Meta Jigglypuff Competitive and Metagame Discussion

[drakeirving]

Man, if you can condition people to roll instead of shield, your games should be in the bag ;P

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Not if they roll away from you. There's nothing your character can do except gain a slight bit of stage control that way.

 

[Desu~]

Im just sad that pound doesn't have that amazing forward momentum anymore though.
But seriously, if anything, fast characters that does mock charges are the worst.
I've got this friend who's playing super safe with Metaknight. I still manage to figure out his bad habits, but usually he outsmarts me just by using this kind of spacing where he dashes forward and then falls back with a roll.
Im out of initiative here. What to do with those who's got a fast and lengthy backroll?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

The most efficient method is probably to pick a different character, to be honest. Jigglypuff just doesn't move quickly enough to make reliable punishes happen if the opponent decides they don't want to play.

 

[ZHMT]

Yep, however on the brightside, Puff has the ability to "stop playing" the game as well against a lot of characters.

Against Fox, Falcon, Sonics that run away you really just have to be patient and play an anti approach game with nairs and fairs, throw in sh autocancel bairs when they run out of space.

I like trapping people with sh bair a lot when they are close to the ledge. If they shield it, they can't roll behind you without frame advantage in your favor and if you read their jump you can likely ko them with smart offstage play. The smart way to punish roll aways are letting them lose stage control as Reflex said.

Short hop bair autocancelled is safe on regular shield (not powershield). Its about -12 (educated guess) before they drop shield when you're landing. Meaning they can't roll behind you, they can't shield grab since you're too far away, and if they drop shield they have 5 frames to hit you with something and the fastest dash grabs are frame 8, not to even mention any time it takes to get to you. Jumping and moving to you will take over 12 frames as well. Its completely safe if done right and puts on a lot of pressure if they can't roll or jump away.

 

[cFive]

Alright guys, i present to you: airdodge into rest!

I will start with the combo/compilation video i made (this is no self promotion, i swear) since you will see right away what i mean:

Ok ok.. first, how viable is this rly? Everyone can make a combovideo of something if tried enough times.. BUT im telling you airdodge into rest is a real thing! I have participated in tournaments with this and won some rounds against decent players AND there was at least one but mostly 2 rest kills in alot of games.

Again this is no self promotion, but i streamed the last online tournament i played with jiggs and here is the recording to it, if you wanna see how my rest strat looks in real games: (The tourney starts about 50 min after streamstart)
http://www.twitch.tv/beefysmashdoods/b/607012713
(I want to add here that i was a bit unlucky with my opponents, ofc small/thin chars are much harder to rest.. as you see i also failed alot... because im bad :'[ )

So why does this work better in smash4 than in brawl you might ask?
In smash4 the airdodge has interruptable frames.. (for example, if you land after an airdodge you might get the lag from it BUT you could have used a move before landing to deny the lag from the airdodge and instead only have the lag of a very fast aireal...)
This mechanic makes airdodge into rest good because there are only very few frames between the ending of the airdodge and the start of rest! Only in those few frames jiggs is vulnerable!

Also, the airdodge gives you a bit time to see IF and WHAT MOVE your opponent is using. If you airdodge a laggy move its soo easy to react to it and simply press down-b (especially offline.. i really gotta say with just small online delay this gets alot harder!!)

tbh I tried to completelly **** the world with this trick and really put my name under it, but im not so sure anymore if i wanna keep doing this because, well.. its still risky and especially online much harder to pull off..
anyways thats why i decided to share this with you now and ask for your oppinion or tips how i can maybe make this trick even more reliable!

I hoped that this could really bring rest back into the meta
Tell me what you think!

 

[ZHMT]

The reason it can work is because air dodges are basically a parry in this game. The duration of air dodges are way too low. In Brawl air dodges lasted 39 to 49 frames on average and had FAR more vunerable frames.

In ssb4 air dodges last about 30 frames or so, which I'm not a big fan of, but whatever. So if they use an aerial that lasts 40 frames and you air dodge at the same time, you'll have +10 advantage when your dodge ends allowing a Rest guaranteed. Its good for Puff I suppose, but being unbiased its silly.

