Marth 1.1.0 Patch Changes

[Oblivion129]

Isn't the Side-b buff a really good thing? If your opponent is in shield, you can delay the next hit a little longer, making it harder for your opponent to know if it's safe to drop shield yet.

 

[Trunks159]

Isn't the Side-b buff a really good thing? If your opponent is in shield, you can delay the next hit a little longer, making it harder for your opponent to know if it's safe to drop shield yet.

If you side b their shield, they can just roll behind you and because of the added 5 frames, its harder to punish.

 

[Freelance Spy]

Isn't the Side-b buff a really good thing? If your opponent is in shield, you can delay the next hit a little longer, making it harder for your opponent to know if it's safe to drop shield yet.

It's a mixed bag. Personally I feel it is a straight up nerf due to not being able to use first hit DB into dolphin slash. That and shieldbreaker mindgames and mixups are gone.

 

[CommanderRin]

So DB1>Nair1 isn't as consistent?

Eh... That's not fun :S

If that's true I hope the changes are reverted next balance patch

 

[Oblivion129]

Edit: It doesn't add 5 frames to the move, just the input. The timing of DB to SB/DS is different but is probably a buff in general.

 

[A_Kae]

I'm messing with utilt right now, and so far, everything I'm seeing supports the idea that buffered stuff won't move you backwards, and waiting a few frames, (to about where the ending frame was in 1.0.8) does.

Still in the process of testing, that's just preliminary findings.

Aerial DB1 as far as I can tell has +5 input window things as well. Might also have more ending lag.

Edit: Also, d-smash, u-smash, and crouch move you back with utilt as well. It's not just jumps and shields.

 

[CommanderRin]

That's true. It screws up things that were common with DB. It could end up being more of a nerf.

That's unfortunate, but it wasn't essential to the game-plan so it won't be too bad imo

 

[A_Kae]

F-tilt > shield/the other stuff moves you backwards like utilt does. That's probably super old (1.0.6) but I just noticed this. It's not as much as utilt, but it's there.

Edit: This also applies to Lucina.

 

[SilverForUbers]

Does anyone want to have a few matches? Want to see some knowledge I can gain about some new ways to use buffs if you guys have found any.

 

[Vipermoon]

If you side b their shield, they can just roll behind you and because of the added 5 frames, its harder to punish.

I don't think you understand what happened here. It's not 5 frames more end lag on each hit. That is all the same. It's 5 frames longer to input the next attack (now the last frame you can input is actually right before the end of the move).

It's a mixed bag. Personally I feel it is a straight up nerf due to not being able to use first hit DB into dolphin slash. That and shieldbreaker mindgames and mixups are gone.

You can still do those things you just have to be precise in when you press those buttons. No buffering. Act like it's Melee.


EDIT: Basically Dancing Blade is a little bit more like Easy Blade in inputs (except you still can't spam the B button like you can with EB).

 

[Freelance Spy]

I just hit someone behind me with DB up. I've never seen this before and I've foolishly tried more than a few times. Could be nothing new but damn am I going to use this knowledge at some point.

Third hit.

snip

I know, its just harder to do things. Gotta practice.

 

[CURRY]

On a different note, I am LOVING this DS landing lag buff. This is the power of three frames??? I feel like I can use DS so recklessly with no problem, oh my god. Landing takes SO little recovery.

 

[Langston777]

disappointed.

i dont think these few frames are going to change much. the shield grabs will still be real, marth's hitboxes will still be ****, and dancing blade is a now a weaker mix up tool.

 

[A_Kae]

disappointed.

i dont think these few frames are going to change much. the shield grabs will still be real, marth's hitboxes will still be ****, and dancing blade is a now a weaker mix up tool.

How is DB a weaker move? All that's changed is you have more 5 more frames to input the next strike.

 

[Langston777]

doesn't that mean they tacked on 5 frames to the endlag?

