Data Moveset Thread - [COMPLETE]

[Sonic Orochi]

Updated the OP with some frame stuff (basically what was posted here by kid craft) and a quick reference guide with most damaging moves, kill moves, and a summary on custom moves (courtesy of Elaith and tweaked a little bit by yours truly).

Weirdly, all of the moves were in the same order both in the OP and on the frame data list.

 

[Heartstring]

Right, right. I guess it's only low charge? I've seen the effect happen before but never on shield, or getting that VSDJ out of things. Pretty interesting.

Can you really get a grab after it though? I imagine the cooldown after the spindash would still be too much regardless of the shieldstun, but maybe I'm wrong.

Yeah, It's either low charge OR near the end of a high charge roll, although thats far more unlikely.
The grab after a non-jumping spindash isn't totally legit by any means, But the majority of my mindgames come from making people scared, so I can make it work.

 

[Camalange]

Yeah, It's either low charge OR near the end of a high charge roll, although thats far more unlikely.
The grab after a non-jumping spindash isn't totally legit by any means, But the majority of my mindgames come from making people scared, so I can make it work.

I could see that working on scrubs, or someone for the first couple times, but then being really easy to adapt to.

It'd be great if you could cancel it in someway, but the slow screech afterword is just begging to be punished.

 

[Heartstring]

I could see that working on scrubs, or someone for the first couple times, but then being really easy to adapt to.

It'd be great if you could cancel it in someway, but the slow screech afterword is just begging to be punished.

Surprisingly enough, it's very hard to see when there's a shield in the way. I've gotten it to work on some high levels players, but it's only a 'first couple of times' deal, as you said. It's particularly useful to use when someone is getting conditioned to you just jumping afterwards. Just another mixup to go on the pile

 

[Camalange]

Surprisingly enough, it's very hard to see when there's a shield in the way. I've gotten it to work on some high levels players, but it's only a 'first couple of times' deal, as you said. It's particularly useful to use when someone is getting conditioned to you just jumping afterwards. Just another mixup to go on the pile

I actually tried it today and the cooldown is somehow not as bad as I thought? Pretty decent option!

 

[OFY]

I gathered the information I found around the board since the game's launch if it helps any in terms of creating a catalog of Sonic's capabilities. For the record, this is all you guys, and not myself, and I apologize for any inconsistencies, but I saw a post about Sonic players' disorganized approach, and thought it might help out a little bit.


Sonic Strategies

Spoiler

- Up Air, Forward Smash, and Up Smash are reliable kill moves.
- Forward and Back Throw can kill at high percentages.
- Back Air is useful for both edgeguarding, and as a kill move.
- Dash Attack can be an effective edge guarding move.
- With proper approach, Down Air is an effective meteor.
- Baiting is the name of the game, though with characters that have an effective projectile game, such as Ness, you want to stay inside and keep up the pressure.
- Spin Dash is good for baiting games and can be left with a jump for aerial combos.
- Homing Attack is a good attack for disrupting some fighters, and can be followed effectively with a Spin Dash.
- Down Smash can be effective for edge guarding.
- Spin Dash can be canceled into a shield. Spin Charge cannot.
- A Spinshot can be done in the air by holding (or fully charging) Spin Dash then quickly hitting Attack or Jump upon release.
- A Spinshot can be done in the air by quickly charging Spin Charge then quickly hitting Attack or Jump upon release.
- A Spinshot can be done on the ground by holding (or fully charging) Spin Dash then quickly hitting Attack or Jump upon release.
- A Spin Dash Cancelled Grab can be done by performing a Spin Dash while running, returning the stick to the neutral position as quickly as possible, and immediately pressing Grab. This is a quick and effective way to do a moving grab.
- Using the default moves is the (by far) preferred moveset, but alternate moves can create changes in the playstyle.


