Meta Jigglypuff Competitive and Metagame Discussion

[ZHMT]

I got 9th out of 51 with Puff only at a central Florida tournament recently. Also got 3rd in teams, barely lost in losers finals <<. I was the only Puff main there, Hungrybox didn't show up and the only other player that plays Puff lives in Miami.

I lost to 2nd twice, Ryo's Ike. I don't know the matchup too well and don't know if I was just outplayed or its hard for Puff. It was so hard to gimp him because side b sends Ike so far and fast and his up b/aether has super armor. How does Jiggs combat Aether? I know it should be vunerable at some point. Also you really can't afford to have any habits shown vs a good Ike with Puff. Ryo was able to punish me with moves like fsmash or dsmash because he just knew where I was going to go.

It is of great importance to mixup approaches vs heavy punishing characters and ones with good antiair disjoints like Marth/Lucina. Be patient and be unpredictable or Jiggs will get wrecked vs characters like this. It was my first opponent that really exploited it hard and made me learn what I need to fix about my play. Also Ikes dthrow (I think its his dthrow) kills Puff pretty early when Ike is raged some.

In other news, I did great vs most of my other opponents with rests lulz. Puff in teams imo is a top 3 character. I was getting discouraged about Puff and thought she was just ok in this game and sitting in the middle somewhere but after some practice on fixing habits I realized this character is really stupid good and I think is top 10 again.

Its really easy to net grabs in this game especially with Puff because of how safe people feel in their shield when she's in the air. You have to shield about 4 frames minimum longer in this game so not attacking shields in this is better than it is in Brawl. Shorthop fast fall and grab, staple Jiggs mixup. Plus her grab damage output is great, she has some of the best pummel dps in the game, a frame 6 grab which a lot of characters have frame 7s. Also her throws all do 10% so were talking 13.1-16% per throw.

Weak fair to rest is probably Jiggs best rest setup since its an actual combo and easy to hit confirm due to hitlag and stuff. It works at kill percent and works at high percents as well. Fair to weak fair to rest is a real thing, I've done it to people in tournament who still have Brawl air dodge habits and it combos, although a bit hard to do properly, its great reward for little risk.

That's enough typing for now, umm, if you have a partner that has great synergy with Puff and saves you when you rest people, she's amaaazinggg. That is all, =)

 

[drakeirving]

I don't know the matchup too well and don't know if I was just outplayed or its hard for Puff. It was so hard to gimp him because side b sends Ike so far and fast and his up b/aether has super armor. How does Jiggs combat Aether? I know it should be vunerable at some point.

I haven't been able to try yet for lack of Ikes, but after a bit of thought I think it depends. A high-recovering Ike is going to be using sideB, while a low-recovering Ike has to use Aether. SideB trumps Jiggs and although getting hit stops him, he can then probably recover low anyways unless you really got him early into sideB. A low Aether will wreck you if you try to go down to get him.

I think one course of action for recovering low is to go out further than Ike. He is forced to use Aether to get back on the ledge, but he doesn't grab the ledge until descent. This means you can either go down (if possible) and bair him in the back (into the stage), or float out until he uses Aether and then bair him at his peak. This might be easier to do since it's easier to anticipate the recovery, get into position and not get hit, but wouldn't strictly be a gimp.

Recovering high still seems problematic, but one approach could just be to hit him with an upair. Unfortunately this seems very risky in itself because his dair spike is a threat, so you'd have to make sure he's trying to recover. Meanwhile, I think upair should also work if he's in the middle of a sideB and you space well.

Also you really can't afford to have any habits shown vs a good Ike with Puff. Ryo was able to punish me with moves like fsmash or dsmash because he just knew where I was going to go.

Definitely agree. Ike is a character that doesn't often have to use much movement to do what he wants to do, and can concentrate a lot on punish game while just playing keepaway until you mess up. Unlike some other slow characters he can pick off Jiggs fairly easily whether in the air, behind him, if you slack a bit on chaining hits, etc.

