New Characters for Project M Discussion Thread (Voting Closed)

[Shin F.]

@Afrodude , could you confirm whether you want to vote for Slippy? You posted a lot of support for him, but I never saw you actually give him a vote.

This is just a general message to everyone, by the way, but people - please be clear when you're voting for someone. There've already been times when we've had to guess just because people have worded their votes in a way that was unclear they were voting.

 

[Warsaint777]

I vote for Ray first, formally, as well as Andy, if I'm allowed to do two. Am I?

 

[Shin F.]

I vote for Ray first, formally, as well as Andy, if I'm allowed to do two. Am I?

You have five up-votes. They should be used carefully because you can't change them without a damn good reason. These are characters you feel strongly about.

You have an infinite number of half-votes, which are for characters you support but don't feel strongly about

You have an infinite number of down-votes, which are for characters who would literally ruin the game for you. You must provide a decent reason for all down-votes or they will not be counted.

 

[Symba]

Uggh my vote is powerlessssss lol. RAY x 9000+!!!/

I remember back when I wanted a Mewtwo clone of Mew. Like, faster and lighter or something. That'd be a little too crazy.

That would be freakin amazing. Only sad part is like it's either Pichu or Mew, OH MAYBE MEW can be like a MIX Faster version of Mewtwo moves and but the design is just taking from Pichu and he gets a little something from Pichu moveset? That would be great.

 

[Warsaint777]

That would be freakin amazing. Only sad part is like it's either Pichu or Mew, OH MAYBE MEW can be like a MIX Faster version of Mewtwo moves and but the design is just taking from Pichu and he gets a little something from Pichu moveset? That would be great.

Haha yeah maybe. It'd be weird to design in a way since mew like basically never touches the ground though. It always hovers like a full 2 feet off the ground minimum.

 

[Bambi_]

Oh boy are we talking Pichu redesigns? I have just the thing for you. (I've spent months on this piece of **** please help).

 

[Solbliminal]

Oh boy... It is that time again...

 

[Saito]

Oh boy... It is that time again...

No it's not.

Unless I'm actively participating, the real Pichu **** can't start going down.

 

[Bambi_]

Oh boy... It is that time again...

I'm sorry, I can't understand your accent .

It's always that time. If you're not actively participating, you're lying to yourself.

 

[Solbliminal]

No it's not.

Unless I'm actively participating, the real Pichu **** can't start going down.

>Implying I was talking about Pichu.

 

[Saito]

>Implying I was talking about Pichu.

Is this about the infiltrators?

 

[Solbliminal]

Is this about the infiltrators?

Yeah. That is exactly what this is about. Thank you for getting it right this time.

 

[ThePlacidPlatypus]

I'd kinda like Pichu to keep his self damage mechanic. It has become part of who he is, and I actually liked playing with that type of handicap. It made victory a bit more rewarding. Though perhaps introduce the tools necessary to allow Pichu to take advantage of that self damage, as people have suggested in the past.
One idea would be to give Pichu Lucario's "aura" mechanic from Brawl. The PM guys said that they removed this from Lucario because they "didn't think that rewarding the player for getting hit was the best possible design choice." However, this wouldn't really be the case for Pichu, as he often damages himself. This would give people more reason to use the self damaging moves, as they'd have a risk/reward factor. This mechanic would be even more useful on Pichu, as players could use self damaging moves on purpose as a sort of strategy. With Lucario, getting hit would grant you a boost, but you could also die from knockback. It could also make Pichu's frailty have a practical side to it.
Some have also suggested giving him flail as a move. In the games flail does more damage when your health is lower. Likewise, this move would deal more damage at higher percentage. Perhaps even becoming a near OHKO move at some point.

 

[Grey Belnades]

She has stayed strong through the entire duration of this thread. She's not going to budge.

Sweet. I haven't viewed the thread in over quite sometime so I was worried how the reopening of votes might have possibly changed things up.

 

[Bambi_]

I'd kinda like Pichu to keep his self damage mechanic. It has become part of who he is, and I actually liked playing with that type of handicap. It made victory a bit more rewarding. Though perhaps introduce the tools necessary to allow Pichu to take advantage of that self damage, as people have suggested in the past.
One idea would be to give Pichu Lucario's "aura" mechanic from Brawl. The PM guys said that they removed this from Lucario because they "didn't think that rewarding the player for getting hit was the best possible design choice." However, this wouldn't really be the case for Pichu, as he often damages himself. This would give people more reason to use the self damaging moves, as they'd have a risk/reward factor. This mechanic would be even more useful on Pichu, as players could use self damaging moves on purpose as a sort of strategy. With Lucario, getting hit would grant you a boost, but you could also die from knockback. It could also make Pichu's frailty have a practical side to it.
Some have also suggested giving him flail as a move. In the games flail does more damage when your health is lower. Likewise, this move would deal more damage at higher percentage. Perhaps even becoming a near OHKO move at some point.

