Isaac for DLC - One day. Some day. Golden Sunday.

[True Blue Warrior]

What if Felix actually doesn't have a son, but a daughter?

 

[JaidynReiman]

What if Felix actually doesn't have a son, but a daughter?

I'd be down for that. I'd be especially happy if she turned out to be the main protagonist in that case, though I still don't like just instantly moving on to "Felix's kid" because GS2 moved onto Felix. Maybe we can start GS4 off playing as Isaac instead as he's overwhelmed by Alex's power?


I'd also like to see more of the original cast come back as playable characters. They're pretty powerful, aren't they? Wouldn't it be a good idea to consult those who are already quite powerful to help save the world? If we move onto Felix's kid or whatever, I'd also like Felix himself to be playable later, along with whoever Felix ended up with, Matthew back again, Isaac (but with some alterations so he and Matthew aren't clones), a couple of important additions from Dark Dawn (perhaps Sveta), 1-2 new characters, Jenna and Garret as well.

Would be neat to get all the playable characters from the first game back at least. And I sure hope not ALL of them have kids, there's gotta be at least somehow that didn't run off and get married. Sheesh.


Btw, I still don't know much about Dark Dawn. Still waiting for GS2 to come out... Ugh... I should replay Golden Sun again soon, though. I picked it up now so I have an actual copy of the game. I'll play it on my spare time and get myself better items than I did before to transfer over.

 

[JohnnySparkxs]

I would like that the 4th instalment of GS finally brings us a Warrior Jupiter Adept.

 

[JaidynReiman]

I would like that the 4th instalment of GS finally brings us a Warrior Jupiter Adept.

Um, Sveta already is:
http://goldensun.wikia.com/wiki/Sveta

 

[Deleted member]

Um, Sveta already is:
http://goldensun.wikia.com/wiki/Sveta

Well, that's the case, but like Himi, you kinda get her around the time where you already feel comfortable with your elemental Adept of that slot.

Now, when Amiti came along, however... I ditched Rief and put him at the front. Same with Eoleo and Tyrell.

 

[Felix the Slayer]

B-but... Felix needs to have a bad@ss half-Proxian kid to take over his reign as coolest protagonist! Or we could just get a full-blooded Proxian in the party, I would be pretty down with that, too 8D *wishful thinking*

Why would Felix have a half Proxian kid, him and Sheba had a thing going, so it'd only make since that if he has a kid it'd be human.

Well, that's the case, but like Himi, you kinda get her around the time where you already feel comfortable with your elemental Adept of that slot.

Now, when Amiti came along, however... I ditched Rief and put him at the front. Same with Eoleo and Tyrell.

I did the same thing, I didn't really like Rief, and I find Tyrell to be very annoying.

 

[JaidynReiman]

Why would Felix have a half Proxian kid, him and Sheba had a thing going, so it'd only make since that if he has a kid it'd be human.

I did the same thing, I didn't really like Rief, and I find Tyrell to be very annoying.

Yeah, personally, if Felix ended up with anyone it was probably Sheba.

 

[LasermasterA]

Why would Felix have a half Proxian kid, him and Sheba had a thing going, so it'd only make since that if he has a kid it'd be human.

I did the same thing, I didn't really like Rief, and I find Tyrell to be very annoying.

I think that Tyrell is basically the fan version of Garet. A lot of fanwork shows Garet as a total fool, klutz, much exaggerated from his actual self. Tyrell is that. A much more annoying version of Garet (although some jokes at his expense are not THAT bad).

I'd also like to see more of the original cast come back as playable characters. They're pretty powerful, aren't they? Wouldn't it be a good idea to consult those who are already quite powerful to help save the world? If we move onto Felix's kid or whatever, I'd also like Felix himself to be playable later, along with whoever Felix ended up with, Matthew back again, Isaac (but with some alterations so he and Matthew aren't clones), a couple of important additions from Dark Dawn (perhaps Sveta), 1-2 new characters, Jenna and Garret as well.

Would be neat to get all the playable characters from the first game back at least. And I sure hope not ALL of them have kids, there's gotta be at least somehow that didn't run off and get married. Sheesh.

Yea it gets a bit annoying that all the characters have gotten married and now we get to control their kids. It is not like their parents (who are very strong + aging super slowly) are going to sit around doing nothing. I would love to control Isaac though with some changes considering how his powers apparently increased/changed after the events of GS 2. Plus there were tons of sequel hooks dropped in regards to Isaac and Garet's disappearance, Piers and Nowell's future destination, Felix's and Sheba's complete absence, etc.

I think it should be a mix of the newer party from DD and the parties from TLA. Or just add both

Plus then there is Takeru who is apparently going to play a role in GS4 (not really interested in him though, considering how bland his sister was).

I'll play it on my spare time and get myself better items than I did before to transfer over.

Actually just transferring all the Djinn and some items like the Lure cap is enough. By the time Isaac's crew joins Felix, most of their equipment is outdated. Although picking up 2 Kikiuchimonjis via RNG method was nice. Gotta love that sword... and that name!

 

[JaidynReiman]

I think that Tyrell is basically the fan version of Garet. A lot of fanwork shows Garet as a total fool, klutz, much exaggerated from his actual self. Tyrell is that. A much more annoying version of Garet (although some jokes at his expense are not THAT bad).



Yea it gets a bit annoying that all the characters have gotten married and now we get to control their kids. It is not like their parents (who are very strong + aging super slowly) are going to sit around doing nothing. I would love to control Isaac though with some changes considering how his powers apparently increased/changed after the events of GS 2. Plus there were tons of sequel hooks dropped in regards to Isaac and Garet's disappearance, Piers and Nowell's future destination, Felix's and Sheba's complete absence, etc.

I think it should be a mix of the newer party from DD and the parties from TLA. Or just add both

Plus then there is Takeru who is apparently going to play a role in GS4 (not really interested in him though, considering how bland his sister was).



Actually just transferring all the Djinn and some items like the Lure cap is enough. By the time Isaac's crew joins Felix, most of their equipment is outdated. Although picking up 2 Kikiuchimonjis via RNG method was nice. Gotta love that sword... and that name!

I was referring to the weapons. Than Kikiuchimonji especially; I never got that on my prior playthrough.


But yeah, its lame how you're now playing as the kids of all the characters from the past games, when they're still in tip-top fighting shape. We should be able to play as characters from both. I'd say most of the characters from Lost Age and at least half the characters from Dark Dawn, with maybe 1-2 new ones.



Tyrell and Matthew are the main problem factors due to them being clones of Garet and Isaac, though. Matthew would probably be easier to resolve by changing up Isaac's fighting style and, for the most part, making Isaac playing in a side story until late in the game when he finally rejoins (since he's probably the most powerful of the original cast, along with maybe Felix).


Although, naturally, I would not object to the starting main character being Felix's kid if Felix and Sheba had a daughter. Maybe even make her a Warrior Wind Adept. :D


Another possible way for Isaac and Felix to be differentiated: Make Isaac Light and Felix Dark as they've grown in power and shifted slightly due to the release of Light/Dark Psynergy.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Yeah, personally, if Felix ended up with anyone it was probably Sheba.

He jumped off a fricking lighthouse for her. No excuses for her not to give him that good good.

 

[LasermasterA]

I was referring to the weapons. Than Kikiuchimonji especially; I never got that on my prior playthrough.

I love that weapon but even that weapon gets outclassed in Lost Age. Still cool to have to use against Saturos and Menardi though.

But yeah, its lame how you're now playing as the kids of all the characters from the past games, when they're still in tip-top fighting shape. We should be able to play as characters from both.

Yea on a sombre note, they (Matthew, Tyrell, Karis and Rief) will age faster than their parents. Unless another part of DD is retconned to give them some energy to slow their aging.

Another possible way for Isaac and Felix to be differentiated: Make Isaac Light and Felix Dark as they've grown in power and shifted slightly due to the release of Light/Dark Psynergy.

They will have to fit that into the storyline somehow. Isaac can get some Mars type powers due to the events of TLA but Light and Dark will seem a bit too farfetched. Especially since Light Psynergy so far is unique to people of Belinsk.

Plus Felix would actually have to be the High Empyror to be a Dark Adept.

 

[Oracle_Summon]

Nintendo might give more DLC characters when they talk about Mewtwo. It is likely that Nintendo will talk about Mewtwo DLC in the nearest Nintendo Direct video, it would be good timing for sales and to expose SSB4 DLC to the public; however, the scenario we want is Nintendo to reveal more SSB4 DLC alongside Mewtwo and hope that our Earth Adept is one of them.

 

[Felix the Slayer]

Since we're on the subject of light and dark psynergy, here's fan made art of light and dark djinns, I think they're pretty cool looking.

Spoiler

 

[Accursed]

Well, that's the case, but like Himi, you kinda get her around the time where you already feel comfortable with your elemental Adept of that slot.

Now, when Amiti came along, however... I ditched Rief and put him at the front. Same with Eoleo and Tyrell.

