Match-Up Discussion ~ Final Week Ganon/Falcon/Link >__>

[Tommy_G]

Pit for Week 5 XD

For now I'd say Lucario because he is practically the anti-combo character.

 

[TheX0913]

zelda...I have trouble getting past her up smash, up a, bair, and just about most attacks

 

[zamz]

We should go with Zelda. The Match-Up chart considers Zelda an Anti-Falco. I don't see why or how Zelda could possibly dominate Falco...so...lets discuss it.

 

[Blad01]

Week #4 : Zelda​

Take a look at the first post ​

What is the general Zelda's bahaviour ? What moves do you fear ? Do you think that she can counter Falco ? ...

Let's the discussion begin ! :D

 

[Exousia]

Urg

If Metaknight and Snake don't give you trouble as Falco, ZELDA WILL!!

This is what you have to look out for when playing against Zelda.

Her Reflector
Her Dins
Her Bair

Her reflector has as much **** range as your shine so close combat is always a risky battle. She we use this to space herself if the going gets tough. Only counter that is safe is shine.

Her dins are the most ******** long range move in the game and she will use it to be a campy lil b****. Lasering her before she activates it(or more importantly, when it gets near you) will stop it from exploding. Or if it is just about to explode, use the shine to absorb the blast, but quickly dodge because a next one WILL come.

I can't begin to say how many times I lost games where I had the advantage just because of Zelda's bair. Her bair has a critical hit spot that will send you flying around 80 to 90% and higher(you'll know by the showing of electricity before you'll go flying). It comes out fairly quick so you should use equaly or faster moves against (or just shine her in the air) such as Nair or just air dodge and pray you missed her stupid high heels from sending you to your death.

And besides from not being chaingrabable, everything else is a piece of cake (no taunt pun intended) for Falco.

 

[TheKneeOfJustice]

I haven't lost a tournament GAME to Zelda yet. I don't find her that intimidating. Ground based Zelda's probably have a better shot, because you dominate her in the air. Most of the time I just try to force her out of her shield, and catch her in lag via Laser, Shine, and Tilt camping. Nair also rocks this match-up, and Bair and Uair are probably your best kill moves.

 

[wasabicheese]

D-tilt -> Nair ***** Zelda IMO

 

[TheX0913]

how will you approach zelda from the air? what about her up smash and up tilt?

 

[Exousia]

Oh yea, I forgot about her Up-Smash

Its her ultimate anti-air and will pwn your Dair as quick as Western Showdown.

Just avoiding getting hit by it and you should be fine.

 

[TheKneeOfJustice]

You know, tap DI is ridiculously easy. You can also bait them out of your opponent too, and then you get a free whatever the heck you want.

 

[FuFu300]

I apologize for going back to a previous discussion, but couldn't you just make use of the Phantasm/Immediate Aerial Phantasm to hit a Snake that is crawling?

I find Zelda to be somewhat annoying. I've only played one good one, and he just kept spamming the USmash. I highly suggest punishing missed opportunities with the laser...and try to avoid the USmash at all costs.

Also, pretty much every Zelda loves to roll into you and DSmash, so don't spotdodge when after she rolls into you. You'll get hit by the second hit, or at least I did...after a while, however, it becomes to predictable that you can jump while Zelda is rolling and either

A) Punish her with a Dair/Bair

B) Fall to the left/right of her as she uses her USmash (you're above her, after all, and using the USmash when someone is above her is pretty much second nature for all Zelda players) and hit her with your FSmash while she lags.

My two cents. I've only fought one Zelda, so maybe what I'm saying only applies to that person. I hope I helped, however!

 

[Blad01]

Wow o-O That's all ?

Everybody can beat a Zelda when he want, how he want ?

I also found that her D-Smash was... very annoying. :/

 

[SlashTalon]

Your Bairs cancel out the exploding Din's fire =)

 

[Blad01]

So Zelda is basically going to :

- Spam Din's Fire when you are off the ledge
- Use his B move to reflect projectiles
- Spam his USmash when you are too close ?

Does Zelda use his Dair ? I don't see that often...

Oh, and also, do Zelda players use their UpB to move on the stage ?

To finish, did any good Zelda main find the better way to get out of Falco's chaingrab ?

From what i've seen, this match-up could be pretty even. Strange that people don't contribute on this match-up... ôO

 

[Blistering Speed]

Enough, I shall be the one to contribute on this matchup!!

The key thing that Falco needs to do in this match is to get Zelda into the Air, not far enough for her to teleport away but just in the air because the majority of her aerials, whilst devastating when sweetspotted, dont do jack **** otherwise. Always go to be underneath Zelda as her D Air is nigh on useless in a pressured situation. U Air, N Air and B Air are all your friends here. NEVER D Air onto her on the ground, her U Smash goes through everything.

