Meta Knight Officially Banned!

[SmashChu]

Implying the people playing Metaknight weren't improving.

I'm sure you don't know any other compatitive game works. The reason you were seeing other characters doing well at MLG was because their is more for their character to gain. Paart of the reason Zerg is so powerful now in Starcraft 2 is because they advanced their game while the other races really didn't, especially Protoss. Lower characters have more to gain, so they move faster. Yes, Meta-Knight players are getting better, but the lower tiers will get better faster. Your not going anywhere else when your the top.

This is a classic example of the "it's not the character its the player" argument.
Yes, skill has more influence in a match than character selection. That is how the
those C and D tier mains can win against Mk. But if two players of the EXACT same
skill went up against each other, one using Mk and the other using, say... Link, who would win?

... Who do you think?

So yes, skill and weaknesses of the player is important, but Mk still matters.

C and D characters wins because they play the match-up better, but if C and D characters can do it, I'm not sure why it's so hard for those A and B characters. The fact that people don't understand is there will be strong characters in fighting games. It could be like MvC2 where the roster is a mess or SF4 where everything is pretty even and any characters can win to a degree). The point I was making is if lower characters can win, than the character probably isn't broken and just you play the match-up wrong. Nothing surprising.

I do think this is the first game where Smash players have dealt with a powerful character and their response is ban rather than get better. Much quicker.

 

[Alien Vision]

SmashChump, nobody is going to take you seriously.

I cannot keep a straight face at all myself.

MK being banned is one of the best decisions, if not toughest, ever made.

 

[Krystedez]

Actually, Chu, the more people continue to fight against the top players with MK, the more those top MKs learn the matchups, and regardless of how much more powerful the players get, the characters can only go so high... That's about it. Meta Knight has a limit, sure, but the other characters' limits are far lower than Meta Knight's. It's when players like Poltergust, ADHD, Ally, and Brood get to the highest level they can get with their character, ruin the MK player, that the MK player comes back even stronger in that match up because now they KNOW how to play it.

In short, MKs have all the tools needed to make every matchup a +1 or better, it's just when they don't know how to use those tools they get defeated.

 

[Big Moose]

God is real!

 

[Le vieux lapin]

I feel like all I can do here is just chill people out. You guys have
such deep perspectives on the metagame (when you focus on the topic) that
I get lost sometimes. My level of experience often
fails to properly provide me with relevant arguments, so sry.

@Smashchu- Yes, this is the first smash game where we have officially banned a character. I think.

But as for your argument, you assume in it that "broken" characters cannot be beaten by lower
tier characters. That argument goes against your last one, where you supported the idea that
the character selection was irrelevant, and the win or loss of a player depended entirely upon their skill.

Big Moose. Prove it bro. On a different thread. We are busy here.

 

[Big Moose]

Big Moose. Prove it bro. On a different thread. We are busy here.

Pbbbfft. .

 

[Vinylic.]

TAKE YOURSELF TO GRYFFINDOR.

We're busy.

 

[Big Moose]

TAKE YOURSELF TO GRYFFINDOR.

We're busy.

You're a lesbian!

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I feel like all I can do here is just chill people out. You guys have
such deep perspectives on the metagame (when you focus on the topic) that
I get lost sometimes. My level of experience often
fails to properly provide me with relevant arguments, so sorry.

You do realize I have never played in a competitive Brawl tourney before?

-----------------------------

Also, I want to clarify something before people suggest more Patching: Remember that not every player can practice with those patches. Some might only have access to a computer in a Library, or one without the proper ports to put those hacks in. Also, as I said before, it's a real pain in the butt for every player to buy one SD Card to practice hacks. Especially when their Wii may not be able to use them. That's over 200 dollars spent on "fixing" a broken character. A lot of that money is better spent on gas to get there.

Even with Metaknight gone, one can easily practice with the other characters without any need for extra stuff that's not intended for the game as is. Before anyone says Meta Knight was intended as well, keep in mind that he was put in there with no good sense of balance. If the game actually has some balance, we wouldn't need to ban MK at all. Truthfully, I don't like that we had to, but I completely understand why. No, this isn't a jab at Sakurai, as the game wasn't meant to be balanced. We have worked with what he had, and so far, no matter how much we practice to fight MK, he still turns out strong in the end. He's not in God Tier for no reason, after all.

 

[Sinji]

seriously delux?

****ing issue infractions for insults at least.

Agreed. for real? he's insults for results.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Let's not get spammy with this thread.

That leads to locking.

 

[Le vieux lapin]

Hyper Falcon you should totally go to tourneys. They teach you so much and
really get you good practice.

I also agree with your argument, any character put in a God tier is... a little much.

