Match-Up Discussion #6! Mr. Game and Watch

[Neb]

I'm not 100% sure but I think Marth can also hit the items coming from the pan as well if in the event that the distance widened enough for gw to do chef.

Or marth could simply walk away out of range from the projectiles

Chef doesn't operate like mainstream projectiles, its mostly efficient in pressuring.
The foods come out at random trajectories, but will always cover the same distance, just at different time spans. G&W can use chef to couple with his approaches, and to stress Marth. If he continues to retreat, Marth is being pulled into an edgeguard scenario. There are practically punishments for 90% of Marth's attempted counter responses.

 

[_Kadaj_]

But if doesn't pull away then gw has a serious problem on his hands

 

[3xSwords]

Marth will only be stressed if you massed like 5 of them
1. Marth should not be letting you do this. He should be on your *** the whole match
2. Only works when Marth is hanging from the ledge, guess you can get a free hit here but probably the only viable situation
3. If you go to the other side of the stage and do it, you will get 2 max out before Marth runs up and DB's
4. If you happen to mass 5-6 pieces, one strike from fair can take out 3 max at a time, although trajectory may be random the rate at which Marth negates them is faster than you produce.... so even though it may be a pain in the *** for Marth it really won't affect (should not affect) him.

 

[Neb]

But if doesn't pull away then gw has a serious problem on his hands

No, because if he doesn't pull himself away, he's asking for licks.
Especially if he is hit by one of the foods.

Marth will only be stressed if you massed like 5 of them
1. Marth should not be letting you do this. He should be on your *** the whole match
2. Only works when Marth is hanging from the ledge, guess you can get a free hit here but probably the only viable situation
3. If you go to the other side of the stage and do it, you will get 2 max out before Marth runs up and DB's
4. If you happen to mass 5-6 pieces, one strike from fair can take out 3 max at a time, although trajectory may be random the rate at which Marth negates them is faster than you produce.... so even though it may be a pain in the *** for Marth it really won't affect (should not affect) him.

That's why its used at a distance. You can control the pace at which he produces the projectiles by tapping b at a quicker pace. If you're retreating chef, by the time G&W lands, there's already 3-4 foods in action. Marth strikes the foods, he experiences hit lag, and since the the objects are disjointed, G&W has a few extra frames to follow-up, post-stun.

Chef sends its projectiles at varied arcs. Marth can't just skip in and throw out a fair because the higher flipped foods will contact. While Marth waste time fanning the projectiles, he leaves himself open for even more food because his spacing game is being distressed.

 

[_Kadaj_]

You can f-air through 3 of them at once and can still hit gw while doing so.

And if marth is playing correctly then there's no way he should have enough room to be doing chef unharmed in the 1st place.

 

[SwordmasterXXXI]

Not that it's game breaking or easy to replicate, but if G&W baits a counter, he has an opening for a smash. It's happened to me before, and it sucks.

I don't use counter on characters like G&W at high %. It's just too risky.

 

[A2ZOMG]

How does G&W camp with Nair? And why can't Marth just counter/f-tilt/f-smash/use any other move that outranges it?

If Marth whiffs something while G&W is edgecamping, he gets hit by N-air. G&W can drop down from the ledge and N-air, or if Marth gets too close, he eats the N-air as it hits through the stage.

You CAN'T punish G&W while he's edgecamping basically.

 

[3xSwords]

Ok so then the Marth player will be smart and punish you when you try to get onto the stage.

 

[Neb]

You can f-air through 3 of them at once and can still hit gw while doing so.

And if marth is playing correctly then there's no way he should have enough room to be doing chef unharmed in the 1st place.

If G&W double jumps backwards while tossing food, by the time he touches the ground there are 3-4 projectiles in exercise. Considering he just spaced using a jump, a fair is easily punished, seeing as though the foods will be blocking a high, mid, and ground approach. Like you said, if he fairs, G&W is already done with with chef by the time he lands. When Marth runs in and fairs, he's punished by G&W, or the food.

You make it sound like chef can't reach behind Marth?
It goes from air, to ground during its arch, and depending on the trajectory, Marth can't approach the same each time.

Ok so then the Marth player will be smart and punish you when you try to get onto the stage.

