Data Moveset Thread - [COMPLETE]

[Myst_R]

About that B reverse I seem not to be able to get the timing. I've watched the video of My Smash Corner teaching how to B reverse with Sheik and I managed to do it with Sheik but I don't get the Sonic's timing.

Is there an other way/timing to reverse Sonic's HA ? I guess that a succesful reverse B would result in Sonic facing the opposite direction he faced when I input the HA

Or maybe I'm totally wrong and this mechanic doesn't work as Sheik's one? From what I know I need to press B and immediatly after that put the analog stick in the opposite direction, right ?

 

[Sonic Orochi]

Instead of B-reversing it, just do a turnaround-B.

http://smashboards.com/threads/turnaround-bs-b-reverses-and-wavebounces-know-the-difference.368536/

And I guess B-reverse is useless for the HA because the move negates all of your horizontal momentum.

 

[Myst_R]

Thanks !

You're right, I actually was looking for the turnaround-B but as I read earlier on this thread you were speaking about "reversed-B" I thought that was what you were talking about

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

also just encase you try you can B-reverse, and turnaround-B Side B, but you can't B-reverse or turnaround-B down B.

 

[Heartstring]

Instead of B-reversing it, just do a turnaround-B.

http://smashboards.com/threads/turnaround-bs-b-reverses-and-wavebounces-know-the-difference.368536/

And I guess B-reverse is useless for the HA because the move negates all of your horizontal momentum.

Yeah, B-reversing it does almost nothing to your momentum. Although turnaround B is helpful for making sure to send the opponent a certain direction on hit, or mixing it what direction you go if it hits shield :3

 

[Camalange]

I think I'm going to steal your changelog idea. Makes more sense than to only make a post that gets lost in the thread.

 

[Sonic Orochi]

Pretty sure everyone knows about this already but:

So, yeah, looks like our DSmash can be used to hit opponents when they're vulnerable when snapping to the edge. Need more people testing this, though..

 

[Camalange]

I angled a Fsmash right before Ike was going to grab the ledge horizontally from SideB and wrecked him.

I'd have to watch again though but I'm almost positive he was at or just about to snap to the ledge.

 

[Sonic Orochi]

I think I remember that one, but IIRC, he recovered way above the edge, I believe.

The DSmash was hitting a DHD recovering from below FD.

 

[Espy Rose]

Dsmash is okay for trumped regrabs on the ledge, but down angled fsmash is stronger.

 

[Gregory2590]

One weaker alternative is to use a "sourspot" dash attack since one of the ending hitboxes(before the kick I believe) for some reason have spiking properties.

 

[Camalange]

One weaker alternative is to use a "sourspot" dash attack since one of the ending hitboxes(before the kick I believe) for some reason have spiking properties.

Is there a spike hitbox?

I know I often land the hit where if the ending doesn't connect, it just pushes people really far as if it were a windbox (usually happens when I catch someone mid-air and the dash attack gets caught by the ledge).

 

[Sonic Orochi]

I love the angled FSmash as much as the next Sonic main but it seems impossible to be frame perfect and hit people in that vulnerability window with it (that is, considering that its hitboxes can actually reach the opponent, which I doubt anyway).

I've done it a few times with the DSmash, though. I once even stage spiked Falco's recovery in Smashville with it.

Granted, it's pretty much impossible to be able to use it reasonably well in a normal match, but we do have some other interesting alternatives.

The first one is a very reliable, albeit weak, option: Spring. Its hitbox stays active long enough to catch the opponents in that vulnerability frame. It's incredibly easy to do that, specially if the enemy has a very predictable recovery move. Plus, if we position the Spring well, we can stage spike with it.

The second one is a bit more risky (I think you already know where I'm going with this) but it's almost as reliable as well, due to its lingering hitbox. Yes, I'm talking about the Dair. Roll towards the edge, short hop backwards and go for it. Practically guaranteed spike hitbox. Just be sure to spam that jump button for that ASAP double jump and always Spring back facing the stage.

 

[Gregory2590]

Is there a spike hitbox?

I know I often land the hit where if the ending doesn't connect, it just pushes people really far as if it were a windbox (usually happens when I catch someone mid-air and the dash attack gets caught by the ledge).