Also agree with the patch comment, the ban is far easier and cheaper. Though
people often counter that it was just lazy. I'd rather go lazy than pay money and STILL lose
to MK mains.

Sad, but below statement is true.

 

[Big Moose]

Meta knight is banned.

Close thread.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Hyper Falcon you should totally go to tourneys. They teach you so much and
really get you good practice.

I also agree with your argument, any character put in a God tier is... a little much.

Also agree with the patch comment, the ban is far easier and cheaper. Though
people often counter that it was just lazy. I'd rather go lazy than pay money and STILL lose
to MK mains.

Sad, but below statement is true.

I don't have the time, money, nor do I drive. That, and I mostly don't talk a big game because I can't bring it. I enjoy researching the games, though. That I find fun. I'm definitely a casual player due to my skill, but I do respect the people that work very hard for what they do. Plus, I know I won't get far, so unless it's in a convenient spot for me(like in town), I probably won't enter. But thank you for the vote of confidence. To be fair, I'm lazy too, but I wouldn't call this an exact lazy route either.

Giving up on a broken character is a fair statement, though.

 

[Alien Vision]

^ HyperFalcon is too good.

 

[Scatz]

In short, MKs have all the tools needed to make every matchup a +1 or better, it's just when they don't know how to use those tools they get defeated.

This is what I've been explaining to people. MK mains think MUs are hard cause they don't understand it; however, when some lower leveled player comes in and ***** the character that person has had trouble with due to knowing how to play the MU, it shows that even top MK players aren't always the best choices to use.

Also, HyperFalcon is ****** people. Kudos to you for making sense dude.

 

[Krystedez]

I love your sig, Scatz.

Yoshi: "NOM! Oh fu I missed."
MK: "PUNISHPUNISHPUNISHPUNISHPUNISHPUNISHPUNISHPUNISH~!" (dthrow ends)
Yoshi: "waaaahhh~~... WAAAAAHHHHH TRICKED YA!"
MK: Oh !@#$ this !@#$ (walks away)

 

[SmashChu]

Actually, Chu, the more people continue to fight against the top players with MK, the more those top MKs learn the matchups, and regardless of how much more powerful the players get, the characters can only go so high... That's about it. Meta Knight has a limit, sure, but the other characters' limits are far lower than Meta Knight's. It's when players like Poltergust, ADHD, Ally, and Brood get to the highest level they can get with their character, ruin the MK player, that the MK player comes back even stronger in that match up because now they KNOW how to play it.

In short, MKs have all the tools needed to make every matchup a +1 or better, it's just when they don't know how to use those tools they get defeated.

Faulty assumption. If that was the case, Yun would be unbeatable in SF4.

Tyhe problem is meta-game. I'm pointing out Yoshi and Sonic so much as to make a point. It has nothing to do with the character. yes, the character is good. But players can and have beaten him. So it's not impossible. It's more that people want the easy road rather than deal with the character. The solution is just get better and learn.

Let's take that same assumption. If Meta-Knight's meta-game can advance by him fighting other characters, that means that everyone stays even and the meta-game never changes. But here we have Marvel vs Capcom 2 where Sentinel gets better. So the meta-game advanced and a character got better. here we have Starcraft 2 where Zerg players learned to deal with early pressure and still fast expand. By yorr logic, they would never win because Terran and Protoss are still moving.

It's also not just the characters being played better but the game being played differently too. The game played in 2008 is not the same game as now. I know Red Ryu among others have made that point.

What I'm saying is that Meta-Knight beats you not because he's good but because you don't know what to do with it. Void Rays and Mutas beat low level player too.

I feel like all I can do here is just chill people out. You guys have
such deep perspectives on the metagame (when you focus on the topic) that
I get lost sometimes. My level of experience often
fails to properly provide me with relevant arguments, so sry.

@Smashchu- Yes, this is the first smash game where we have officially banned a character. I think.

But as for your argument, you assume in it that "broken" characters cannot be beaten by lower
tier characters. That argument goes against your last one, where you supported the idea that
the character selection was irrelevant, and the win or loss of a player depended entirely upon their skill.

Big Moose. Prove it bro. On a different thread. We are busy here.

It does depend on the skill. I'm saying players need to get better to beat Meta-Knight and banning him isn't going to solve anything. I'm saying that X character can beat Meta-Knight so they need to keep working to do so. It's the same argument.

 

[Scatz]

Haha, thanks. It was one of my most recent highlights playing this game. Cause of it, the yoshi boards label me as a robot now. XD

 

[Krystedez]

Faulty assumption. If that was the case, Yun would be unbeatable in SF4.

Here...we go...

Tyhe problem is meta-game. I'm pointing out Yoshi and Sonic so much as to make a point. It has nothing to do with the character. yes, the character is good. But players can and have beaten him. So it's not impossible.

