Match-Up Discussion ~ Final Week Ganon/Falcon/Link >__>

[DMG]

Falco Wrecks IC's, they have trouble getting through lasers and even when they do get near Falco, he can just Phantasm away... This is definitely a hard matchup for the IC's, Falco is just too hard for them to pressure and get a nasty CG off.

 

[TheX0913]

i don't really think is that we need new methods to take out IC's i never had problems with and play offense most of the game.

play offense most of the game? what approach a RAR bair, nair, and dair. Great, that won't be predictable after the first few approaches. Yeah, go towards them and jump in the air. they won't expect an attack and either shield it and grab you or spot dodge and grab you.

Type in Sethlon vs KRD on youtube. Sethlon really shows how to deal with ICs in the newest matches. Bottom line of this, Falco can outcamp the ICs and Aerial cancelled Illusion wrecks them thanks to its speed and the sluggishness of Nana's reactions.

I agree. But what will be our offensive approach? how long can you "camp" before they just shield? How will we rack up the damage to take out the IC's?

Falco Wrecks IC's, they have trouble getting through lasers and even when they do get near Falco, he can just Phantasm away... This is definitely a hard matchup for the IC's, Falco is just too hard for them to pressure and get a nasty CG off.

Not nessecarily true. Look at Sethlon, one of the top three falco's, he got CG and he was pressuring his butt off. Case in point, this match is an equally hard match for falco. One mistake and its over.

 

[DMG]

Not nessecarily true. Look at Sethlon, one of the top three falco's, he got CG and he was pressuring his butt off. Case in point, this match is an equally hard match for falco. One mistake and its over.

Have you guys seen the videos of him beating Melee1 and KDR? They are some pretty good IC's and he pretty much beat them solidly. Of course, he got ***** by the CG's whenever they would occur, but he was all over the place and made it a fu***** pain for them to even approach with anything. If he had teched even half of the Fair CG's, then he would have won by an even greater margin.

Falco get's ***** by CG's in general: Fact.

Falco can outcamp/outspam them with lasers and reflect with his Reflector: Fact.

Falco can be a b**** to grab if he uses his Phantasm smartly: Fact.

Is this matchup even: IDK.

Oh, and I've played and see Sethlon play IRL, so I'm not just basing my opinions off of a few videos of his.

 

[TheX0913]

I agree that this match up is not easy for falco and a counter pick character will be needed for those who want it. But if you choose to stay with falco you will have to play a very tight game of keeping the correct amount of space if you want to land attacks. We already know falco's neutral A combo pings almost everything and his f tilt and dsmash have decent range. The d smash has enough range, when used at the right range, so that if an IC sees it coming and chooses to shield it will push them out of the way for the grab. If they spot dodge they will still be out of range for the grab, unless they dash grab.

 

[DMG]

I agree that this match up is not easy for falco and a counter pick character will be needed for those who want it. But if you choose to stay with falco you will have to play a very tight game of keeping the correct amount of space if you want to land attacks. We already know falco's neutral A combo pings almost everything and his f tilt and dsmash have decent range. The d smash has enough range, when used at the right range, so that if an IC sees it coming and chooses to shield it will push them out of the way for the grab. If they spot dodge they will still be out of range for the grab, unless they dash grab.

In this matchup, Falco shouldn't be worried about landing anything other than Lasers, Reflector, and Phantasm until the IC's either get separated or when they are in killing %'s. Falco can play it safe and campy and there's not much the IC can do to counter that playstyle.

I do agree though that if you are not 100% confident on taking the IC's as Falco, that you should just switch characters, because that matchup can become very nasty if you take the wrong approach to heart.

 

[TheX0913]

yeah, i guess you're right dr. mario. Lasers and phantasms should be all thats landed, but i feel that there could be another approach to the ICs (not saying its better, in fact its a tighter game if you play the way i described it). I only say this sheerly out of the fact that I want brawl to be as technical as melee. I mean we don't have many ATs in brawl so I try the best to make falco's metagame as technical and "deep" as possible by using his attacks and range. With that said (this being directed towards twin A) yes with a strong dair in the range of the neutral A combo you can DI towards the ice climbers and if they shield they will get pushed too far back for a grab. I tried it with lvl 9 computer set to attack in training mode and then in a controlled situation with my cousin.

 

[TheX0913]

ok...how about we move to the next character

 

[Rimmer]

Could the next one be Falco vs Marth, please? I'm having a pain trying to beat that sword. Lasers don't work as well as against other characters because Marth can Fair pretty much the very next frame after he gets hit. Also, neutral A usually rewards me with an Fsmash. It's also hard to punish a Marth that can space well.