Am I the only person who, when playing RPGs, use every character and try to level them up at the same time? I do that with Fire Emblem, Golden Sun, Persona, etc. Heck, I even to that with non RPGs with many characters like Mega Man ZX, Majora's Mask, and Pikmin. I guess I'm just OCD for that stuff.

Since we're on the subject of light and dark psynergy, here's fan made art of light and dark djinns, I think they're pretty cool looking.

Spoiler

The design is cool, and the art is amazing, but they're a little too similar to Mercury and Jupiter Djinns for my taste.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

I wonder how Felix feels about the fact that Isaac married his sister?

 

[Nerdicon]

*Patiently waiting for The Lost Age to come to America*
*Also hopes for Dark Dawn for DS Virtual Console*
*Also begs for Isaac in Smash*
*Also sells his soul to get a Golden Sun 4*

 

[JaidynReiman]

I love that weapon but even that weapon gets outclassed in Lost Age. Still cool to have to use against Saturos and Menardi though.


Yea on a sombre note, they (Matthew, Tyrell, Karis and Rief) will age faster than their parents. Unless another part of DD is retconned to give them some energy to slow their aging.


They will have to fit that into the storyline somehow. Isaac can get some Mars type powers due to the events of TLA but Light and Dark will seem a bit too farfetched. Especially since Light Psynergy so far is unique to people of Belinsk.

Plus Felix would actually have to be the High Empyror to be a Dark Adept.

Oh, I didn't realize. Nevermind. Still, it'd be nice to have a Light/Dark user.

 

[Altais]

Since we're on the subject of light and dark psynergy, here's fan made art of light and dark djinns, I think they're pretty cool looking.

Spoiler

Whoa...those actually look pretty cool. I could definitely see something like this in Golden Sun.

 

[FalKoopa]

Since we're on the subject of light and dark psynergy, here's fan made art of light and dark djinns, I think they're pretty cool looking.

Spoiler

Should borrow a little from Reshiram and Zekrom, perhaps? Looks cool though.
I'm quite satisfied with the Fire-Water-Wind-Earth system though. It's based on ancient Greek philosophy after all.

In other news, I'm going to complete my Lost Age playthrough. I haven't gotten around playing it since over 6 months.

 

[RhymesWithEmpty]

Why would Felix have a half Proxian kid, him and Sheba had a thing going, so it'd only make since that if he has a kid it'd be human.

I refuse to acknowledge the Felix/Sheba ship D8< He needs Proxian babies, arrrrgggghhhhhhhhh! [/unreasonable fanboy]

 

[JohnnySparkxs]

What if Felix actually doesn't have a son, but a daughter?

Then Matthew would marry her.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

It's funny because Jen-WAIT JENNA AND FELIX ARE BROTHERS MEANING MATTHEW AND FELIX'S KID ARE FAMILY!

Then Matthew would marry her.

 

[RhymesWithEmpty]

Then Matthew would marry her.

No incest in my Golden Sun pl0x :|

It's funny because Jen-WAIT JENNA AND FELIX ARE BROTHERS MEANING MATTHEW AND FELIX'S KID ARE FAMILY!

JENNA IS FELIX'S BROTHER?! THIS BRINGS UP ALL KINDS OF NEW QUESTIONS!

 

[Diddy Kong]

Then Matthew would marry her.

I could so see this happening despite Matthew being Jenna's son and all.

 

[JaidynReiman]

I could see Matthew falling in love with her, not realizing she's actually his cousin, then later finding out. She might not even realize it, either. And even if Matthew sees Felix or Felix's daughter sees Jenna, they would not realize who each other is until they were named. Better yet if Matthew does not meet her father, but only her mother (probably Sheba), and she meets Isaac instead of Jenna.


I have realized, though, that if Felix/Sheba did end up together, then that means all the main characters from the first game who survived the events of the game had a child prior to Dark Dawn. Including the franchise main antagonist!


Piers would be the only playable character from the first two games not to have a kid.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I never played Dark Dawn, but wasn't Jenna living with Ivan togheter in Kalay or somewhere? Or both of them living there? I always thought that was sort of strange.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I never played Dark Dawn, but wasn't Jenna living with Ivan togheter in Kalay or somewhere? Or both of them living there? I always thought that was sort of strange.

Neither Ivan or Jenna are mentioned or seen outside small references to familial ties.

Which include Jenna being Isaac's wife.

Though all Vale survivors live in one town apparently.

Still, I'd rather not put adultry in Golden Sun.

It's not the series' thing.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Fire Emblem has corrupted me, and I didn't even have to play Awakening for it...

 

[FalKoopa]

Fire Emblem has had darker themes as sub-text for quite sometime, really. Probably because they didn't have to worry about ESRB.

 

[Nerdicon]

Fire Emblem has had darker themes as sub-text for quite sometime, really. Probably because they didn't have to worry about ESRB.

Aren't we talking about the same series where

Spoiler

Felix and Isaac are tricked into murdering their lost parents?

Cause that's pretty dark in my book.

 

[JaidynReiman]

There's definitely a lot of dark themes in GS from what I've seen so far. I mean, the entire world is literally falling apart.

 

[LasermasterA]

There's definitely a lot of dark themes in GS from what I've seen so far. I mean, the entire world is literally falling apart.

And so was our thread.

It was rocking apart into bits with those puns.

 

[JohnnySparkxs]

And then shipping happened.

 

[LasermasterA]

And then shipping happened.

Heck have you seen the number of GS shippings...

That is one big list.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Aren't we talking about the same series where

Spoiler

Felix and Isaac are tricked into murdering their lost parents?

Cause that's pretty dark in my book.

But they didn't exactly kill them in the end. Only Isaac really knew what he was doing, but still. Not really all too dark as in the JP-only Fire Emblem games. Or western Fire Emblem games actually. Anyway, Golden Sun is good as it is. A little more characterisation to the cast would be nice, especially if they where to bring back Isaac and the gang.

 

[N3ON]

It's never good when the ship hits the fans.

 

[Rugal Cuttah]

The Golden Earth-Shaking adept! Isaac of Golden Sun!

Overview​

Isaac, the Earth-shaking adept from Camelot’s acclaimed RPG series Golden Sun could possibly join the Smash in the next titles. Wielding both swords and axes, as well as commanding a wide array of Earth psynergy (magic), the potential of Isaac’s moveset is almost endless, as well as much different than anything seen before in Smash. From creating earthquakes, to creating Earth-spires, to causing eruptions, to shooting vines, to summoning huge swords to devastate the battlefield, Isaac has possibilities to create one of the most varied characters yet, and this is really just the tip of Isaac’s power.

First appearing in the 2001 GBA title Golden Sun as the main protagonist, and then reappearing in the 2003 and 2010 sequels, as well as appearing in Brawl as an Assist Trophy, Isaac has already had significant exposure, and represents a critically-marveled and commercially successful RPG series that to date has unjustly received relatively little acknowledgement when compared to other RPG or Nintendo series.

Relatively popular and requested, and one of the frontrunners for currently unrepresented series in Smash, Isaac could very well appear in the next Smash as a playable character. It is certainly inarguable that no matter Isaac’s chances, he would offer a wholly unique magic-and-swordplay combo of a moveset, which wouldn’t be possible with any other character.

Will the sun shine on Isaac again? Will he be able to devastate the field with an onslaught of Earth psynergy? Only time will tell.

Who Is He?​

*slight spoilers for Golden Sun series*

Isaac is a Venus psynergy adept, which means he is an earth-related magic user. Beginning his journey at the mysterious and powerful Sol Sanctum, located inside the volcano Mt. Aleph, Isaac and his party travel across the land of Weyard to thwart the evil-doers Saturos and Menardi, and reclaim the elemental jewels which could be used to destroy Weyard. In his travels, he is joined by the Mars (fire) adept Garet, the Jupiter (wind) adept Ivan, and the Mercury (water) adept Mia, as well as many djinn, elemental creatures that in battle boost stats, can be used to attack or defend, and allow for summons (more on that below), among other abilities.

In Golden Sun: The Lost Age, a continuation of the first game, Isaac and his party meet up with the main party of the game, which includes Felix, Jenna (Isaac's childhood friend and future wife), Sheba, and Piers. Isaac is no longer the main protagonist of this game, but is still playable later on when the two parties combine to create an 8-person party. Isaac, Felix and their parties manage to light four elemental lighthouse beacons (a quest that started in the original game), and unleash a mighty power, known as the Golden Sun, which saves, but ravages, the land of Weyard. It also fills the eight party members with significant power and energy and slows their aging.

In Golden Sun: Dark Dawn, a game that takes place 30 years after the events of The Lost Age, Isaac is no longer the main protagonist, although he does show up in the game (with an epic beard ) and is a NPC in the playable party briefly. Although he is nearly 50, due to the Golden Sun he appears to be only in his thirties.

The only other appearance Isaac has had was in Super Smash Bros. Brawl, where he was one of 27 Assist Trophies. He uses the psynergy "Move" to damagelessly push opponents away from him. His trophy reads:


[collapse=More detailed summary courtesy of Swampasaur. *Spoiler warning*]
Isaac was born in the small mountain village of Vale which rests at the base of Mt. Aleph. At first he lived in peace with his parents and friends. Like his parents, Isaac is an Venus adept. One day, a great storm happens to knock a boulder loose from the mountain and the town is in panic. This is where Golden Sun starts. During the panic, Isaac and his best friend Garet met two mysterious individuals. They are defeated by the individuals and tossed aside.