Alternate Moves
- Burning Spin Dash can give the ability to safely clash with stronger projectiles in exchange for no hop and limited follow-up potential.
- Double Spring can be used to save your partner if you happen to misspace a spring drop to restore Up B, in exchange for lower damage and knockback.
- Stomp can offer a consistent spike in exchange for removing homing attack versatility.
- Surprise Attack offers more safety if you miss an attack and speed of recovery in exchange for range, power, and increased lag.
- Hammer Spin Dash offers burial with a huge leap in exchange for mobility and versatility.
- Springing Headbutt offers a hitbox in exchange for riskier play, low damage, less damage than the Spring Jump, and the spring doesn't stick to the ground.
- Auto-Spin Charge offers consistency of the Spin Charge in exchange for a lower charge speed.
- Gravitational Charge offers better edge guarding in exchange for your moves being telegraphed due to changes in animation and sound.

Strategies versus Specific Fighters

Spoiler

Ness
-Stay grounded.
-Down throwing Ness off-stage makes him vulnerable.
-Grabs and forward tilts on the ground. If you end up in the air, your safest bet is to be under Ness with an Up Air.


Diddy
- Up Smash can take Diddy out of Side and Up B.
- Neutral Air to apply pressure to a shield.
- Use Spring to escape as needed.


Bowser
- You can combo on Up Throw due to his weight.


King Dedede
- Fully charged spindash will return Gordos.


Little Mac
- Get him in the air and juggle.
- If he spams counter, abuse grabs and throws.
- Focus on spacing.


Lucario
- Punish and kill as quickly as possible.
- Chase down the early kill, even if you have to go offstage to do so. Down Air Meteor can help here.


Lucina
- Homing attack can disrupt her flow of play.


Mega Man
- Up Air will help Sonic immensely for the battle. Keep the battle aerial.


Rosalina and Luma
- If she throws the Luma at you, close for a grab.


Sheik
- Watch out for needle camping and be prepared to shield on your approach.
- Grabs are an effective punish.


Toon Link
- Approach at an angle.
- Juggle.
- Pressure. Leave no room for a projectile game.


Wario
- Homing Attack functions well as a punish.

What percent would you say kills on forward throw? I know back throw kills at around 120% from midrange to the edge of the stage, depending on the stage.

 

[Sonic Orochi]

Yeah, I've been using slow SCs into shields quite a lot. SC->hit shield->stop behind opponent->Ftilt.

Sometimes I even use a fast one to spice it up a bit: SC->hit shield->turnaround->hit shield->stop behind opponent->Ftilt. It's fun!

Fthrow kills around 150%+, but it depends on your opponent's DI as well.

 

[ROOOOY!]

I don't attempt fthrow before like 170% on basically everyone bar Jiggz.

Anyone finding VSDJ kind of a useful tool in this game? Not sure if it's changed from brawl cos I haven't played for an age, but I seem to be hitting with it quite a lot, and I never used it there. Especially against Peach and other floaties, Mario Bros etc. who approach from the air. Very much a defensive option though cos you've got like no manuevourbility and it leaves you quite vunerable, but I sort of like it. We really need more anti air options anyway. Anyone use this?

 

[Phoenix_Dark]

Yeah, I've been using slow SCs into shields quite a lot. SC->hit shield->stop behind opponent->Ftilt.

Sometimes I even use a fast one to spice it up a bit: SC->hit shield->turnaround->hit shield->stop behind opponent->Ftilt. It's fun!

Fthrow kills around 150%+, but it depends on your opponent's DI as well.

Rage plays a large factor as well. I'm always caught off guard at how early those throws kill when I'm above 100% Killing a character like DK at 100-110 with bthrow is lulzy.

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

VSDJ is amazing in smash 4, mainly because not it will always send the opponent in the direction sonic is facing which means it isn't a guessing game anymore like it was in brawl as to what direction they would get sent in. The hitbox is also active sooner. I use this a lot as a mix-up for opponent who are trying to jump behind me while i'm charging for too long.

Though i still feel like sonic's utilt is near useless. it didn't receive any sort of buff outside less cooldown. the fact it takes longer to KO with utilt than it does ftilt saddens me as most of the time i can either use Uair or VSDJ or nair in place of utilt as a proper anti air and just usmash instead of utilt for a KO. (wish we could've stole fox's utilt too and not just his dsmash :/ )

Though Soft hit reverse Nair to Bair is soooo satisfying.

 

[Camalange]

Nair > Utilt is pretty fun... That's about the extent I have for it.

