Match-Up Discussion ~ Final Week Ganon/Falcon/Link >__>

[TheX0913]

I'm sorry for doubling posting. I was too gung ho. It seemed that I somehow managed to get a reflector hit off of lucario when he was double teaming. Im not sure if i just initated it too late. Not sure if reflector is that effectie against double team.

 

[redgreenblue]

One thing I can saw for fighting an aerial Lucario is NEVER approach from below. Always approach from the side. Lucario's dair destroys everything you have. Attacking with bair is very, very useful on lucario.

 

[gunterrsmash01]

how do you deal with a Lucario that rolls constantly to get behind you and does the A-A-Side B combo?

 

[SlashTalon]

Camp him? If he constantly does it I would assume you could read it and get the **** outta there.

DI away from him as to not get b=grabbed from Side B. If your smash DI is perfect you can get outta his Neutral combo.

 

[B-Mon]

SHL from a distance is a good start but predictability may strike thus causing him to aproach via roll. Shine for Space, ftilt/ might be a good spacer but Utilt must be used sparingly for it can allow Lucario to capture you with his Stomps.

Smash DI, is it the same as normal DI or what? I never understood it.

 

[SlashTalon]

Smash DI/Tap DI is basically repeatedly smashing/tapping a direction to gte outta multi hit attacks.

You can smash/tap DI outta Snakes Nair/UPsmash

Pikas Dsmash, Zelda Upsmash, ROB Dsmash, T.Links Fsmash, Lucario's Neutral, Falco's Fair.

Most of these attacks need smash/tap DI to escape unless you DI'd perfectly at the start of getting hit.

 

[DanGR]

sorry if this isn't the right place to post, but I didn't want to make an entirely new thread. >_>

This week in the Olimar boards, it's falco's week. Any tips regarding the matchup will be appreciated!
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=172222

As you may notice, I took the format from Blad01. Thanks Blad!

 

[Deleted member]

how do you deal with a Lucario that rolls constantly to get behind you and does the A-A-Side B combo?

Ftilt, Jab, Utilt (cause it hits behind a little). Use your quick close range moves to rack up major damage and recharge your aerials. Jab at them once and if they roll behind you quickly do a ftilt behind you or turn around and start the jab. Lucarios dodges are really really fast, so try not to get in this position too often, cause he will almost always win in a spotdodge/rolling contest. (Those few frames really do make a difference)

 

[Justaway]

this is a nice thread, well built.
I don't like the match-up threads that just say difficulty and why they are strong against your character, this at least gives some strategies on beating them.

 

[TheX0913]

We can sneak in our upsmash by boost sliding. This will catch our opponent by surprise. And it can be used. Hylian has made perfect use of it in one of his videos on this thread. When going against lucarios we need to lay down all the cards on the table.

 

[TheKneeOfJustice]

If you find a Lucario likes to roll and spot dodge a lot. Try baiting it and punishing it with Rapid Jab, Nair, and F-Smash.

 

[Zero_Gamer]

I believe I have found a counter to Lucario's double team. It is the reflector. When lucario goes into the animation you would want to stand far away from him. Say you use your projectiles to stay out of range. Well there is a way to stay in range without fearing the counter attack. It is using the reflector. It is an ensured knockdown for lucarios and gets rid of the threat of lucario.

That won't work. We can materialize from the sky! lol, just kidding, but we can materialize from any side we wish.

The one thing I'm afraid of about Falco is his DA --> Upsmash. It does a lot of damage and can be done at multiple percentages. It's really quite frustrating.

 

[B-Mon]

Smash DI/Tap DI is basically repeatedly smashing/tapping a direction to gte outta multi hit attacks.

You can smash/tap DI outta Snakes Nair/UPsmash

Pikas Dsmash, Zelda Upsmash, ROB Dsmash, T.Links Fsmash, Lucario's Neutral, Falco's Fair.

Most of these attacks need smash/tap DI to escape unless you DI'd perfectly at the start of getting hit.

Ahh i see, thanks man.

So who's next for discussion? The GameznWach?

 

[Hawks go Caw]

There's no match up guides against Ice Climbers. They scare me.

 

[Dpete]

<follows DanGR's lead>

The Kirby vs Falco matchup really needs some attention in my opinion. We're discussing it in the Kirby forums, where we went from a 70-30 matchup in favor of Kirby to a 50-50 neutral matchup. If you have any info about this matchup, feel free to click the link in my sig and post your opinions!

 

[TheX0913]

ummm....do we move on to another character yet. I believe we have exhausted this topic.

 

[B-Mon]

Where is Blad01?
WHERE IS BLAD01?!?!?!

