Match-Up Discussion #28! Ike

[AndrewCarlson]

If Marth grabbed the ledge first, the invincibility frames would end when Aether starts to go down- meaning Ike would knock Marth down and grab the ledge.

 

[Kirk]

I just got irked by "Marth won't get jabbed by Ike" ...that's just going too far.

I'm well aware they can both do ****. People just take things too extremely sometimes and it makes me sad :/

If Marth grabbed the ledge first, the invincibility frames would end when Aether starts to go down- meaning Ike would knock Marth down and grab the ledge.

This depends. One can time an edgehug RIGHT before The sword gets up top, and can sucessfully keep invincibility and kill Ike in one fell swoop.(Timing getting up just right to increase invincibility.) Ike can naturally counter this by going onto the stage...but that is a less favorable position also. Further, if Ike has no choice in the matter and HAS to grab the ledge...there's not a whole lot he can do.

 

[Emblem Lord]

No. Aether moves down too quickly. Marth can actually roll up the ledge and Ike will die.

 

[Steel]

I just got irked by "Marth won't get jabbed by Ike" ...that's just going too far.

I'm well aware they can both do ****. People just take things too extremely sometimes and it makes me sad :/

I just said in my last post "obviously Marth will get jabbed." >_>

 

[YagamiLight]

When you are being zoned the SH nair will take too long.
It can be auto-cancelled, and it's not like the Nair is his only fast attack anyways.

What i'm saying is if marth keeps spacing he won't even have to worry about the jab.
Obviously he will get hit by it sometimes, but he can up b out. Ike would have to predict this and shield if he KNOWS marth will do it.
Then it becomes a matter of prediction, and if Marth makes the mistake he's takingmore damage than Ike is with the Dolphin Slash.

No, but that's about all he can do.
It's most certianly not all he can do, but that's another story.

The way I'm picturing this would be Marth and Ike up b'ng back up at the same time. Marth's being much faster would in turn gimp Ikes.
That's one scenario in which the both up B at the same time. If either Marth or Ike Up B later than the other, the Ike gets back safely.

How are you going to "easily bait?" If marth just dashes to shield your forward air is easily punished.
Retreating Fair here would work, as by the time Marth drops the shield and comes closer Ike will be able to act.

But you need to let it go on the precise frame, it's just a very hard thing to land and Marth can mix up the timing.

I'm assuming that both the Ike and Marth are of a very high calibur and Ike can time Eruption very well. Obviously, if Marth decides to Dancing Blade in between or something, Ike shall have to react accordingly.

Well, I'm basically going to go to bed soon, so I probably won't respond to the reply for this until tomorrow. I still staunchly maintain a 6-4 Marth's advantage, but you are free to do as you wish.

 

[HeroMystic]

Why do I feel like everything from page 2 and 3 are just being repeated?

Just go with the 65:35. Actual matches can vary from extensive use of mindgames, but from base value the rating seems quite logical.

 

[Kirk]

No. Aether moves down too quickly. Marth can actually roll up the ledge and Ike will die.

I just said in my last post "obviously Marth will get jabbed." >_>

Man this thread is moving quickly :o

I just commented on the same thing EL said previously...and I apologize I must have missed your last post while I was typing.

 

[Steel]

I'm not responding to this one. This debate is getting stupid.

Everything has been stated, I think we just have a different look on ratios.

 

[AndrewCarlson]

Why do you think it's stupid? There are some very valid points being made. You don't have to agree, but they're good points to consider nonetheless.

 

[Kirk]

Well I think the thing is...there's basically argument over whether it should be 60-40 or 65-35...that's not THAT big of a difference here.

Were pretty much all in agreement that Marth has more going for him than Ike, but it's just a matter of how much...

It's been reasonably civil...I don't mind discussing further if others do. Though there might not be much reason to. *shrug*

 

[Steel]

Why do you think it's stupid? There are some very valid points being made.

You want me to respond to his post again? An argument like we were having there will just keep going. It's just a "if marth does this, then ike can just do this" kind of thing. But whatever..