With the discussed improved utility on VSDJ, it's like a pretty solid anti-air option. Not that Utilt is that bad, but good to keep in mind.

 

[Sonic Orochi]

We can kinda Utilt after the SCR->full stop. Too bad we can't really follow up with anything after it, though: http://youtu.be/491NNnyt7Ls?t=8m31s (actually 8:38 but dat spike on Fox's Illusion is just too cool) and @9:03.

Oh, yeah, and that sliding Utilt.. That's about it.

Man.. our Utilt sucks (it does beat an aerial Falcon Kick @1:46 on that vid, though).

edit:

EDIT: I was the last comment for every stickied thread... Oops. Sorry.

Spoiler

 

[Blank Mauser]

So do any of Sonic's aerials have starting auto cancel frames for dodge canceling? Actually when I think about it, can you dodge cancel with side-B and then shield cancel? Can't test until I get home but that would be useful.

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

sonic's uair can dodge cancel

 

[Camalange]

Sonic's Uair can basically do anything.

I'm not sure if dodge canceling works with specials or not. It's been a while since I looked into it. I think I remember reading that some can but most can't? Don't hold me to that though.

 

[Sonic Orochi]

According to this, Nair and Uair are the only useful normal moves for dodge cancelling.

As for specials, maybe the shield cancelled ASD might be useful (if it even works), but be aware that it will trigger BSBS.

BTW, updated the OP with landing lag for aerials, a few tweaks and uses in the moves' descriptions and added a section for Spin Moves (jumps, rolls, etc).

 

[Camalange]

According to this, Nair and Uair are the only useful normal moves for dodge cancelling.

As for specials, maybe the shield cancelled ASD might be useful (if it even works), but be aware that it will trigger BSBS.

BTW, updated the OP with landing lag for aerials, a few tweaks and uses in the moves' descriptions and added a section for Spin Moves (jumps, rolls, etc).

Uair saves us one frame.

Good.

 

[Blank Mauser]

It works! You can use airdodges IASA frames to cancel into side-B to make it safe. Timing is super lenient compared to other airdodge cancels because of shield cancel. I'll definitely be using this.

 

[Camalange]

It works! You can use airdodges IASA frames to cancel into side-B to make it safe. Timing is super lenient compared to other airdodge cancels because of shield cancel. I'll definitely be using this.

Do you know anything in regards to the amount of frames it's saving us?

 

[Blank Mauser]

Don't know exact frames, but If you do it right before you hit the ground you shouldn't get any landing lag at all I'd imagine. Just however long it takes to put up shield.

Main thing will just be timing the airdodge properly. You can already auto cancel it out of a short-hop, but you'll want as many invul frames as possible before you side-B for maximum safety when falling/escaping follow-ups and whatnot.

 

[kataridragon]

Hmmm I wonder if this can cancel late dair landing lag.
I have noticed that even from very high up a dair will have very very slight landing lag.
I honestly think this going to be one if sonics best traits. All he needed was super safe landing tactics.

EDit: Kinda impractical.

 

[Heartstring]

I wonder, do we know what the autocancel frames are on our aerial attacks? I say this because usually, there's a few frames at the very start of an aerial that we could land with no landing lag (meaning: the regular 2/4 landing frames).

[collapse=Example of brawl frame data]
The bit in bold/red is the section I'm talking about

Nair
Hit on: 15-32
IASA (Air): 76
IASA (Landing): 13
Auto-cancel: 1-7, 67-75
[/collapse]

If we can find out that data on our aerials in this game, we can use that for completely lagless Airdodge-cancelling!

EDIT: I just went and tested which moves we can do this with. I can't get exact frame data yet but here's what I've gotten so far, complete with ordering from worst to best!
DAIR: Due to stall-and-fall, you'll always do the whole startup and endlag animation.
NAIR: Unable to autocancel the startup, no matter how tight you time it, you will always get the Nair landing lag
FAIR: Possible, but the timing is extremely tight
BAIR: Possible, the timing is tight here too, although not as tight as Fair
UAIR: Possible, and it has the easiest timing out of all of the aerials

I suggest you give it a try, go into training mode, set it to 1/4 speed, and do a Uair just before you land, you'll see sonic start to turn upside down (you might even hear the start of the kick sfx!) and then have absolutely no landing lag!
(NOTE: If you do this correctly, you'll actually get the animation for 'Airdodge landing lag' when you hit the floor', but you'll be able to cancel it at any point. strange)

 

[Sonic Orochi]

So, even if we mess up the Uair timing, it's still better than landing with an airdodge (21 vs 22 frames)? Plus, even if we mess up, we'll possibly have a hitbox active around us right before we land on our heads?

