Data Moveset Thread - [COMPLETE]

[ROOOOY!]

I dunno if this has been mentioned or is even a thing, but is there something weird about the last hit of up smash? Knockback seems to be a lot higher if you hit with the very last hit then if you connect with the whole thing. Not that people should be jumping on top of you during an up smash, but yah.

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

Well dtilt gives us a free jablock KO setup if the opponent doesnt tech we can run > skid stop cancel > jab > jab > fsmash on a majority of the cast.

 

[Camalange]

2) Dtilt: I also used this quite a bit in brawl due to the minimal knockback for many combo potentials. Now it seems to do less damage, very slightly less knockback than ftilt. Has anyone found any practical application for his dtilt in sm4sh yet?

Dtilt can be a decent edgeguard as it sends horizontally now. Also has better range which improves our footsie game. I found it's actually pretty useful, just for different reasons now. Good poking tool.

3) Tricksy kills: I got a kill using the old school spring with opponent to uair trick. I haven’t succesfully pulled off a SD to bair in this game yet. Anyone know if that still works? Anyone else have any tricksy kill setups with sonic that I may be unaware of?

Not so much tricksy, but Sonic just has better KO options now. Bthrow is a beast, and Fthrow can kill too. Usmash and Uair's KO potential has been buffed.

5) Back throw into a wall: Arena ferox has a wall that I backthrew my friend into and we noticed that the hitting the wall/floor animation appeared pretty far in front of sonic and on the wall at the same time. We did it over and over trying to see if a tech would land him in front of me but to no avail. Just a strange glitch I noticed.

Interesting... I'll have to give that a try.

6) Forgot to add: When I know my opponent is trying to shield grab and I am approaching from the air in the front, I usually tap A like crazy to use nair into jab combo. Sometimes this works and sometimes it doesn’t. It appears there is different landing lag depending on when I started the nair. Anyone have info on this?

My guess is that you're just missing the autocancel timing.

I dunno if this has been mentioned or is even a thing, but is there something weird about the last hit of up smash? Knockback seems to be a lot higher if you hit with the very last hit then if you connect with the whole thing. Not that people should be jumping on top of you during an up smash, but yah.

Pretty sure this was the case with Brawl too. Last hit is where all the knockback is. In Brawl, you could SDI or just avoid the last hit of the Usmash which made it a pretty terrible KO option. Now, it's far harder to avoid and it has greatly increased knockback.

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

the only lackluster move in sonic's arsenal is his utilt imo which is disappointing because the move looks cool but it just lacks any significant KO power, or combo ability due to it's cooldown and lack of disjoint in front of it anymore. It has less cooldown i think than in brawl but that still doesn't really help it much. Though once i can really get a hang of skid stop canceling better i can utilized smash more. That move has a pretty decent disjoint all around the foot, i was able to hit people below the lip of FD and even a bit farther than the ledge with the move surprisingly.

 

[Camalange]

It's a decent anti-air at best, and can be comboed into out of the first hit of uair.

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

That's really the issue tho, it's a "decent anti air" where you could easily use Uair to cover all it's options and more in most cases. The only merit utilt has from my experience is it can net early KO's faster than Utilt on stages with platforms. Although i'm sure i'll figure out some type of other use for it down the road.

 

[Espy Rose]

You won't have time to jump > uair all the time.

 

[Camalange]

Yeah, I was just about to say that there's definitely times where Utilt is useful against air approaches and SH>Uair won't be ideal.

 

[MeekSpeedy]

This thread is gold. I love you guys.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Interesting things. I just hit people and approach smartly lol.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Interesting things. I just hit people and approach smartly lol.

 

[ROOOOY!]

I figured as much, the knockback is mad now though. Killed I think it was an Ike at 60something percent. Might be good against people on platforms, but they're not really a thing anymore.
I use utilt so much more than some other moves. Can't really find a practical use for dtilt/smash. I normally only use up air for characters directly above me, find utilt to be a much better anti air in most circumstances, if you've got say jigglypuff or another character who can weave aerials in and out, whilst the hitbox doesn't stay active for too long it's usually sufficient.

 

[Kinzer]

For Jigglypuff, I find Fair to be a much better use in terms of walling her out.

