Match-Up Discussion #6! Mr. Game and Watch

[VietGeek]

did you lot know that G&W dtilt

clashes with alot of marths attacks man thats a broken dtilt

We're not going to make this a "Who is more broken than Marth"discussion either.

Anyway, it does clash a lot, but our Dtilt out prioritizes it.

 

[VietGeek]

I call it SH fair takes care of one dtilt at a time

Thankfully the G&W I play doesn't abuse the dtilt as much as he should.

Also against G&W is it better to tech d-throw or not at all? I mean I'm only asking this because teching sets up for a ridiculous u-smash tech chase which he has. So is it better to take the chance of getting hit by u-smash while teching or not tech and get hit by a d-smash, worst case scenario.

You can DI behind him by tapping that direction to get thrown that way, from there, you can just roll away or tech away.

If he tech chases too early, this can be a mindgame where you DI behind, but tech in place. You can then punish his Usmash.

No, it's doubtful it will ever work. Just play smart. <_<

****, forgot I double posted. =(

 

[3xSwords]

lololololololololololol

Whew stepmania skills helped me pull of that one in .2 sec

Anyway, true Viet. The usmash does have a slow start up time so its possible to interrupt, however, if you tech in place they can easily grab you again. But then there's that whole play smart thing.

In reality I think I'm just jealous G&W has such an amazing tech chasing inducer that doesn't Marth have.

 

[VietGeek]

lololololololololololol

Whew stepmania skills helped me pull of that one in .2 sec

Anyway, true Viet. The usmash does have a slow start up time so its possible to interrupt, however, if you tech in place they can easily grab you again. But then there's that whole play smart thing.

In reality I think I'm just jealous G&W has such an amazing tech chasing inducer that doesn't Marth have.

That's why you DI the throw to make you appear behind him. Most people don't know you can DI the throw in that fashion so it'll force the GW player to guess how you'll get out. From then, you can tech or roll out/stand up.

In other news, VietGeek sucks at teching it so he spams Fair in hopes of not getting grabbed. xD

 

[3xSwords]

Well pivot grabbing is pretty **** and not that hard to do. Btw if they just decide to single jab>grab it can also catch you if you DI behind him. Although I believe you could DS the grab, but you can pretty much DS everything in this game XD.

Is G&W's grab range big or just average? And what is your best option against his dash attack besides countering and DS'ing?

Edit: What makes G&W's dash attack "good" when it is slow as hell?

 

[Steel]

I think it has a lingering hit box, but his dash attack sucks imo. Just shield and punish.

 

[VietGeek]

Well pivot grabbing is pretty **** and not that hard to do. Btw if they just decide to single jab>grab it can also catch you if you DI behind him. Although I believe you could DS the grab, but you can pretty much DS everything in this game XD.

Is G&W's grab range big or just average? And what is your best option against his dash attack besides countering and DS'ing?

Edit: What makes G&W's dash attack "good" when it is slow as hell?

1. That's why you make yourself go behind him from the Dthrow instead of in front sparingly. Mix up how you DI it, how you tech or roll out to keep him guessing. If he doesn't suspect it, he won't pivot grab in time, especially if you DI behind him AND tech away. Like I said, he can counter your responses, but he's not a level 9 CPU. Keep him guessing and he can't counter your responses all the time.

2. It's okay. Average.

3. Like Steel said, it lingers. It also throws them upward for some Uair or to follow with Usmash. Really it sucks as badly as ours. xD

 

[Hype]

his dash attack has good priority, I beats MK's tornado.

 

[Steel]

Last day until we move on to another character.

*waits for Emblem lord's giant post

 

[grandmaster192]

Thanks to NEO and Steel2nd, I have decided to work on up b out of shield. I used against the turtle and it worked. If it wasn't for this thread I would never have even thought of it, and if not for NEO making it look very cool in that Lucario vid I wouldn't have considered using it even if I did think of it.

Mad props to NEO and steel.