 

[Blad01]

Week #8 : Ice Climbers​

New Week : Ice Climbers ! How to beat them ? Discuss !​

(Sorry, i'm not at home, i'm in vacations ^^')

 

[TheX0913]

how should we approach an ice climber? should we be campy, should we be aggresive? What should we look at for when being campy or aggresive?

 

[azninvasion812]

Ice Climbers is very tough for Falco.

Never camp, Because they will just spam their glaciers too.
Always keep a shine distance away from them. Their CG, if performed correctly are pretty muhc like ours.
Never try to CG them because you will be punished by the one you didnt grab.
Spikes are hard to do because their UP B somehow magically teleports Popo to Nana.
Their recoveries are very good and have a few high priority moves

How to beat them? take out Nana.

By taking out Nana, you pretty much greatly lower the effectiveness of their moves.
Play smart, dodge well and Phantasm and Shine are your friend here. So is spot/roll dodge, Down smash/ up smash right in between them. It works wonders. Be aggressive, yet keep your distance at the same time.

 

[TheX0913]

alright taking out nana is easier said then done. How exactly do we go about doing take? Up throw? down throw? dash attack them? which way is guaranteed to separate the two? and when they separated how do we go about finishing nana off?

 

[wangston]

My advise to to keep your distance. The grab is the best thing they have it does 40% and its just ***** you. Keep your distance and spacing. If you're approaching air isn't the way to go cause you will get shield grab. I would say the dlx combo is your best bet for an approach. Watch your spacing and use the AAA combo but don't spin there for ever or they will roll behind and grab you. Also there grab KOs you and higher percents you stay in the grab longer and they hit you even more and then they end with an up smash. It's really hard not to get grabbed, but you have to avoid it at all cost. Splitting them up is the key to a win. But killing Nana can be tricky cause she is a dumb AI and it's hard to know what she is going to do. It's best to separate and gimp, especially if you can get popo below the stage and by himself, their Up B has a huge range but if they aren't together then they can't recover from below the stage.

 

[TheX0913]

about their up b. How far do they have to be from each other in order for up b to be ineffective? We can edge guard up b right? Because i recall for the most part the edgehogging during the invincibility frames of IC up b usually results in popo safely making it but nana not being so lucky.

 

[Twin_A]

subscribing

great thread btw

 

[tdizzle622]

To be honest, I would take out the sister first(I think that's Nana), so that way, the brother wouldn't be able to preform an effective recovery when getting hit off of the stage.

 

[wangston]

I think with the Ice Climbers it might be time to pull out a counter pick character. After watching Sethlon and The ice climbers epic finally I'm not sure that falco can separate them and win. Every attempt to separate them results in a grab that usually means a ton of damage or a KO.

 

[Seison]

I don't have very much experience fighting the IC, as no one I play with mains them, however, based on Sethlon's newest vids, fighting a skilled set of IC is no easy task. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=183421

that is a link to Seth's latest video thread. Watch the IC matches. fear the ****. but learn from it. It looks like unless you have to, or you have an easy opening, you should stick to laser spam, the shine, and the phantasm. Phantasm sets up for a bair sometimes.

Also, it's been said, but separating the IC is imperative, as Popo's solo recovery is utter balls. Don't underestimate him though, because his smashes still have a ton of knockback if they're fresh.

As for in depth strategies on how to separate them ad such, I'm afraid I've got nothing to offer.

 

[TheX0913]

off to the ice climbers forum to figure out their weakness and tactics everyone!

 

[Forlorn]

off to the ice climbers forum to figure out their weakness and tactics everyone!

That sounds like a mighty fine idea! However, I think it's better to just keep your distance and just laser spam. Also, try a jab jab dsmash which should keep them within your range. Even though you can pull this off, you need to keep your shine at the ready otherwise they'll approach and/or use desynced ice thingies to push you near the edge then smash you.

All in all, I think you just gotta play defensive and don't go offensive unless you can see an opening.

 

[TheX0913]

That sounds like a mighty fine idea! However, I think it's better to just keep your distance and just laser spam. Also, try a jab jab dsmash which should keep them within your range. Even though you can pull this off, you need to keep your shine at the ready otherwise they'll approach and/or use desynced ice thingies to push you near the edge then smash you.

All in all, I think you just gotta play defensive and don't go offensive unless you can see an opening.

see that's where you're partially wrong. When you see an opening it is most likely they did this on purpose in order to set you up for a grab. that's why when you still see an opening you should keep your distance with reflector and try to hit the IC with the tip of your neutral A combo.

 

[TheX0913]

very sorry for the lenght of this post and double post.