Of course; you can't just THROW it out there; because trading aerials with her is not in our favor. Running around and SHFairing, however, is a lovely thing against her.

 

[Espy Rose]

What?
Even with Rest's buff, it's ALWAYS in our favor to trade with her.

 

[The Pizza Guy]

Can we have the KO%s for moves added please?

 

[Kinzer]

What?
Even with Rest's buff, it's ALWAYS in our favor to trade with her.

I was talking aerial for aerial. I didn't take specials into mind.

 

[Espy Rose]

It doesn't matter. It's a universal for the MU.

 

[Kinzer]

It doesn't matter. It's a universal for the MU.

Unless you're trading with strong Neutral and Back air, everything else does less damage than Jiggly's aerials minus the few hits on her Dair. Speaking of Dairs, I don't think Sonic's is logical here.

I'm just saying trading blows for damage isn't optimal. I suppose it doesn't matter when a Forward or Back Throw at 130% will kill her, among other things; but, she can do more percent damage with her attacks.

 

[Camalange]

This thread has come a long way... Great work!

 

[Lizam]

Been playing around with Sonic's custom moves a bit, as the tourney I'm going to tomorrow will have them available. It's too late for me to adjust to them for tomorrow, but I found that some of them could have their uses. Standard 3 (Surprise attack), Side 2 (Hammer Spin Dash), Up 2 (Double Spring).

Standard 3 comes out a lot quicker and seems a lot more reliable at hitting opponents at a close range. It's also a lot more safer to use off stage because if it doesn't lock onto anything, you are sent slightly upwards. Still unsure about this one as I do like the bigger range and power of the original.

Wow, Side 2. I love this move! The height is great and can really throw your opponent off guard with how fast you hop up and down. The overall aerial snap/movement is faster than the default side 1. It's great when edge guarding players opponents who are recovering from below. Something to mix up with your dairs. I also find it great to hit people diagonally infront and above me and double jump cancel into an aerial. Comes out really fast, but its probably something a spinshot could achieve anyway?

Up 2's double spring is really interesting, but I'm just soooo used to the standard Up-Special that I keep miss timing this. It adds some variance/flexiability as your able to perform aerials etc during each spring. It's also fun to rain down springs on recovering players, despite the lower knockback. However, the over height off using both springs is still lower than the standard spring height. It also takes a lot longer to reach that height too, which is probably the main reason why I still prefer the standard spring

 

[True Blue Warrior]

This thread has come a long way... Great work!

Agreed. This is a great thread.

 

[XLR8TION]

hmm so apparently sonic can cancel his DA into a grab, pretty kewlz

 

[Sonic Orochi]

Can we have the KO%s for moves added please?

If someone could contribute with that info (with vectoring and all that stuff), then.. sure!

I can only use one 3DS and, therefore, the data would be totally innacurate (training mode means you'll trigger rage effect when testing for high percentages)..

 

[Camalange]

hmm so apparently sonic can cancel his DA into a grab, pretty kewlz

Yup, he can also do the roll-cancel grab. I think it's a Sm4sh universal tech.

DACUS is back too but 3DS controls L O L

I can only use one 3DS and, therefore, the data would be totally innacurate (training mode means you'll trigger rage effect when testing for high percentages)..

**** I keep forgetting about rage

Can't we call it something cooler like Gear Second or some kind of hxc anime cool guy **** why do we name everything so poorly

^ rage

 

[Sonic Orochi]

Yup, he can also do the roll-cancel grab. I think it's a Sm4sh universal tech.

DACUS is back too but 3DS controls L O L

**** I keep forgetting about rage

Can't we call it something cooler like Gear Second or some kind of hxc anime cool guy **** why do we name everything so poorly

^ rage

Well, technically I think you can spawn healing items to prevent that but I still wouldn't be able to test the vector effect.

 

[XLR8TION]

Yup, he can also do the roll-cancel grab. I think it's a Sm4sh universal tech.

DACUS is back too but 3DS controls L O L

**** I keep forgetting about rage

Can't we call it something cooler like Gear Second or some kind of hxc anime cool guy **** why do we name everything so poorly

^ rage

It is a a universal tech, I don't think its much use since his grab range is already improved from what I heard tho xD

 

[The Pizza Guy]

I like some of Sonic's customs in this game.