 

[Heartstring]

So, even if we mess up the Uair timing, it's still better than landing with an airdodge (21 vs 22 frames)? Plus, even if we mess up, we'll possibly have a hitbox active around us right before we land on our heads?

Precisely, however the timing with Uair is fairly lenient, so if you get it wrong you sorta deserve to get punished lol.

 

[B.A.M.]

Orochi thats still assuming the opponent doesnt throw out whatever attack they are doing early as they see u performing a move. Anyways SC cancels on shield are amazing Ive been using them quite a bit since the 3ds version. It makes me feel like we have ASCSC back *sniffs*

 

[Sonic Orochi]

Remember how SDR and SCR are different now? Well, a SR off a platform will go into an aerial roll, which, depending on the special used, will also be different.

The aerial versions of SC and SD will give us the ASC (3% per hit) and SDH (5%, single hit), respectively.

Very well, a SCR off a platform will become an ASC, however, a SDR off a platform will become something new, an ASDR (aerial Spin Dash Roll), which will not hit for 5% (like the SDH): it hits for an amazing 11%!

Spoiler: wait for it..

PER HIT! Yes, it acts like an ASC and has multiple hits as well. Unfortunately, we can't shield cancel it either.

I don't know how this will work but I can see platforms becoming really useful tools for Sonic.
---
On a side note, I was experimenting with the roll mechanic that kicks in whenever our SR lose speed: you know, when we go from an oval shape into a circle one.

Well, I noticed two things: it doesn't roll off a platform unless you press forward on the analog (just like Brawl, I think), and we can make it go into a skid by pressing back a bit after the CR started (pressing it right away will make Sonic turnaround).

That's about it. It might help with those SCR into shield setups.

 

[Gregory2590]

Wait wait.

So we have another way of getting to 33%+ almost instantly?

 

[Sonic Orochi]

Wait wait.

So we have another way of getting to 33%+ almost instantly?

Possibly, but even getting two hits in SSB4 is kinda difficult.. Still possible, though.

 

[Camalange]

Remember how SDR and SCR are different now? Well, a SR off a platform will go into an aerial roll, which, depending on the special used, will also be different.

The aerial versions of SC and SD will give us the ASC (3% per hit) and SDH (5%, single hit), respectively.

Very well, a SCR off a platform will become an ASC, however, a SDR off a platform will become something new, an ASDR (aerial Spin Dash Roll), which will not hit for 5% (like the SDH): it hits for an amazing 11%!

Spoiler: wait for it..

PER HIT! Yes, it acts like an ASC and has multiple hits as well. Unfortunately, we can't shield cancel it either.

I don't know how this will work but I can see platforms becoming really useful tools for Sonic.

Tested this out for myself and yo...

From ASDR (x2) to SDJ, I was able to get 28% damage. Yo.

Good call, dude.

On a side note, I was experimenting with the roll mechanic that kicks in whenever our SR lose speed: you know, when we go from an oval shape into a circle one.

Well, I noticed two things: it doesn't roll off a platform unless you press forward on the analog (just like Brawl, I think), and we can make it go into a skid by pressing back a bit after the CR started (pressing it right away will make Sonic turnaround).

That's about it. It might help with those SCR into shield setups.

Thanks for sharing, definitely something all Sonics should be exploring... Including myself.

Wait wait.

So we have another way of getting to 33%+ almost instantly?

Possibly, but even getting two hits in SSB4 is kinda difficult.. Still possible, though.

I was able to get two hits, but it's very difficult. Obviously I need more time with it, but It might be possible (2 definitely is at least). As I stated earlier, two hits combo'd into a SDJ is a free 28%.

 

[CryoGX]

>Game tells me "You can cancel SD into a shield when not fully charged!"