 

[Moydow]

doesn't that mean they tacked on 5 frames to the endlag?

No, endlag is the same as before

 

[drogoth232]

doesn't that mean they tacked on 5 frames to the endlag?

Nope, there's just 5 more frames than before before you can't input another dancing blade action
Unless they edited the animation to be 5 frames longer, which there is no way to check if we only use Mastercore.
That's why there's ingame testing.

 

[A_Kae]

doesn't that mean they tacked on 5 frames to the endlag?

No. All that's increased is the window for inputing the next hit. Ending lag is unchanged.

 

[Langston777]

oh

myb

still think marth needed some more though

 

[KillLock]

disappointed.

i dont think these few frames are going to change much. the shield grabs will still be real, marth's hitboxes will still be ****, and dancing blade is a now a weaker mix up tool.

The few frames make a difference. There's plenty of ways to avoid shield grabs like spacing and mixing up how you land. Marth's hitboxes are solid. Dancing blade now has an easier combination window.

You can wait around for a patch that will make Marth everything you dreamed of or you could just get better, it's your choice.

 

[Vipermoon]

On a different note, I am LOVING this DS landing lag buff. This is the power of three frames??? I feel like I can use DS so recklessly with no problem, oh my god. Landing takes SO little recovery.

Make sure to hold down before or as soon as Marth reaches the apex of DS. He'll stall less and fall down faster (and after that you can fast fall to save even more time).

 

[Langston777]

thank you for stating the obvious, you sound pretentious af

meanwhile... robin gets a hoohah that combos us at almost all %s. 16 frames of lag is still pretty significant, even compared to 18. i didn't notice anything groundbreaking coming out when i was messing around in training.

marth doesn't need landing lag buffs... unless they're significant enough to let him string together attacks better. i don't think these 2 frames on fair are helping with that. i'd rather see fair get 2 frames off it's endlag so you can pop out a uair before you hit the ground on sh fair.

 

[havac]

Buff/nerf for DB?
Sure, DB -> SB is harder, but aerial rising DB -> DS, which is actually used for recovering? D:<
All it takes is a slight adjustment, so it's ok. It looks like Marth starts to fall a LITTLE before DS now, but it's very minimal.

DB feels SO close to what it was in Brawl now (I'm ashamed to say this, but I occasionally didn't all hits because of the tighter window). Now all we need is the insane IASA from Brawl, hah.

Nair still feels like it has less lag than uair, but if we line up http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Marth and the "16 -> 14" frames for uair from this thread, that doesn't seems right. Are we really sure on this? We have an accuracy on this data of within 1 frame or something, right?
Or maaaybe it's just me.

Awe man that sounds bad. That slight hover helps to throw off opponents.

 

[fox67890]

Yeah, just to clarify, the move dancing blade itself is unaffected. The only thing they changed is made it easier to do (as in, actually inputting the move). For instance, before this patch, if you just mashed side B four times, chances are, you wouldn't get all four hit of DB to come out (I think you'd usually stop after the second hit). Now... you kinda can mash it. You can't like super turbo input side B four times and expect it to work, but you can still press it really quickly and it'll work.

Now that's not to say you should be mashing it anyway. Inputting the dancing blade with the timing we have always been doing seems to be the best way (in terms of successfully getting all four hits out and the move comboing well), but now there is more leniency.

The only thing this realistically changes is the timing to input another special move (which are Marth's dancing blade, dolphin slash, and counter) if you plan to stop dancing blade midway. Generally speaking, I don't think Marth's usually inputted any of these options after a canceled dancing blade (with the exception of aerial DB>DS for recovery), but If you want to, you still can. The timing is just a bit different/slightly more strict.

The timings for things like aerial DB> 1st nair or upair are still the same since inputting an "attack" input rather than a "special" input after aerial DB1 does not lead into the second hit of DB (unlike inputting Up+B for dolphin slash, or Down+B for counter). You'll just get whatever aerial you inputted.