Yeah... owned almost instantly.
​

Isaac grew up to be a Venus Adept while Garet and Jenna became Mars adepts. They became students of the wise old man Kraden. While going about their business, the two mysterious figures return to Vale and are spotted by Isaac, Garet, Jenna and Kraden. The group overhears some mysterious information about the Sol Sanctum and decide to see if it is true.. Once there, the group of heroes realize that they beat the strangers there. Out of curiosity, Kraden orders Isaac and Garet to take the elemental stars off of their pedestals (for scientific purposes of course). The boys gather three of the four stars but before they can grab the last one. The strangers appear and take Kraden and Jenna hostage. The two introduce themselves as Saturos and Menardi and reveal the other two members of their group: a mercury adept named Alex and Felix! Isaac and Garet decide to give the three stars to the villains and move on the grab the fourth one. Before they can get it back to the villains they are interrupted by the volcano erupting which is interrupted by the Wise One. The villains escape and take Kraden and Jenna as hostages, just in case. The Wise One then rescues Isaac and Garet and tells them about the elemental stars. There Isaac learns that the villain's plan is to light all of the elemental lighthouses which would cause the restoration of Alchemy to the world ( a bad thing, as alchemy can easily be abused). Isaac and Garet are tasked by The Wise One to get them back and so they go on your standard JRPG adventure to stop them.​

Complete with heartwarming send-off.​

​

On the way to the first lighthouse, they meet a boy named Ivan (a Jupiter adept) who joins their party and some Djinn

Once the group reaches the first lighthouse they meet Mia (a mercury adept) who joins the party as well. They venture into the Mercury Lighthouse and discover that they are too late. The beacon has been lit. The group of heroes find the villains with Kraden and Jenna. Saturos tells the others to go on ahead and he fights the heroes atop the lighthouse. Fortunately he is defeated but escapes with Alex's help. Isaac then ventures to the next lighthouse to stop them.

After a long adventure (most of the game) the group finally reaches the next lighthouse. They scale the Venus lighthouse and find the villains yet again. They lighthouse has not been lit yet and the villains also have a new hostage. A girl named Sheba. Saturos and Mernardi decide that Isaac's group has lived enough and attack! They are defeated and Isaac tries to reason with Felix but he refuses. Suddenly Saturos and Mernadi jump back up, light the lighthouse and fuse together to form a giant dragon in a last ditch effort to defeat the heroes.

Uh-oh is right.
​

Felix and his hostages watch the fight. Isaac and friends defeat the dragon, but the Lighthouse splits in two separating Felix's group from our heroes. After searching for Felix and finding nothing, the heroes head off to the next lighthouse. This is where Golden Sun ends.​

----------------------------

​

In Golden Sun: The Lost Age, Isaac is not seen for much of the game, as the story is told from Felix's perspective.

Regardless, Isaac's group makes its way to the Jupiter Lighthouse where they are ambushed by Karst and Agatio (Hey Gak, it’s you!). These two want revenge for the murder of Saturos and Mernardi. They separate Isaac's group and ambush Isaac and Ivan.​

Garet and Mia are somewhere else.​

Felix with his own party (made up of Jenna, Sheba, new recruit Piers and NPC Kraden) save Isaac and light the lighthouse. Isaac demands an explanation of Felix's action and Felix tells some incredible new information. Lighting the lighthouses isn't evil. It's good actually as alchemy will ultimately save the world from destruction. Felix has also been working with Saturos and Mernardi because they saved and captured his parents. He was working with them to earn their freedom.

After some consideration, The two groups join together and decide to light the final lighthouse. They reach it and once they make it to the top of Mars Lighthouse, they are confronted by The Wise One. The Wise One is angry that Isaac betrayed him and asks why he did so. Isaac tells The Wise One that the world will perish if the lighthouses are not lit. The Wise One counters by saying that people will destroy the world if given that much power and revealed that Alex had played them for fools. Alex was waiting on top of Mt. Aleph (where the restoration of Alchemy would start) so that he would receive power and immortality.

For justice!!​

Isaac and his friends decide to go through with it, but the Wise One summons a giant three headed dragon. After a long battle, it is revealed that the dragon was a fusion of Felix's parents and Isaac's father. Everyone is horrified but they light the lighthouse anyways.

From here, we get a heart warming ending. Felix's parents and Isaac's father recover from there injuries due to the power of the lighthouse. One more thing! Turns out after all four lighthouses were lit, Mt. Aleph sunk into the ground. Completely destroying Vale!

Oops...​

But everyone made it out okay. The Wise One actually warned the people of Vale and they managed a complete evacuation. Kraden guesses the the Wise One actually knew this would happen and simply used the dragon to test Isaac's heart. In the end, Isaac's family is restored and everything seems right in the world.

I'm gonna cry... *sniff*​

Unfortunately, Alex still got more power and immortality but not all of it. The Wise One, being wise, set things up so that while some power went to Alex, the other part went to Isaac. This is where the second Golden Sun game ends.

----------------------------​

​

​

In Golden Sun: Dark Dawn, Isaac's son, Matthew takes the center stage.


In this game Isaac (along with Garet) live in a cottage on the Goma Plateau with their sons. Here Isaac and Garet are computer contolled allies and will help Matthew and Karis (Ivan's daughter) rescue Tyrell (Garet's son) after crashing a Soarwing. After the rescue, he sends the kids to gather materials needed to repair the Soarwing. After the kids leave however, he and Garet disappear. It is currently unknown what happened to them.[/collapse]​

How Would He Play?​

In the Golden Sun series, Isaac uses multiple ways to attack, whether it be with weapons (usually a sword), psynergy attack (usually earth magic), djinn, or summons, which are huge and powerful attacks that can only be used when djinn that have previously been activated in the battle are in standby mode.

To create the best and most varied possible moveset for Isaac, all different methods of attack could be used in the moveset. Although most movesets usually use psynergy as the specials, swords attacks as the A moves, and a summon as the FS (which would make a fine moveset) the amount of different types of psynergy attacks and djinn effects could potentially downplay the amount of sword-based attacks, which would differentiate Isaac further from currently playable Smash characters. There are many characters that primarily use a sword, but none so far that have their moveset revolve around Earth or ground-based magic.

In any case, here are potential moves for Isaac's moveset:
Potential Moves

Psynergy

Quake: Creates earthquakes that shake the ground. Could be chargeable to increase size, damage or duration, or could work similarly to Donkey Kong's down special. Quake in Action.

Growth: Shoots vines upward. Could be used as recovery or even as an Up Smash or other Up attack. Could even be used to create a vine ladder as recovery. Growth in Action.

Rockfall: Causes rockslide on top of opponent. Could be used in the same vein as Pikachu's thunder or as a FS (although it would be very similar to PK starstorm).

Thorn: Shoots spiky thorns from ground. Could be used as a special or a Smash attack. Thorn in Action.

Spire: Similar to rockfall, except instead of boulders, jagged pointed rocks fall. Spire in Action

Gaia: Causes ground to erupt and shoots rocks out. Could work well as a chargeable special, or a FS (which would be similar to a reverse PK Starstorm). Gaia in Action.

Helm/Skull Splitter: Rush forward to deliver a massive swinging attack. Could work as a side special or forward attack.

Ragnarok/Odyssey: Cause a giant sword(s) to devastate the stage and impale the opponent. Would work well as a FS, or a (most likely chargeable) special. Ragnarok and Odyssey in Action.

Move: The "attack" Isaac had in Brawl, could be used as a side special or forward Smash. Will most likely be smaller and have more limited range.

Catch/Carry/Grip/etc.: Isaac could also use his "giant hand" as part of his throws and grabs, as well as it possibly giving him tether recovery.

Teleport: Could teleport Isaac, acting as recovery. Would most likely function similarly to Zelda/Sheik, though would probably not cause damage. Teleport in action. (Apologies for quality)

Djinn
While Djinn have their own section in Golden Sun games, I believe that the best way they will work (if implemented at all) for Isaac in SSB4, is if they appeared with their specific effect a small percentage of the time Isaac did an attack, let's say his forward Smash. Perhaps around 10% or 5% time Isaac did damage with his Forward Smash, a djinn would be activated and add an extra effect. Effects could be derived from specific Venus djinn, such as:

Flint: Would increase the damage and knockback done by 50%
Sap: Isaac recovers a small percent of damage.
Ground: Opponent would be dizzy momentarily after being hit.
Bane: Opponent receives extra poison damage after the hit. Similar to less-powerful Lip's Stick.

I'd love to hear opinions on this. Feel free to tell me if you agree or disagree or how you would have it changed.

Summon
(these would probably all be different options for Isaac's FS)

Ramses: His fists could act like a larger and more damaging version of Latios/Latias.

Cybele: Her summoned creature would burrow into the stage and have it explode with vines.