“When it comes to non-grab combos, the ICs don't have much.” Most of the Ice climbers attacks are easily seen coming and stoppable. This leaves a large emphasis on their grabbing game. It’s not as easy as spot dodge and punish. I will try my best to explain a method to effectively counter the IC’s game.

The IC’s have two moves up their sleeves that they use because it would be difficult for most opponents to get past. These attacks are squall and blizzard. But should we falco mainers worry? No. We have no reason to break a sweat because a wise falco will stay in the range of the center of the reflector. In this set up you can easily beat both attacks further eliminating a threat.

Desynching is a big part of the IC’s game and there is really no way we can stop them from desynching. Therefore, we should know how to deal with desynching. When desynched the IC’s may proceed to grab you. If and only if you stay in the grab range. So, I say now that we stay in the range of the reflector. This leads to f tilts which keep us in a safe distance of grabs and the ability to hit with the tip of our neutral A combo, again a safe distance.

When an IC wants to camp they usually alternate between blizzards, fairs, and blocks creating a wall. This will force most opponents to give up their positioning or falsely lure them into believing they have an opening ultimately leading to a squall. “What you want to do is use these weak, short ranged attacks to create false openings.” For the most part we can also camp. Use SHDL and upon landing mash the down b to throw out the reflector. The point of this is to be both on the offensive and defensive. See, a buffered SHDL forces the ICs to react and change their position, and the reflector upon landing allows for defense incase ICs threw out some blocks during your SHDL. This covers you for the most part.

As delphiki stated “the critical aspect of all this is the small boost of speed at the beginning of the Squall.” The squall allows for the gap between the two players to shorthen. Similar to a lucario’s attempt of shortening distance with an intentional double team. Another reason why I emphasize the falco wall (SHDL and reflector) is because once desynched and the gap closed. An IC player will rush you and get on the offensive. They will run in and begin to abuse their grabs and other “combos”. But if you set up your wall they will eat either lasers or reflector.

All in all, use the reflector often because its teaches them a lesson better. Never use f smash! We all learned this from watching sethlon against melee. There is no need to stay in their grabbing range. When thrown in the air and looking for a safe land, just kick out the reflector. It keeps the opponent back especially in closed spaces. From watching the sethlon video’s a well placed phantasm is a nice offensive weapon. It also allows for a bair. Other than that I have no sure way of launching an effective offensive. I do belive that approach the IC with a SHL or SHDL and getting in the range for the tips of neutral A combo will work. A dsmash will also keep them in a good range so that you will not be grabbed. Again credit to delphiki for his IC climbers guide, one of the two reliable sources for IC tactics I found on their board.

 

[Tommy_G]

Laser spam and immediate aerial phantasm spam the **** out of them.

 

[Twin_A]

Wow TheX that was an amazing short guide to fighting IC's.

Question tho, what if you approached the IC's with SHDL and SH dair'd to land behind them then retreated via Falcos Wall? What are the chances of them pivote grabbing or being able to counter with a grab? (note you could probably get hit but if you land out of grab range this simple offensive looking approach may work).

To sum up what was said in the previous post tho it looks like if you're going to be offensive you need perfect spacing

 

[TheX0913]

good question...I haven't tried it. I will try it on the lvl 9 computer because it has the perfect ability to shield block and grab instantaneously. but is this SHDL and SHDair works, I believe the best transition to go into falco's wall would be the b reversal. Check it, after the dair and safely landing you can buffer a dash, jump and input the button commands for b reversal. As for perfect spacing to win this match, I don't think its a big problem. I'm more than sure melee was more intense when it came to spacing and button executing. Also, I believe there is a efficient way to use falco's wall because sometimes i get lag on the reflector upon landing (it takes him a while to kick it out).

 

[Twin_A]

I gotcha. I want to find a safe and overal effective approach so Falco can lose the idea of camp to win against IC's (and yes I know mindgames work blah blah blah. But you guys know what I mean).

 

[IceDX]

To my Opinion IC are one of Falco´s Worst match ups

 

[Beetle Juice]

i don't really think is that we need new methods to take out IC's i never had problems with and play offense most of the game.

 

[Shinku]

ics **** falco. err ummm counter pick

 

[Blistering Speed]

Type in Sethlon vs KRD on youtube. Sethlon really shows how to deal with ICs in the newest matches. Bottom line of this, Falco can outcamp the ICs and Aerial cancelled Illusion wrecks them thanks to its speed and the sluggishness of Nana's reactions.

 

[Kazon]

outcamping them with laser spam and reflector,
using the phantasm for spacing
trying to take out nana first

thats what i usually try, tho i didnt play many ICs