No one ever said that it's impossible to beat Meta Knight. Everyone says that it is simply too much for characters to be able to fight Meta Knight and Meta Knight has a lot more options and a very high chance at winning the game. It's no longer a game of skill or mind games or outplaying the opponent. It's whether or not your opponent knows the match up, and if they do, you're not going to win unless some random element wins you the match, like tripping. The Meta Knight, if playing smart, will win. And by playing smart, they are already outplaying their opponent.

Take a Pit vs Toon Link match. This match is so dead even, it's not even funny. Pit has to work just as hard as Toon Link to get a kill in, to get damage in, to avoid damage, and to camp successfully. This matchup relies on many elements, rather than just matchup experience; it relies on mind games, the ability of one player to outplay the opponent, and
who has better "anything" in terms of play style. If I had better spacing, or he had better control, or if I had better reads, or if he had better mix ups... The list goes on.

With Meta Knight, take ALL of that away, and you are left with "Does the Meta Knight know the match up enough to take out the opponent who DOES?" If the answer is yes, it's more than likely the Meta Knight will jog all over the opponent's face no matter what kind of development that character has gone through in the meta game.

It's more that people want the easy road rather than deal with the character. The solution is just get better and learn.

No it's more that people want to ban a character who has dominated the meta game even with other characters attempting to learn and get better, learn and get better, learn and get better. No matter what, this endless cycle will end with Meta Knight on top. It's not a question of whether Meta Knight is hard, it's an answer of the fact that Meta Knight IS on top and remains on top no matter how far we into in the meta game. We take 1 step forward, Meta Knight takes 2 steps forward, and then steps on your !@#$ing foot for even daring to step forward. And we continue to limp.

Let's take that same assumption. If Meta-Knight's meta-game can advance by him fighting other characters, that means that everyone stays even and the meta-game never changes. But here we have Marvel vs Capcom 2 where Sentinel gets better. So the meta-game advanced and a character got better. here we have Starcraft 2 where Zerg players learned to deal with early pressure and still fast expand. By yorr logic, they would never win because Terran and Protoss are still moving.

This is a faulty connection to completely different game titles with different levels of metagame development and strategy. Plus you're using an assumption, no less, and not actual data, which the pro-ban side has, not simply "oh wah, MK is too good, ban him cuz I dont want to deal with him", that's quite an ignorant viewpoint.

It's also not just the characters being played better but the game being played differently too. The game played in 2008 is not the same game as now. I know Red Ryu among others have made that point.

We made connections and evaluations of the game's development between certain periods, and have found that we as a player base have been doing WORSE and WORSE against Meta Knight. That's the only thing that I've seen being brought to the surface as far as the years being concerned.

What I'm saying is that Meta-Knight beats you not because he's good but because you don't know what to do with it. Void Rays and Mutas beat low level player too.

And what I'm saying is that Meta Knights who DO lose don't lose because we found a way to deal with him or that's actually likely (or possible) to beat him, it's because they don't know the match up yet, and as it has been proven, they learn and then the matchup is defined yet again more in his favor. There was never a question of MK's dominance over the entire cast, and now he's dominating even more because we're running out of tricks to pull out of sleeves to throw at him.

It does depend on the skill. I'm saying players need to get better to beat Meta-Knight and banning him isn't going to solve anything. I'm saying that X character can beat Meta-Knight so they need to keep working to do so. It's the same argument.

Banning him solved one thing; we will no longer have to deal with his match up, and now can focus on other match ups to further the meta game.

What I'm saying is that X character can not beat Meta Knight no matter how much the metagame of that character developes if the Meta Knight becomes aware of the character's newfound development or strategy. Hell, even Meta Knights (as has been said) that are not high level players, but simply have different strategies, playing styles, or mindsets, are able to completely dominate other characters' users who would otherwise give a high level MK trouble.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Thank you, Alien Vision and Scatz.

@SmashChu: I already explained why Marvel VS Capcom 2 isn't a feasible comparison. The meta-game revolves around playing 3 characters at once. In this game, any one player can only play one character at once. Their meta-games are completely different because of how the gameplay works. Please stop comparing them. If you want to compare it to something, atleast compare it strictly to a 1 vs 1 game. Or a 2 player vs 2 player game. Both are understandable.

What actually happens is that both players practice. Meta Knight will always be the most powerful character in Brawl outside of hacks. This is because he IS. In the meta-game, players have gotten better constantly. If a player can get better against Meta Knight, the MK player can get better against them. The fact of the matter is, Meta Knight will never be weaker than any other character at the highest of skill.