"It can be auto-cancelled, and it's not like the Nair is his only fast attack anyways."

I was referring to the start up time which includes the initial SH frames.

"Then it becomes a matter of prediction, and if Marth makes the mistake he's takingmore damage than Ike is with the Dolphin Slash."

Sure.

"It's most certianly not all he can do, but that's another story."

These are Ike's positives in the match up. His inert abilities. Marth simply outclasses him in every other area.

"That's one scenario in which the both up B at the same time. If either Marth or Ike Up B later than the other, the Ike gets back safely."

mmhmmm

"I'm assuming that both the Ike and Marth are of a very high calibur and Ike can time Eruption very well. Obviously, if Marth decides to Dancing Blade in between or something, Ike shall have to react accordingly."

Perhaps. It's just something I can't see being a big part of this match up.

See? Stupid

 

[HeroMystic]

Why do you think it's stupid? There are some very valid points being made. You don't have to agree, but they're good points to consider nonetheless.

All the points were laid out in page 2 and 3. We're just at the point of "THIS! NO THIS!"

65:35 is fine. We Ikes can keep the 60:40 since it's a matter of opinion at this point. Every match-up thread has a little bit of bias anyway.

I don't care much about the number anyway. They destroy good match-up threads. Just show me how to win and I'll be on my way.

 

[Shaya]

Ike can win, he just has to out predict all of Marth's ground and short hop approaches every single time .

 

[AndrewCarlson]

Well, you either accept their opinions or you don't. I personally find their statements to be very interesting and enlightening. I don't think they are as stubborn and biased as some of the character boards.

 

[AndrewCarlson]

I don't care much about the number anyway. They destroy good match-up threads. Just show me how to win and I'll be on my way.

Here, here.

 

[YagamiLight]

You want me to respond to his post again? An argument like we were having there will just keep going. It's just a "if marth does this, then ike can just do this" kind of thing. But whatever..

"It can be auto-cancelled, and it's not like the Nair is his only fast attack anyways."

I was referring to the start up time which includes the initial SH frames.

"Then it becomes a matter of prediction, and if Marth makes the mistake he's takingmore damage than Ike is with the Dolphin Slash."

Sure.

"It's most certianly not all he can do, but that's another story."

These are Ike's positives in the match up. His inert abilities. Marth simply outclasses him in every other area.

"That's one scenario in which the both up B at the same time. If either Marth or Ike Up B later than the other, the Ike gets back safely."

mmhmmm

"I'm assuming that both the Ike and Marth are of a very high calibur and Ike can time Eruption very well. Obviously, if Marth decides to Dancing Blade in between or something, Ike shall have to react accordingly."

Perhaps. It's just something I can't see being a big part of this match up.

See? Stupid

Since I decided I don't feel like sleeping, I may as well answer here.

You're right in that a debate like this can potentially go on forever. "Ike does this, what do you do? But then what if Marth does this in return?!"

I have no problems admitting that Marth has more things over Ike than vice versa. The main reason I think it's 60-40 is that Ike is not at a significant disadvantage, his natural traits do pull through very well here. It may be, as you said, a matter of disagreeing on ratios. You can say 65-35, we can say 60-40, but the actual characters and the match doesn't change because of it.

tl;dr - It's your match-up guide, so put whatever number you want. I just highly recommend you make it 6-4 instead of 6.5-3.5.

 

[Kinzer]

I have the solution!

62.5 - 37.5 advantage, Marth!

Now let's all be friends huh?




Now being serious, I am kind of leaning towards the 6-4 advantage Marth but then again it can be 65-35 depending on how people play the game, with Ike Vs Marth it's a battle to read your opponent first, whoever can do this will have a better chance of winning over the opponent. As for stating specific facts it's already been mentioned and I'm not going to go through all the trouble to post them again.

 

[AndrewCarlson]

I have the solution!

63.5 - 37.5 advantage, Marth!

Now let's all be friends huh?

I believe that would 62.5 - 37.5

 

[Kinzer]

Fine Fine, just edit your post accordingly please so that first time readers can get the joke (assuming they weren't good with Math on the fly like I am, they would still laugh anyway. )

Spreading laughes across the interweb is my job.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

You are bad at your job.