Why would he want to get back on stage?
But if he did, Chef can be used to pressure, and soften his return.

 

[cutter]

Chef helps to help augment G&W's spacing. The food helps to give G&W cover and it can be a bit tough to get through a salvo of them coming from random trajectories. Note that this is both a benefit and a drawback. Sometimes the opponent gets stuck in all the food trying to swat away at one or they all miss and G&W is wide open for punishment. IMO it's a pretty situational move that has its benefits against characters who don't have projectiles (ie DK and Ike).

I just find this matchup to be incredibly boring because it's just one giant poke war. If G&W messes up his spacing he gets nailed by Marth's side B or up B. If Marth whiffs a smash, Up B, or Counter he gets punished badly by G&W.

 

[_Kadaj_]

He can just walk under you while your jumping and using chef and then shield and DS or punsih accordingly out of shield.
It sounds good in writing but in action its not so grand

I've played more than my fair share of this match way too many times.
And ppl have tried that. Doesn't work to well in the end for them

Marth can also come under you and up-air while your doing chef. Chef has some ending lag and the food doesn't hit immediatly upon release it has to arch somewhat.
This can also become predictable as I doubt any smart player would fall to this setup more than twice tops

 

[3xSwords]

If G&W double jumps backwards while tossing food, by the time he touches the ground there are 3-4 projectiles in exercise. Considering he just spaced using a jump, a fair is easily punished, seeing as though the foods will be blocking a high, mid, and ground approach. Like you said, if he fairs, G&W is already done with with chef by the time he lands. When Marth runs in and fairs, he's punished by G&W, or the food.

You make it sound like chef can't reach behind Marth?
It goes from air, to ground during its arch, and depending on the trajectory, Marth can't approach the same each time.



Why would he want to get back on stage?
But if he did, Chef can be used to pressure, and soften his return.

Situation 1: While you are full jumping I just run directly under you and u-smash

I can also just space a fair properly and not miss, because the food travels in an arch non of it will probably reach Marth if he hits G&W who is in the air with the top tip of his fair

Ok so what does it matter that chef will reach behind Marth?

This stuff really won't change the match up ratio so let's just stop.

I'll give you this chef works... occasionally. That is all

 

[Neb]

Situation 1: While you are full jumping I just run directly under you and u-smash

I can also just space a fair properly and not miss, because the food travels in an arch non of it will probably reach Marth if he hits G&W who is in the air with the top tip of his fair

Ok so what does it matter that chef will reach behind Marth?

This stuff really won't change the match up ratio so let's just stop.

I'll give you this chef works... occasionally. That is all

Who said it changes the ratio?
I said its good for backing up approaches.

 

[_Kadaj_]

He can but meh.... Seems my argument is done.
Its all yours now 3X lol

 

[3xSwords]

what kadaj? lol right man Anyway... chef will occasionally block Marth's approach during a match. I'll give it too you.

But remember you are relying on Marth f***in up his spacing while we are determining whether or not your strategy is legit by Marth properly spacing. Properly spacing = no go for using chef therefore its not a legitimate strategy in order to block Marth's approach on a consistent basis.

Also nothing does stop us from just backing off, out of the range of the chef pieces. You say we are giving up ground but that really doesn't matter, because you will have to stop firing the pieces eventually, in order to move forward and actually gain ground on Marth. By the time you stop and move your last few pieces will die into the ground and it becomes a neutral position except you lack the chef pieces since Marth is charging at you.

Result? Nothing good for G&W

Basically the chef will only get you the occasional damage, and will surprise the opponent occasionally when used sparingly but a consistent counter? no, you got to be joking me.

 

[Pr0phetic]

I saw my friend do this too a GaW:

While doing chef, he dashed, SHd, countered, then countered again. It brought him into an inefficient range to use Chef, but is that effective against a good GaW?

 

[_Kadaj_]

Probably not ^

 

[Jibbles]

Bump

G&W has a new technique that stops his momentum even in knockback. It's called Bucket Braking, in which G&W uses Nair immediately after he's hit, and then bucket to completely stop the momentum. This allows him to potentially become one of the hardest characters to kill under certain circumstances. How will this affect the match up?

 

[Steel]

Not at all.

 

[_Kadaj_]

^ is that why this was bumped?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Marth is a character that actually has trouble scoring KOs however.

