black jacket rather than a brown one, and of course, has the mask.

Besides that, referencing other characters via cosplay (wearing their clothes) is not against the rules, hence Sigurd Marth and Hector Ike. Changing them into the character they are referencing is what is against their rules, IE if Peach actually had a Daisy model instead of just altered clothes and colors.

 

[Anonistry]

Dr. Mario is still Mario, so his identity is the same. And Lucas actually wears that costume in his game.

Spoiler

The costume is different from Masked Man, who wears a black jacket rather than a brown one, and of course, has the mask.

Besides that, referencing other characters via cosplay (wearing their clothes) is not against the rules, hence Sigurd Marth and Hector Ike. Changing them into the character they are referencing is what is against their rules, IE if Peach actually had a Daisy model instead of just altered clothes and colors.

Huh, didn't know that bout the Klaus costume, neat! Guess that makes sense, then.

 

[leekslap]

*in Patrick ( from Spongebob ) voice* BUTT MEW2KING SAYD PICHU UNDERFATED
http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2014/...iscusses-his-super-smash-bros-tier-list-pt-1/

Seriously, why does the other worse and made irrelevant clone ( Roy ) get special top tier treatment, while Pichu is left for friendlies? He could make his electric type part of his gimmick while still keeping his self damaging mechanic. Let me explain.

Pichu has 4 different levels of charge, and, depending on the level, certain moves' power and use changes. How does he charge up? Through his now godlike movement of course. This goes with Pichu's hit and run playstyle, and encourages optimal movement to control your level of charge because the highest level is not always the best. Why? Because it's the level that damages him when he uses an attack. But it gives him monstrous kill power including with his new side special, Discharge. It's practically useless at level 1, but builds power and becomes an epic horizontal beam of electricity destruction. His down and neutral special are much weaker than Pikachu's, but they have more hit lag and hit stun. Overall, Pichu is a mobile glass cannon that needs optimal movement and spacing to do well at a proffesional level.

 

[OrangeSodaGuy]

Dr. Mario is still Mario, so his identity is the same. And Lucas actually wears that costume in his game.

Spoiler

The costume is different from Masked Man, who wears a black jacket rather than a brown one, and of course, has the mask.

Besides that, referencing other characters via cosplay (wearing their clothes) is not against the rules, hence Sigurd Marth and Hector Ike. Changing them into the character they are referencing is what is against their rules, IE if Peach actually had a Daisy model instead of just altered clothes and colors.

I'm still salty that Peach's "Daisy" costume didn't make it into 3.5. (and I don't even play Peach :secret: )
As for Young Link, I dunno. There's definitely potential in the idea of his mask transformations, but that could be an absolute coding nightmare for the PMBR, it would probably eat up the other four clone engine character spots, and we've already got a spiritual successor to Young Link in Toon Link. Pichu would fill a more unique niche that isn't seen as often and still leave enough room for four other characters to enter the fray (e.g: Ridley)

That would be amazing to see the PMBR find a way around the clone engine character limit, however. Lyn, Paper Mario, Ray-01, Samurai Goroh, and Dixie are all characters I could totally get behind.

 

[Dellexe]

I'm going to throw a vote at a remade Pichu.

 

[MagnesD3]

I want pichu to be buried forever.

 

[Insanity's Bane]

I want pichu to be buried forever.

My sentiments exactly. I think I'll repost what I said before about Pichu.

-1 Pichu
Time spent on Pichu is time wasted. Project M already has seven PokéReps. If they do decide to add another one, why not choose one that has had some sort of significance on the series as a whole? Like, say, Dragonite.

Maybe it's just me or maybe I'm not looking hard enough, but I don't see what Pichu could bring to the table that other characters already don't.