Match-Up Discussion #28! Ike

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

I know... That's what I'm saying...



And EL is right, the main thing Marth has to focus on in this matchup is playing safe and not getting hit by Ike's strong moves (aka any move, lol).

 

[AndrewCarlson]

I know, I just meant to throw off the opponent as in use it once so they will see the sword movement, and release B thinking it is a n up-b, only to find out it isn't. Not to use it a lot, onlyas a mixup once of twice.

LOL, it could happen if the Ike user was really edgy. But I don't think it would work on more experienced players, who can easily distinguish between the two. You wouldn't really need it when you're closer to the ledge since Eruption has such a slow start-up. To hit Marth, the Ike would have to release before you use Up-B. A very difficult feat indeed.

 

[Kirk]

Any smart Ike would wait until Marth sweetspots the ledge...then release Eruption when Marth trys to ledgehop to interrupt or when his invincibility wears off. Insta-kill :D (Depending on charge time of course)

 

[Steel]

Any smart Ike would wait until Marth sweetspots the ledge...then release Eruption when Marth trys to ledgehop to interrupt or when his invincibility wears off. Insta-kill :D (Depending on charge time of course)

And a smart marth would never get hit by that.

 

[AndrewCarlson]

How reliable is this match-up chart? They have Marth vs Ike as a small advantage for Marth. Seems pretty accurate for the rest of Marth's match-ups. Only 3 small disadvantages across the whole chart.

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=157979

 

[Steel]

How reliable is this match-up chart? They have Marth vs Ike as a small advantage for Marth. Seems pretty accurate for the rest of Marth's match-ups. Only 3 small disadvantages across the whole chart.

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=157979

That thing is old. Very old.

 

[AndrewCarlson]

And a smart marth would never get hit by that.

I would agree. If Marth has already grabbed the ledge, it would take a big blunder for them to get hit by Eruption.

 

[AndrewCarlson]

That thing is old. Very old.

LOL, it says it was updated September 28th.

 

[Kirk]

And a smart marth would never get hit by that.

And any smart Ike would know he wouldn't get hit by this and...or wait, better yet: A smart Ike would not get hit by any of Marth's attacks at all!

...doesn't seem very productive now does it? :/

The point was there are other options at your disposal...it may only work once, but that may be all that you need.

I would agree. If Marth has already grabbed the ledge, it would take a big blunder for them to get hit by Eruption.

You'd be surprised...

I'm just throwing **** out there...don't mind me. :D

 

[Steel]

LOL, it says it was updated September 28th.

ah it was, but DanGR will be the most accurate and referred one. There is still inaccurate things on that match up chart that was linked.

So are you guys still stuck on 60:40? Or can we settle on 65:35?

 

[HeroMystic]

But let's go back to the on stage battle. Marth obviously dominates off stage. What makes this only a slight disadvantage to Ike when he simply does not have the tools to deal with Marth's zoning/speed/aerial mobility etc?

Ike is a heavy punisher when it comes to lagging moves. Jabs, N-air, grabs, Dash attacks, and F-airs are quick moves that Ike can follow up with if he happens to dodge an attack. It doesn't really take a lot of hits to push Marth off the stage and put him on the defensive. I find it best to punish when Marth is doing his dancing blade. You can grab him in the middle of it or spot dodge the final hit and jab.

F-air is harder to punish though, but not impossible. Ike can hit with the tip of his F-air or do a well-timed C-sticked Dash Attack, and all of methods above are easy for Ike to follow-up with.

And lets not forget that his tilts feels like Smash attacks. F-tilt can effectively kill Marth at 70%, and a misused Up-B from Marth can result in Ike U-Smashing or B-airing for an effective kill as well.

tl;dr: Ike can easily punish any opening Marth gives, and his pressure game can be quite heavy.

On a sidenote: I feel like I'm the only Ike main here discussing this with you guys.

Jab will get ike up bed.

Ike can shield the Up-B if Marth does it too often.

EDIT: I'm inclined to cosign with the 65:35 if no other Ike mains are going to discuss in favor of 60:40.

 

[Emblem Lord]

When I say jab will be up bed I mean it can't reliably be used since if it's blocked it will be punished. Which is bad for Ike since it's his main pressure tool.

 

[Steel]

Yes Ike is a good punisher, but what I'm saying is Marth can play very safe and very gay and Ike can't really do much about it.

Marth also won't be just DB'ng a shield, its a punisher, not an approach.

