Q&A Mechanics & Techniques Discussion

[Tythaeus]

I'm having trouble trying to ledge trump. Whenever I attempt It I find myself going way to far down. Pointers would be greatly appreciated.

 

[thehard]

I'm having trouble trying to ledge trump. Whenever I attempt It I find myself going way to far down. Pointers would be greatly appreciated.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vVug_cxA6A&feature=player_detailpage#t=152 This helped me a lot.

 

[Tythaeus]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vVug_cxA6A&feature=player_detailpage#t=152 This helped me a lot.

Thanks man.

 

[thehard]

Thanks man.

Also, I'm not sure if this is new information to you, but for the longest time I didn't realize people were doing ledge trump -> slow/fast fall -> immediate short hop combined with immediate b-air to pull punishes off.

 

[Torterra]

So I'm somewhat new to the competitive scene, and I'm not understanding what a wave bounce and frame trap is. Any explanations would be appreciated. Any other advanced techniques I should look up? I'veseen perfect pivoting and edge pivoting, but am I missing something? Thanks

 

[TheReflexWonder]

A frame trap is a combination of moves that has a gap between them too small to punish, but "looks" unsafe. It's called a frame trap because it is based on the frame data of those moves. A simple example would be Sheik's F-Air on shield -> Jab; it encourages players to try to shieldgrab after the F-Air, but the Jab would hit the opponent before their grab would come out.

 

[Torterra]

Thanks so much, it makes sense now

 

[MrTeddyBear]

And a wavebounce is the combination of a turnaround B and a B-reverse. A turnaround B is done by flicking (or tapping, as long as you let go before you press B) the opposite direction that you're facing and then pressing B. This will let you turn around and perform your B-move while still moving the direction where you were originally moving. A B-reverse is basically performed the same way, except first you press B, THEN you tap/flick the opposite direction you're facing. This lets you turn around while changing your momentum to move to the other direction that you tapped.

So a wavebounce would be done by first doing a turnaround B, then a B-reverse right after. It takes time getting used to and it's easier to do it with regular and side B moves, but with up and down B moves it's a lot harder. You can see this thread for more information on the three techniques.

 

[Pazx]

So I'm somewhat new to the competitive scene, and I'm not understanding what a wave bounce and frame trap is. Any explanations would be appreciated. Any other advanced techniques I should look up? I'veseen perfect pivoting and edge pivoting, but am I missing something? Thanks

Info on wavebouncing (it's the exact same as in Brawl) can be found here.

Edit: 'd

 

[Torterra]

Thanks so much both of you

 

[Azazel]

I found something pretty cool. there is a small window where you can immediately grab the ledge after a footstool. This gives you a decent frame advantage allowing for some silly follow ups. Although this is impractical because you need to be just under the ledge when you footstool.

basically Footstool insta Ledge snap

Spoiler

Though it suddenly becomes viable when my boy Megaman can combo into one get a double footstool utilizing the edge slip mechanic

F-tilt > Edgeslip > Footstool > Ledge snap > Ledge Drop > Footstool

 

[Strider_123]

do characters have different raising up shields and rolling?

 

[Shaya]

All shields are frame 1, rolls are different.

 

[Strider_123]

All shields are frame 1, rolls are different.

did anybody make a list of rolls from best to worst?

 

[Azazel]

did anybody make a list of rolls from best to worst?

There's this video

It also comes with a spreadsheet if you look in the description
If you're looking for frame data then IDK.

 

[Strider_123]

There's this video

It also comes with a spreadsheet if you look in the description
If you're looking for frame data then IDK.

sorry to bother you but when reading the spread sheet how you know what the numbers mean? i wanted to look at end leg but im not sure if larger numbers are better or worse. thanks!

 

[Azazel]

 

[Eonn]

Not sure if this is classified as a mechanic/technique, but how do you play unpredictably? I use Jiggs who seems to have very limited options for approaching, so I'm stuck with short hop aerials and sometimes a throw or dash. However the short hops are very predictable and easy to counter, and dash attacking/throwing usually doesn't work well. If the opponent has projectiles and can zone/camp me out, it becomes even more problematic. Not just with jigglypuff though, I have the same issue with every character. Thanks.