I'm sorry but this far, far exceeds maximum acceptable jank levels. This is too polarizing and too much of a removal from normal combat. It'd make it so Pichus didn't really fight, they just wait till their opponent has nearly killed them and then try to OHKO. Like, would it be powerful enough that Pichus would want to be at a higher percent? So they'd just camp the ledge with fairs till they were at 100%+ and then run in, either about to land a OHKO or get KOd from any tilt? It means their opponent's stock would end when their own stock gets near its end due to the power of its moves, and then the opponent would respawn still ready to die because the Pichu was at a high percent. It adds second meaning to "you're almost dead" which shouldn't be there. There shouldn't ever be positive rewards for being nearly dead; changing the rules up so that there are is redefining how fighting works and that just ruins everything a lot. I'm opposed to there being anything so jank that you take damage and say "Alright, closer to winning!" And regardless of who dealt the damage (Pichu, or its opponent), this is still rewarding the player for chipping away at their own health: the reason the PMBR removed it from Lucario.

There's other reasons that aura is bad, though. Because damage factors into the equation for knockback, having variable damage from an aura status would make it so combos didn't consistently work across Pichu's percents. It's like how when you get hit by Olimar and you don't know how you'll fly because there are 6 different hitboxes that could come out. Also, it's best to avoid any extreme changes; I was trying to keep the Pichu that I made as close to Melee's Pichu as possible while fixing any weaknesses that got in the way of what should be strengths. It would be an extreme character with its speed and early deaths, but aura on top of recoil damage is making it so it would hardly be a fighter at all, more of just a dice roll to see who gets the first hit in after Pichu is at 100%. You'd still have to fix this character even if you tacked the aura and high-percent OHKO move on; most of Pichu's moves just don't work due to having insanely low base knockbacks, high knockback growths, low damage, and garbage range. It deserves a lot more care than "When I'm about to die, you'll die with me."

 

[Shin F.]

I'm sorry but this far, far exceeds maximum acceptable jank levels. This is too polarizing and too much of a removal from normal combat. It'd make it so Pichus didn't really fight, they just wait till their opponent has nearly killed them and then try to OHKO. Like, would it be powerful enough that Pichus would want to be at a higher percent? So they'd just camp the ledge with fairs till they were at 100%+ and then run in, either about to land a OHKO or get KOd from any tilt? It means their opponent's stock would end when their own stock gets near its end due to the power of its moves, and then the opponent would respawn still ready to die because the Pichu was at a high percent. It adds second meaning to "you're almost dead" which shouldn't be there. There shouldn't ever be positive rewards for being nearly dead; changing the rules up so that there are is redefining how fighting works and that just ruins everything a lot. I'm opposed to there being anything so jank that you take damage and say "Alright, closer to winning!" And regardless of who dealt the damage (Pichu, or its opponent), this is still rewarding the player for chipping away at their own health: the reason the PMBR removed it from Lucario.

There's other reasons that aura is bad, though. Because damage factors into the equation for knockback, having variable damage from an aura status would make it so combos didn't consistently work across Pichu's percents. It's like how when you get hit by Olimar and you don't know how you'll fly because there are 6 different hitboxes that could come out. Also, it's best to avoid any extreme changes; I was trying to keep the Pichu that I made as close to Melee's Pichu as possible while fixing any weaknesses that got in the way of what should be strengths. It would be an extreme character with its speed and early deaths, but aura on top of recoil damage is making it so it would hardly be a fighter at all, more of just a dice roll to see who gets the first hit in after Pichu is at 100%. You'd still have to fix this character even if you tacked the aura and high-percent OHKO move on; most of Pichu's moves just don't work due to having insanely low base knockbacks, high knockback growths, low damage, and garbage range. It deserves a lot more care than "When I'm about to die, you'll die with me."

This is why I feel like OrangeSodaGuy's Discharge idea is so good for Pichu. Basically, it works like Plasma Kirby in Kirby Super Star so that when Pichu moves around a lot, he builds up an electric charge. The more charge he has, the stronger Discharge becomes when you use it, after which it'll reset to low. When Discharge is full, the extra electricity starts damaging Pichu until he uses it. This way, you can keep some form the self-damage in a way that doesn't throw out balancing or empower Pichu beyond what normal characters can do, and it's not so different from the Wario Waft in function.

 

[Bambi_]

This is why I feel like OrangeSodaGuy's Discharge idea is so good for Pichu. Basically, it works like Plasma Kirby in Kirby Super Star so that when Pichu moves around a lot, he builds up an electric charge. The more charge he has, the stronger Discharge becomes when you use it, after which it'll reset to low. When Discharge is full, the extra electricity starts damaging Pichu until he uses it. This way, you can keep some form the self-damage in a way that doesn't throw out balancing or empower Pichu beyond what normal characters can do, and it's not so different from the Wario Waft in function.