 

[Klaxon]

On the subject of Pound, even though customs aren't really allowed (right now) in competitive play, which one do you guys prefer?
I have no opinion on the subject because I haven't unlocked them yet

 

[Ieven]

How the sing can be use ? I'd like to use it, but i don't know how, it seems strange, something the sing hit, sometime it doesn't. I know the trick on the edge, but that don't help me a lot ...

 

[TheReflexWonder]

How the sing can be use ? I'd like to use it, but i don't know how, it seems strange, something the sing hit, sometime it doesn't. I know the trick on the edge, but that don't help me a lot ...

For each of the three sound waves, it's active for four frames. That's why the best way to use it is usually to not use it at all.

 

[ZeroJanitor]

Sing is the move you use out of desperation because nothing else is working, then subsequently get punished for.

 

[ZHMT]

Sing isn't even a move guys.

Anyway, utilt to rest works on Diddy and Sheik at kill percent, the rest should be fresh (lols) and its a lot more reliable when Puff is within the 40-70% range for rage and stuff.

Its not difficult to buffer your jump after utilt so its frame perfect and rest them near the top of Puff to maximize the window. Rest is definitely not out of her game at all. Uair obbviously works better. I've been liking retreating wide up airs to cover rolls and its safe if you don't hit their shield on the way back. I wish the autocancel window for it wasn't so late, the 15 frames landing lag can be annoying. Ugh why can't it end frame 28 like fair and bair =(

Rest out of shield is still great, jumping out of shield is about the same speed and gives you better mobility options, but if they just land right on you (which they shouldn't) dropping shield is easier.

Training mode doesn't take into account freshness bonus of moves. It is about 1.05x damage if its completely fresh. Rest does 20% in training, possible decimals aside. In game it does 21% (I used to confuse it for flower damage). Since moves damage is part of the knockback formula, they have more knockback when completely fresh than in training.

Rest on Mario in training no DI = KO at 54%
Rest on Mario ingame no DI = KO at 51%

Its not always a 3% loss, Sheik is 47 in training and about 46 ingame, I think decimals are having an effect there though.

Anyways, ask someone to avoid dying to rest after a utilt using say Sheik. Get them around 25%, utilt and rest. The window is about 11% or so with no rage and 25% with rage.

 

[Desu~]

But you guys just don't understand it.
Sing is in Jigglypuff's moveset.
Sing's input is Up-b.
Up is a direction.
What symbol do we usually use when we want to state a comment above you?
It's ^.
What do we get when we put an underscore on ^?
That's right, we get Δ.
What do we usually see inside triangles?
An eye.
Illuminati confirmed for buffing Jigglypuff's sing.






...I still think sing can have it's use.

 

[Hopy]

Has anyone been able to successfully pull off dair to rest in game? I can pull it off in training but can't seem to set up a good dair in game to do it. If I'm lucky I can get a fair afterwards at best.

 

[drakeirving]

Yes, I've managed to get it a handful of times. Mostly these were games where I wasn't afraid to set up the dair, but I've barely played at all recently so I expect to be fairly consistent with some practice.

 

[Jiggly]

How does Dair to rest work? Do you have to miss the last hit with your land and the spike lag gives you time to rest?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

You move in one direction during the first four or five hits in order to make sure they stay on one side of you (guaranteeing that they get sent in the opposite direction) and hold the other direction during the last few hits.

If you start holding forward late, you won't have enough speed to get it to combo, since it takes a little bit to get to max aerial speed.

 

[Desu~]

So guys I probably got 53rd out of 55 in a tourney. Again.
Lost vs Toon Link. Again.
Can someone tell me if that really is a bad MU for Jiggs. Am I doing stuff wrong.
My video didn't got uploaded for some reason last tournament, so hopefully next vid is gonna be put on from today.
From that I'd like to see from you guys what seemed to be the problem.

Woah never mind I actually got 18th out of 65
This kinda feels amazing.

 

[Ieven]

So why does this work better in smash4 than in brawl you might ask?
In smash4 the airdodge has interruptable frames.. (for example, if you land after an airdodge you might get the lag from it BUT you could have used a move before landing to deny the lag from the airdodge and instead only have the lag of a very fast aireal...)
This mechanic makes airdodge into rest good because there are only very few frames between the ending of the airdodge and the start of rest! Only in those few frames jiggs is vulnerable!

