Meta Jigglypuff Competitive and Metagame Discussion

[san.]

I got 9th out of 51 with Puff only at a central Florida tournament recently. Also got 3rd in teams, barely lost in losers finals <<. I was the only Puff main there, Hungrybox didn't show up and the only other player that plays Puff lives in Miami.

I lost to 2nd twice, Ryo's Ike. I don't know the matchup too well and don't know if I was just outplayed or its hard for Puff. It was so hard to gimp him because side b sends Ike so far and fast and his up b/aether has super armor. How does Jiggs combat Aether? I know it should be vunerable at some point. Also you really can't afford to have any habits shown vs a good Ike with Puff. Ryo was able to punish me with moves like fsmash or dsmash because he just knew where I was going to go.

Aether is great in front, but it has 2 key weaknesses: Ike is completely vulnerable after he jumps up to grab the sword. You can throw out any lingering hitbox. All you need to do is wait offstage if he's going to aether. If he does normal aether, just hit him as he rises. If he does reverse aether, you have to dodge the initial hit first or just punish his onstage landing. Ike is aware of this, so he will use quick draw more often than not, which is a lot more annoying for puff to deal with. While Ike is spinning, aether is much more vulnerable from above in this game than in Brawl. I haven't tried it yet, but even Jigglypuff dair may have a chance of hitting it.

Quick draw is weak against air dodges and diagonal approaches. Jiggs doesn't have much of the latter, so you just have to approach the quickdraw quickly and air dodge, since even if Ike releases it early, Jiggs is one of the few characters with enough air speed to possibly punish if Ike QD's high to the other side of the stage if the stage has no platforms.

Other than that, similar to DK, Ike is probably going to take a hit or 2 and return if you can't get a nice fair wall or nair on him.

Ike was a lot easier to deal with onstage in Brawl since you could just air dodge maneuver around him before or shield grab a lot more easily, but it's still quite a good situation offstage. The key punishment you look for is to go aggro whenever Ike uses his double jump. He's going to want to fast fall or throw something out quickly to avoid being caught. Definitely play for gimps and hardcore offstage play, because the % to kill game is going to be uphill when you can get killed from a read or random aerial/tilt.


Without the old air dodge and grab range, I'm having a difficult time acclimating my playstyle with Jigglypuff to the new game. Dash grab also feels a lot different than it used to. It just feels like I'm working harder to get wins.

 

[ZHMT]

Wait, so you can go behind Ike and hit him when hes rising with something like Nair? I though the had super armor at that point, maybe my timing was off.

Also Quick Draw is his side B I assume? Yeah that move is annoying. It was my first time encountering it so I originally tried to just nair and see if it beats it which it didn't, so from then on I just respected it and let him recover basically which is bad. Does it recover longer horizontally the more he holds it? Basically rushing it down and avoiding the hit is the best thing then as you said.

Personally I find that since Puff has no kill throws or kill setups from throws, and throws are so important in this game, you really need to either punish/gimp them offstage and after that if applicable ledge trap them hard. If I don't know how to do this, the matchup is hard for me and maybe Puff in general.

In terms of her grab, I don't have a problem getting grabs really. I'm not seeing the same issue you are with her grabs, although her grab range horizontally is average at best. Also her grab is frame 6 which is above average in this game and her pivot and dash grabs are faster in this game than Brawl.

Personally I think I was just outplayed player vs player. The matchup doesn't seem bad for either character. I whiffed a rest game 2 and rolled from the ledge when I shouldn't have, as well as challenged his usmash which is silly. Oh well, Ill just take in what you guys said and learn from it.

Also Jiggs dair can beat his up B, I did it once but idk if its her best option from above yet.

 

[san.]

Yep. Ike's super armor starts when the upB hitbox begins, but disappears once he starts to jump up. You can just throw out a fair/nair between him and the sword.