>Start experimenting with SDC'ing

>Get crazy because I can screw around much more in group battles.

>Start faking out my hallmates and become the biggest ***hole in the room.

>Evil Laugh x 9001


Seriously, it's like I just had an epiphany recently that allowed me to get a crapton better at Sonic and his mindgames in less than 5 minutes.

"I'm gonna SD you from the air! NOPE! Gonna jump! Comin' for you again with the SD! Whoops, I missed you didn't I? Nope! Aerial attack! Oh! Comin' for ya again with a spin-charge! Nah, just gonna sit right here instead and watch you shield. SD'ing ya from the air again! Now I'm SD'ing this way! Why hit you with an SD when I can back-air you from behind instead? See all of these SD's and SC's I'm spamming? Lol no you don't; that's was a homing attack!"

Not exactly what happens, but that's essentially my thinking process now when I play Sonic, in group battles, at least. I don't really need as many mindgames in 1v1's, from my experience.


Anyway, I'm probably gonna read through this thread to see some good Sonic combos, as at the moment, my playstyle is a bit sporadic.

 

[Gregory2590]

Two things I noticed with the slowed down spindash:

1. It can essentially be used as another meteor setup since you're free to SDH after the ledge stops you.

2. If you do absolutely nothing during the moment an edge stops you from rolling off, you automatically grab the ledge. Unfortunately, since edgehogging is no longer a thing, I'm not seeing much use for this.

 

[Camalange]

Trumping people can sometimes lead to interesting things though depending on how your opponent reacts. Like, if they try to immediately jump after getting trumped you get a free bair.

 

[Espy Rose]

Just trump in general. If they jump, you get to shark a landing. If they don't, grabbing the ledge is the only option, and both dsmash and down angled fsmash hit people the second time they grab the ledge.

 

[Camalange]

Looking forward to when more players actually incorporate trumping into their metagame. I don't see enough of it but that's really going to be what separates Sm4sh from every other Smash game (amongst other things).

 

[PX Pachi]

I like to use the sourspot on later frames of nair as a surprise lovetap into a grab or ftilt, but what are you guys doing with nair? I'd love to hear you guys' thoughts and maybe start applying them to my own play

 

[Camalange]

I like to use the sourspot on later frames of nair as a surprise lovetap into a grab or ftilt, but what are you guys doing with nair? I'd love to hear you guys' thoughts and maybe start applying them to my own play

Late Nairs are definitely amazing for following up into grabs or tilts (I personally like to opt for the grab when I can). I like doing falling Nairs after Spring>Dair as well which potentially lead into more follow-ups.

Also, I like using it to punish spotdodges (empty hop, bait the spotdodge, punish with nair) or airdodges. It can combo and even kill in this game now and works great as a mix-up from the expected Uairs.

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

we can also do semi sourspot nair (the one that deal 8%) to full jump bair on almost the whole cast between 90-120 at which point sourspot (5%) nair will link into it. And yea I've noticed so many people don't utilize trumping, which causes them to lose a lot of potential damage or KO opportunities. Though it saddens me how useless Spin Charge feels compared to Spin Dash, literally all of spin charges damage or KO setups spin dash does better with safer defensive options due to being able to shield cancel it. Not to mention spin dash is the only spin attack where you can do spin dash > jump > cross up nair/uair/bair for a KO at above 140%.

 

[Heartstring]

With Nair, I like to use it to eat airdodges whenever possible. It's also a nice tool to use out of a Short-Hop Airdodge-Cancel. Lands with very little lag and allows you to get a hitbox out after the airdodge too.

Bonus points if you fastfall the short-hop

 

[Camalange]

we can also do semi sourspot nair (the one that deal 8%) to full jump bair on almost the whole cast between 90-120 at which point sourspot (5%) nair will link into it.

I can confirm this.

I did it yesterday and felt like a ****ing hero.

 

[Gregory2590]

How can an attack that FEELS so weak be so strong? The attack kills at such questionable percentages. I did a SDH into an attempted Uair, and I fired off a Nair by accident. Next thing you know, person is at the blast zone.

Unfortunately, since I was still scratching my head at the incident, I lost the match.