EDIT: These guys are saying Marth owns Falco.

 

[iDizZzY]

The only advice I have on this match up is PHANTASM WHENEVER THE ICs GET CLOSE AT ALL.

 

[onoez]

A lil off-topic maybe, cuz it's Ice climbers week, but I just wanted to know something.

- Phantasm is NOT your friend against a great Olimar. A lot of his moves outpriorize it....

If Phantasm (I'm assuming it's B > (ye I kno I'm nub)) is so bad vs Olimar, why does Seth use it A LOT specifically vs Olimar in the Loser's Finals? (see vids at the vid thread ^^)

Note that if this is too off-topic I'd appreciate it if you'd pm me (instead of replying).

 

[Blad01]

@onoez : In this topic, summaries are from what i read, not really from what i think. I was not convinced by the Phantasm point, but some people said that it was outprioritized by a lot of Olimar's moves, so...

If you want to defend your point of view, go ahead

By the way, i'm back from my holidays. Do the Falco fans want to restart a Match-Up discussion now, or in two weeks ?

 

[gunterrsmash01]

A lil off-topic maybe, cuz it's Ice climbers week, but I just wanted to know something.



If Phantasm (I'm assuming it's B > (ye I kno I'm nub)) is so bad vs Olimar, why does Seth use it A LOT specifically vs Olimar in the Loser's Finals? (see vids at the vid thread ^^)

Note that if this is too off-topic I'd appreciate it if you'd pm me (instead of replying).

Yes, phantasm is a great move against olimar. of course olimar can outpriotize it, but its so fast that if you use it wisely you can always catch the olimar off guard.

 

[onoez]

Yes, phantasm is a great move against olimar. of course olimar can outpriotize it, but its so fast that if you use it wisely you can always catch the olimar off guard.

Yea I agree, it's a great way to deal olimar damage w/o getting very close to him, I mean those diagonally dairs get a lil' predictable .

I should edit that if I were you Blad01

 

[Sasha]

@onoez : In this topic, summaries are from what i read, not really from what i think. I was not convinced by the Phantasm point, but some people said that it was outprioritized by a lot of Olimar's moves, so...

If you want to defend your point of view, go ahead

By the way, i'm back from my holidays. Do the Falco fans want to restart a Match-Up discussion now, or in two weeks ?

We should move on to another character asap. I'm dying for some Kirby match-up opinions.

 

[HMD]

why are u dying for some kirby match up u have trouble with kirby

 

[wangston]

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=178796&highlight=kirby

here is a falco theard on kirby. Kirby puts up a very good fight against falco.

 

[Blad01]

Week #9 : Marth​

Introduction on the OP.

Serisouly, i have got a big problem against Marths with Falco.... He outranges you largely, it's so easy for him to punish you, and so hard for you to punish him...
So, how would you beat him ? :/

 

[wangston]

You can't chaingrab a good marth so you have to play falco the way he was meant to be played. All marth has to do is his up-b and he is out of it. I'm not sure if his upb will stop all of your options out of a downthrow though. You might be able to do the dashattack/upsmash combo and buffered dash d-air. I'm not 100% sure on those because Marth's lame up b may stop everything you have out of a down throw. Using Falco's spacing might not be good because marth is strongest at the tip of his sword. A tippered f-smash kills around 80%. Also marth has a deadly chaingrab spike, however the only time some one did this to me was online so I'm not sure if Falco can escape or not. In this match up SHDL is a god send it stops marth in his tracks, whether in the air or on the ground. Along with the laser you have you're trusty reflector, though the reflector has a slow cooldown and if you miss with it your going to get punished.

 

[ftl]

You can still use dthrow well in this matchup. If you can bait an upb and either shield it or otherwise not get hit, that leaves Marth pretty vulnerable. It can be risky though.

For a lot of info on Marth v Falco, check out http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=189118 . I'm not sure what the conclusion was about what falco should do in the matchup though.

 

[The_Fool]

If I grab a marth at 0-4%ish, instead of CG (he breaks out with up-B), my favorite move to do is a d-throw to dash-attack+upsmash. I find that the upsmash wont connect most of the time this way past something like 5%.

 

[BrawlBro]

shdl wrecks pretty much all of marths approachs... like sh fairs... without sh fairs marth goes down the gutter.