Ike can't act out of his sideB if it doesn't hit anyone. If it does, he has a limited time to perform another action (99% of the time, double jump or upB). He's vulnerable if he tries to use sideB and has no double jump since he only has upB left.

Jiggs' Brawl dash grab just felt longer-ranged and received grab armor often, probably just used to that. Normal grab and pivot grab are still fine to me.

I don't think it's bad for either character.

It's risky. It's definitely not her best, but it's pretty easy once you understand the timing to intercept. Ike always jumps up with aether behind the spinning sword, so you just need to throw out an attack in that general area behind the spinning sword.

 

[Desu~]

So I got into another tourney tonight and pretty much got wrecked tonight because of two issues there.

First one was Yoshi. I seriously couldn't know how to deal with him. Most of his move seemed impossible to punish accordingly because his gameplay is too good for me now. Any tippers for that?
Second one was at loser brackets. Got stalled and camped by a Toon Link. I wasn't too much in there because I kinda got weak-minded during that match. I seriously just can't stand approaching long range characters for a long period of time. Would really be appreciated to know what to do well at times like this.

The other thing would be Sheik. But that's just... yeah. Sheik.

I'll probably have the replays of my first two matches. I'll post them on the video thread if anyone is willing to give me advice.

 

[Coonce]

Yoshi is tough, and the super armor on his second jump means we don't get any easy early gimps.

I don't have much advice for Yoshi, but for Toon Link here's what I do: First you corner them. So get them with their back to the ledge. Next, it's a guessing game. He wants to get out of the corner, so you need to guess what he'll do. He has a lot of options but if you guess right you can end up knocking him off and getting a quick gimp kill. Staying one roll length away from him works best for me. At that length I can cover most ground options by reaction, but I typically need to get the read to punish an aerial escape, since Puff's vertical speed is poor. If he has a bomb in hand, he has more options. So look out for that.

 

[MaxThunder]

on link/toon link, airdodge to easily catch bombs=P...

 

[Desu~]

Link is usually of no issue for me, but Toon Link is harder since he's faster and (somehow) hit you more like a truck.

 

[ZHMT]

Against characters with tether grabs besides ZSS sometimes you need to shield a lot more. Their grab has awful risk/reward and once you condition them to grab more you can easily do an out of shield jump/roll and rest them for free. Just don't be dumb with it. Once you force them to grab a lot, the matchup is going to be easier because for every 3-4 grabs they land, you only need to punish it once and you're still winning off it. I do this vs Link and Samus all the time. In Link and Toons case, they both have bad out of shield options as well. Their usmash is slow and easy to avoid, grab is slower then average and really laggy, up b is generally bad oos.

 

[ZHMT]

With the confirmation of ledge snaps having a frame (or more) of vunerability, Puff just got pseudo buffed. Puff is rarely forced to grab the ledge since she can float and wait at will and had 6 jumps. Mix this with out fair having 12 active frames and nair having 24 and we can throw out hitboxes at the ledge that linger. This means characters like Lucario, Rosalina, Fox, Marth, Sheik, or any character that uses an up special at the ledge can be hit when they begin the ledge snap. Its somewhat hard to time with a lot of characters but not with Puff usually.

Also dtilt is active frame 10-12, 3 frames activity is okay for a steady hitbox so you can throw it out at the ledge at characters like Fox side B and hit them over and over until they decide to Up B which you can react to. Puffs Down tilt doesn't hit low but does hit characters hands when they hang from the ledge. Angled ftilt doesn't work unfortunately vs Fox Side B if he's gonna grab the ledge.

What this concludes is a grab puts them offstage and we have reliable ways to edgeguard. In Brawl there was no vunerability during ledge snaps. Even just one vunerable frame is enough for Puff to destroy characters.

 

[Browny]

Is it even possible to hit crouching opponents with bair? It feels to me like the maximum hitbox is so incredibly thin that the attack hits the ground (therefore, cancels the bair) by the time the htibox is extended.

I raged pretty hard trying to hit a grounded kirby with bair.