Judgment: Would shoot a giant energy explosion onto the center of the stage that would cause major damage. This would most likely be Isaac's Final Smash, as it is his strongest summon.

These summons could either cause a short cut-scene like Captain Falcon's FS, would happen partly in the background, like Pit's FS, or would cause the screen to shift, like Olimar's FS.

Example Movesets

Video Moveset:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYmu7ZR3Wfo
I recommend watching this one. Credit to pizzadudemanguy.

[COLLAPSE=Example Moveset 1 (and other Isaac-related stuff). Credit to ChronoBound.]I feel the Golden Sun series has enough quality to it to warrant a playable character. With that said, there is quite a bit of debate as to what kind of character Isaac should be if made playable. Some suggest that he should be a sword fighter with magic, while others suggest he should be primarily a magic user with some sword attacks thrown in. My suggestion on Isaac will be a character that balance swordplay with magic (or psynergy in the case of the Golden Sun universe).

Isaac will be very bizarre as while he does use his sword, his sword does a magic attack in tangent with the sword attack. Isaac also has very devastating attacks and is pretty fast. Isaac also uses other stuff such as bamboo, among other things. Isaac is easily one of the most unique characters on my roster, and is far from a typical sword character.

Isaac regular moves:

A: Isaac makes a horizontal slice with his sword with one hand (think Ike’s a-tilt).

A-continuously: Isaac will make continuous horizontal, diagonal, and vertical slices with his sword (though these sword attacks are weak).

Running-A: Isaac will swipe with his sword while running.
Tilt-A: Isaac does an energy palm attack (this is similar to Ganondorf’s standard A from Brawl).

Down-A: Isaac stabs the ground and fire comes up from it (think Ike’s eruption).

Up-A: Isaac will throw a small ball of energy upward (it dissipates a little bit after Isaac throws it).

A-Air: Isaac somersaults in the air with his sword.
Forward-air: Isaac whips out a bamboo stick and wildly swings it around.

Backward-air: Isaac will do a quick chop with his sword in back of him.

Down-air: Isaac plunges diagonally with his sword, however, unlike other sudden down attacks, if Isaac hits his enemy in mid-air they will be dragged down along with him until they hit the ground. Expect it to be an annoying kamekaze move.
Up-air: Isaac puts his hands together as though it were a gun a shoots out some balls of energy.

Forward-Smash: This move is based off of Cannon from Golden Sun. Isaac’s sword will glow with fire energy. When done charging, Isaac will thrust forward with his burning blade and there will be an explosion.

Down-Smash: This move is based off of Squall. Isaac jumps up in the air and plunges his sword in the ground, and when he does electricity shoots around the area where he plunged the sword, as well as there being an electric aura around Isaac.

Up-Smash: Isaac’s sword glows purple while charging. When done charging Isaac shoots out a purple blade from his sword that shoots upward. While Isaac’s up-smash has the highest reach in the game, it only does 20% damage when fully charged.

Grabs:
Isaac is capable of tether-recovery because he uses his growth vines to initially grab his opponents.

Grab-A: Thorns come out of the vines and poke the binded opponent.

Backward-Grab: Isaac whips his opponent out of the vines and then shoot them with an several small balls of energy.

Forward-Grab: Isaac will whip his opponent out of the vines, and then shoot out an Oddysey Blade.

Down-Grab: Isaac slams his opponent to the ground and then whacks them with his sword.

Up-Grab: Isaac tosses his opponent up and then shoots out an Odyssey Blade.

Isaac special moves:

B: Boulder: Isaac generates a huge boulder above his head. The boulder is created from a bunch of small rocks all fusing together. However, the bigger the boulder, the harder it will be for Isaac to psychically toss it at his opponents.

Side-B: Move: Isaac’s move from his first appearance in the Smash series makes a return. Isaac will generate a giant energy hand that is the same size as it was in Brawl. While this move does no damage, it is by far the best edge guard move in the game. However, there is an initial lag when Isaac is about to do it, and Isaac himself is vulnerable to attack while and after performing this move.

Down-B: Punji Strike: Isaac shoots bamboo sticks out of the ground in front of him. This traps opponents momentarily like DK’s side-b, however, unlike DK’s side-b, this move needs to be charged to determined how long your opponent will be trapped within the bamboo imprisonment. If done immediately, Punji Strike only holds your opponent for a second.

Up-B:Retreat: Isaac’s teleportation move is probably the best in the entire Smash series. Isaac’s will disappear in a plume of rainbowy bubbles. This move has excellent vertical and horizontal recovery, and can even go through solid stages. However, this move does not do any damage.

Final Smash: Odyssey: Isaac’s has a massive aura of psynergy surrounding his body. He then calls forth two giant swords made of psynergy that pierce one of your opponents in an X-formation (the one that is currently winning in the match). This paralyzes the opponent that got struck the opponent. Isaac then calls forth a gigantic sword that goes across the entire screen. Getting hit by this sword is an OHKO, so the person who got hit with the two swords is pretty much screwed, however, your unparalyzed opponents can jump over this sword, though it takes a double jump to avoid it.

Isaac’s taunts are as follows:
1. Isaac will smile and look up at the sky, and then close his eyes, while a small amount of pebbles circle his body.
2. Isaac will stretch, and then crack his knuckles.
3. Isaac will make a whole bunch of pebbles levitate above his head with his powers, one of the pebbles falls on top of Isaac’s head, he then rubs his head and all the other pebbles fall.

Isaac’s victory animations are as follows:
1. Isaac will do a whole bunch of slashes with his sword then he does a slight smirk.
2. Isaac will close both his eyes, smile, and give a thumb-up with one of his hands.
3. Isaac will make a whole bunch of rocks encircle his body, and then make them drop after a bit.

Running-animation:
Isaac’s running animation is not bizarre, and is quite plain. Isaac simply runs in similar fashion as Mario.

Idle animation:
Isaac will look pretty battle-ready from his face, though he stands how he stands when he is summoned from his Assist Trophy form in Brawl. Isaac will routinely clench his fists, and crack his knuckles.

Costumes:
1. Isaac’s main clothing becomes red, while the scarf-cape becomes green.
2. Isaac’s main clothing becomes yellow, while the scarf-cape becomes blue.
3. Isaac’s main clothing becomes green, while the scarf-cape becomes red.
4. Isaac’s main clothing becomes black, while the scarf-cape becomes red.
5. Isaac borrows the same color scheme for his costume that Felix has.

Kirby Hat:
Kirby will gain Issac’s hair upon absorbing him, and will be able to perform the special move Boulder.

Isaac-Snake Codec Conversation:
Snake: Otacon, I’m fighting another one of those sword kids.
Otacon: Actually, this “kid” is different. His name is Isaac. He uses some sort of psychic ability called psynergy.
Snake: ...Psynergy?
Otacon: Its like sort of psychic energy and magic combined, it has elemental affiliation to it. Isaac is an Earth adept and can manipulate duh earth related elements.
Snake: Yeah...
Otacon: Not only that, he can create swords and hands with his psynergy abilities as well as teleport.
Snake: Yawn....
Otacon: So, what is so boring about a guy who can create giant swords and boulders with his MIND.
Snake: Its not him, its just that I have seen it all, you know what I mean.
Otacon: Yeah, I guess all those years fighting those bizarre opponents really took away your ability to say “Wow”.
Snake: I guess. Thanks for the heads up on this guy.
End of codec.

End of Isaac moveset.[/COLLAPSE]
[COLLAPSE="Example Moveset 2. Credit to Cos."]Nuetral Standing A - punch
Neutral Standing A,A - punch, moves slightly foward second punch
Neutral Standing A,A,A,Etc - punch, punch, knee, repeat

Dashing A - quick Strike (similar to Marth's dashing A, sword has a blueish glow)

f+tilt A - punji (does a mid height swipe with a bamboo stick, attack can be angled)
u+tilt A - sword slash (attacks above self in a half circle slash)
d+tilt A - planet diver (similar to Samus' d+tilt)

Nuetral Air A - straight posistioned sex kick ( Samus,Link,Falco,Shiek)
Forward Air A - cutting edge (slashes forward with blade, two phantom slashes follow while Isaac falls towards the ground)
Up Air A - rock slide ( a group of damaging rocks shortly circle Isaac (slightly similar to Kirby's neutral air a))
Down Air A - death plunge (attacks with sword in a swandive and pulls the enemy downwards for the duration of the attack)
Back Air A - blast (puts hand behind back and attacks with a sweetspotted, small explosion)

Forward A Smash - force (a large gloved fists punches foward, can be angled)
Down A Smash - sword swipe (similar to Link's, Marth's down a smash)
Up A Smash - plasma (Isaac raises his hand and attacks with a multiple hitting, electrifying ball in his hand)

Grab: Isaac grabs with his growth vines (can be used as a recover)
Neutral A Grab - thorn (opponent is tied up in vines, thorns come out of the vines and give damage)
Down Throw - Gale (throws the opponent downwards into a whirlwind, which sends the opponent flying upwards)
Front, Back, Up Throw - Move (A large gloved hand throws the opponent in the choosen direction)

Neutral B - Gaia (summons a boulder above head that is thrown downwards in a 45° angle (can be charged like Ness' neutral B)
Forward B - Ragnarok (shoots a large sword straight forward. Likely extremely laggy)
Down B - Tornado (twirls around in a circle and gives damage) (or Mind Read: shortly disables opponent (like Mewtwo's down b))
Up B Recovery - Phoenix (flies upward in a fiery phoenix animation) (or Retreat: Teleports self in a rainbow of colorful bubbles)

Super Move: Justice (summons a large knight who blasts the whole field), or Halt (can shortly stop all opponents from moving and can give damage in that time), or Oddessey (similar to Ragnarok, just with a much larger sword)

Taunt: Stands still and has the wind blow through his hair while staring into the distance.[/COLLAPSE]
[COLLAPSE="Example Moveset 3. Credit to SuichimoTheDragoon."]A- A quick slash with his sword (2%, 4% at tip)

Over+A- A sword thrust (8-9%, 13-14% at tip)

Smash Over+A- Cannon (14-20%, 16-25% at tip)A quick running slash forwards.