So regarding dancing blade, nothing has really changed overall. The timings for some things are just a bit different.

 

[Solutionme]

DB is pretty much a mixed bag, might even be close to a nerf actually. The only use I see in the added effects is mindgames on the ledge. Stalling with it when the enemy is on the ledge for their invincibility to run out and just cover their options. Offstage is actually worse because you can only dolphin slash after an extra 5 frames due to the input required for it, and the lack of DB mix-ups from a full hop or short hop are kind of destroyed. Yeah this is more of a nerf but the rest of the buffs are unbelievably important. U-air getting less lag along with u-tilt getting another reduction in end lag means anyone who is above us and is shielding is probably gonna lose after enough conditioning.

I guess the only things left really are reverting DB back to pre-patch status, fixing the hitbox on his dolphin slash and reducing his fair 2 frames more? Fair still feels somewhat useless in comparison to nair and uair with nair just ending earlier, having an extra hitbox and dealing more damage, and uair actually being able to combo, which with the dair ending lag reduction means we're gonna probably see some nasty mix-ups at low percents.

Side Note: Yeah the DB change is more of a nerf, harder for me to recover offstage and use it as a gimp move to transcend recoveries with good hitboxes. The only good thing about it seems to be mindgames near the ledge using certain DB variants to cover options.

 

[drogoth232]

I don't get why a lot of people are saying that DB won't allow people to use DS and that it's a nerf.

Unless the Allow Interrupt frame (aka IASA frame for competitive people) was changed so it's 5 frames later, you'll be able to do the same thing as before. I didn't see anything akin to that being changed, so I don't think that's the case. Mastercore also can't dump animation data afaik, so we dont' know if 5 frames were added to the end of DB (I doubt that's the case).

You just can't start spamming it 5 frames earlier than usual, that's all.

Also, DB's never been a good stall option imo. Unless you get it at the apex of your jump you won't get any lift, unless you wavebounce you won't get any horizontal velocity, and it barely stalls when you're falling down. Just my $0.02

 

[CURRY]

Well, the input thing is 5 frames later for the first hit, at least. It IS slightly harder to not accidentally up DB2, but yeah, it barely matters. The difference is minimal for recovery.
The real concern for some people is the frames lost on DB -> SB, which I never really used as a mixup anyway. :/
DB4 down version is the real stuff, lol. Shieldpoke/shield pressure mixup is so good.
I've only broke shields with DB4 down version like, two times ever though. :|
lol, I should be using it less.

 

[Moydow]

Rolls and spot dodges were universally nerfed.
Marth now becomes vulnerable on frame 18 of a spot dodge (formerly 19), and on frame 19 of a forward or back roll (formerly 20).

 

[drogoth232]

Rolls and spot dodges were universally nerfed.
Marth now becomes vulnerable on frame 18 of a spot dodge (formerly 19), and on frame 19 of a forward or back roll (formerly 20).

That's interesting. I wonder how they did it instead of changing the coding in the dodge subaction, especially considering it was a universal nerf

 

[Solutionme]

I don't get why a lot of people are saying that DB won't allow people to use DS and that it's a nerf.

Unless the Allow Interrupt frame (aka IASA frame for competitive people) was changed so it's 5 frames later, you'll be able to do the same thing as before. I didn't see anything akin to that being changed, so I don't think that's the case. Mastercore also can't dump animation data afaik, so we dont' know if 5 frames were added to the end of DB (I doubt that's the case).

You just can't start spamming it 5 frames earlier than usual, that's all.

Also, DB's never been a good stall option imo. Unless you get it at the apex of your jump you won't get any lift, unless you wavebounce you won't get any horizontal velocity, and it barely stalls when you're falling down. Just my $0.02

I might be exaggerating it honestly, but it is a bigger window to mess up off-stage. Might be better for trapping in the strings offstage, but it doesn't feel any different to me. As I stated the only true buff I see from it is a better on-stage while covering the ledge option due to the leniency it has.