 

[clowsui]

lol brawlbro

lack of hitstun makes it easy for marth to walk through lasers and pay you back all your damage with dancing blade
he has other approaches like dtilt, shnair and dancing
he has a free tipper combo from 0 or death combo if you sit by the ledge
counter WRECKS falco's recovery (both of them)
gimps falco easily
IAPs are punished by dash grab -> dancing blade which works against ffers at like all %s
this is like the worst uphill battle ever, it's not even this bad with MK
with marth you are either playing perfect or you are getting wrecked, it's simple
you have to maintain space with clever shdls, do some grab mindgames too - a thing i like to do is that i'll go for my 1-2 dthrows and wait for them to do something, if they up b then it's a free uair, bair or dair if they jump out then fsmash them and if they just kinda hover out, changing the time of their fair or upB then at least you don't get hit with a tippered upB
marth is so **** hard to fight x_x laser locks help though, if they don't wall correctly (most marths don't) just ftilt them and start throwing lasers out. nair lock is not viable simply because it's so **** hard to get that last hit and the last hit only on.

 

[adumbrodeus]

shdl wrecks pretty much all of marths approachs... like sh fairs... without sh fairs marth goes down the gutter.

Ummm, dtilt? ftilt?

Both are perfectly good options upon approach.

In a lot of match-ups, dtilt is considerably better then sh fair.

So how does shdl wreck dtilt?


60-40 marth btw, Falco just doesn't have the stopping power to prevent a Marth approach and doesn't do enough damage to defeat Marth's melee range superiority. That and Marth has an optimal spacing which pretty much wrecks falco. It's difficult to maintain, but marth has better spacing tools.


Oh, just to let you guys know, this discussion got covered very well on EL's thread over here, good read on the topic.

 

[Beetle Juice]

You can still use dthrow well in this matchup. If you can bait an upb and either shield it or otherwise not get hit, that leaves Marth pretty vulnerable. It can be risky though.

For a lot of info on Marth v Falco, check out http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=189118 . I'm not sure what the conclusion was about what falco should do in the matchup though.

yea about that thread...

 

[Jim Morrison]

it's easy to fight marth, battlefield will do. dont dodge to much, just use shield, and also use reflector to create space, then use fsmash at high percentage to finish him off. also recover with up-b if you can, cause it messes up their edgehog/guard (i dunno o.O)

 

[adumbrodeus]

it's easy to fight marth, battlefield will do. dont dodge to much, just use shield, and also use reflector to create space, then use fsmash at high percentage to finish him off. also recover with up-b if you can, cause it messes up their edgehog/guard (i dunno o.O)

What?

No.

You want a long flat stage so you can laser him with impunity. Battlefied's platforms make projectile spam just about impossible.

Reflector is WAY too punishable to spam in this match-up.

Basically, play keep away as long as possible, and stick in as close as possible when is at melee range, so you can actually do something.

 

[Hype]

I can give some insight from the marth perspective.

Marth also has some nasty grab combo's on you when your at low percents.
- Chain grab
- 0 to death (Fthrow > Fthrow > Dair at the edge)
- Fthrow to Fsmash (0-30%, Tipper 1-30%)
- Dthrow to Dancing Blade (0-17%)

Dancing blade rips right through spot dodgers.

I like to use Uthrow when i'm marth, I find falco rather easy to juggle. Marth is fast and has great DI so he can usually stop falco's who try to DI to the edge of the stage before they can side B.


My advice to you...

You don't want to use you jab combo because marth can up B out of it.

Marth has a really solid Defencive game. when you have a marth at a high percent, the best way to kill him (or the way I usually die) is to use your side to get him in the air then be aggresive when hes scrambling to reposition himself.

oh yeah, counterpick FD.

 

[adumbrodeus]

You don't want to use you jab combo because marth can up B out of it.

Don't forget, he can also DI out of it, which leaves you in perfect range for a tipper.

 

[olimar64]

Your grounded lasers can seriously annoy a Marth user to the point that he might make some silly mistakes. While that may be wishful thinking, Falco's techchasing capability can punish Marth if he does use a move at the worst possible time.

Overall, playing defensively using reflector as a projectile would be your best bet for racking up damage.

Also, if you're Uspec-d out of your chaingrab/jab, Marth is in fallspecial, don't forget that. That can set him up for utilt/charged usmash.

 

[Hype]

Also If marth up B's the ledge, the next time he touches the ground he gets a super laggy (28 frames i think) landing. but this can be canceled if marth does one of his no lag aerials right before he hit the ground.