Problem there is that I hate Wario Waft. I don't like moves that charge passively because they slice up the metagame with "well IF you have a waft ready..." and remove control over the "if" variable from the player. Fortunately your idea doesn't charge passively, it's more semi-passive. So yeah, I could see that being a substitute for Thunder. I could also see it being an annoyance, though. If you build up too much electricity while you're comboing and don't want to use your discharge, it could be in your way because you want to keep the charge to kill, but you don't want to keep it because you'll take damage. Discharge could work, but I'd also like to see how Pichu functions when its moves are fixed up and it's given some neutral options.

 

[Shin F.]

Problem there is that I hate Wario Waft. I don't like moves that charge passively because they slice up the metagame with "well IF you have a waft ready..." and remove control over the "if" variable from the player. Fortunately your idea doesn't charge passively, it's more semi-passive. So yeah, I could see that being a substitute for Thunder. I could also see it being an annoyance, though. If you build up too much electricity while you're comboing and don't want to use your discharge, it could be in your way because you want to keep the charge to kill, but you don't want to keep it because you'll take damage. Discharge could work, but I'd also like to see how Pichu functions when its moves are fixed up and it's given some neutral options.

Yes, but that's what makes it such an interesting risk vs reward dynamic. Do you risk saving it for a kill shot, or let it loose to avoid damage? The damage you take wouldn't be overly large (1-3% per second), and if you used it you could still build it back up. Dash-dancing would be a great way to do so, even.

 

[Bambi_]

Are you saying it should passively dead recoil damage or it should deal recoil damage when Pichu uses its electrical moves? I like the latter better; it would give the player more control over when they take damage (i.e., when they start to combo they'd probably take about 8-10% before putting out their Discharge).

Past that mechanic though, buffs to Pichu's neutral game are a lot more important than any aura or discharge. If it can't get in to use them, then it doesn't matter what powerful moves it has and the character would only become further polarized.

 

[Shin F.]

Are you saying it should passively dead recoil damage or it should deal recoil damage when Pichu uses its electrical moves? I like the latter better; it would give the player more control over when they take damage (i.e., when they start to combo they'd probably take about 8-10% before putting out their Discharge).

Past that mechanic though, buffs to Pichu's neutral game are a lot more important than any aura or discharge. If it can't get in to use them, then it doesn't matter what powerful moves it has and the character would only become further polarized.

I hadn't thought about it, but I also like the second way better. And yeah, his neutral game can be re-worked however. I just wanted a way to keep his damaging mechanic without making it too polarizing.

 

[JCOnyx]

I think 3 stages for Discharge would be ideal. The lowest charge having no DoT, the second at 1% per second, and a full charge at 2% per second. 3% per second just sounds like it would rack up damage way too fast for the attack to be useful. Think about it, waiting to use it at full charge would result in you already racking up a decent amount of percent. Lets say Pichu's Discharge builds up a charge about every 15-20 seconds of movement, it would take about 30-40 seconds to even reach a full charge and you'll have already taken 15%-20%+ DoT. You'll be taking even more damage before you get it off.

FYI I was writing this up before you guys said that you wouldn't want Pichu to take DoT. I was too slow xD

 

[Saito]

I think 3 stages for Discharge would be ideal. The lowest charge having no DoT, the second at 1% per second, and a full charge at 2% per second. 3% per second just sounds like it would rack up damage way too fast for the attack to be useful. Think about it, waiting to use it at full charge would result in you already racking up a decent amount of percent. Lets say Pichu's Discharge builds up a charge about every 15-20 seconds of movement, it would take about 30-40 seconds to even reach a full charge and you'll have already taken 15%-20%+ DoT. You'll be taking even more damage before you get it off.

FYI I was writing this up before you guys said that you wouldn't want Pichu to take DoT. I was too slow xD

You guys underestimate how much damage that is.

1% damage a second is already a deadly toll on any character, trust me.

2% is insane.

Add in Pichu's light weight and you've got the hardest thing to balance in the game ever right there.

3-5 seconds is more reasonable. It's just long enough to where the damage isn't racking up, but not short enough to where you don't have time to think about how to approach the opponent while minimizing the damage pichu takes.

 

[Bambi_]

I'm still not a fan of recoil damage, but a little bit of damage in certain situations isn't that terrible. So if the amount of recoil damage is reduced and Pichu only takes it when discharge is fully charged and it uses its electrical attacks, then that's somewhat reasonable. What do you guys think of the Skullbash I have in that change list though? (Or anything else in the change list)

 

[JCOnyx]

You guys underestimate how much damage that is.

1% damage a second is already a deadly toll on any character, trust me.