Its really easy to net grabs in this game especially with Puff because of how safe people feel in their shield when she's in the air. You have to shield about 4 frames minimum longer in this game so not attacking shields in this is better than it is in Brawl. Shorthop fast fall and grab, staple Jiggs mixup.

I really need to pick up on this; unsafe shield hits and not grabbing enough is a major hole in my play right now. I have some trouble with her grab range too (esp. dash grab) since I always think it should reach further than it really does, and I stop just short.

 

[Jiggly]

Ike always seems to be a problem for puff... I have to go to little Mac for him usually, as its one of the few things that can check his playstyle.

Ike sux

 

[Desu~]

Hey guys, been a while.

I just wanted to say how much I LOVE this new itteration of Puff.
I need to tweak a bit about some stuff im still not used with, but WOW.

I still can't believe how Sing is super useful now! Cancels about almost every lunging attacks in the game. Also dat range!
Has any of you been using Sing for a while now?

Also, I might go to a tourney that's going on this week. It's nothing big, really. Any tippers though?

 

[Jiggly]

Hey guys, been a while.

I just wanted to say how much I LOVE this new itteration of Puff.
I need to tweak a bit about some stuff im still not used with, but WOW.

I still can't believe how Sing is super useful now! Cancels about almost every lunging attacks in the game. Also dat range!
Has any of you been using Sing for a while now?

Also, I might go to a tourney that's going on this week. It's nothing big, really. Any tippers though?

I've been using sing lately, if they are at rest kill percent, it will last until the end of the song. It's a great move for punishing rolls.

I have no idea about tips for a tournament, as I'm never in any xD

 

[Coonce]

As both an Ike and Puff player, the new Ike buffs are really effective against Puff. The auto-cancelable and faster fair now gives him extra range which makes it difficult for Puff to get in. And just the fact that all of his aerials have range and can kill makes him super dangerous to Puff. His jabs are great if you just want to get back to neutral, his nair hits behind him which I often catch people off guard with a decending, cross-up, fastfall nair. His down tilt is extremely good but most likely Puff will never be hit by it, so that's good.

As for edge guarding a side B, there's one funny thing that is super dangerous but can instantly kill Ike if he's charging off stage... If you can position yourself just below/above him off-stage, when he let's go of his side B he'll stop right at you, whiff, and be in free fall. But under normal circumstances I'd recommend trying to just carry him off with fairs and nairs. But sometimes it's not unreasonable to eat his side B to stop his horizontal recovery, as most often they will spend their double jump before the side B.

And I don't know if it's worth the trouble trying to edge guard an aether. That thing can spike you if you're not careful.

Overall it's a tough matchup now but I'd say defensive play is the best solution. If you get him approach, it'll make your life a lot easier.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

If you know he's gonna Aether, you can jump past the ledge and N-Air/B-Air/Forward-B/Down-B him as he goes up to catch the sword. Ike cannot grab the ledge if he uses his Up-B backward, so you don't have to fear him trying to gimp you with it.

 

[drakeirving]

I think one course of action for recovering low is to go out further than Ike. He is forced to use Aether to get back on the ledge, but he doesn't grab the ledge until descent. This means you can either go down (if possible) and bair him in the back (into the stage), or float out until he uses Aether and then bair him at his peak. This might be easier to do since it's easier to anticipate the recovery, get into position and not get hit, but wouldn't strictly be a gimp.

yup

 

[True Blue Warrior]

If you know he's gonna Aether, you can jump past the ledge and N-Air/B-Air/Forward-B/Down-B him as he goes up to catch the sword. Ike cannot grab the ledge if he uses his Up-B backward, so you don't have to fear him trying to gimp you with it.

Thanks for the advice.

 

[cavefishx]

Spam fair and hit b when at kill percent. Jigglypuff OP.

 

[CaptainChoC]

I just played against a good Mario with my jiggly and i couldnt do a thing against him.
He was throwing fireballs, then fleeing, upsmashing, throwing fireballs, then fleeing, upsmashing... and i coulnt do anything.
Do you have any troubles with this matchup ?....