That sounds good ! But in your video, i don't understand why sometime instead of simply move to read an opponent's roll, you airedodge while you move and then rest.

 

[ZHMT]

So guys I probably got 53rd out of 55 in a tourney. Again.
Lost vs Toon Link. Again.
Can someone tell me if that really is a bad MU for Jiggs. Am I doing stuff wrong.
My video didn't got uploaded for some reason last tournament, so hopefully next vid is gonna be put on from today.
From that I'd like to see from you guys what seemed to be the problem.

Woah never mind I actually got 18th out of 65
This kinda feels amazing.

Are you abusing the fact that tether grabs have a bad risk reward ratio? Against Toon Link just shield a bit until he's forced to throw out grabs. Once he starts grabbing more, you have him conditioned and can abuse the high amount of lag on whiff with a rest or bair ko etc.

Also his projectiles seem annoying at first. You can nair through boomerang and arrows and hit him. Bombs you can evade while you approach. Toons out of shield options aren't the best, his defense is bleh once you get in. It just takes practice like anything else and there aren't a lot of Toons.

 

[Hopy]

Are you abusing the fact that tether grabs have a bad risk reward ratio? Against Toon Link just shield a bit until he's forced to throw out grabs. Once he starts grabbing more, you have him conditioned and can abuse the high amount of lag on whiff with a rest or bair ko etc.

Also his projectiles seem annoying at first. You can nair through boomerang and arrows and hit him. Bombs you can evade while you approach. Toons out of shield options aren't the best, his defense is bleh once you get in. It just takes practice like anything else and there aren't a lot of Toons.

Good links generally won't use grab much, especially against jiggs, due to rest punishes. It's not like they need to approach, they're the ones with projectiles.

 

[Desu~]

Problem with toon links are that I feel like they are especially good at running away against Jiggs and litteraly throws a lot of **** against you.
A couple of things that caught me off guard a lot of times were the little to no lag after boomerang and arrows as well as the arrow into grab follow-up.
Thing is, I usually go on and approach TL by PSing his projectiles because I feel like I have no second to waste on him, otherwise I'll give him too much breathing space.
I've been caught by a lot of utilt OoS too.

Also I feel like TL has been the character that drew out most of Jigglypuff's weakness in smash 4. Jiggs just can't seem to chase most characters that are really able to distance themselves completely. And airborne does not seem to be a great place to be in either if characters have exceptionnally good vertical coverage.

 

[Zediwonder]

Toon Link cancels the lag of the boomerang if you start using another move before it comes back to him. But once you get close to him Jiggs has the advantage, Toon links attacks close up come out pretty slow besides his grab and zair but the grab has bad recovery if it whiffs and zair will never KO and doesn't cause much hitstun. Pressuring Toon Link up close is the best way to deal with him, though that is hard and it's also not full proof, good players know how to deal with pressure and will make you work hard for every hit.

 

[Chacrecon]

Does Jigglypuff still lose a stock when it's shield breaks?

Yes, extremley so.

 

[Chacrecon]

Hi guys, I am new to Jiggly, really want to make her my main this time in SSB4 and I wanted a few tips and tricks as a newcomer if possible, like what to learn, what to do, what to avoid, this sort of stuff. Thanks a lot !

First, you MUST acknowledge that puff is best in the air, and utilizing fairs,uairs and bairs are essential (Especially bairs) Also while in the air, air dodge quite a bit so you cant be easily punished due to you're floatiness. Don't rest an opponent until their at 50%-60% damage, otherwise they just won't die. Also don't use sing or rollout (Up and side B) often, stick to pound and smash attacks. Just play some for glory with puff and you'll eventually find the right and effective way to play.

And just so you know, puffs best match up is against little mac.

 

[Jiggly]

I feel like puffs Best MU is against DDD, Mac can super armor through puffs aerials

 

[Hopy]

Mac can "box out" Jiggs and completely stop any approach by trading/armoring through with Smash attacks. That combined with Mac's high mobility and fast roll speed make him impossible to approach. Jiggs does have a much easier time once she lands a hit, but landing a hit can be very difficult. It's definitely not Jiggs' best match up. It might not be the best, but I really like the R&L match up. Ganon is probably the easiest though. Easy to gimp, easy to hit, and he has no approach.