 

[Nate22Hill]

how come when i perfect pivot my chracter changes direction

 

[MrTeddyBear]

how come when i perfect pivot my chracter changes direction

That is why it's called a pivot, you're supposed to change the direction you're facing.

But if you mean you're dash dancing in place, you probably aren't tapping the other direction fast enough. The trick is to lightly tap it in one direction and immediately flick it the other direction.

 

[Deleted member]

Can someone explain how to "buffer" things exactly? I understand the concept of it, but I'm not quite sure how to execute it.

 

[Azazel]

Can someone explain how to "buffer" things exactly? I understand the concept of it, but I'm not quite sure how to execute it.

Buffering is just putting an input before an action is possible, which buffers it, so as it comes out the first possible frame the action can come out.

the jumping animation is 4 frames. If you input an aerial during these frames, it will buffer it and come out frame 5.

In this game there is a 9 frame window to buffer actions. so technically there is a 10 frame window to have frame perfect actions,
9 frame buffer window + 1 actionable frame = 10.

if you buffer multiple actions (to be more correct, input multiple actions on the same frame) there is action priority.

for example if you buffer a jump and attack, the attack has priority over jump so attack only comes out.

This is why Sheik can cancel needles into Specials. when sheik cancels her needles, it buffers an airdodge. airdodge has higher priority than jump and attack, but has lower priority than Specials.

be careful about buffering multiple actions, simple stuff like aerial > buffer (jump > aerial) from brawl is no longer possible, you'd have to aerial > buffered jump > aerial

 

[Eonn]

What's the window and positioning for a footstool jump? I only seem to get the accidentally.

 

[Strider_123]

Buffering is just putting an input before an action is possible, which buffers it, so as it comes out the first possible frame the action can come out.

the jumping animation is 4 frames. If you input an aerial during these frames, it will buffer it and come out frame 5.

In this game there is a 9 frame window to buffer actions. so technically there is a 10 frame window to have frame perfect actions,
9 frame buffer window + 1 actionable frame = 10.

if you buffer multiple actions (to be more correct, input multiple actions on the same frame) there is action priority.

for example if you buffer a jump and attack, the attack has priority over jump so attack only comes out.

This is why Sheik can cancel needles into Specials. when sheik cancels her needles, it buffers an airdodge. airdodge has higher priority than jump and attack, but has lower priority than Specials.

be careful about buffering multiple actions, simple stuff like aerial > buffer (jump > aerial) from brawl is no longer possible, you'd have to aerial > buffered jump > aerial

wow that explains why sometimes i grab twice or i try to chain: jump- forwardair- jump forward air but sometimes i miss the jump in between. thanks!

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I cannot test right now (Kismet has my Wii U), but, I know that at least some characters (Wario, Jigglypuff, Mr. Game and Watch) can cancel their airdodge landing lag via an edge cancel; if you're moving horizontally toward the edge of a floor and airdodge before you land, you will slide off the stage with minimal endlag. Does this apply to all characters? Either way, this could be good to keep in mind in order to cut an airdodge short for misdirection and faster follow-ups.

I know that Jigglypuff's airdodge takes longer than most other characters, but I don't know by how much or how much vulnerability it has in comparison. We should get that together sometime.

 

[DelxDoom]

is jump startup universally 4 frames?

 

[Shaya]

Yeah Reflex, every character is capable apparently.

DelxDoom, don't believe so.

 

[Regralht]

Anyone know the amount of frames before you're allowed to regrab ledge? Feels like it's somewhere around 55+.

 

[Azazel]

Anyone know the amount of frames before you're allowed to regrab ledge? Feels like it's somewhere around 55+.

this, im interested as well

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I always assumed it was 60 frames, but I didn't count.