Up+A- A 180 degree swing of your sword. Starting from your front side ending behind you. (7-9%, 10-13% at tip)

Smash Up+A- Flint (15-22%, 17-24% at tip) A strong jumping slash. That has decent knockback and it turns brown when it hits.

Down+A- Thrust your sword at a downwards diagonal angle. (9-11%, 11-14% at tip)

Smash Down+A- Squall (13-20%, 15-23% at tip) A jumping slash. Not alot of knock back but it may stun you for just a second lighting surrounds the person who is hit.

B- Cutting Edge (Shockwave 5-8%, Hit by sword 9-11% ) You create a shock wave, by swinging your sword down, that travels across the stage until it hits a person. It would be able to be used as fast as Falco's gun.

Over+B- Annihilation (8-12%, 13-16% at tip) Quick rushing slash forward.

Up+B- Planetary (Hit by dragon 13-16%, Hit by explosion 15% ) Isaac jumps high into the air and comes down as a flaming dragon head making an explosion when he hits.

Down+B- Punji Strike (4-12% ) Isaac shoots bamboo out of the ground in front of him. Anyone caught recieves continuous damage and can't move like Donkey's Down+B

Up+Grab- Death Leap (7-11% ) Leap into the air and slam back down.

Forward+Grab- Perform a horizontal slash across your opponents chest. (8-12% )

Back+Grab- Teleport behind the person your grabbing and slash their back. (9-11% )

Down+Grab- Throw the person you are grappling into the ground. (7-10% )

Shield- Granite

Brawl Attack- Catastrophe

Isaac raises his arm and screams "Catastrophe!". The screen goes dark and lightning shoots from the sky. You see a huge menacing figure with darg angel wings and many weapons descend from the heavens. He charges energy and sends it to the tip of his sword, incasing it in a triangular pyramid seal. He shoots it down to the field, it explodes open and shoots out electricity on either side in the shape of a dragon's head. [/COLLAPSE]
[COLLAPSE="Example Moveset 4. Credit to Diddy Kong."]B: Ragnarok. Isaac / Matthew charge up their blade similary in fashion like the FE characters would (but with no freedom of letting go like them) and casts a huge sword-like projectile out of it about a Bowser and a half wide (with an awesome sweetspot in the very middle) about 2 characters in front of him. The move would be as slow almost as Ganondorf's Warlock Punch, but has around the same knockback (weaker still) and does a whopping 28~32% when sweetspotted. 19~22% if a little off, 10~14% at the very end of the move). The move would probably have some super armor as well at the last few frames of the move.


Up B: Growth. Plants grow out of the ground to attack, or grow around a ledge for Isaac to climb back to the stage (working similary to a ladder). The plants would cause a slight sort of trapping effect, and do around 5% damage, but could be a good set up for a stronger attack. The higher the other character's %, the longer they stay trapped kinda similar to how ZZS's stun works, but this one is somewhat weaker. You can escape the plants by jumping.


Side B: I'd want to put Move here, but I kinda dislike the idea of it being an attack for him so... I say this should be Stone Spire, a ranged charge up move involving stone spires falling out of the sky on an opponent. If charged for a little, just one Spire comes out, and does about 12~14% damage, and could be considered as Isaac's main projectile, as it'd be coming out as fast as PK Fire would (except it being slightly stronger and with shorter range). Charged up somewhat longer and Isaac would cast 2 Spires next to each other, each doing about 12~14% damage. Charged up fully Isaac would cast a total of 4 Spires, and the effect would be similar to Charizard's Rock Smash on earlier %s, and would have nice knockback.


Down B: Gaia. A moveable projectile you can aim at the ground, where you can create an earthy erruption out of when releasing B. Like Stone Spire, you can actually build up damage as well when holding B, but this one lacks the sheer power you can build up with Stone Spire, but it can trap better, and requires a little more skill even. It's a option only usable on SOLID ground, so not on small platforms, it can also be done around edges, but not OVER the edges as it needs ground to be preformed. And it's strongest or most effective when a character is on the ground as well. It's actually like a moveable mine of sorts, and can be as strong depending on how long you hold B. It's the same kind of story with Stone Spire, hold B briefly and release and Gaia would be a small erruption, covering about 1.5 a Mario wide and does 11~14% if the opponent gets trapped in fully. Hold it longer and you'd have Mother Gaia which'd already cover 3 Mario's wide and could do 16~18%, hold if for the longest and you have Grand Gaia, which is a massive attack doing 23~27% and delivers great knockback if the opponents gets trapped in the move fully. As a general rule with this move, the stones comming out of the erruption do the building up damage, would work KIND OF similar to the Smart Bombs.


General playstyle of Isaac would be harder to learn than most characters, as his ranged attacks are his biggest assets. His Psynergy is rather slow, but are very good setups, a small Gaia spell could be cast into a stronger Spire spell, or otherwise. He'd be highly unpredictable, but at the same time, rather slow and furnable while casting spells. He wouldn't like projectile spam himself either, but Isaac has a strong big shield to protect himself with (like, Mewtwo's big shield but slightly smaller) and a normal Spire would be fast enough to counter back with most of the time.

He's highly versitale in his B moves, and his A moves would mostly consist of sword attacks. His sword would be a little longer than Toon Link's, and are mostly swift attacks with only a few moves you can effectively kill with. As a Venus Adept he fights the best on the ground, and would perhaps have a below average aerial game and jumps. He also would be a tad lighter than Marth, but shorter as well. He would mainly be good at egdeguarding, and KOing characters from the side of the screen, not from the top. His grab game is above average though and his throws go far and do good damage, and could possibly be ranged if they implenent the Move ability from him in it (it wouldn't go as far as in Brawl, but rather about a character in front of him) to counter these seeminly broken grabs, if Isaac would miss a grab, there is some serious lag involved. His running speed is about as fast as Luigi's, maybe a little faster even. Overall he's a character you have to play with smarts, but he can be highly effective if used well. His Psynergy is powerful and great for setting up combos, but he's still rather fragile, and even though he has some speed you have to watch out for lag often.

As a Final Smash, it must be Judgement: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_iHwgkwtMUY

I feel Djinni could also make part of Isaac's Smash moves, having their own gimmick that they need to 'recharge' to use the move as strongly as before. Isaac should have a dangerous ground game, but he'd be weak in the air. His aerials are similar to Roy's in usage, yet not quite as fast, but with a little better reach (counting Roy's sweetspots, otherwise they have lower overall range). And his air speed would also be rather sluggish.[/COLLAPSE]
[COLLAPSE=Example Moveset 5. Credit to Swampasaur]
Isaac Moveset

Stats
Size: 5
Same as his size in Brawl.

Weight: 6
Slightly above normal. He's heavy as the earth he controls... Plus he's wearing a breastplate. That's kinda heavy.

Speed: 5
Normal speed. He's not fast but he doesn't need it.

Air Speed: 3
Pretty bad. Then again, Isaac is not meant to be in the air. He's a Venus adapt.

Fall Speed: 8
He falls like a rock. Natural for an Earth adapt.

Jump: 5
His initial jump is a lot better than most would expect. For it, Isaac would use the earth to launch him upward. However his midair jump is quite atrocious. He is definitely meant to be a grounded character.

Traction: 9
Among the best in the game. He is affected by ice though. Unlike .

Throwing: 8
Isaac using Catch Psyenergy has great throwing range and decent power as well!

Reach: 7
Many of Isaac's attacks are actually psyenergy attacks. This gives him more range than most. The moves that aren't Psyengery are sword swipes which also have decent range.

Jab Combo
A: Isaac does a quick horizontal slice.
A,A: After the initial attack Isaac slices in the opposite direction.

Dash Attack
Isaac runs forward and sticks out his sword skewering his opponents (at least the animation looks like it)on it and sending them flying.

Tilts
F-Tilt: Isaac stretches out his hand and commands a rock to rise up in front of him, hitting the enemy.
U-Tilt: Isaac stands still and does a light stab upwards.
D-Tilt: Isaac crouches and performs a downward angled stab.