 

[Shaya]

Ike Vs Marth it's a battle to read your opponent first, whoever can do this will have a better chance of winning over the opponent..

Mind games aren't apart of this; as you stated afterwards.

But you must realise the facts lean the match up beyond 60-40.

Look at other match ups of the 60-40 range.

Falco for example. How would a top tier character as Falco have a similar match up disadvantage to Marth as Ike does? It doesn't seem right considering all the things Falco CAN DO.

Ike has power and better range on some of his attacks. That's all.

 

[3xSwords]

Let's see here.....

Ike's jab comes out frame 2 not 3, faster than any option Marth has besides DS. Not significant in normal confrontation, because Marth should be spacing properly and wouldn't get hit.

Marth can not effectively juggle Ike, well actually it is possible, but just a lot harder to do. Ike with huge lingering hitbox on his dair prevents it from happening. This isn't that big of a problem seeing how Marth ***** Ike up front.

Ike can absolutely DESTROY Marth from below. This is where Marth's light weight absolutely screws him over. Uair outlasts a air dodge, so even if a Marth air dodges it will still mean death at like 80-90%. The problem is getting Marth up there.... (Which will happen occasionally, so Ike's must be opportune)

Timed correctly dash attack will get through fair zoning. But given the fact that this is one of Ike's only viable options, you, the Marth player, knows what they are, and that it telegraphs itself should make it easier to dodge.

This is the problem I see with Ike is that his options are so limited that one can simply deduce most of the time the most appropriate course of action and counter it.

I believe for Ike full range fair is safe on the block. What hasn't been discussed imo, is Ike's full hop fair. This is full hopping and doing fair at optimal speed and requires that the fair initiates as soon as you jump. After the sword swings, you can FF and autocancel. This will beat out Marth's aerial options, if Marth air dodges, the FF will beat him to the ground and Ike can 2 frame jab combo. If Marth stays grounded it will still hit him, due to his height. This means, shielding will knock you back enough so its not punishable, spot dodge and Ike will FF and jab you while in post lag, roll same thing as spot dodging pretty much. As a result Marth can only really counter this by PS'ing. Unless I'm wrong.....

My reasoning:
Ike:
-SA frames
-Heavier
-range
-better hit for hit
-juggling advantage

Marth:
-slightly less range, but speed makes up for it
-Can punish very well
-gimp advantage
-better aerial mobility
-controls flow
-better approaches (besides full hop fair)
-Invincibility frames

Honestly though Ike's full hop fair won't tilt the match so much but at least he has something, so I would say 60-40, and all things you guys said still applies.

 

[3xSwords]

Mind games aren't apart of this; as you stated afterwards.

But you must realise the facts lean the match up beyond 60-40.

Look at other match ups of the 60-40 range.

Falco for example. How would a top tier character as Falco have a similar match up disadvantage to Marth as Ike does? It doesn't seem right considering all the things Falco CAN DO.

Ike has power and better range on some of his attacks. That's all.

Shaya you did not just say that did you? Please tell me you didn't say that b/c that is some ******** ****. Just b/c Falco vs Marth is 60-40 and if we thought Ike vs Marth is also 60-40 it doesn't mean Ike = Falco. Nor does it mean one character is better than the other. **** Shaya that was pretty bad.

 

[Shaya]

Where did I imply that Ike = Falco?

If you have a problem with comprehension then please take the time to ask nicely.

I'm giving an example of a match up which is 60:40 in Marth's favour.
The ike community believes that the match up is also 60:40 in Marth's favour.
Marth:Falco is also the same match up.

Falco's abilities against Marth all up are superior to Ike's in the particular match up yet it is still 60:40.
By logic, I'm stating, how could a character with less option and ability possibly also be worthy of 60:40.

 

[Kizzu-kun]

Not in that aspect 3x.
He is saying that Falco is much more trouble to deal with Marth than Ike, and that is very true.