 

[Desu~]

Yes Bair does not seem to hit any grounded characters that could potentially be the same height as Jiggs.
But any other attacks works against them.

 

[Funtroon]

Any idea on how to handle extremely campy R.O.Bs? I faced one who put a lot of emphasis on camping with the spinner and lazer and by going across the stage and I found it very difficult to approach.

I had to rely on Sing set ups to beat him/her, but that can only take me so far.

Also, how viable is Puff in this game? Hungrybox has recently stated that she isn't reliable which had me confused because I find Jiggs a lot better that where she was in Brawl. Not Melee power, but still good!

 

[HFlash]

Hello guys! Captain Falcon main here, was playing a good Puff the other night and just couldn't seem to get past the wall of bairs and pounds. I feel like the MU should be even since Falcon has such a huge weight/ kill potential advantage but I just don't know how to approach a puff if she spaces her bairs and pounds correctly. Any advice?

 

[ZHMT]

I was browsing through some Puff frame data and it turns out this is the first game where Rest hits for more than 1 frame. It hits on frame 2-4, which makes it a lot easier to hit things like Sonics spindash, Falcons Raptor Boost, and other moving opponents since were invincible frame 1.

Also bair and fair autocancel frame 28. Maybe 29, I gotta double check, which is awesome for fair because it stays active until frame 19 making it extremely hard to punish without trading.

Fair active 8-9 strong, 10-19 weak, autocancels frame 28.

That's sooooo good lmao, 9 vunerable frames and then 2 or 4 landing lag mixed with top tier mobility? Yes please.

 

[Jiggly]

I was browsing through some Puff frame data and it turns out this is the first game where Rest hits for more than 1 frame. It hits on frame 2-4, which makes it a lot easier to hit things like Sonics spindash, Falcons Raptor Boost, and other moving opponents since were invincible frame 1.

Also bair and fair autocancel frame 28. Maybe 29, I gotta double check, which is awesome for fair because it stays active until frame 19 making it extremely hard to punish without trading.

Fair active 8-9 strong, 10-19 weak, autocancels frame 28.

That's sooooo good lmao, 9 vunerable frames and then 2 or 4 landing lag mixed with top tier mobility? Yes please.

I wanna try some rest to cancel specials, see if I come across anything decent.

 

[Salad Bowl]

I just can't gimp yoshi and villager

Wait why don't we have a match up thread

 

[Jiggly]

Wait why don't we have a match up thread

No one has made one or attempted to lead one

 

[Desu~]

But I thought people leading the MU thread were supposed to be the cool guys that beat M2K with said character!

 

[TheReflexWonder]

You can crouch under, no joke, about half of Falcon's entire moveset, and that position allows you to easily powershield a lot of the most threatening stuff out of crouch, like B-Air. At least a slight advantage for Jigglypuff if not better.

The matchup is incredibly boring if you're playing it right, because neither of you has any incentive to approach. You watch out for U-Air when you're spacing in the air. Anytime you get hit, jump away and airdodge in order to try to get back to the neutral position.

Try to punish with N-Air/F-Air and Dash Attack, as Falcon usually doesn't have enough endlag to get much more than that. He's also fairly easy to abuse when you love tap him in the air. I don't show it well in this set, but N-Airs, F-Airs, and D-Airs do work on a recovering Falcon; you can catch his ledge snap before he grabs it pretty easily with all of your lingering hitboxes.

 

[Salad Bowl]

Her crouch makes the ZSS MU one of ZSS's worst MU.

Also Sing is actually good this game. Good sleep duration, and you still ledge tech so woo. At 50% its long enough for a rest and its good for reading rolls and reading them getting up from the ledge.

 

[Salad Bowl]

http://smashboards.com/threads/pokemon-battle-strategies-sm4sh-jigglypuff-matchup-thread.384478/
Heres a MU thread. I made one since we didnt have one. Start were discussing Mario

 

[Ieven]

I didn't find a Q&A topic, so i'll ask here. Can we do something after Puff side B ? I almost break the shield in most of part but never completely, even if i hit, you get often punish.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

No. A grounded one has less range but is safer on block because you don't get as close to them.