 

[busken]

Not sure if this is classified as a mechanic/technique, but how do you play unpredictably? I use Jiggs who seems to have very limited options for approaching, so I'm stuck with short hop aerials and sometimes a throw or dash. However the short hops are very predictable and easy to counter, and dash attacking/throwing usually doesn't work well. If the opponent has projectiles and can zone/camp me out, it becomes even more problematic. Not just with jigglypuff though, I have the same issue with every character. Thanks.

A mix-up is choosing a different option in the same scenario. Through my experience, I learned that to become truly unpredictable you need to champion mix-ups and in come cases perform options that evoke more risk then and low reward, just so they won't respect your other options. The goal of mix-ups is for your actions to remain hard to internalize and understand, attempting to evoke uncertainty in the opponent's retaliation making their options easily predictable. Here is one common scenario with Sheik. Approach with forward air since it's is fast and has almost no cool down. Opponent shields. Next time you Tomahawk. Next time you approach with back air and use needles to catch their spot dodge. Things like that. However, when the opponent mixes up their defensive options or doesn't resort to the most common ones this is what makes the neutral mentally intensive. That is why while doing mix-ups you should always look at what your opponent is doing and how they are responding. The viability of a character depends on many things, but it also depends on what option does this character have in this situation. If the character has less options, they are more predictable, in turn more subseptible to being punished. In the case of Jigglypuff her approach options are very predictable, and her reward even from these options aren't even that big to make it worthwhile. Let's say she hits me with a forward air which at max only does 9%. Then she tries to hit me with rest the next time. Her approach options are poor and so are her mix-ups. They are too risky, and the reward from them is not even that great. To make matters even worse, she won't take punishes lightly since she is the lightest character in the game. Overall, her neutral options are poor just because her options have more risk then reward, and they are so predictable. Playing unpredictably means mixing constantly mixing up your offensive and defensive options, to put the opponent where their option is very predictable, reading it, and punishing accordingly.

 

[kirby3021]

Occasionally when I perfect pivot, my character turns around again to face the direction they were originally facing. I think that's a pretty cool option, but I'd like to know exactly how I'm doing it so I can replicate it when needs be. Any tips on controlling how many 180s you do when you're perfect pivoting?

 

[Shaya]

I think it just has a lot to do with how your controller is currently 'broken in'.
When you flick the stick back to neutral to "PP" which should have you facing a certain way, the 'knock back' of that can register a light input in the other direction.

 

[Eonn]

A mix-up is choosing a different option in the same scenario. Through my experience, I learned that to become truly unpredictable you need to champion mix-ups and in come cases perform options that evoke more risk then and low reward, just so they won't respect your other options. The goal of mix-ups is for your actions to remain hard to internalize and understand, attempting to evoke uncertainty in the opponent's retaliation making their options easily predictable. Here is one common scenario with Sheik. Approach with forward air since it's is fast and has almost no cool down. Opponent shields. Next time you Tomahawk. Next time you approach with back air and use needles to catch their spot dodge. Things like that. However, when the opponent mixes up their defensive options or doesn't resort to the most common ones this is what makes the neutral mentally intensive. That is why while doing mix-ups you should always look at what your opponent is doing and how they are responding. The viability of a character depends on many things, but it also depends on what option does this character have in this situation. If the character has less options, they are more predictable, in turn more subseptible to being punished. In the case of Jigglypuff her approach options are very predictable, and her reward even from these options aren't even that big to make it worthwhile. Let's say she hits me with a forward air which at max only does 9%. Then she tries to hit me with rest the next time. Her approach options are poor and so are her mix-ups. They are too risky, and the reward from them is not even that great. To make matters even worse, she won't take punishes lightly since she is the lightest character in the game. Overall, her neutral options are poor just because her options have more risk then reward, and they are so predictable. Playing unpredictably means mixing constantly mixing up your offensive and defensive options, to put the opponent where their option is very predictable, reading it, and punishing accordingly.