Rolls and spot dodges were universally nerfed.
Marth now becomes vulnerable on frame 18 of a spot dodge (formerly 19), and on frame 19 of a forward or back roll (formerly 20).

Sounds good, but it doesn't seem to eliminate rolling as a sort of traveling option and resetting option if used in awkward situations.

 

[Moydow]

That's interesting. I wonder how they did it instead of changing the coding in the dodge subaction, especially considering it was a universal nerf

It's in every diff file here: http://opensa.dantarion.com/s4/raw/param-diff-128-144/
So I suppose that means they went through and changed it for each character one by one?

 

[Solutionme]

It's in every diff file here: http://opensa.dantarion.com/s4/raw/param-diff-128-144/
So I suppose that means they went through and changed it for each character one by one?

If that is the case then I applaud Sakurai and his team for doing something like that since it makes defensive options as a whole for certain characters. This could mean Sheik has a weaker roll than pre-patch?

 

[drogoth232]

It's in every diff file here: http://opensa.dantarion.com/s4/raw/param-diff-128-144/
So I suppose that means they went through and changed it for each character one by one?

Oh, it's up! Thanks for that.

Yeah, at least in brawl there was an attributes section. I'm assuming that's what these values are.

A lot of values there for someone like Robin with what I can guess is reduction on how long some animations last, but Marth just has those 3 values changed, like you mentioned.

 

[A_Kae]

So, looking at the file for Marth (http://opensa.dantarion.com/s4/raw/param-diff-128-144/fighter_param_vl_marth.bin.txt), I see a lot of stuff got changed from 42 to 40. What exactly are those for?

 

[Moydow]

So, looking at the file for Marth (http://opensa.dantarion.com/s4/raw/param-diff-128-144/fighter_param_vl_marth.bin.txt), I see a lot of stuff got changed from 42 to 40. What exactly are those for?

I think they apply to Dancing Blade, but what they changed about it I'm not sure

 

[Vipermoon]

So, looking at the file for Marth (http://opensa.dantarion.com/s4/raw/param-diff-128-144/fighter_param_vl_marth.bin.txt), I see a lot of stuff got changed from 42 to 40. What exactly are those for?

+1. What is this stuff?

I get the spot dodge and 2 rolls but the 40 to 37, many 42 to 40s, 22.0 to 19.0, 36.0 to 33.0, and 42.0 to 39.0 is beyond me.

 

[drogoth232]

I think they apply to Dancing Blade, but what they changed about it I'm not sure

I'd guess it's a reduction to how long it lasts, similar to how the rolls were edited. It could also be his other specials too. It could even be something basic as base damage, charge up time, aerial momentum, horizontal movement. Anything really.

The biggest mystery is the values at the bottom. I really want to know what those are. My only guess is an attribute like weight or speed or fallspeed.

 

[A_Kae]

+1. What is this stuff?

I get the spot dodge and 2 rolls but the 40 to 37, many 42 to 40s, 22.0 to 19.0, 36.0 to 33.0, and 42.0 to 39.0 is beyond me.

I'm looking at it right now. This is what I've got so far.

04b=Spotdodge
04c=Roll (Forwards?)
04d= Roll (Backwards?)
05c=Utilt
219=Shield Breaker
21a=Storm Thrust?
21b=Dashing Assault

 

[Vipermoon]

Actually I figured out the 40 to 37. That's IASA for Utilt. If you go to Utilt (AttackHi3) in the raw data it says 05C.

Edit: Lol A_Kae I guess you understand it

@ A_Kae DUUUHHHH. The last 3 are the landing lags for all 3 up specials (for some reason they are consistently 1 frame less than actual)

 

[fox67890]

If rolling as a whole got nerfed, I think that seriously helps marth out. That's actually really good news imo. I'll keep observing until things become clear though.