You can't punish a spaced fair unless you power shield, then I can see dash attack maybe being an option.

You can't punish a spaced dtilt, which is Marth's most used poke.

Ike simply doesn't have the tools to deal with Marth's zoning. He can punish, and that's why we give him 65:35.

 

[AndrewCarlson]

ah it was, but DanGR will be the most accurate and referred one. There is still inaccurate things on that match up chart that was linked.

So are you guys still stuck on 60:40? Or can we settle on 65:35?

But if the match-ups came directly from the respective character's boards, wouldn't bias affect some of the results? I'm okay with 65-35, but 60-40 is not outrageous.

 

[Emblem Lord]

No.

Cuz Marth boards go by facts, movelist and most reliable/safest/effective strats.

 

[Shaya]

Isn't Ike's jab also more of his out of shield tool, like Marth's dancing blade and dolphin slash?

But whatever the case, whatever Ike's tools are, Marth has more or better. I exclude Ike's eruption though, because it is pretty god **** awesome, in some ways. Mainly being it has PH1R3.

 

[AndrewCarlson]

No.

Cuz Marth boards go by facts, movelist and most reliable/safest/effective strats.

That's good to know. But I would still expect the most objective results from the Smash Back Room if they ever released a Match-Up chart.

 

[HeroMystic]

Yes Ike is a good punisher, but what I'm saying is Marth can play very safe and very gay and Ike can't really do much about it.

Marth also won't be just DB'ng a shield, its a punisher, not an approach.

You can't punish a spaced fair unless you power shield, then I can see dash attack maybe being an option.

You can't punish a spaced dtilt, which is Marth's most used poke.

Ike simply doesn't have the tools to deal with Marth's zoning. He can punish, and that's why we give him 65:35.

Well I got nothing, lol. All the Marths I've ever played just try to zone the crap out of me.

I'll agree with the 65:35 unless there's more discussion, which I'm doubting there will be from the looks of it.

Isn't Ike's jab also more of his out of shield tool, like Marth's dancing blade and dolphin slash?

Either that or grabbing. (wonder how it'd be like if Ike had dancing blade).

Kirk loves F-Smash out of Shield though.

 

[AndrewCarlson]

Marth can play very safe and very gay.

LOL, that's Marth alright.

 

[AndrewCarlson]

Either that or grabbing. (wonder how it'd be like if Ike had dancing blade).

That would bring back memories of Roy. I don't recall how the Melee Marth fared against Roy. I assume it was only a small disadvantage for Roy, who was a rather peculiar character. Marth was better in nearly all regards.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

And any smart Ike would know he wouldn't get hit by this and...or wait, better yet: A smart Ike would not get hit by any of Marth's attacks at all!

...doesn't seem very productive now does it? :/

The point was there are other options at your disposal...it may only work once, but that may be all that you need.



You'd be surprised...

I'm just throwing **** out there...don't mind me. :D

If a smart Ike was fighting a smart Marth, both players wouldbe smart and stay in the same place. OK then.

So I want to know from an Ike main who thinks this is 60-40, what makes them think this is not 65-35?

 

[YagamiLight]

I don't believe the reasons given are enough to justify a move from a "Slight disadvantage" category to a "Disadvantage" category, but you can do whatever you wish, so if you'd like to put it as 65-35 on the Marth boards, go right ahead.

 

[Emblem Lord]

So basically...you posted something, but didn't actually say anything.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

I was wondering why the Ike mains think this is 60-40, and asking them to prexent their reasoning in a format like this

Marth's advantages:
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-
-
-
-

Ike's advantages:
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

Why Ike's advantages put Ike only slightly behind Marth in this matchup:
-
-
-
-

 

[Kirk]

If a smart Ike was fighting a smart Marth, both players wouldbe smart and stay in the same place. OK then.

So I want to know from an Ike main who thinks this is 60-40, what makes them think this is not 65-35?

Underestimation, in short.

--Ike has the power to back up his hits...a well placed FSmash or Eruption can turn the tide VERY quickly.

--Some people SEVERELY underestimate the effectiveness of his jabs...they are freaking godly.

--Fair beats out anything an aggressive Marth can throw at you.

These are just a few points...

Everyone here knows Marth has the advantage, for basically all the reasons already stated...which I agree with. Ike has a few tricks that can enable him to put up a better fight.