As Far as approaching, shine is your go to move and is in genral underused in every matchup, it'll cancel out her Dins Fire (also you should SHAD) and shine outranges those blasted long ranged smashes of hers(F Smash :angry go for the chaingrab when you can as you should in every matchup, but dont completely concentrate on it, I see alot of people doing this and it can really hinder you.

Just because Zelda has a reflector doesn't mean you shouldn't use your lazers, indeed use them whenever she is not in a position to reflect e.g. off stage.

Overall 5:5 matchup, spacing is important this match.

Any questions feel free to ask

 

[wasabicheese]

u cant chaingrab zelda. lol

 

[SlashTalon]

Tap DI out of her smashes, Bair her dins fire on way back to stage, and play this matchup hit-n-run style.

 

[Vlade]

Like the others have said, I would certainly watch out for Din's Fire when you're trying to recover.
Don't bother with chaingrab, just use downthrow > shdair or shine for damage. Zelda cant really be cg'ed
If you get the chance, smash boost then follow up with aerial (usually neutral if possible)
I usually find it difficult to win the camp game, because Din's Fire does too much knockback and she also has neutral B up her sleeve to reflect my lasers (not usually used however) but spam the lasers when she's recovering if you're not in a position to spike.

 

[Raiderwarlord99]

Don't forget that some Zelda's get a little Din's Fire happy & will hit you with it when your far below the stage which can help you get enough of a vertical boost to recover safely. Make sure to take that hit if it comes.

 

[iredecent]

the only 2 zelda players i get to play try and trick me when i am in front of them by using dins fire to make me roll behind them for a SHB-air. easily avoidable just happens to me alot =].

 

[DanGR]

zelda's dair has just about no priority unless she can sweetspot it- just like her fair. It's much harder to sweetspot the dair than it is to sweetspot the fair. That's why most Zeldas avoid using the move when being juggled and typically move to the edge of the stage to sneak in a fair or grab the ledge instead of facing you straight on like a man.

I play against Zelda about 90% of all my matches. I know these things.

 

[Exousia]

hmmm, it looks like we can start next week's character discussion now.

 

[Ratherion]

I suggest... freaking ICE CLIMBERS.

My friend just mastered the über chaingrab-****-kill-death-blood-god****it-he-wins-every-time-now.

 

[Exousia]

.....Pikachu

 

[TheX0913]

Maybe we should do Marth. After all we need to know how to deal with him, he has several moves at his arsenal that we should know about and how to appropriately deal with them. For example, most marth players will always try to space themselves and because of marths disjointed hitbox it becomes relatively successful. That and marth is able to effectively maneuver himself in the air which will make it hard for falco to start aerials. My opinion...

 

[Blad01]

Let's the fate decide !
I am going to throw a die with the following characters :

1- Pikachu
2- Marth
3- Pit
4- Ice Climber
5- ROB
6- Game & Watch

*1 throw* ...1 !

*2* 4

*3*... 6 !

*4* ..... 1 !

So, the next Character will be Pikachu.

But we don't have so much about Zelda... No one else want to contribute ?

And wait before speaking about Pikachu, i will begin the discussion this evening.

 

[TheKneeOfJustice]

I can offer a lot of insight on the Pikachu match-up. It's a really interesting one to say the least. I will throw my two cents in after Blad posts.

 

[Blad01]

Ok, let's begin the fifth week !

Week #5 : Pikachu​

As always, take a look at the first post to have a little introduction.​

~~​

 

[Vlade]

I find Pika's dsmash to be quite annoying becuase of the dmg it can rack up, but I guess it's quite avoidable. You may be out-camped thanks to Pika's thunder jolt, depends on your opponent's style of play. Lots of quick tilts and jabs will help, chain-grabbing may be a bit difficult, but at 0% you should be able to do a couple. Short Hop dair and nair for close combat are of good use, especially the nair for damage.

Overall watch out for pikachu's smashes, but take extra caution with its fsmash coz it can out-prioritise some of your attacks as well as having fair range.

 

[BEES]

Pikachu's approach involves him full-hopping and shooting lightning balls, which gets around the laser pretty well. He's hard to hit, and he likes to attack diagonally above and in front of you. He also likes to recover horizontally with a skullbash to punish your attempts at spiking him.

My advice:
-always roll/tech away, never toward, you'll eat a d-smash
-never attack from above/diagonally in front unless he's stunned. This is like fighting Fox. His u-smash or u-air will kill you.

My question:
-can the reflector stop a quick attack?
-how bad is the chaingrab? Hopefully it's not as bad as with Fox.

 

[Ratherion]

QAC thunder cancel...

D:

 

[TheKneeOfJustice]

This match-up I feel, as hard as it may be for some, still in Falco's favor.

Pikachu's attacks are fast, and combined with their stun, and low lag, can feel almost unpunishable for some players. Pikachu's primarily approach with full hopped jolts, or fairs. Sometimes they will QAC to reposition, but it's fairly predictable.