 

[Ieven]

No. A grounded one has less range but is safer on block because you don't get as close to them.

So, you mean that you may get punish more in the air then on the ground ?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Yes. By moving forward more during an aerial Pound, you're closer to them, allowing them to get punishes with moves that otherwise wouldn't reach you.

 

[Salad Bowl]

Honestly I can't tell if dair was buffed or nerfed. It's possible to spike this game while in brawl it was way easier to get a rest off. It's still good but I really don't know if it's better.

 

[Klaxon]

To me it seems much easier to get all of the hits with, and I've actually gotten the spike to work a few times, but I've never tried getting a rest out of it

 

[Freezie KO]

I was playing as Puff today a lot on For Glory. I consider her a solid secondary to my Olimar main. (I guess I like characters that die very very early.)

Anyway, I was doing very well except against a Rosalina and Luma. I beat all of that player's other characters, but could barely take a game off Rosaluma.

I find that the disjointed rangey aerials are so much better with Luma than what Jiggs can throw out, yet that's supposed to be Jigglypuff's specialty. Rosa has an obviously better approach on the ground, especially with dash attack. Pretty much all Jiggs has in her kit over Rosa is Rest. If the Rosa played perfectly and I had no Rest punish, I couldn't get in.

Any tips for the Rosa match-up?

 

[drakeirving]

Rosa's aerials are crazy disjoint and do beat us, but she has more lag on her moves as well as a big hitbox. She has rockin' spacing capabilities but they're largely invalidated by Jiggs' aerial spacing since our horizontal momentum is way better. Luma isn't nearly as much of a bother offensively as with other characters since you'll only ever be in danger when it's right below you (because of jab combo, utilt, etc). Defensively, she can get a lot more use of Luma close up, since you're a lot less safe on shield and Star Bits is good at keeping Jiggs away. Because of this, sending Luma outwards is a pretty terrible idea as you can just jump over and go to town. Additionally, Luma can't hit us during throws anymore so they're a fine option.

Overall, I think our main game here is space and punish (as usual), rather than rush. Rosalina's dash attack is unsafe on shield because of its somewhat laggy end, you can grab (or Rest?) it for free. Jiggs' nair beats her recovery (which has a static trajectory) and bair works great for stages with walls, so gimping is rather straightforward.

 

[Freezie KO]

Rosa's aerials are crazy disjoint and do beat us, but she has more lag on her moves as well as a big hitbox. She has rockin' spacing capabilities but they're largely invalidated by Jiggs' aerial spacing since our horizontal momentum is way better. Luma isn't nearly as much of a bother offensively as with other characters since you'll only ever be in danger when it's right below you (for jab combo). Defensively, she can get a lot more use of Luma close up, since you're a lot less safe on shield and Star Bits is good at keeping Jiggs away. Because of this, sending Luma outwards is a pretty terrible idea as you can just jump over and go to town. Additionally, Luma can't hit us during throws anymore so they're a fine option.

Overall, I think our main game here is space and punish (as usual), rather than rush. Rosalina's dash attack is unsafe on shield because of its somewhat laggy end, you can grab (or Rest?) it for free. Jiggs' nair beats her recovery (which has a static trajectory) and bair works great for stages with walls, so gimping is rather straightforward.

Thanks! I'll try to bait more and punish recovery options with nair.

 

[Zediwonder]

I don't know if this information is available in another thread anywhere but I really want to know where the hitbox on rest is. It's a very dangerous move but also super rewarding but I seem to always whiff it despite using it only in really safe situations where I generally have enough time to position myself.

Might be better to just not use rest at all but it really gives Jiggs a good comeback move in bad situations.