Aerials

N-Air: Isaac retracts his arms and legs as small rocks orbit around him. This is a multihit attack.
F-Air: Isaac swings his sword and does a full spin around. This can hit up to two times in the same attack if the position is right.
U-Air: Isaac throws some crystal powder upwards which causes an icy explosion on contact. Can freeze enemies at certain percentages.
B-Air: Isaac hits the opponent with his shoulder and follows up by throwing an oil drop in their face. This is a small explosion on hit. A decent kill move if both hit.
D-Air: Isaac causes a small boulder to form in his hands and throws it downward. This rock will fall straight down for a while similar to Megaman's Hard Knuckle. However this does not meteor smash and should be used as a sort of projectile instead.

Smashes
F-Smash: Isaac performs his famous leaping attack. This is his attack animation from the Golden Sun games and its pretty similar to Toon Link's F-Smash in Project M.
U-Smash: Isaac clenches his hands as the ground on either side of him starts to shake. After charging Isaac turns his palms upward as sand flies around above him. A small whirlwhind of sand appears above him and will suck enemies in (kinda like Pikachu's D-Smash). The attack ends as a small sandsplosion happens to knock enemies away. This is a multihit attack.
D-Smash: Isaac kneels on one knee and clenches his fists. After charging he stands up as the two sections of earth next to him shake a bit. If this hits, the enemy will sink into the ground as if they were hit by a Pitfall. Isaac is then free to do what he wants as they are burried.

Throws
Isaac's psyenergy hand comes out for his throws! His grab animation is him sending out the psyengery hand to grab people. It is a ranged grab, but it cannot do anything in the air. While grabbing/pummeling/throwing the opponent, Isaac will mimic the movements of the giant hand with his own hand (or the giant hand is mimicing Isaac's hand )
Pummel: The hand will squeeze the opponent.
F-Throw: The hand will lightly throw the opponent forward and follow up with Force Psyenergy to really send them flying!
U-Throw: The hand will throw the opponent upwards with an underhand throw.
B-Throw: The hand throws the opponent up slightly and swats them away behind Isaac.
D-Throw: The hand throws the opponent at the ground and follows up with a Pound Psyenergy!

Specials
N-Special: Isaac casts move! Isaac holds out his hand and has the familar hand from Brawl come out. It acts exactly the same, though it's 1/3 the size and 1/3 the range.
S-Special: Isaac casts vine. Isaac puts his hands on the ground as a small section of the ground lights up. It moves if you hold down the button. The longer you hold it down, the longer it goes. When you release the button, vines pop out of the ground where the light was. It's kinda of like a ground based version if Din's Fire if that makes sense. This does not work in the air.
U-Special: Isaac performs retreat. Isaac teleports as a bunch of rainbow like jewels forms around him causing small damage with little knockback. The same jewels appear where he appears.
D-Special: Isaac casts Quake. Isaac thrusts his sword in the earth while two pillars of earth come up on each side in a ripple effect, launching players up. Kind of like the animation for quake in GS. I hope that makes sense.... This also cannot be used in the air. Isaac is meant to be ground based.

Final Smash: JUDGEMENT!!!
Isaac lifts his hand up to the sky and yells "Come! Judgement!" as Judgement flies into the background. He'll charge up a blast for about five seconds. While this is happening Isaac is still vulnerable to enemy attacks. After five seconds Judgement will fire the blast at the center of the stage creating a circular blast about 7/8 of Final Destination's length. The blast lasts for 3 seconds. This attack does high knockback and high damage.

Other Attacks
Ledge Attack: Isaac grips the end of the stage and has a small pillar erupt from the ground right in front of him. He then climbs up.
Over 100%: Isaac struggles to get on the ledge and swings his sword as he gets up.

Floor Attack: Isaac opens his eyes and smiles as two stalagmites erupt from the ground on both sides of him. He then gets up casually.

Entrance
Isaac beams down using Retreat and unsheathes his sword.

Taunts
U-Taunt: Isaac looks at the screen and makes the

emoticon.
S-Taunt: A Djinn jumps out of Isaac with a flash of light. It runs around Isaac while Isaac laughs. The Djinn then jumps back into Isaac as it "sets" itself.
D-Taunt: Isaac uses his psyenergy to have some rocks orbit around him. He smiles as they all fall to the ground.

Idle Animation
If you wait long enough. Isaac will look at the screen and make the

emoticon.

Victory Animations
1. Isaac sheathes his sword and does a small arm pump while light shines from his hand.
2. A Djinn jumps out of Isaac and faces him. Isaac kneels down and pets him.
3. Isaac crosses his arms and chuckles as the

emoticon appears.

Kirby Hat
Kirby gains Isaac's golden hair and his move ability.[/COLLAPSE]
Feel free to discuss these movesets and post your own movesets. Isaac has so many options, practically every moveset is different!

Matthew: Another Possibility

Although Isaac is usually thought of when it comes to a Golden Sun rep in Smash Bros, his son Matthew, protagonist and main character of Dark Dawn, could also be a legitimate contender to the Golden Sun spot, and is really Isaac's main competition, as Sakurai might want to include the newest main character of Golden Sun instead of the first main character. However, like father like son, as Matthew is practically the same as Isaac, moveset capability-wise and aesthetically. If he were to be included in Smash over Isaac, he would most likely still have a moveset that could apply to both him and his father. Mostly what it comes down to is a name and outfit difference, and that's pretty much it.

Also, comments given by Golden Sun developers Camelot have suggested that Isaac's game were really a "prologue" to the main Golden Sun storyline, which will most likely star Matthew in the main role. Here are the Takahashi brothers (the presidents of Camelot and creators of Golden Sun) comments regarding this:


If Matthew really is to become the "main character" of Golden Sun in the future, Sakurai might choose to include him, as he will remain relevant to Golden Sun while Isaac might be limited to supporting roles, or not be included at all in the possible future games.

Nevertheless, some only support Isaac while others only support Matthew, while some, like me, support both, and would be happy getting either. But what do you think? Do you think that Isaac will be the "Marth" of his series and get the playable spot? Or do you think that Sakurai will want to represent Golden Sun with the newest and possibly "main" protagonist? (If Golden Sun gets a rep at all). Feel free to discuss your opinions and why or why not you support Isaac or Matthew or both (or neither).

What Are His Chances?
​

Well, chances are always a tricky thing to predict accurately, and no amount of speculation will be able to yield anything more than an educated guess, but there are a few ways to better determine the odds of or against a character: Eligibility, Pros and Cons, and Arguments/Counterarguments.

These three first test to see if a character is even eligible based on standards set by the creator and previous additions or exclusions, then weigh the redeeming and positive qualities of the character or points in their favor against things that might hinder their inclusion, and finally deal with common arguments against inclusion, with the goal to clear up misconception and provide the most accurate view of the character's chances. Now it helps when the person doing this is unbiased against the character, but I'll try to be as neutral as possible. Embarrass

So first off is:
Eligibility

The most basic conditions to pass here are is the character of a video game origin, and have they been on a Nintendo console. Isaac (or Matthew), as a 2nd party Nintendo character, obviously passes both.
Then, we move on to the four conditions Sakurai has set on what he looks for in a characters addition:

[COLLAPSE="Sakurai's Four Conditions"]1) The character’s inclusion must make people want to play the game
As popularity polls and fan demand prove, there would be an audience that would enjoy playing as Isaac.

2) The character must be unique
Unless both Isaac and Matthew make it in (which they won’t), there really is no problem here. Isaac has the potential to be just about as unique as they come.

3) The character must fit into the style of Smash Bros.
Already appearing as an Assist Trophy, Isaac proves that he is able to mesh well with the existing worlds and characters of Smash Bros.

4) The character must contribute to the game balance
This sort of seems like it would mostly be up to the developers, but Isaac would be able to use a mix of magic and swordplay, which would bring something very interesting to the balance of the game.[/COLLAPSE]
So Isaac passes the eligibility round. Honestly though, almost all Smash 4 candidates would, it's not exactly difficult.

Next are the
Pros and Cons

First are the pros and cons to the inclusion of a Golden Sun character in general, followed by the pros and cons of including Isaac over Matthew, then Matthew over Isaac. If there are any more pros and cons you can think of, please let me know!

[COLLAPSE="Golden Sun Pros & Cons"]Pros:

• One of Nintendo's most critically and (proportionate) commercially successful series not yet represented. (With characters that Sakurai hasn't deemed unworkable)
• Wide and unique moveset potential
• Largely requested playable character
• New game post-Brawl

Cons:​

• Series declining in popularity (especially in Japan)
• Unsure future
  
  [/COLLAPSE]​

[COLLAPSE="Isaac's Pros & Cons"]Pros:

• Most popular and requested Golden Sun character
• One of the most requested SSB4 characters in general (excluding Japan)
• Most prevalent/well-known Golden Sun character
• Already appeared in Smash

Cons:

• Not current or future protagonist
• Hasn't had a starring role since pre-Brawl

[/COLLAPSE]
[COLLAPSE="Matthew's Pros & Cons"]Pros:

• Current and possibly future protagonist
• Relatively recent appearance

Cons:

• Not as popular or requested as Isaac
• Game not as critically or commercially successful as Isaac's

[/COLLAPSE]
Lastly the
Arguments/Counterarguments

These are my attempts to refute some of the most commonly found arguments brought up against Isaac, such as relevance, declining popularity, being generic, and competition. Feel free to add your own points for or against my counterarguments! ^_^
(Also, apologies to Matthew fans/supporters, I wrote these with Isaac in mind. Most can also apply to Matthew as well though.)