I could beat him with my other characters but i couldnt with jiggly

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I had a rude awakening against the character a couple weeks ago. His great horizontal aerial mobility and fast aerials help him trade with our pokes, which is definitely bad for us. U-Smash is super-safe on his part, and it worked wonders against me when I played this fellow. I won because I outsmarted him in general, but it did not feel good at all.

You can N-Air/F-Air/Jab/F-Tilt through fireballs, and you can crouch under the front portion of a U-Smash (found that out recently). Not really sure how to actually approach the character yet since I haven't played one since then, but at least that should help alleviate some of your issues. I think this is a matchup where we don't want to fullhop much; shorthop aerials while trying to get him above us seems like the best bet at first glance.

 

[SyncNatsyu]

what 'bout their down b(or in mario's case his....Dair?...its when they spin....)

I can't tell if its safe or not and if it isn't I can't tell when it isn't safe. Since most of our attacks are more or less not dis-jointed(barring our upsmash). Its hard for me to punish it as it finishes 'cause that last hitbox is huge and they don't seem to have much recovery from using such distinct move(this means they can act out of it with say Nair, if I try approaching). This is even more difficult with luigi who seems to fly unbound by gravity during and after it.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

The Down-B of Doc and Luigi are pretty disjointed, in such a way that unless you have a U-Tilt or U-Air ready in advance, you're really better off just shielding or moving away. They both end in an exaggerated "arms up" pose, so that's your cue to jump out of shield and punish.

Mario's is trickier, since the cooldown is much shorter, his aerial mobility is better, and it has a landing hitbox, as well. Try to get him after he lands for that reason.

 

[The Twinkie]

It's hard for me to get in on marth and lucinas. The sword outranges our aerials and they can zone us out pretty easily.

 

[drakeirving]

Their horizontal aerial mobility is worse than yours; take advantage of that. There's often an opportunity to space something they throw out and zoom in for a hit. You do have to be wary that you aren't just rushing in constantly trying to attack, but that's just what you should be doing in general. Low-level players often use laggy moves without thinking (smashes, Shield Breaker) and can be baited into Counters. Marth and Lucina can also be gimped with relative ease because of their weight and limited recovery options.

Maybe it's just that I haven't found the right players but honestly the matchup seems pretty good to me.

 

[SyncNatsyu]

oh hey @ drakeirving did you ever finish the Uptilt kill percents? If you did I can't find them.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

People like using Shield Breaker; you can crouch under it and Rest, grab, or D-Air their arm.

 

[The Twinkie]

People like using Shield Breaker; you can crouch under it and Rest their arm.

Yeah since a broken sheild is a KO to puff they use it a lot

 

[Pazx]

With this stage list, what are our best 3 starters, best 3 counterpicks and worst 3 counterpicks? I'm thinking I strike FD and SV, CP to BF, KJ64 or Halberd and ban... Town and City and FD? While I know this is all matchup-specific this is what I'd have in mind in general, and particularly against Rosalina (who I plan on using Jiggs against, otherwise she's just a secondary for me).

Spoiler

Stagelist:

Starter

-Battlefield
-Duck Hunt
-Lylat Cruise
-Smashville
-Final Destination/Omega Palutena's Temple (specifically)

Counterpick

-Castle Siege
-Delfino Plaza
-Halberd
-Kongo Jungle 64
-Pilot Wings
-Skyloft
-Town and City

 

[Desu~]

I have to say that Im slightly irritated/salty about some of the new mechanics in the game. The rolls in this are too strong. There's, like, no lag whatsoever and easy to spam.

I mean, sure, Im not good at this game at all anyways. But Jesus, it's like this game just wants to tell you that it's a game about grabs or something.

 

[Desu~]

Double post cuz different subject.

So I got 3rd in a small tournament of about 18 people. Lost against a ROB player.
If I were to say something about ROB, I'd say that aerial battles were pretty much tied while taking account of his high launching properties; Jiggs nair and fair were able to cancel ROB's nair from time to time.
Don't get caught in his side B. This thing can shield poke you.
Otherwise anyone that is better than me knows that shielding/Pshielding is the best way to approach ROB while he throws his projectiles at you.
Makes me think, does anyone remember if Awestin won against that ROB player?
If so, I need to get some tips if there's any.