 

[Roy Renard]

I don't know if this information is available in another thread anywhere but I really want to know where the hitbox on rest is. It's a very dangerous move but also super rewarding but I seem to always whiff it despite using it only in really safe situations where I generally have enough time to position myself.

Might be better to just not use rest at all but it really gives Jiggs a good comeback move in bad situations.

From my experience, Rest's hitbox is quite strange, because I have landed countless of them in situations that don't seem that safe, really. For example, positioning myself one roll distance away and immediately pressing down B when I see the other player rolling towards me, or after spot-dodging dash attacks, or even after powershielding stuff that's not so laggy. I once got to land a Rest against a Fox who approached with a super safe n-air. However, I have whiffed many Rests after landing Sings or breaking shields (I run towards them until Puff started pushing them and pressed down B, but it didn't work for some reason).

Also, I have one question. Is it viable or possible at all to tomahawk with Jiggs? I had trouble with a Yoshi and a Sheik that spammed shield as soon as I took into the skies, so when I noticed this and tried to fast-fall, run grab, the just started jabbing/f-tilting, which ruined every attempt, because Jiggs is so damn slow on the ground. Maybe landing behind and turnaround grab is better, but I suck at turnaround grabbing. So, what is the best way to beat opponents that shield a lot? Is it just me being too slow to perform a tomahawk, or is spacing aerials in order to bait grabs/rolls/any reaction the way to go for Jiggs to beat shield spam?

 

[Jiggly]

If your opponents are spamming shield on approach, throw out some pounds, they eat about 65% of their shield. This mixup will put them in their place and can force them to play a different, maybe uncomfortable, playstyle.

 

[Roy Renard]

I tend to Pound a lot, but that still gets me punished or grabbed, and shields regenerate super fast in this game, so they barely get any shield break; they get shield-poked at best. So, is it ok to just take the punish like a man, as long as they get shield-poked the next time?

 

[Zediwonder]

I was versing a jiggs on For Glory today and although pound does have a rather hefty start up it's hitbox stays active deceptively long, I charged in to punish and was surprised when the hitbox for pound was still active. I think the frames are active so long as Jiggs arm is out, though I have no way to test it myself but if it is the case pound stays out for a good amount of time.

 

[Roy Renard]

I don't know anymore, when the game came out, I spammed Pound like there was no tomorrow to punish whiffed attacks and stuff, but against good players it's basically a gamble where they can be hit with the long duration hitbox, or they can punish hard, since it's quite laggy. I just tend to throw it out now to punish those characters who tend to just rush at you, expecting to get you with dash attacks or dash grabs *cough* For Glory Captain Falcons and Little Macs*

 

[Desu~]

There's something I would like to confirm.
Does the grounded pound does more damage to the shield than a pound that is made airborne?
Im confused here because this video shows a couple of character who seems to have full shield and it gets totally destroyed.
Or is it really because it was already damaged to begin with?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

They're already weakened at that point. They do the same amount of shield damage either way; Pound deals a little more than half of a full shield's worth of "health."

 

[ZHMT]

Yeah its the same damage, 11% (+20 shield damage, so 62% of a shield, maybe a bit more with freshness bonus)

Also I'm starting to really like pound a lot lately. You only need to deal 19% damage to a shield and pound will break it, not taking into account possible shield regen and drain.

If I say, short hop bair a shield and then fair it safely afterwards, I know that I have a move that is unblockable for a short time and if it hits, the reward is usually their stock.

Its similar to a pseudo kill throw you can use in the air once their shield is weakened a bit.

Shields can take 50 damage before breaking.

 

[Zediwonder]

The problem with using pound as a shield breaker is that everyone is now aware of how good it is at breaking shields and will avoid it. Playing Jigglypuff only casually, my friends rarely shield and will generally roll away as a safer option to having their shield broken. It's still a really good move but relying on it as a shieldbreaker is dangerous especially since pound doesn't really combo out of anything and leaves you open if you miscalculate slightly.