Thanks for the clarification! Any tips for being unpredictable with characters who have poor neutral games? With Jiggs I often try to fake them out and bait out attacks via multiple jumps and whiffed aerials, or land and try to grab them instead. However, when I'm forced to approach it is a fair bit more challenging. I've also been playing a bit of Fox lately, who can tomahawk and abuse dash attacks/fast throws but a lot of the time I find myself being countered even though I try to mix my approaches or let them come to me.

 

[busken]

Thanks for the clarification! Any tips for being unpredictable with characters who have poor neutral games? With Jiggs I often try to fake them out and bait out attacks via multiple jumps and whiffed aerials, or land and try to grab them instead. However, when I'm forced to approach it is a fair bit more challenging. I've also been playing a bit of Fox lately, who can tomahawk and abuse dash attacks/fast throws but a lot of the time I find myself being countered even though I try to mix my approaches or let them come to me.

Unpredictability correlates to the character's tool set; if the tool set is extensive and full of viable options they simply have the tools to becoming more unpredictable. Jigglypuff has obvious approach options and mix-ups such as rollout or perfect pivot into rest are simply to risky to be a viable mix up. I have no tips for characters like Jigglypuff to become more unpredictable because she simply lacks the tools to do so. Due to the lack of a projectile, you have to approach which puts you at a MAJOR disadvantage since her mix-up approach options are poor and predictable, she has poor boxing options lacking rewarding followups off of grabs and yielding weak tilts with little range, and she is light making her getting killed earlier, and easy to kill because she is floaty.

To be honest, I don't know much about Fox, but I do know that is risk/reward and mix-ups are way better then Jigglypuffs. Find your self being countered? It's probably because you are revealing some type of pattern or habit, are just not playing Fox to his strengths. I am not sure though, you need to be more specific.

 

[Eonn]

Unpredictability correlates to the character's tool set; if the tool set is extensive and full of viable options they simply have the tools to becoming more unpredictable. Jigglypuff has obvious approach options and mix-ups such as rollout or perfect pivot into rest are simply to risky to be a viable mix up. I have no tips for characters like Jigglypuff to become more unpredictable because she simply lacks the tools to do so. Due to the lack of a projectile, you have to approach which puts you at a MAJOR disadvantage since her mix-up approach options are poor and predictable, she has poor boxing options lacking rewarding followups off of grabs and yielding weak tilts with little range, and she is light making her getting killed earlier, and easy to kill because she is floaty.

To be honest, I don't know much about Fox, but I do know that is risk/reward and mix-ups are way better then Jigglypuffs. Find your self being countered? It's probably because you are revealing some type of pattern or habit, are just not playing Fox to his strengths. I am not sure though, you need to be more specific.

Yeah, I watched some replays and I'm relying a bit too much on aerials or getting "combo locked" and attempting to do the same thing multiple times. I'm still learning Fox but it's so much better since I can mix up approaches or simply laser/reflect and force them to come to me. Out of curiosity, did Jiggs have better mixups in Melee because of wave dashing/landing? Is that what made her more powerful (that and better rest and no infinite air dodging)? Apparently she still had/has a brutal learning curve.

 

[busken]

Lol Didn't you main Jiggs in Melee? In a nutshelll, what made Jiggs so good in melee was her high hitstun moves, excellent edge guarding, unparralled combo ability, immunity to chain grabs, and great air approach with multiple short hop long ranged aerials, SHFFL is very good as well, etc. She could also link many of her moves to rest which kills very early.

 

[Nate22Hill]

how do you DI in this game

 

[TheReflexWonder]

how do you DI in this game

The same way as all the past games--Hold the analog stick at a 90-degree angle from the knockback for maximum effect. Smash 4 just has a much smaller maximum influence than Brawl and Melee, making it much less effective and much less noticeable.

 

[Nate22Hill]

The same way as all the past games--Hold the analog stick at a 90-degree angle from the knockback for maximum effect. Smash 4 just has a much smaller maximum influence than Brawl and Melee, making it much less effective and much less noticeable.

i thought to get the most out of DI in this game you have to hold the analog stick 90 degrees and vector at the same time???