 

[Steel]

Yeah, the up b out of shield has so many freaking uses. It's a broken move when someone knows how to use it. It's something I use a lot in my game lately, unfortunately i may make some mistakes and wiff the up-b, that equals punishment ><

Still, use it. Master it.

 

[grandmaster192]

The only problem is I don't play with the tap jump on... I think it works without it. You gotta press the jump button or something, right???

 

[Steel]

Yeah I believe so, but it's harder to input and may come out slightly later than simply doing up b. If it does come out later, that's bad because you need the initial invincibility frames that the up b comes with.

 

[grandmaster192]

What do you think about switching the r button to jump? That might make it easier to do without the tap jump. I'm gonna do some experimenting.

 

[Steel]

You can try it, whatever works.

 

[Hype]

so does up B out of shield work vs. G&W bair with tap jump off? If not I'm gonna consider another jump button.

 

[Emblem Lord]

If you leave tap jump off then you would need to jump first since you can't up b out of shield with analog. This means that you wouldn't be able to abuse the invincibility frames from the up b since you would have to jump from your shield first which is slower and makes you vulnerable for at least 1 frame before you could up b.

I should shoot everyone who would even think of maining Marth and playing with tap jump off.

All of you kill yourselves now.

Also, I'm just gonna repost some stuff for the G&W match-up since nothing has really changed about it. Then I will make some comments.

Game & Watch - Someone got buffed. Alot. Wow. Holy cr*p. >_> So yeah, he is a force to be reckoned with. He has slightly less range then Marth in the air and a Uair that will push you up even if it doesn't connect. Also his Bair tends to shield stab unless your shield is near full. His grab can set up a tech chasing game, but remember that you can tech the d-throw much like Fox and Falco's D-throw in Melee. You can tech in place or roll in either direction. You can also DI left or right to alternate where you land when you hit the ground. His d-tilt has good range but you can outspace it as well as all his other moves. You have the advantage in range and speed, while he has the advantage in kill moves. His Dair is safe on block so don't bother trying to punish him for it when he uses it. You can't really gimp G&W since his recovery is so good, but that's ok since he is one of the games feather weights and he will die early even from non-tipper smashes. So since G&W's kills very well and he is light you will both be killing at the same percents more or less. This is a match where you can camp pretty easily and adjust your spacing easily as well since G&W's projectile isn't good and you have more range then him. So just rely on your fairs, f-tilts, d-tilts superior speed and mobility to keep him out and force him to get past your blade. Punish him for any errors and you should come out on top. But be very careful. G&W kills at obscenely low percents even with good DI, so watch that spacing.

G&W's advantages

- Better kill moves
- Lasting hitboxes
- Better recovery
- Great offense/pressure game

Marth's advantages

- Faster and has more mobility
- More range
- Heavier
- Awesome defensive game


Marth vs G&W is one big spacing war. On paper Marth has more things going for him. More speed, more range, he has answers for G&W's offensive game and G&W can't really edgeguard him effectively. But in the match-up G&W's raw killing power is enough to keep him in the game and make the match very close.

In this match G&W can't abuse his offense as much. Doing aerials to up b to more aerials takes a hit due to Marth's range and his counter. After the first aerial Marth can just counter and stuff G&W. And if G&W doesn't space perfectly on Marth's shield he eats up b. If he does Fair on Marth's shield he could eat an U-smash. G&W also can't abuse his up b to dair or fast falling aerials also due to counter and Marth's U-smash.

G&W must play more patient then he is used to I would imagine. This is actually probably the most boring match-up for G&W players since any carelessness or miscalculation will be punished by Marth. So the safest thing to do is just Turtle dance, but Marth can play that game equally well with his good aerial mobility. He can weave back and forth in the air with ease just as G&W can. And since Marth has more range, he has a bit more leeway then G&W.