What you keep forgetting is the only reason we've had a chance to get better against him is because we had to restrict the Meta Knight players. Which also means that history shows that we've only done better because of the restrictions, not because of player skill alone. If we never restricted any character, Meta Knight would be winning MORE Tournaments. You cannot deny that we've had to weaken him with rules to make him legal. Because we did.

 

[Conviction]

Smashchu shut up.

You always compare us to another fighting game -________-

 

[Alien Vision]

Thank you, Alien Vision and Scatz.

What did I do?

 

[link2702]

smashchu's a casual who doesn't even understand anything about competitive smash, so him even saying anything like he knows what he's talking about is *facepalm* worthy.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I won't say this should have been done from the start of the game, but I won't say it shouldn't have been done at all either. I would have liked to see this have happened around oh, late 2009 though. I personally can't say whether I see this ban staying in effect or not, but I am very interested in the effect it will have on the metagame, even if it is not permanent. Which is why I'd have liked to see it happen a little sooner, since Smash U may well be out before any meta-changing long-term effects of this have a chance to happen.

But hey, with Metaknight finally gone, Ice Climber usage may well go up, which in turn will give Yoshi players something to get excited about, only to fall when other high tiers snub him out, and then those high tiers' counters will rise and fall, and the metagame can finally get that Melee/Starcrafty shiftiness every few months that keeps competitive games alive well past their time.

Personally I still hate the **** out of Brawl but at least now there can be an actual evolving game, howevermany tents may be pitched in it.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Comparing Yun to Meta Knight is the funniest thing I've read in this thread. GGs

 

[Krystedez]

He made a valid argument, read past his first sentance.

Still I feel like this will go back and forth and if he makes another reference to some other fighting game I'm just going to post the funniest, trollingest image in the entire face of the planet.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

What did I do?

"^ HyperFalcon is too good." wasn't a compliment?

 

[Conviction]

He made a valid argument, read past his first sentance.

Still I feel like this will go back and forth and if he makes another reference to some other fighting game I'm just going to post the funniest, trollingest image in the entire face of the planet.

Too late.

 

[Alien Vision]

"^ HyperFalcon is too good." wasn't a compliment?

Oh. I agree with you. I thought I did something worthy though. Like, I don't know, CONTRIBUTE?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Oh. I agree with you. I thought I did something worthy though. Like, I don't know, CONTRIBUTE?

Fair enough, but I take what I can. I wouldn't mind more content-filled posts, though.

 

[Alien Vision]

Fair enough, but I take what I can. I wouldn't mind more content-filled posts, though.

Sometimes the shortest, and simplest responses are the best.

 

[Conviction]

this is true

 

[Vinylic.]

smashchu's a casual who doesn't even understand anything about competitive smash, so him even saying anything like he knows what he's talking about is *facepalm* worthy.

What do you consider to be? That's a question you don't want to answer.

I don't know about competitive smash. Doesn't stop me to figure out about frames and MUs. Especially a moveset description. like, what's a dair?

 

[Conviction]

Why not?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Sometimes the shortest, and simplest responses are the best.

Well, as long as you get the point across. I prefer to get it across with a decent amount of information, if only to keep the debate going without resorting to insults.(no not calling you out)

-------------------

@link2702: I didn't see any "casual" stuff in his paragraphs. Sounded pretty competitive to me. Attack the arguments, not the person, honestly.

Also, probably should clear something up: You can play casual, but understand the competitive scene. You can also play the competitive game and give a very casual response. Some players may be casuals because they don't wish to be competitive in gameplay, but can still understand it completely. They choose not to apply it. It's the response that matters.

 

[NinjaFoxX]

speaking of Yun
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KrTDUqZirw&list=FL_kdBdUkrK9P0TNaI9AfPtQ&index=3

 

[4nace]

It's too late imo. This seems more like a competitive community trying to revive its playerbase. Honestly, it seems like we'll just have to wait until the next smash bros to see how that fares. In the meantime, there is still Melee. Or you can go play league of legends if youre looking for a competitive fix. There are also Capcom's two big fighters with tons of fans and tournaments running now.

Brawl had a good run and even saw some MLG action, but the game just isn't enough fun to watch at the top level to be considered an E-sport. A top MK vs a top IC is the most boring thing ever. So are many of the top matches (aye most of them involve MK, but usually Falco isn't very fun to watch either).

-4nace

 

[OmegaXXII]

I may be jumping to conclusions, but metaknight has 6 jumps so I'm thinking I still have at least four left. In arguing i say youre ganondorf level; offstage, and you've used your second jump. ''Any difficult change that is endorsed by the official rule set'' will see that rule set ignored and the setters sent to an island far far away.

Impressive post, there should be a like button for each post, I agree with this.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Lets have a religious debate.

This actually made me laugh out loud. Kudos to you.