Ike doesn't have attributes to give Marth this kind of match-up, considering the whole statements in this thread and what we do know about this match-up right now.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=186736
We should be looking with the same direction that we used in every other match-up discussion here.

 

[En.Ee.Oh]

EL? Steel? 70:30?

BOTH OF YA'LL NIGGAS LOSE TO MY IKE

GTFOOOOOOOOOOO

 

[Shaya]

That's why we say 65:35, Neo .

 

[3xSwords]

**** misinterpretation for fail

Sorry about that Shaya I thought you were a n00b for a second

 

[Emblem Lord]

Uhhh. 65/35. And we lost online. Due to lag tactics.

You actually straight up said you were doing **** you would never do IRL my dude.

And you are also the better player so yeah.

This doesn't apply, since match-up ratios are between two equally skilled high level players.

 

[En.Ee.Oh]

true.. run up.. shield cancel f-smash LMFAO!



anyways, i say 60:40 niggas

 

[Steel]

EL? Steel? 70:30?

BOTH OF YA'LL NIGGAS LOSE TO MY IKE

GTFOOOOOOOOOOO

I have lag johns and not-as-good-as-you johns.

 

[Pierce7d]

80-20 Marth. Ike only has jab on Marth really, and Marth outspaces that with dtilt. Marth can straight up gimp the mess outta Ike, and still has fthrow-fsmash on him. Seriously, please tell me what else Ike has on Marth. How does Ike reliably deal damage and K.O. to win?

 

[AndrewCarlson]

Not this again. Read over the thread. Everyone already went to so much trouble to go to 65-35 from 60-40 . I think we should just listen to Emblem Lord; he knows what he's talking about after all.

 

[Kinzer]

Dear God mate, no way in Hell is it 80:20, Ike isn't in an advanteage that's true, but Jeebus he ain't terribad.

 

[AndrewCarlson]

Dear God mate, no way in Hell is it 80:20, Ike isn't in an advanteage that's true, but Jeebus he ain't terribad.

Agreed. 80-20 is ridiculous. Not even the Marth mains (myself included) agree with such a huge advantage for Marth. 65-35 is just about what the majority of the Marth board agrees on, but 60-40 I can see as well. Objectively, most people say that Marth has an advantage but not that big of an advantage.

 

[HeroMystic]

80-20 Marth.

Oh my ****ing god how the **** did you come up with that number?

I'm not even gonna bother replying to that since everything was laid out in the first two pages.

 

[Pierce7d]

lol, @ panic reactions to 80-20.

Seriously, bout 63:35. If Marth gets hit off the stage, Ike actually has decent edgeguarding. Marth's counter is good, but a smart Ike gets around this, and punishes counter happy Marths with charged Fsmash.

 

[HeroMystic]

lol, @ panic reactions to 80-20.

Somehow, I knew it was flame bait.

Seriously, bout 63:35. If Marth gets hit off the stage, Ike actually has decent edgeguarding. Marth's counter is good, but a smart Ike gets around this, and punishes counter happy Marths with charged Fsmash.

Does this mean you're for the 65:35 or 60:40?

And I'm sure Marth can just go for the ledge like always. I don't see why he'd put himself in a position like that.

Spoiler

I d-tilt spiked my Marth friend when he tried to Up-B to the ledge about three hours ago.

 

[Pierce7d]

Definitely not 60-40. When gimping is so easy that I plan to gimp Ike rather than K.O. him, and still beat top level Ike's in tourney, then I'm going to have to definitely push for that 65:35. I mean, Ike has stats going for him, but applying these stats is too hard.

Ike is really heavy, and Marth has no safe finishers on block. But Ike gets gimped really easy, nullifying this advantage.

Ike is really strong, and can kill the lightweight Marth early. But Ike's finishers are slow and Marth has good defensive options.

Ike doesn't have moves with quickness and range, which is dumb. He needed a poke. His ranged poke on the ground is ftilt, and it's bad for poking. So he uses jab, which is good, except now he gets spaced by Marth and owned.

65:35.

 

[AndrewCarlson]

I agree, but gimping top level Ikes isn't as easy as you make it out to be. Most of them see it coming and react accordingly.