 

[Katakiri]

So I'm very convinced that Burning Spin Dash is Sonic's best Side-B by a long shot and the guide doesn't even begin to explain the real pros about this move (or any of the custom moves but that's w/e).

The lack of jump height mid-attack is actually a blessing in disguise. When Sonic jumps, he does so at short-hop height (while still keeping his Spin Dash hitbox) as opposed to the Spin Dash 1's full-hop height. It's bad for follow-ups but makes Spin Dash incredibly safe on shield when as once Sonic touches the ground again, he's in neutral stance where he can preform any action. What that means is that, unless you're fighting Sonic or Little Mac, the hop still travels faster than characters can drop shield and chase you so jumping when you make contact with Burning Spin Dash is safe regardless of whether or not they shielded.

The lack of a hop on start-up is made moot by the fact that Burning Spin Dash beats, destroys, and continues through weak, non-transcendent projectiles. These include things like Mega Man's Metal Blade and Crash Bombs, ROB's Gyro, Greninja's uncharged Water Shuriken, and Wario's Bike when riding it. No need for the move to have an invincible, telegraphed start-up hop when you can just eat projectiles like Wario. Speaking of Wario, Burning Spin Dash's fire hitbox reaches further than Wario's Chomp and beats Bike so that MU is probably in Sonic's favor this time around.

It also does a solid 30% at low percents with the combo of SD > Hop Hitbox > Sweet Spot N-Air.

Not using Burning Spin Dash is silly. Sillier than not using Double Spring (aka invincibility on demand) or Surprise Attack (the most threatening off-stage move in the game.)

With customs being legal in my region, I'm gonna have to main Sonic again. Custom moves make Sonic a high-tier threat, not quite Sheik or Greninja levels but goddamn are we up there.

 

[Espy Rose]

Double Spring sucks.

 

[Sonic Orochi]

So I'm very convinced that Burning Spin Dash is Sonic's best Side-B by a long shot and the guide doesn't even begin to explain the real pros about this move (or any of the custom moves but that's w/e).

The lack of jump height mid-attack is actually a blessing in disguise. When Sonic jumps, he does so at short-hop height (while still keeping his Spin Dash hitbox) as opposed to the Spin Dash 1's full-hop height. It's bad for follow-ups but makes Spin Dash incredibly safe on shield when as once Sonic touches the ground again, he's in neutral stance where he can preform any action. What that means is that, unless you're fighting Sonic or Little Mac, the hop still travels faster than characters can drop shield and chase you so jumping when you make contact with Burning Spin Dash is safe regardless of whether or not they shielded.

The lack of a hop on start-up is made moot by the fact that Burning Spin Dash beats, destroys, and continues through weak, non-transcendent projectiles. These include things like Mega Man's Metal Blade and Crash Bombs, ROB's Gyro, Greninja's uncharged Water Shuriken, and Wario's Bike when riding it. No need for the move to have an invincible, telegraphed start-up hop when you can just eat projectiles like Wario. Speaking of Wario, Burning Spin Dash's fire hitbox reaches further than Wario's Chomp and beats Bike so that MU is probably in Sonic's favor this time around.

It also does a solid 30% at low percents with the combo of SD > Hop Hitbox > Sweet Spot N-Air.

Not using Burning Spin Dash is silly. Sillier than not using Double Spring (aka invincibility on demand) or Surprise Attack (the most threatening off-stage move in the game.)

With customs being legal in my region, I'm gonna have to main Sonic again. Custom moves make Sonic a high-tier threat, not quite Sheik or Greninja levels but goddamn are we up there.

Well, I'm not going to use any custom moves at all, so if you've been using them and actually know some GOOD uses for them, just post them here and I'll put them on the guide.

BTW, sacrificing combo-ability up to the higher percents with TWO specials (rendering one of them practically useless in the process) in order to be safer on shield and eating through projectiles that can be circumvented in another way is not what I'd define as "best by a long shot", but w/e.

EDIT: oh, unless if you use SD3 and HA3, then maybe it's a thing, since HA3 will be useless on the stage and you can use SD3 to avoid projectiles instead.