G&W is also one of those few characters that can hit Marth out of his Up-B reliably (D-air edgeguard. Watch out for stagespikes)

I feel that the matchup should be 45/55. Simply because it's fact G&W will live significantly longer than Marth, and because he can very effectively capitalize on Marth's recovery. Aside from the fact G&W is very good at punishing Marth if Marth ever goes above him.

 

[Steel]

GW will live longer than Marth? Huh??

GW is among the lightest (if not THE lightest) in the game. While GW can kill Marth earlier (not counting tipper), he has a REALLY hard time landing kill moves in this match up.

 

[Zankoku]

Canceling your momentum with bucket will not help when a tipper attack kills you before your nair can even end.

 

[3xSwords]

Marth is a character that actually has trouble scoring KOs however.

G&W is also one of those few characters that can hit Marth out of his Up-B reliably (D-air edgeguard. Watch out for stagespikes)

I feel that the matchup should be 45/55. Simply because it's fact G&W will live significantly longer than Marth, and because he can very effectively capitalize on Marth's recovery. Aside from the fact G&W is very good at punishing Marth if Marth ever goes above him.

Marth will almost never go above anybody. That being said hitting us out of our DS isn't too significant because if Marth delays his DS at all we will be able to hit you out of your Dair. If you do normal dair we can sweet spot edge while you zoom past us, if you do slow fall dair we can delay and hit you out of it. Hitting Marth out of his upB requires good timing on G&W's part and even then good DI and teching can ensure Marth return onto the stage.

G&W is one of the easier characters to land the KO move on for Marth imo.

 

[_Kadaj_]

dude we've already gone over this match-up in and out.

and you've already stated the d-air stage spike thing.

canceling momentum will only work at certain distances. if you get hit with say a tipper d-smash or f-smash (at killing percents) the hit stun great enough to keep to be able from momentum canceling or bucket breaking.

its like the equvilant of getting knee'd by captain falcon at kill percents 9 times out of 10 you WILL die

 

[A2ZOMG]

Canceling your momentum with bucket will not help when a tipper attack kills you before your nair can even end.

You can survive a tippered F-smash at 95% on FD from the center. A good G&W will DI tippered hits, and I presume that they will also make it very difficult for you to land a kill move from near the blastzone. All he has to do is get behind you if you're near the ledge trying to edgeguard him, and you'll be hard pressed to KO him.

G&W has F-air out of shield on Marth btw.This is one way he can punish Marth's unsafe kill moves that can KO Marth back if Marth is not careful.

 

[_Kadaj_]

why would marth tipper f-smash in the middle of fd?

Except ankoku lol

 

[A2ZOMG]

Well, G&W is not going to let you land a tippered F-smash from near the ledge easily LOL.

 

[_Kadaj_]

lol but that's all situational stuff

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'd say landing a F-smash by far is more situational, since G&W can punish that out of shield with his own F-smash.

 

[_Kadaj_]

with bad spacing they'll get hit

f-smash shouldn't be thrown around recklessly tho

 

[Steel]

You aren't going to let us land an fsmash?

Fine, we won't let you hit us with smashes either!

 

[_Kadaj_]

lol his are telegraphed

 

[**Havok**]

I'd say landing a F-smash by far is more situational, since G&W can punish that out of shield with his own F-smash.

marth fsmash is easy to land if they chase you with turtle or hit late with a g&w fair

 

[jmanup85]

i have no problems vs G&W,if his bair is used incorrectly i can d-tilt or simply f-tilt and imo thats his best move in this match up

 

[Pr0phetic]

You aren't going to let us land an fsmash?

Fine, we won't let you hit us with smashes either!

The nerve of GaWs these days, sheesh.
And if they try we'll punish with counter.

 

[_Kadaj_]

Or just jab him to death lol

 

[A2ZOMG]

i have no problems vs G&W,if his bair is used incorrectly i can d-tilt or simply f-tilt and imo thats his best move in this match up

N-air, U-throw, Up-B, and F-air are much more important to G&W in this matchup. Also D-air offstage.

Oh, and be really careful when air dodging above G&W. That can get you Up-smashed if he reads where you land.

 

[Steel]

it's still 60:40

 

[_Kadaj_]

Pretty much