 

[-Nana-]

I saw someone say it's easy to fight Marth which is not true at all. Marth can 0> death Falco with an fthrow > dair. Marth can't be chaingrabbed because he can upB out of it everytime and since he has a disjointed hit box, which puts a damper on Falco's great priority. The best way to fight marth IMO would be camping w/ lasers and shines. Marth has no projectiles so if you can outrange him then do it. Getting in attacks like bairs (which may hit past his sword) work very well to hit him away and gimp him. Also Marth has a lot of troubles when he's being juggled above people. It's probably his biggest weakness so keeping him up is great with nairs and uairs and bairs.

Lastly an awesome way to kill Marth is with release grab. Grab> release > Sliding usmash (DACUS) hits hard and is an almost gauranteed hit. Marth is possibly Falco's hardest fight imo so it helps to know the matchup well.

 

[Marcbri]

definitily Marth is one of falco's hardest match-ups with his chaingrab and his sword.

I think the best way to fight marth is SHDL along jabs, tilts and some grabs playing the whole match safe. I like to fight him in the air and atack when he is above you with bairs, nairs and uairs.
to win it's important to not being shieldgrabbed at low % and look for his most used moves( fair, fsmash,and sideB are usually the favourite moves of Marth)

of course you can still camp with laser and IAP but Marth will catch on you quick.

this match-up is 35-65 for me

 

[Blad01]

I agree on this match-up difficulty...

I think we must absolutly play defensivly. That means camp (:[), and Out of shield attacks, shieldgrab...
You shouldn't SH against Marth, unless you are sure he will stay on the ground... His Fair is just **** against Falco. And when he's on the ground, he also can be very dangerous : Dolphin Slash, Utilt, Counter...
The only move who could rivalise in the airs is Bair, but... Even this move has a lack of range against Marth.

As stated, Lasers can be very helpful against Marth, but sometimes they don't stun him enough... So he can FB before you attack.

So yes, everything about Marth is reading him, push him to the fault by veru defensive game, and punish.

And... Pay attention to that annoying counter :/

[OF course, i won't repeat the chaingrab thing on us Faco mainers victims :'( And everything that's already written down ^^]

 

[Allin]

This issue with this macth up is lack of being able to chain grab also there is a lack of major ways to get past marths F-air and N-Air. Mainly you need to camp with the shl or shsl as much as possible to rack up the damage or do D-Throw to Dash Cancled USmash since they cant up b out of this (Though they can Di into a footstool if they know that it is coming) Using reflector to mess up Marths apporach is good but dont spam it because evantully the marth will predict it and counter it or air dodge into a fsmash tipper. another thing you need to worry about with marth is platforms they give marth huge advantages more places to avoid the shl and to run off to f-air. Counter picks for marth are mostly Small stages with the least amount of platoforms as possible. Marth is probably our hradest macth up but you can beat him assumnig you know what your doing over b instant phantasm is an amazing move to bust out in the middle of a macth against marth since it has more priorty then his fair after the intial frames of the move.

 

[Blad01]

Ok, thank you all guys for your response.

Does everybody agree on a 40-60 match-up ?

I will move on tomorrow (and write an new summary in the first page).

[EDIT : Zelda's summary on the first page. Comment encouraged ]

[EDIT2 : I added a Counterpick field. From now, please say which stage you would pick again a certain character. You have 9 Characters' counterpicks to complete ]

 

[Blad01]

Anyone to conclude on Marth (with a summary like in the first page) ? Which counterpick do you advice ?

Personnally, i think that Smashville os a good CP against Marth, who you can edgeguard pretty easily.

Against Snake, i would say FD or Jungle Japes.

Against MK... It's the same thing on all stages %) Maybe JJ too.

 

[Blad01]

Week #10 : King Dedede​

This King is very original : He's big, strong, and slow BUT has 4 mid-air jumps, quick killing tilts, an amazing grab-range and a projectile x_X Moreover, he has a good recovery. Falco can't be chaingrabbed by DDD, while he can CG the king. However, this guy is still a good opponent, and a though one to kill. How would you win a match-up against DDD ?
Discuss !

(On a side note, i added a hint for Week #11)

 

[clowsui]

marth is good on all the stages that you're good on, which SUCKS. there's no real stage advantage with him...just ban delfino and a stage of your choice vs. marth

also d3 isn't too bad, you've just gotta try and camp him out and occasionally poke at him with offensive moves. don't rush in though because he has a lot of high priority moves lol

 

[Shy Guy 86]

Blad, please add in all the summaries when we're done with DDD, We are kinda moving slow...

 

[Blad01]

Blad, please add in all the summaries when we're done with DDD, We are kinda moving slow...

Ok, i will add them before Sunday.

But if some people could participate to the match-up discussions, that would be better... :/