G&W however has the ability to simply throw out kill moves when Marth is at higher percents. His kill moves are fairly safe on block unlike Marth's. So he has more leeway in that department. Still G&W is second lightest in the game and a tipper is devastating. And don't think Tipper F-smash is the only threat. Tipper D-smash is Marth's second strongest smash attack and can kill G&W in the mid 90's. Untipped it can kill in the low hundreds and it comes out in frame 6. Also Marth's tipper F-smash is actually pretty safe on block so be aware of that.

Edgeguarding...bah. Neither character can really edgeguard the other. Although G&W might be able to get some hits in a bit better then Marth can because he has the better recovery.

Also be aware that Marth doesn't have to go air to air to beat G&W's aerials. He could just do an f-smash or an f-tilt to stuff G&W's aerials.

The key to this match-up is patience.

There are some outdated things in the first quote though. Marth can up b out of shield to punish Dair, and on occasion I have done shield drop to Dancing Blade if it I was close enough.

I really need to test if Marth can do an angled up b out of shield to hit a full spaced Bair from G&W. Also you can up b out of shield while he is hitting your shield thanks to the invincibility frames. This is why you leave tap jump on.

Marth has the tools to stuff Bairs though thanks to f-tilt and F-smash. I don't go into the air much vs G&W unless he wants to camp with d-tilts, but even then you could throw out a d-tilt of your own or an f-smash.

Generally Marth can stuff just about anything G&W throws at him and only a fully spaced Bair from G&W is really safe and of course his smashes are safe as well. G&W can try to camp with chef, but it's more of a nuisance then a threat.

Also I know G&W can space a d-tilt to hit Marth when he is on the ledge and make it very hard to get back on the stage. This was done to me in tournament, on Yoshi's story. I think on any other stage Marth's up b would hit through the stage and knock G&W away, but it needs to be tested. Although I'm thinking that Marth could just ledge jump counter or something and that might work too. As I said, it really needs to be tested.

Overall I give it to Marth at 60/40 since he is faster with more range and can defend against G&W's offense alot better then pretty much the entire cast save for maybe Snake. Once he has G&W on defense he can rely more on his range to zone G&W. But G&W's raw damage output, good recovery, and good kill moves keep him in the game.

 

[3xSwords]

Well discussion for this is over but back on your point EL. How would you be able to upB while being attacked by bair? I mean wouldn't you be stuffed as soon as your invincibility frames end? Or does Marth upB actually have a hitbox in one of the invincibility frames?

 

[Emblem Lord]

There is a hitbox on the last frame of invincibility which is frame 5. This is what allows Marth to up b and hit MK when MK is right on top of his shield with Mach Tornado.

 

[OmegaXF]

Shuffling N-airs help in the long run. Also Don't spot dodge his F-smash because the hitboxs last long enough to hit you right after your done. Other than that Marth really has no Problems against GW!

 

[Steel]

this is such a bad match up for gw

i declare 65:35

 

[Remzi]

You know, I would agree with you, but the simple fact that he can kill you so dang early makes me wanna keep it where it is.

 

[Steel]

Exactly how is he going to land a kill move?

 

[grandmaster192]

Exactly how is he going to land a kill move?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but can't G&W dthrow into smash and insure a hit?

 

[Steel]

No he can't if you tech. It's hard for GW to grab anyways, and chances are he won't be dsmashing.

 

[Pierce7d]

Also, G&W really gets WRECKED by counter. It stops all of his predictable aerials and smashes. Countering one of G&W's smashes gives you that early finisher, which is deadly vs such a light character.

 

[3xSwords]

Not only that but you can shield pressure the **** out of him because the only really good option he has OOS is his upB. And if you are spaced correctly that will miss, and you can either outspace his dair with uair or go for the simpler tactic of countering any aerial the moment you see it.

 

[K 2]

Exactly how is he going to land a kill move?

The safest way to landing a smash out of a dthrow techchase, which usually results in a hyphen smash. His fair has nice knockback and comes out really fast. Chair also kills at higher percents (150%?) and it is also really fast.