And if you do use Double Spring and actually get something positive out of it, please do tell. I'm genuinely curious about that.

EDIT2: wow, just wow. I tried using Burning SD against a CPU and the first thing I noticed is how the move goes to a DEAD STOP when it hits a shield. That's just gross.

EDIT3: tried jumping before hitting the opponent. Forgot that this move acts like a SDR from an aerial spin. SD (not the move) ensues.

EDIT4: after messing around with SD3 for a bit, it does seem promising (spam: SD3->SDJ before reaching opponent->Uair->repeat), against CPUs, at least. They don't react well against the move and won't counterattack most of the time.

Against a competent human, I doubt it would bear much fruit in the long run. A well-timed spotdodge and a Smash attack should break this chain of spam easily enough. Or, even better, a backwards roll would put them right in front of a Sonic landing right after an aerial.

So, yeah, maybe I'm not understanding how you said the move should be used but I'm still not buying that this custom move is the "best by a long shot".

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

I've had some experience with using sonic's custom in tourney. I remember gimping someone using SD3 because the gravitational wind box spits them out from behind so i literally jumped off stage and just mashed B with the other direction and pushed them off stage after they were in special fall.

As for burning spin dash, the extra power helps us break through certain moves easier. I believe i was able to dash through jabs with the burning SD which is something our normal spin attacks can have trouble with.

That and double spring wrecks any characters who need to space their recovery like marth, marth, luigi, and the spacies just eat springs til they die.

His custom specials are very MU specific though with each one giving taking away one option and opening up a new one. Like Up- B 3 lets up recovery without the need to ledge snap and we can do things like uthrow to up-b for a safe hit but at the cost of no spring shenanigans

 

[Sonic Orochi]

I've had some experience with using sonic's custom in tourney. I remember gimping someone using SD3 because the gravitational wind box spits them out from behind so i literally jumped off stage and just mashed B with the other direction and pushed them off stage after they were in special fall.

Yeah, that seems promising but should work better once we can do a spinshot out of SC (i.e.: GC controllers).

As for burning spin dash, the extra power helps us break through certain moves easier. I believe i was able to dash through jabs with the burning SD which is something our normal spin attacks can have trouble with.

Not worth all of its downsides, IMO.

That and double spring wrecks any characters who need to space their recovery like marth, marth, luigi, and the spacies just eat springs til they die.

Do you have any replays with this in action? Seriously. I simply CANNOT gimp with that move AT ALL. Using it against Fox's or Falco's UpB seems to give their SECOND JUMP back.

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

sadly i don't but i i usually do the just drop the first spring to interrupt a side B or jump from them then as they charge up B i somple drop the 2nd spring and repeat if necessary. Granted you can only have one spring falling at a time but it''s certainly more effective than doing our normal spring landing and then trying to spring again.

 

[Sonic Orochi]

I must be doing something very wrong then, because I simply can't get a kill using that strat.

I find that spacing yourself with the Springs takes so much time and precision that you're better off going for a Fair or Bair.

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

yea doing that is probably more guaranteed for a KO but i find double spring to be safer if you know when to time the spring vs their recoveries because of the sole factor that you yourself aren't going off stage as much to commit to a bair or fair.

 

[Sonic Orochi]

In that case, why not just use a normal, regular Spring? It deals twice the damage and has WAY more knockback.

Yeah, sorry, I'm still not convinced that Double Spring is a good move.

 

[Anthinus]

I did a little compilation of Dair spikes and gimps. Quality of the vid is meh, because I got no capture card for my 3DS. But at least I can share with you the way I set up my opponents for dair.

 

[Sonic Orochi]

dat SDJ->Dair

 

[Anthinus]

dat SDJ->Dair

Sexy. You can kill people around 50%-70% (varies between characters) with that. Lower than that you could get footstooled.
I think (not sure 100%) that SDJ->Dair is inescapeable if done correctly. I suspect that SDJ hitstun is enough for dair to hit before the victim could respond... Plus, if done correctly in training mode Dair will be count as part of combo after SDJ.

Its incredible hard to pull against tall targets like Bowser, DDD, etc. But against most of the cast is kind of easy to do with some practice.

 

[The Pizza Guy]

Sonic looks so much fun, can't wait 'till I get SSB4