Because Pikachu approaches in such ways, you can shunt the jolt approach with retreating shines, and sometimes this handles the fair approach as well. Nair is a good aerial option as well if you want to react more aggressively, but if you miss your spacing, its bound to be worse for you than it will be for the rat.

The chain grabs are about even on each other in my opinion. Falco's at least leads off the edge into a spike, something which thankfully Pikachu does not have.

Killing the rat is a little more troublesome. One of Falco's most reliable kill moves is his Up smash, and Pikachu is very good at not allowing them to connect. Because of this you have to play a little more patiently and try and conserve your Bair so it's strong when you need it.

There are several strong points to this match-up though.

First off, if you are good at tap DI (what you use to get out of the down smash), then you can use it on Fair and Bair as well to improve your ability to escape Pikachu.

A lot of Pikachu's will try to combo into thunder, if you can reliably bait this, you can shine right back into them. It won't generally kill, but it will force them to be more careful in its use through out the match.

Pikachu has a lot of punishable moves, namely f-smash and d-smash when they miss. You need to react quick and punish accordingly, as many good Pikachu's won't leave themselves open many times.

Also, more so in this match-up than most, you want to avoid using your shield a lot. Pikachu is one of the best shield pressure characters, so it may be better to take the hit and tap DI away than let him eat through your shield until it stabs. Proper spacing and good mind games can circumvent the need to shield through out most of this match. Nair, Dair, Shine, Lasers, and F-tilt are all good at keeping Pikachu at the ranges you want him.

 

[TheX0913]

from what I experienced...fighting lvl 9 computer pikachus...and testing him out myself, is that all of his aerial attacks suffer from lots of lag. I think it would best at times to bait in into doing short hop aerial attacks and shield grabbing him. His skull bash is rather predictable and can be shined. Again, as TheKneeOfJustice said his thunder can be shined and will make pikachu users more conscience and scared of when to use it. His b can be easily counted in my opinion. I would also like to add that you should stay in shine distance of a pikachu if they tend to spam the thundershock because when you predict this attack correctly and shine, you may do twice the damage from the shine and reflected thundershock in just enough time for the opponent to barely react to it, causing some knock back.

 

[redgreenblue]

The thing about Dsmash is that you can escape it before the final hit (the one with knockback) at any percentage at all. I personally DI to the left (or right) diagonally down while spamming shield. I tend to escape out of it easily. Just make sure you don't get caught in it, before dsmash still does a lot of damage without the final hit. Additionally, spam lasers. You want pikachu to have to crawl towards you. A scared, crawling pikachu is better than a QACing pikachu.

 

[Blad01]

Hum, guys, thanks for the infos ^^

But don't forget the chaingrabs game ! Falco has one - which is bad against Pikachu ... -, and more important, Pikachu has two :/ The Forward CG and the Down CG.

 

[redgreenblue]

Hum, guys, thanks for the infos ^^

But don't forget the chaingrabs game ! Falco has one - which is bad against Pikachu ... -, and more important, Pikachu has two :/ The Forward CG and the Down CG.

Pika can only use one of those in a single stock, and falco can escape from both with DI.

 

[Blad01]

Hum, ok that good to know.

Diagonal-Up DI for the Down-Throw, and "Away" DI for the F-Throw i suppose ?

Juste to be accurate ^^

 

[old king coal]

up-smash is not very effective against pikachu. pickachu's turn to fight. pikachu uses lightning. Reflected by falco...Ooooo thats gotta hurt. Will he change pokemon? NO.. pickachu goes for nair. It's missed. falco on the offensive now. f-tilt is super effective... thats a critical hit!! pickachu has fainted change pokemon?

 

[Blad01]

LOL Old King Koal ^^ Are you saying, through your sarcasm, that F-Tilt is effective against an aggressive Pikachu ? ^^

I read all your posts guys, you gave great precisions on the match-up, and i have to thank to you for your contribution

So we talked about D-Smash, Pikachu Aerials, Thunder and Thunder bolt, chaingrabs, but i feel that we didn't talk enough of :

-> QAC. Yes we mentionned it, but maybe we underestimate it. It can be followed by aerials (particulary Dair) / Thunder, but even more important, others QAC...

-> The lasers situation, and Pikachu's crawling. Is it more scaring that SNake's ? What do you think of Pikachu D-Tilt ? His crawling can also be followed by a QAC.

-> Thunder edgeguard, or how to get free damages while performing a phantasm ^^

Any thoughts on these points ?

(~ On a side note, i added in the first post each Week's Character beginning and ending posts)

 

[SlashTalon]

Pika only has a CG on you if you do something wrong. His Fthrow-DI down and spotdodge the next grab.
Dthrow-DI up and behind him and jump you will footstool him.