65-35 and 60-40 isn't that much of a difference to begin with anyway lol xD

 

[AndrewCarlson]

If a smart Ike was fighting a smart Marth, both players wouldbe smart and stay in the same place. OK then.

So I want to know from an Ike main who thinks this is 60-40, what makes them think this is not 65-35?

Well, the few Ikes that came here did bring up some good points. The Marths just did not agree.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

And I am asking what the Ike mains' points were to lead them to believe this is 60-40


Thank you Kirk for your opinion.

 

[AndrewCarlson]

And I am asking what the Ike mains' points were to lead them to believe this is 60-40

Even if they do provide a series of points, is that really going to make them more credible in the eyes of the Marth mains here? I only see more disagreement over the supposed advantages listed.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I'm just looking at their most effective tools and strats here. When I do that I can't see it as any less then 65/35.

Marth will be in control on the stage and and is better offstage.

If he knocks Ike off then there is a very good chance he will die no matter what percent he is at.

Ike has very very limited attack options. Most of anything he can throw out Marth can either beat with his own attacks through sheer speed or he can block and punish. Overall Marth is a better punisher.

What keeps it from being worse is the fact that Ike is heavy so he can take a hit and that he can punish mistakes well thanks to his raw power and knockback. If Marth screws up and he is around 100% he will probably die.

 

[YagamiLight]

And I am asking what the Ike mains' points were to lead them to believe this is 60-40

I'll basically re-iterate what Kirk said, and I guess add some more.

-Marth is outranged by Ike.

-Ike's jabs can be Dolphin Slashed through, but this can leave Marth very open.

-Ike's power, being the best in the game, is enough to turn the match very fast, especially on a light character like Marth.

-Marth's counter gimp is nullified by a reverse Aether.

-Ike can stop most aerial approaches with a Forward Air.

-Ike can edgeguard Marth well enough with Eruption.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

OK with reverse Aether, to could jump off=>Counter=>knock Ike under the stage=>Ike dies=>Marth laughs maniacally

 

[Steel]

I'll basically re-iterate what Kirk said, and I guess add some more.

-Marth is outranged by Ike.
We are slightly outranged, sure. But by attacks that come out SUPER slow. Marth is too fast of an attacker to get hit by these unless he is getting punished.

-Ike's jabs can be Dolphin Slashed through, but this can leave Marth very open.
Why would marth be getting hit by a jab anyway?


-Ike's power, being the best in the game, is enough to turn the match very fast, especially on a light character like Marth.
Sure. Ike can punish well. Ike is heavy. What else can Ike do?

-Marth's counter gimp is nullified by a reverse Aether.
Yeah, Marth could just grab the ledge though if Ike is opting to grab it. But Ike more often than not won't even get close enough to Aether imo. Marth just needs to fair him.

-Ike can stop most aerial approaches with a Forward Air.
He isn't fast enough to do so on reaction. If Marth is grounded and you approach with it you are screwed. If you are trying to stay safe with it, either nothing will happen or you will get DB'd.

-Ike can edgeguard Marth well enough with Eruption.

Hardly.

i r bolded

 

[Shaya]

Okay Boys:

Marth has a superior recovery, Ike does not have the tools to gimp Marth on a consistant basis.
Ike can not chase Marth off the ledge without putting themselves in severe danger.
Ike has a reasonably bad recovery, for once he is off the edge he is extremely easy to kill -> Marth can gimp Ike extremely easily, quick draw with an edge hog and aether (up b?) with counter / interception (very easy and too effective).
Even if Ike does recover Ike on an edge is at a severe disadvantage, especially with Marth's ability to pressure him off the ledge with his tools (Ike's slow air movement and Marth's ground get up 'counters' [up b, etc] make it hard for Ike to even get back on the stage).

Marth has the advantage on most of Brawl's levels, especially those in tournament play. The above points apply to all the 'neutral stages', and it only gets worse for Ike on nearly every other stage.

Onto the ground however Marth dominates with everything but sheer power. Faster attacks everywhere and a 'tip' that can accomodate most of the power difference...
Dancing Blade ruins many of Ike's approaches.
Ike's defenses (mostly jab) are out ranged by well spaced approaches Marth uses.

Like hell, -we- say Fox is 65:35, I think Ike has it harder.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Eruption isn't reliable. It's a guessing game as to when Marth will initiate the up b.

Ike's range is somewhat nullified by his slowness. What moves is Ike relying on to zone with? F-tilt? Too slow. Fair? Better but mostly as a retreating move. Attacking with it is asking to be countered or blocked and punished.