 

[Steel]

The safest way to landing a smash out of a dthrow techchase, which usually results in a hyphen smash. His fair has nice knockback and comes out really fast. Chair also kills at higher percents (150%?) and it is also really fast.

Marth really shouldn't be getting grabbed too often though. I agree with the rest.

Whatever, i'm suddenly fine with 60 40.

 

[_Kadaj_]

Why was this being redressed?

 

[K 2]

Marth really shouldn't be getting grabbed too often though. I agree with the rest.

Whatever, i'm suddenly fine with 60 40.

I agree that G&W has a hard time landing smashes. The trade off is, his smashes can kill heavyweights at around 100%, and it can kill lighter characters in the 80's. G&W is all about punishment; he waits for his opportunities to land his kill moves. If you roll the wrong way, if you spotdodge one too many times, if you miss a counter, you will be brutally punished for it. If marth spaces correctly, a G&W should NEVER be in grab range. Be careful with DB, b/c if he shields the whole thing, he can smash you or do a dthrow into whatever followup on you.

 

[_Kadaj_]

If you di up when he b-airs it only does about 4-6% and you can f-air him before he can do anything.

Thus taking away his ability to rack rack massive damage with that move.

With proper spacing is n-air becomes ineffective due to the fact that it can't get past your sword.

F-air is laggy and predictable and easily punished when missed.

You can also DS out of sheild if he b-airs while your blocking.

I'm done lol just felt the need to reinterate some things that I didn't post when this thread 1st was made

 

[A2ZOMG]

DIing the B-air isn't exactly easy. You can only DI it reliably if you are hit with the beginning part of it. But forget that since you can just counter or outspace it.

Usually G&W should be approaching with shield. The main advantage he has in this matchup is his ridiculous ability to juggle, and the fact you can't edgeguard him. His N-air edgecamping is also really good, so it's not worth trying to punish him at the ledge.

G&W has no lag on F-air from fullhop and he has quite a bit of DI, so good luck punishing that easily. I'm pretty sure it hits Marth on the ground unless he crouches. It comes out frame 10, so it's pretty fast too.

Also, G&W CAN edgeguard Marth with D-air. It will trade hits with Up-B most of the time IIRC, so watch out for stagespikes.

 

[_Kadaj_]

If his beat approach is with shield then that's a bad thing considering marth has a shield breaker lol and his grab range is bad so he won't be shield grabbing after wards.

It would need testing but I font think he'd be able to f-air afterwards not sure.

^ or instead of that you could still keep him at bay even if he's approaching with shield marth can just pressure his shield until it gets low. And proceed to shield stab from there.

Bottom line he's a great character but against marth he has minimal options to get inside that begin to become predictable as the match progresses not to mention if it was an entire set

 

[Bomber7]

yeah, it's hard to argue. G&W has range not to mention he's got speed and in most instances can kill you in a short time. He is a REAL pain to us PT players. It's not even funny.

 

[Dark Sonic]

His N-air edgecamping is also really good, so it's not worth trying to punish him at the ledge.

How does G&W camp with Nair? And why can't Marth just counter/f-tilt/f-smash/use any other move that outranges it?

 

[_Kadaj_]

Gw can drop down and use n-air so it kinda drags you off the edge but marth can just sit back at a distance to where he can react to gw when he tries to get on stage

 

[Neb]

IMO, G&W's best approach against Marth is in combination of chef.
Everything else is on slippery ground.

 

[_Kadaj_]

If marth spaces well with his attacks he should be at the range to where he is just out of range of gw's attacks while close enough to punish his attacks.

I'm not 100% sure but I think Marth can also hit the items coming from the pan as well if in the event that the distance widened enough for gw to do chef.

Or marth could simply walk away out of range from the projectiles

 

[Remzi]

Exactly how is he going to land a kill move?

Not that it's game breaking or easy to replicate, but if G&W baits a counter, he has an opening for a smash. It's happened to me before, and it sucks.