Well, the times I pull it off always involves someone grabbing the ledge with their invincibility gone. When I hit them with the specific part of the dash attack, then get sent flying at a downwards(around 200 degreesish) angle. That may or may not be what you're talking about.


Edit: Upon further inspection, it happens at the BEGINNING of the dash. The knockback isn't anything impressive though. Though I could've sworn I recall sending them much farther. oh well

stuff

Let's not forget the Bair stage spike. It's quite underrated even though it also has its share of risks.

 

[Sonic Orochi]

Just tried the Bair and, after very little testing, I found that it's not as good for two reasons:

1) I found its timing to be even more of a chore than Dair. However, it might be just a matter of preference..

2) The stage spike is more stage-dependant than ever: the enemy will be sent towards the stage at practically the ledge height. More often than not it will result in a horizontal knockback rather than a diagonal one.

 

[Espy Rose]

I love the angled FSmash as much as the next Sonic main but it seems impossible to be frame perfect and hit people in that vulnerability window with it (that is, considering that its hitboxes can actually reach the opponent, which I doubt anyway)..

What?
I...



What?

Down angled fsmash hits everybody during the second ledge grab, and it's easier than anything else to do with this character in this game.

Just... what?

 

[Sonic Orochi]

I'm guessing you didn't even look at the video I posted before.

This has nothing to do with grabbing the ledge without invincibility.

 

[Espy Rose]

Why would I look at it?
I ain't got time for that nonsense.

 

[Sonic Orochi]

Welp, you got time to spit out nonsense without even knowing the subject at hand, so..

 

[Espy Rose]

You still bad.

 

[Camalange]

What a read.

Well, I think angled F-Smash can still get the job done but Dsmash might be less forecasted. That's the problem with Bair and Dair too... So apparent that it's happening and the timing I'm sure is more specific since they can see the set-up and everything.

I think the advantage of angled Fsmash though is the amount of range it has is insane and it's least expected when you're that far from the ledge. Dsmash is probably the safest/easiest option.

I saw a similar video where someone ran off the ledge and did a rising Nair, which is interesting because the timing is less strict due to all of its active frames. You can really cover the ledge with hitboxes/active frames with Nair the most efficiently.

 

[Sonic Orochi]

Rising Nairs and Bairs (didn't consider this an option when trying the move earlier) can definitely be used, although with a few problems:

1) you'll most likely end with a sourspotted move, since the vulnerability window is so small;
2) you won't get a very good knockback with Nair (i.e.: the most you can get out of it is 12% and that's it);
3) as I've tested before, the stage spike heavily depends on the stage. Even if there's a small wall before the stage curves inside (think Omega Lylat), the opponent won't be sent diagonally (might be character-dependant, though);
4) these options also rely a lot on the opponent's move, specially if they have a lingering, active hitbox.

 

[Funkermonster]

Some situational anti-air combo I like to do sometimes:

Utilt > Fair > Fair

I avoid doing it against characters with good Dairs like Villager though, the nerf to the disjoint from Brawl really sucks for me.

 

[Camalange]

Rising Nairs and Bairs (didn't consider this an option when trying the move earlier) can definitely be used, although with a few problems:

1) you'll most likely end with a sourspotted move, since the vulnerability window is so small;
2) you won't get a very good knockback with Nair (i.e.: the most you can get out of it is 12% and that's it);
3) as I've tested before, the stage spike heavily depends on the stage. Even if there's a small wall before the stage curves inside (think Omega Lylat), the opponent won't be sent diagonally (might be character-dependant, though);
4) these options also rely a lot on the opponent's move, specially if they have a lingering, active hitbox.

I also don't like relying on a stage spike, as that can be tech'd.

the nerf to the disjoint from Brawl really sucks for me.

Hm?

The last hit of Fair is still stupidly disjointed and I love it.

 

[Funkermonster]

Hm?

The last hit of Fair is still stupidly disjointed and I love it.

I meant on the Utilt, not Fair. Didn't it have a disjoint in Brawl but not anymore?

 

[Camalange]

I meant on the Utilt, not Fair. Didn't it have a disjoint in Brawl but not anymore?

Ah, you were concerning me for a moment.

It probably doesn't. Utilt feels worse in this game and I almost never use it.

 

[Espy Rose]

Utilt is more or less the same, except it kills a little earlier.