 

[ZHMT]

I don't know much about the rob matchup unfortunately. It seems like its our favor though on paper, mainly because he's a big target for rest and not heavy vs his size. Also his projectiles can mostly be crouched under and his grab/ftilt not angled/fsmash etc as well.

In other news everyone needs to jump out of shield and buffer back airs to punish out of shield when they are spaced away from rest range. Jumping takes 6 frames, you're airborne on frame 7 and bair hits frame 12. This means frame 19 after your shield is hit you'll be backairing them. Its stronger than her fsmash remember? Its also faster since fsmash requires you to drop shield first (7 frames).

Usmash out of shield is also good in this game although not as good as Melees since usmash is soo much faster in that game. Usmash hits frame 16 and ignores shield drop since you can jump cancel oos the up smash. Basic? Yes it is. But I don't see people doing it and its very good. I would mainly do it if they are behind you though since the late hits of usmash are super weak.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

B-Air won't punish anything that's even remotely safe. It's an unfortunate shortcoming of the character. You're generally better off with N-Air.

 

[ZHMT]

B-Air won't punish anything that's even remotely safe. It's an unfortunate shortcoming of the character. You're generally better off with N-Air.

When should you be using bair? Just retreating it at neutral and edgeguarding? I know you can bair and stay in the air after its cooldown if you input bair early enough, is it better to do that? The 18 frames landing lag is kinda rough vs the characters I play a lot, Falcon, Sonic, Fox.

Nair is a lot faster and still does good damage, it just doesn't really kill directrly without rage bonuses usually. If I remember correctly her dair actually has a really fast startup too, similar to nairs and can potentially do 3% more.

I'm really having issues at neutral mainly. Nair is good and I like crossing up uair on their shield sometimes under 50% just because the risk /reward is so good. I know its not totally safe but most things Ill get punished by don't hit very hard as they have to drop shield to grab me first.

Also thanks for uploading that video on Rest followups, I needed a visual so it helped a lot.

 

[Desu~]

Well nair is crazy good in this game now. Remembered a couple of time I pulled OoS nair. These things saved me.
As for the bair, I get the feeling that anybody smart would consider avoiding it at all cost since it became a big killer move.
Only things that actually made me pull bairs were when I read air dodges and when I gimp people who camped on ledge for too long.

I know it doesn't sound serious, but I also feel that Sing is actually going to be a great arsenal for experienced Puff players in the future. Super serious, this thing is too good now.
We already have two or three videos that features Jiggs cancelling Lil Mac's KO punch and any lunging attacks from a decent number of the cast. But I caught a lot time people's fsmash like Meta Knight, Link and Mario's.
If this comes down to not being the case, then **** me. But right now in this board we've even got a thread that's talking about how useful is sing, because some people probably came to realise the significant buff it got.

Edit: Is there any way to know about frames and hitboxes in this game yet? Because it would be great to know how Sing is really working out in general.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Sing hitboxes last for only four frames on each sound wave. Any moves blocked by this is purely luck-based.

 

[ZHMT]

Sing is awful. It is possible for it to do things most other moves can't do but its not worth attempting. The startup is too high and it only hits 3 times, 4 frames a piece. If it hit people in the air and had a constant hitbox with some intangibility on startup, the move would be great and an effective counter. Unfortunately its always a buff to Puff by switching it to a custom Sing imo.

 

[Desu~]

Sing will always be a buff compared to reflect sing.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Sing will always be a buff compared to reflect sing.

At least Reflect Sing has a real chance to hit people.

 

[Desu~]

Well that's it then.

Reflect sing for next EVO.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

You'll be glad when it gets you the gimp against Falcon and Ness.

 

[LightningLuxray]

Alright two questions.