Also, bair is best used for kills, and fair and nair should be used more in neutral. You can't rely on only spaced bairs like in melee, it's a bit slower and has less range.

 

[adom4]

Hi, i've been starting to play more Jigglypuff recently & found her a lot of fun, are there any basic things i need to know about playing puff?

 

[Desu~]

Well guys, I just wanted to say Im heading for that usual weekly tournament going on these days.
There will be a couple of great players there like last time such as Daisyfan, Kels and Tarex as well.
Well I don't expect to go anywhere in this.
But wish me luck I guess.

 

[Nerdicon]

I've been playing puff as a secondary which has been going reasonably well but I always struggle against shorter characters (TLink, Villager, etc). Am I doing something wrong here or are those just bad MUs

 

[ZeroJanitor]

Those are bad matchups but it's not because they're short

Any character with a lot of zoning tools/projectiles (Toon Link, Villager, Mega Man, etc.) gives Jigglypuff a lot of trouble because she lacks any good way of getting in. You really gotta play patient and look for openings to inch your way in.

But if your asking advice specifically for short characters, I'd recommend playing a more reactive style. Since they're small enough to make approaching generally unsafe, make them come to you. Maybe bait them into something punishable.

 

[Jiggly]

Mega man is an easy matchup, fair destroys metal blade, sticky bomb, and lemons. It's easy to pressure him and get in close

 

[Funtroon]

If there were to be an official tier list soon, where would Jiggs place? I feel like she was received positively when the game came out, but she hasn't been played much in any tournament or by any notable players not named Hungrybox.

 

[Jiggly]

I'm hoping B tier, that's what I think she deserves, but I expect her to get C-

 

[ZHMT]

I got back from Paragon earlier this morning and I learned a lot about Puff. I think she is a solid mid tier character. She struggles against a decent amount of the well agreed upon top characters. Diddy, Sonic, Ness, Sheik, ZSS, Rosalina, etc.

I think with a solid balance patch again that either nerfs top charaters or buffs Puff a bit she will be high tier or better.

I ran into a lot of issues at Paragon. The biggest issue is that I only got 2 hours of sleep. Bbut outside of that I ran into some goodplayers that used characters I don't have much practice against at a high level. Diddy is annoying, and we all know this but certain Diddys are very hard to get the KO against onstage. Also the Little Mac matchup is silly. I lost to one and got 3rd in my pool for being stubborn I guess. I had a 30% lead and he had a KO punch. I know the optimal strategy was to fly away for 4 and a half minutes but I didn't do it and ended up losing.

Oh well, there's always next time =)

 

[ilikcereal101]

This isn't about pound but, what do u guys think about her fair is it the bair of smash4?

 

[ZHMT]

Her fair is good, hits frame 8, lingers until frame 20. Autocancels on frame 28 (15 frames landing lag otherwise), 9% damage and combos into itself once. After you hit them twice the third fair isn't always a combo but can frame trap.

I wouldn't say its the new Melee bair because bair had more horizontal range, each hit did more damage and it combos more than two hits.

Its like Brawl bair with some hitstun.

 

[drakeirving]

The disjoint on Melee bair is what makes it. I find it much easier to weave in - bair - weave out than doing so with Smash 4 fair, which is pretty core to Melee Jiggs since it's fundamentally part of her weaving game. It's still sort of similar and the lasting hitbox is nice, but just a little more disjoint would be fantastic.

 

[ZHMT]

How much disjoint does bair have if any? Her foot is clearly behind the hitbox but it doesn't mean too much as her hurtbox could be past her foot, we don't know. I wanna test it somehow.

Also if the second hitbox (the weaker smaller one that's the furthest from her) was just a half unit further away, it would make bair soo much better, not just because of added range but because it would remove the overlap with the stronger hitbox and be a lot easier to hit with it. It sucks that the weaker hitbox is prioritized over the stronger one. Dang hitbox IDs >>

 

[ZeroJanitor]

Does Jigglypuff even get anything out of throws in this game? The only thing I use them for is getting people offstage.