2% is insane.

Add in Pichu's light weight and you've got the hardest thing to balance in the game ever right there.

3-5 seconds is more reasonable. It's just long enough to where the damage isn't racking up, but not short enough to where you don't have time to think about how to approach the opponent while minimizing the damage pichu takes.

That's why I was so worried about them talking about DoT with Pichu. I was posting based on the assumption it would be per second since Shin F. brought that up. After posting, I came to the conclusion that it would be much more balance at every 3 seconds. 5 seems like it wouldn't be racking up any percent at all and wouldn't provide as much as a risk to holding a charge unless the percent taken per second was increased.

I'm still not a fan of recoil damage, but a little bit of damage in certain situations isn't that terrible. So if the amount of recoil damage is reduced and Pichu only takes it when discharge is fully charged and it uses its electrical attacks, then that's somewhat reasonable. What do you guys think of the Skullbash I have in that change list though? (Or anything else in the change list)

I don't like the thought of an air dash being given to Pichu (it fits much more nicely on Ray), but I do like your Fair/Dair swap idea.

 

[Bambi_]

I don't like the thought of an air dash being given to Pichu

Why? It needs mobility to go with that poor range, and this would let it very quickly get in on opponents who have put out a punishable move, especially against characters who outrange it. Sorta like how Luigi can just get in your business in ten frames while on the ground, but Pichu is instead in the air. Also what is Ray?

 

[EdgeTheLucas]

Why? It needs mobility to go with that poor range, and this would let it very quickly get in on opponents who have put out a punishable move, especially against characters who outrange it. Sorta like how Luigi can just get in your business in ten frames while on the ground, but Pichu is instead in the air. Also what is Ray?

Someone cooler than Pichu will ever be He's the robot from Custom Robo. Sol says an air dash would work perfectly on him and it's an idea that's more associated with him than the other characters discussed here.

 

[Saito]

Air dash should go to the chars that it would work on.

Rob has it and it works on him well.

Ray is a robot and it would be extremely appropriate.

Shadow also has an air dash in sonic battle, and that's also great for approaches.

 

[TopTierPichu]

If Pichu were to keep recoil damage, I would hope it would be only on his electric attacks, not like in Melee where Agility (a psychic type move) and head butt ( a normal type move) as well as various non electric normals gave him damage

 

[Anti Guy]

If Pichu were to keep recoil damage, I would hope it would be only on his electric attacks, not like in Melee where Agility (a psychic type move) and head butt ( a normal type move) as well as various non electric normals gave him damage

Omfg just like that he's back, just like the State Farm agent, except summoned by the word "Pichu"

 

[TopTierPichu]

Omfg just like that he's back, just like the State Farm agent, except summoned by the word "Pichu"

you called?

 

[Bambi_]

Omfg just like that he's back, just like the State Farm agent, except summoned by the word "Pichu"

The devotees of our savior Pichu are a loyal bunch. (May I remind you that He takes recoil damage for our sins.)

 

[Shin F.]

Omfg just like that he's back, just like the State Farm agent, except summoned by the word "Pichu"

They say if you say "Pichu" three times in a dark room's mirror, a Mew wearing a Mega Man helmet and blaster will appear from it...

 

[Bambi_]

Ridley will come out of your mirror too if it's big enough for him to fit through.

 

[ZeruSlayer]

I'm sorry, I can't understand your accent .

It's always that time. If you're not actively participating, you're lying to yourself.

For all the Pichu supporters saying the same old s***

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

1+ for Lip.

Wonder how will all the voting even pertain to PMBR in any way though.

 

[Solbliminal]

1+ for Lip.

Wonder how will all the voting even pertain to PMBR in any way though.

The PMBR keeps an eye on this thread more than you would think. Anyone who has participated in this thread long enough has seen them pop in from time to time, and even help us with questions involving Clone Engine characters. So yeah, this thread has a reason to exist.

 

[TopTierPichu]

not that they actually need to listen to the votes or anything

 

[Shin F.]

not that they actually need to listen to the votes or anything

That's not to say that they'll choose to utterly ignore them or anything.

 

[Marthmario]

1+'s
-Lyn: she's on of my favorites and I really do want her.
-Ray: Cuz based Solbliminal says so
-Midna: after seeing her in Hyrule warriors, I want her in Smash!
-Waluigi: It feels weird not having him.


I'm saving an up-vote for later.

 

[Shin F.]

1+'s
-Lyn: she's on of my favorites and I really do want her.
-Ray: Cuz based Solbliminal says so
-Midna: after seeing her in Hyrule warriors, I want her in Smash!
-Waluigi: It feels weird not having him.


I'm saving an up-vote for later.

Marthmario,

You've already used all your up-votes. I'll add the ones you hadn't yet voted for as half-votes for you, though.