Firstly, how the hell do you approach characters with large Up Smashes? Specifically, Greninja and Link. I feel like these are the characters I lose to the most with Jiggs because I just don't know how to get in. Usually I try fast fall Nair of Fair but Up Smash just stops that cold ;~; not to mention they have Water Shuriken and Boomerang, respectively, to also **** with my approach. So yeah how do I get in against these characters?

Secondly, I've been trying the fast fall grab strategy you brought up earlier, ZHMT, and I can't seem to pull it off correctly. Either A. they grab me first or B. they roll away before I can get off the grab. Do you have a video, whether it be you or another Jiggs, where the strategy is pulled off correctly? Or any tips as to pulling this off? Because I feel like this is a pretty important strategy and it sucks to not be able to use it against a shielding opponent. :/

Thanks for any and all help in advance.

 

[ZHMT]

Its just a mixup, and its not as effective with Puff as it is with other characters since her fall speed is slow and people have time to react to what you are trying to do. If they are trying to grab you first, you should have time to just hit them with an aerial instead. Its all just conditioning and knowing how long certain players like to shield. Sometimes you can cross them up and grab so they cant shield grab you. If this stuff never works on players you play, it could be because they aren't sitting in their shield too long.

An example here is when peoples shields are low, a pound is unblockable. The thing is that people know this, and if you pound in the air, people have the entire squat animation and Puffs air time to react and release their shield. Its a lot easier to hit pound if its just used on the ground sometimes because there are less visual cues before pound begins.

 

[ElPanandero]

I got 9th out of 51 with Puff only at a central Florida tournament recently. Also got 3rd in teams, barely lost in losers finals <<. I was the only Puff main there, Hungrybox didn't show up and the only other player that plays Puff lives in Miami.

I lost to 2nd twice, Ryo's Ike. I don't know the matchup too well and don't know if I was just outplayed or its hard for Puff. It was so hard to gimp him because side b sends Ike so far and fast and his up b/aether has super armor. How does Jiggs combat Aether? I know it should be vunerable at some point. Also you really can't afford to have any habits shown vs a good Ike with Puff. Ryo was able to punish me with moves like fsmash or dsmash because he just knew where I was going to go.

I play Jiggs in team a lot, and I find empty air approaches/air dodge FF approaches work pretty consistently to get Ike. Also be patient with gimps, if he's within aether range just back up and reset to neutral since it's pretty tough to punish and I think he can follow up with jab combo depending on how he hits/we DI, smart Ike's I've played in singles just side B immediately once sent to avoid any gimp shenanigans. My best apprach to Ike's is to bait the laggy smashes and Rest or bair them on punish. Of course, I've yet to play an Ike who doesn't try to throw them at least a little but so I'm not sure how the matchup goes for smarter Ikes

 

[MaxThunder]

not sure how useful it is, but it seems footstool combos into dair if you fastfall it...

 

[Toxicroaker]

This is fairly off topic, but I just had a jiggly ditto where I was at 0% and wiffed a rest, so he punished with rest, and I survived and punished his rest with my rest and won the game. It. Was. Amazing.

 

[MaxThunder]

i have a replay where i wiff a rest and he punishes it with rest after some wiffing... and i proceed to rest him multiple times until i win=P...
imma make a glory mode rest compilation=P...

 

[Phampy]

So how often do you guys utilize Dair? I don't know if it's remnants of my Melee playstyle or what but I just never use this aerial. However seeing the video by TheReflexWonder and how Dair can setup rest, I figured I should incorporate it into my play.

The problem is though I can never land it that often and I have to consciously tell myself to use it. The times I use it most often though is if I approach and they have their shield up and I try to chip away at the shield or hope they drop their shield for whatever reason mid attack.

 

[Spire-hunter]

So how often do you guys utilize Dair? I don't know if it's remnants of my Melee playstyle or what but I just never use this aerial. However seeing the video by TheReflexWonder and how Dair can setup rest, I figured I should incorporate it into my play.

The problem is though I can never land it that often and I have to consciously tell myself to use it. The times I use it most often though is if I approach and they have their shield up and I try to chip away at the shield or hope they drop their shield for whatever reason mid attack.

Can you link the video? I'd love to see it.