Ike can't fair Marth out of an approach on reaction. He has to start fairing before hand and hope to hit Marth. His fair isn't fast enough to do a SH fair to stuff Marth just by looking at what Marth is doing. So his zoning isn't that great.

The counter gimp is just one tool. Hell Marth could simply run off with a FF fair then up b. If the fair hits then Ike is most likely done. If he activated the up b then Marth will go through Ike while Ike is in super armor frames and grab the ledge. Ike will plummet to his doom. It's a very easy edgeguard to do. Marth can also choose to f-smash Ike or d-tilt him if he reverse Aethers. Marth has alot of reliable edgeguarding options.

This is what it comes down to.

Marth has plenty of options. Ike does not. What keeps Ike in the fight is his raw traits. His power and his weight. That's really it.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

On some stages if Ike is under the ledge you can run off edge=>Bair under the stage (Mainly Smashville)=>Ike dies=>Marth laughs maniacally

 

[YagamiLight]

We are slightly outranged, sure. But by attacks that come out SUPER slow. Marth is too fast of an attacker to get hit by these unless he is getting punished.
They aren't that slow, especially the neutral air. You can't expect not to be hit.

Why would marth be getting hit by a jab anyway?
Because Marth came close, Ike powershielded and Ike used his very fast jab?

Sure. Ike can punish well. Ike is heavy. What else can Ike do?
He survives for a long time and he kills the enemy early, is there something wrong with that?

Yeah, Marth could just grab the ledge though if Ike is opting to grab it. But Ike more often than not won't even get close enough to Aether imo. Marth just needs to fair him.
The Fair can gimp Ike, but Ike can avoid the gimp by going low and Aethering.

He isn't fast enough to do so on reaction. If Marth is grounded and you approach with it you are screwed. If you are trying to stay safe with it, either nothing will happen or you will get DB'd.
Ike can easily bait and then do a retreating Forward Air. Remember that it also has a IASA frames at the end.

Hardly.
It makes for a fine enough edgeguard, considering it has a 5 second charge time.

 

[AndrewCarlson]

Ike's jab is his fastest attack if I remember correctly; comes out on frame 3 and is very hard to escape. There's Dolphin Slash but as mentioned, that can leave Marth very open to an even stronger attack.

 

[Steel]

We are slightly outranged, sure. But by attacks that come out SUPER slow. Marth is too fast of an attacker to get hit by these unless he is getting punished.
They aren't that slow, especially the neutral air. You can't expect not to be hit.
When you are being zoned the SH nair will take too long.
Why would marth be getting hit by a jab anyway?
Because Marth came close, Ike powershielded and Ike used his very fast jab?
What i'm saying is if marth keeps spacing he won't even have to worry about the jab. Obviously he will get hit by it sometimes, but he can up b out. Ike would have to predict this and shield if he KNOWS marth will do it.
Sure. Ike can punish well. Ike is heavy. What else can Ike do?
He survives for a long time and he kills the enemy early, is there something wrong with that?
No, but that's about all he can do.
Yeah, Marth could just grab the ledge though if Ike is opting to grab it. But Ike more often than not won't even get close enough to Aether imo. Marth just needs to fair him.
The Fair can gimp Ike, but Ike can avoid the gimp by going low and Aethering.
The way I'm picturing this would be Marth and Ike up b'ng back up at the same time. Marth's being much faster would in turn gimp Ikes.
He isn't fast enough to do so on reaction. If Marth is grounded and you approach with it you are screwed. If you are trying to stay safe with it, either nothing will happen or you will get DB'd.
Ike can easily bait and then do a retreating Forward Air. Remember that it also has a IASA frames at the end.
How are you going to "easily bait?" If marth just dashes to shield your forward air is easily punished.
Hardly.
It makes for a fine enough edgeguard, considering it has a 5 second charge time.
But you need to let it go on the precise frame, it's just a very hard thing to land and Marth can mix up the timing.

10characters

 

[Kirk]

Lol it's the same on every board...

Ike is too slow...therefore he can't do ****.

Marth won't get hit by Ike's jab? WTF are you smoking? o.O

 

[Emblem Lord]

No. Ike can do ****. Just not as much **** as Marth.

Of course Marth will get jabbed.

That falls under "Marth will get punished"

Stop being ridiculous, as I actually do respect you.