[COLLAPSE="Isaac hasn't been playable since before Brawl, he is no longer relevant."]It may be true that Isaac hasn’t been playable since before Brawl, but by no means does that mean he isn’t relevant, and more importantly, popular. In Dark Dawn, Isaac was no longer playable, but he still played a rather sizeable supporting role, with more dialogue than he ever had before (), and is still quite relevant to his series and Smash speculation.

However, more importantly, he has retained his popularity for the most part since Brawl. He is still the most popular character in a series still relevant, which frankly is more important than the character itself being relevant (though he is that as well). Plus, as an AT in Brawl, he has remained in the minds of many which has probably contributed to his longstanding popularity, prevalence, and relevance. [/COLLAPSE]
[COLLAPSE="Smash already has enough sword-users."]Even if Isaac isn’t included, we are bound to get some new sword users in SSB4, whether they be Takamaru, Shulk, Saki, Krom, Ghirahim, Samurai Goroh, or other characters. However, Isaac wouldn’t be just a sword-based character, like some of the previously mentioned characters would be. If implemented well, Isaac’s moveset would revolve more around Venus psynergy (Earth-based magic) than it would around swordplay, which would probably be limited to only some A attacks. In this way, Isaac wouldn’t be a sword-user in the same vein as Link or Marth, but more of a varied and diverse fighter. For more examples and details on Isaac’s potential moveset, you can look at the Potential Moves section. [/COLLAPSE]
[COLLAPSE="Isaac is too generic! Look at his spiky blonde hair!"]As ridiculous as this argument is, believe it or not I’ve heard it before, assumingly from someone who never played Golden Sun. Much like the answer above, Isaac’s moveset would be an amalgamation of different Earth-based magic attacks (such as earthquakes and plant control), swordplay (or possibly even axeplay), as well as a giant destructive summon. What other spiky blonde haired swordsmen can do that? (other than Matthew) [/COLLAPSE]
[COLLAPSE="Isaac has no popularity in Japan."]It’s true that the majority of Isaac’s popularity really resides outside of Japan, but that doesn’t mean he isn’t requested in his native country as well. The notion that Isaac isn’t popular in Japan is one that has unfortunately been exaggerated over time. He still shows up semi-regularly in Japanese Smash discussions and is acknowledged as a distinct possibility (though they also acknowledge he has more popularity in the west). I would say in Japan he is the equivalent to a character on Smashboards that isn’t at the top of any polls, but is still regularly regarded as a character who is while not the most likely, still has a shot (such as perhaps Starfy). To put it in perspective, if Sakurai included Isaac in SSB4, while it might be mostly because of the western Smashers, it wouldn’t be almost solely because of them (like Little Mac or Ridley would be). [/COLLAPSE]
[COLLAPSE="Golden Sun isn't popular anymore."]I won’t deny that Dark Dawn did not meet the level of sales or critical success that the original two games did (which sold slightly above and slightly below one million respectively), but that doesn’t make the series unpopular. Dark Dawn still sold several hundred k which isn’t terrible (it’s better than some other unrepped Nintendo series’ most recent games) and honestly isn’t bad enough to warrant the declaration of complete loss of popularity. Also, it is important to note that while the casual Golden Sun market and popularity has decreased, the more hardcore fans (like the ones who request Isaac for Smash), are, yes, perhaps dismayed by Dark Dawn’s quality, but still for the most part active and supporting the series. It’s not like several hundred k is a bomb or an average critical score of around 80% is a terrible game. [/COLLAPSE]
[COLLAPSE="Isaac is outclassed by other characters from unrepresented series."]This is the argument against Isaac that I believe carries the most weight. While he isn’t necessarily “outclassed” by other characters from unrepresented series, he does face some fierce competition from them. However, this argument could also apply to many of them. Also, it’s not like there will only be room for one character from an unrepresented series. If Brawl is anything to go by, we might get around 3. (I don’t consider new retro characters in the category that might jeopardize characters such as Isaac, since their inclusion seems to be based on different standards than other characters – same with new 3rd parties).

Characters like Starfy or Saki Isaac is overall more requested than (even in Japan Isaac is around the same requests as Starfy on most sites), as well as having a more prolific and well-known series that has been released internationally in every installment, something that Sakurai values. Sakurai seems to favor Saki (or at least Sin & Punishment), but how much his bias will affect him is left to be seen. However going by a sales comparison (which granted, isn’t a very good way to compare things in Smash Bros.) approximately ten times more people would be familiar with Isaac than Saki, which would help with Sakurai’s first rule of Smash eligibility: the character’s inclusion must make people want to play the game. It’s not a rigid rule, but generally people want to play a game more when they know more of the characters. However, Sakurai’s bias and Saki’s Japanese popularity might win through.

I believe the biggest competitors to Isaac lie in Little Mac and Shulk. While Little Mac has basically no demand in Japan (Isaac definitely has more), his western popularity and demand outmatch Isaac. If Sakurai looks to the west for a new series to represent, chances are it won’t be Golden Sun; it will be Little Mac and Punch-Out. However, that’s not to say they both can’t be in the game, truthfully there’s a fairly good chance of that happening. The only other character I believe might out-prioritize Isaac from being included, is Shulk from Xenoblade. There’s a chance they might both make it in (personally I would love that); however there is also a fairly large chance it will be one or the other. Other than likely movesets, they have a lot of similarities, such as genre and aesthetics, and adding both might make Sakurai feel like it would be overkill (I personally doubt Sakurai will have this mentality, it's more likely one will just be given more priority than the other, possibly resulting in one ending up on the chopping block). Both also have points for and against them, Shulk has lots of Japanese support as well as fairly decent western support, however Sakurai might feel his is too new, and obviously his one game isn’t as widespread as the Golden Sun series. Meanwhile Isaac has lots of western support as well as maintaining popularity and has been heavily requested since pre-Brawl. Plus despite what people say, Sakurai judges series based on the overall series, not the most recent game. However, Isaac doesn’t have nearly as much Japanese support Shulk does. If Ridley and Little Mac are included, perhaps Sakurai will think the west has been appeased enough? All I can say is it will be very interesting to see which one (or both! Please?) makes it.

And this isn’t to say that Sakurai has a fixed number of new (non-retro, non-3rd party) series he wants to represent. Each character stands on their own merit, but based on previous rosters, it wouldn’t be likely to go over three or four. [/COLLAPSE]
[COLLAPSE="Isaac won't be included/has decreased chances because he is a 2nd-party character."]As there is no concrete proof that second-parties are viewed as “lesser” by Sakurai, this is a huge assumption to make, sometimes predicated on a pattern that doesn’t actually exist. Sakurai’s previous actions when it comes to new series addition in Smash indicate that he includes characters based on the prominence of their series. The series added so far (excluding the series Sakurai has dismissed for playability and series that have had their largest impact after Brawl’s development) have been Nintendo’s largest and most popular. Isaac and other 2nd party characters that have been previously omitted from being playable weren’t omitted on the basis of them being 2nd party, it is because they weren’t as prevalent, prominent, or popular as the characters/series added. Sakurai isn’t going to add a seemingly random less-popular series (which the non-Pokémon 2nd party IPs were in previous development times) over a series that clearly deserves it more. Again, other than Pokémon, Nintendo’s first-parties that have been included are just larger and more popular than its second-parties, which is the reason they were included first.

Until we see an incredibly deserving 2nd party character or series (which, truthfully, there aren’t any this time around), one more deserving than most of the remaining first-parties, being passed up in favour of additions made up solely of first-parties, third-parties, and Pokémon (which is not in fact in its own category, it is a second party IP, and like all second parties, has partial control over its IP which Sakurai is obviously willing to negotiate on), this assumption should just be treated as a fairly flawed and faulty theory, and should have no effect on roster speculation.

Other arguments that fit under this section are people who claim that 2nd parties are too much effort to work with, 2nd parties won’t be included because Nintendo does not have full, guaranteed lifelong rights to their IPs, or Sakurai would not find merit in a series not fully owned by Nintendo. As for the first point, Sakurai has negotiated with Game Freak three times already in regards to characters, as well as 2nd-parties like Camelot and Noise, and 3rd-parties like TOSE, Treasure, and especially Sega and Konami in regards to content involvement. Obviously he makes the effort necessary to contact these 2nd and 3rd parties if he thinks the addition is merited, which obviously he has previously. There would be no reason why he would change this mentality now. As for the second and third points, the fact that he has included characters not even partially owned by Nintendo should pretty much show that legal ownership and creative control do not outweigh Sakurai’s belief that the character in question merits inclusion. And if Sakurai thinks third-parties merit inclusion, it’s entirely possible he’d think 2nd-parties could.