 

[Funkermonster]

Utilt is more or less the same, except it kills a little earlier.

So I can keep doing my Utilt > Fairs then and get away with it? Great!

 

[Camalange]

Utilt is more or less the same, except it kills a little earlier.

I can't pinpoint what it is about Utilt, but I just have this arbitrary feeling that it's utility is worse.

It killing slightly earlier isn't a buff either really, as everything in this game kills at weirder percents early on.

I even like VSDJ more as an anti-air... It's pretty good now.

 

[Espy Rose]

Utilt isn't worse. Everything else is just better.

 

[Camalange]

Utilt isn't worse. Everything else is just better.

I honestly think that's what it is. I just can't find a lot of uses for it when there are superior options for the same situation.

 

[Sonic Orochi]

One weaker alternative is to use a "sourspot" dash attack since one of the ending hitboxes(before the kick I believe) for some reason have spiking properties.

You'll be surprised about how unreliable that is (for opponents hanging on to the ledge, I mean).

I've compiled some data regarding the ledge snap vulnerability and which attacks can actually hit people grabbing the ledge without invincibility. Do keep in mind that the ledge snap vulnerability was only tested against a recovering CPU in training mode (aka up B from below).



The first two columns (Spring and Dair) are about the ledge snap vulnerability. The rest of the columns are about attacking when people are hanging onto a ledge without being invincible.

Can cancel: means that the opponent's recovery move may actually nullify the Spring;
Hit: means that you can potentially be hit out of the Dair by the opponent's recovery move;
USmash: front means facing the opponent (opposite of back); high % means that at low %s only the very first hit will connect; standing means standing near the edge, as opposed to hyphen smashing;
Animation-dependant: means that the move can only connect during certain frames of the opponent's ledge hanging animation. Red means that the frames are towards the end of the animation and blue, the beginning.

 

[Sonic Orochi]

EDIT: if you've already read what was here, try not to spread the news just yet. I'm saving this stuff for a tech vid :D After the video is up I'll re-edit here with the info I'd posted then. just go see the vid

Spoiler

I'd edit this into that other message but this certainly deserves its very own post

EDIT: just a little teaser for you people. Don't get too excited!

 

[Espy Rose]

Oh. You're hittin Rob because his hands are touching your hitbox onstage, ezpz

 

[Camalange]

EDIT: if you've already read what was here, try not to spread the news just yet. I'm saving this stuff for a tech vid :D After the video is up I'll re-edit here with the info I'd posted then.

Spoiler

I'd edit this into that other message but this certainly deserves its very own post

EDIT: just a little teaser for you people. Don't get too excited!

I still also want to see this in comparison to down-angled Fsmash. The Dsmash is cool but the range and disjoint on Fsmash allows for some nasty possibilities (probably wouldn't get a stage spike like the Dsmash does).

Oh. You're hittin Rob because his hands are touching your hurtbox onstage, ezpz

Does ROB actually extend his own hurtbox that way though?

 

[Sonic Orochi]

I still also want to see this in comparison to down-angled Fsmash. The Dsmash is cool but the range and disjoint on Fsmash allows for some nasty possibilities (probably wouldn't get a stage spike like the Dsmash does).

I was never able to hit them with the angled FSmash. Maybe I didn't try enough times but I just couldn't.

Oh. You're hittin Rob because his hands are touching your hurtbox onstage, ezpz

So, how many double jumps does ROB have again?

 

[Espy Rose]

Yes. Why wouldn't he?

@so: ROB has to grab the ledge eventually. Get good.

 

[Sonic Orochi]

Exactly, you're almost there.

Now try explaining why would ROB be hit while grabbing the ledge if grabbing the ledge grants you invincibility.

 

[Camalange]

I was never able to hit them with the angled FSmash. Maybe I didn't try enough times but I just couldn't.

Hm, maybe that's the case. I could try looking into it as well.

Yes. Why wouldn't he?

Because this is Smash and just because a character has a visual cue of an extension of their body doesn't mean Sakurai actually put a hitbox or a hurtbox there.

Sometimes, he even puts them there when there is no visual reason for it to be there either. What a world!

 

[Espy Rose]

Those instances are far outweighed by examples where a character's hurtbox is exactly where it needs to be.

Orobad: Because that ROB's playing against you.