What everything so far boils down to is again, the first-parties included up to this point have been bigger, more popular, and/or more important than the non-Pokémon second parties, like Golden Sun. It’s not that 2nd-parties get purposely excluded, at this time that is simply an unfounded theory which shouldn’t hold any weight. [/COLLAPSE]
[COLLAPSE="Sakurai doesn't think Isaac or Golden Sun merit inclusion."]This commonly believed idea that was caused by the statement "Pikmin and Animal Crossing are the only Nintendo series introduced since 2001 that Sakurai feels are worthy of being given playable characters." is actually a misinterpretation. Sakurai's actual statement is "One thing that was kind of a challenge is that we haven't had a lot of new characters from Nintendo since Captain Olimar [that could work well in a fighting game]; a lot of games have been Mario titles or new iterations of existing series.", which clearly designates characters created post-Olimar and pre-Brawl (like Starfy), of which Isaac and Golden Sun are not part of, having been released before Pikmin. He is also referring to fighting potential, not merit, like originally thought. Sakurai's opinions about Golden Sun are unknown at this time, though it did warrant an AT last time.[/COLLAPSE]
If you can think of any other arguments used regularly against Isaac (or Matthew) that I forgot, feel free to share them! I’ll try my best to get to them

More on Isaac and Golden Sun

Epic Golden Sun Icon made by Onyx Oblivian

Isaac for SSBB thread
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=73511

Isaac at SmashWiki
http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Isaac

Isaac at Golden Sun Universe
http://goldensunwiki.net/Isaac

Isaac at the Golden Sun Wiki
http://goldensun.wikia.com/wiki/Isaac

Golden Sun on Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Sun_(series)

Takahashi Bros. interview about Dark Dawn (source for the quotes)
http://goldensun.nintendo.com/developer-interview/

[collapse=Isaac Palette Swap. Credit to Venus of the Desert Bloom.]

[/collapse]​

[collapse=Isaac Palette Swap. Credit to X Naut Shroober]

The first recolor is based on Garret and the second is based on Matthew. The red is based on Jenna. The blue is based on Alex and the green is based on Felix.[/collapse]

[collapse=Isaac Palette Swap. Credit to FalKoopa]

[/collapse]
​

So feel free to discuss Isaac, Matthew, and anything related to Golden Sun in Smash 4 below. Share your movesets, stage or AT ideas, discuss his pros and cons, rate his chances, and don't hesitate to correct or criticize what I've written.

List of Supporters​

Spoiler

• Accursed
• Adeptmune
• AgatioGanon
• Aguki90
• aldelaro5
• Altais
• andimidna
• Aqua Rock X
• AquaDork1
• Arteen
• Aureola
• Aurora Jenny
• Backgammon
• Bane84
• bassem6
• Bassoonist
• Bingoshi
• Blaziken
• BoN~
• BridgesWithTurtles
• Bunny8093
• Cap'nChreest
• Captain Toad
• CheckmateChuck
• CheeseBroJoe
• Cheezey Bites
• CliffJumper
• cocy965
• Crap-Zapper
• Dalek_Kolt
• Desert Croc
• Destroyer713
• Diddy Kong
• Dimensionsword64
• DivinexRose
• Doncalot
• DraginHikari
• Drakonis
• Dromader
• DukeNapoleon
• DustyPumpkin
• e105beta
• Eagle
• EddyBearr
• Edlocke
• egaddmario
• EndlessChrom
• ethanrodgers223
• Falgor
• Falkoopa
• False Sense
• Felix_the_Slayer
• fenyx4
• ferioku
• FirstBlade
• fogbadge.
• foolssigma
• FreddyOnDrugs
• GM_3826
• Gotann
• GraveEclipse567
• iam8bit
• IntelliHeath1
• Invisible Shiny Bulbasaur
• isaac3000
• JaidynReiman
• Jak_spoon
• JDogindy
• jweb22
• KCCHIEFS27
• Keybladeguy
• Kikaru
• Kind Dedede
• KingShadow
• KiraYoshikage
• Kisae
• Kumatora
• Kycse
• Lady Palutena
• LasermasterA
• LaniusShrike
• Leafeon523
• LeeYawshee
• legendofrob1
• lightdasher
• Lightosia
• Lucimar
• lunarum
• Lurxy
• M23-X0
• MagiusNecros
• MAGMIS
• Malcolm Belmont
• MaskO'Gears
• Master Rapier
• MasterMushroom
• Mav485
• Mega Bidoof
• Mendelsin
• MetalMario128
• Mishudo
• MorbidAltruism
• mynameisv
• N3ON
• Neo Zero
• Niala
• Nimbostratus
• Ninjakid41592
• NitrusVirus
• NonSpecificGuy
• NoR4U
• Octillus
• Oddyesy
• Oniric Spriter
• Oracle_Summon
• Oz37
• Pacack
• Papagenos
• Pcubed007
• Phaazoid
• Plain Yogurt
• PSIguy89
• R.O.B.
• Radical Beam
• Raetah
• Really Shy Guy
• RhymeswithEmpty
• Ryan
• Ryuutakeshi
• Sabrewulf238
• Sagittarius
• sandfall
• Scatmansworld25
• Secret Sexytime
• Seleir
• SG9000
• _Sheik
• sheik93
• Shinhed-echi
• SirCamp
• skaaaa
• Skyblade12
• Skyfox2000
• SmashBro99
• smashkirby
• SmashShadow
• Smash_Handle69
• someonetookjacob
• SonicLink125
• SorrowOfAcheron
• Spazzy_D
• Sqid
• SSBFan
• Staarih
• StaffofSmashing
• Strider_Bond00J
• SuperBrawler
• Superyoshiom
• Swampasaur
• T-Hell
• TCT~Phantom
• TeenGirlSquad
• The Curious Volnutt
• Thekewlusername
• The One Who Wrote This
• TheTactician
• thethirdkoopa
• TimeSmash
• TimeSmash
• ToothiestAura
• True Blue Warrior
• Turmalinium
• UltimateWario
• Ultinarok
• Vann Accessible
• Vegito2727
• Venus of the Desert Bloom
• Vintage Creep
• Violenceman
• Warheart_666
• Wigglytuff ★
• Xenigma
• Xiivi
• xLemmy_KoopaX
• XxLtxX
• YoshiandToad
• Young Horsetail
• Your Hero
• zagman505
• Zandro
• ZanZero
• ZeldaMaster
• Zulyar

Credit to True Blue Warrior for compiling the list

If you would like to be added to the list, please tag me with your request.

Isaac for SSB4!! ^_^

banner by FalKoopa

Last edited 08/10/14

Yes golden sun has no rep at all. Needs one definitely. Isaac and one more from golden please.

 

[TeamFlareZakk]

B-but... Felix needs to have a bad@ss half-Proxian kid to take over his reign as coolest protagonist! Or we could just get a full-blooded Proxian in the party, I would be pretty down with that, too 8D *wishful thinking*

OMG, yes please make this happen!

I don't like the idea of immediately jumping to Felix's son, just because of Dark Dawn starring Matthew. And who says Felix even has a son?


But yeah, I do like the idea of getting to beat up Alex.

Actually Matthew is Felix's nephew so therefore I think that's good enough, Felix seems like more of a loner therefore perhaps he shouldn't be shipped.

I'd love to verse Agatio as R.O.B some time. Let's see how useless he really is.

If Isaac got one hit koed by Agatio, what makes you think ROB would stand a chance of beating him?

I'd rather pick Link if I were to verse Agatio.

I'd like to know why have Isaac dlc rather than just have him from the start?

Is he like Mewtwo where he is not finished yet?

Do they want to not spoil something?

Are they including trophies of other Golden Sun characters, a stage, therefore it would be a dlc pack that would take some time to complete?

I hope it's all of the above.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Is he like Mewtwo where he is not finished yet?

Actually, Mewtwo's development only started this year, and was only made DLC to see if fans would buy it, unless you meant DLC development

 

[JaidynReiman]

Actually, Mewtwo's development only started this year, and was only made DLC to see if fans would buy it, unless you meant DLC development

No, this isn't the reason why he was made. He was described as being a test, but it couldn't possibly be about if fans would buy it.


The grand majority of people who will get Mewtwo likely bought both versions of the game. Not all of them bought both games for Mewtwo (I'm one of the exceptions). They also have no idea whether or not buying Mewtwo will be an incentive for everyone to buy both versions of the game.

Then when we get to after the deal when he's available on the eShop. Obviously, only people who didn't get Mewtwo will buy him separately, but they're not promoting the notion that you can get Mewtwo separately, they're only promoting the fact that if you buy both versions you can get Mewtwo.



Mewtwo may be a testing ground, but it is NOT whether or not people will buy him, because its impossible for them to tell how Mewtwo was bought and what the reasoning was. Rather, if anything, its probably about how difficult it is to develop characters post-release, how expensive it will be, and if they can distribute them easily and efficiently.