Animeko
Smash Cadet
Because you are not a selfish person, and have a mutual respect for other people. Right?
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Is All-Brawl the future competitive standard?
- Thread starter Dustlord
- Start date
DRaGZ
Smash Champion
I do. I respect your right to play your game the way you want.
I'm just not going to support the way you are playing it.
This would be like me going out and voting both Democrat and Republican somehow at the same time. Just because I respect the other side's opinions despite disagreeing with them doesn't mean I'll support them by voting for them.
Don't expect people to help something they don't agree with.
I'm just not going to support the way you are playing it.
This would be like me going out and voting both Democrat and Republican somehow at the same time. Just because I respect the other side's opinions despite disagreeing with them doesn't mean I'll support them by voting for them.
Don't expect people to help something they don't agree with.
Animeko
Smash Cadet
No, because this is not a competition where only one can win. You CAN support both. It would be more akin to you going to football game AND a baseball game.
Better yet, keeping with your analogy, it would be like going to vote only for one party, yet still showing your support for the democratic process by showing up to vote at all. Whats happening in this thread is closer to you saying its absurd that there is another party on the ticket at all.
I maintain that it is not a competition, though. Many of you are offended that the OP suggested that All-brawl might someday be the more popular choice. I'll remind you that that was not me who posted that, and that the discussion as moved in a different direction since then.
And one last time for good measure, hopefully I'll be done with this discussion: http://allisbrawl.com/news/newspost.aspx?id=183
Dragz - Both formats are at the same place, at the same time. If you are going to a Brawl tournament, you are already also going to an All-brawl tournament. At that point, you either enter and have fun, watch and have fun, or ignore it completely, but you've still shown support for the community at large by showing up and playing in at least one tournament.
DRaGZ
Smash Champion
I don't like football, so why would I go to a football game?
But I do like baseball, so I will go to a baseball game instead.
I don't like All-Brawl, so why would I go to an All-Brawl tournament?
But I do like the standard Brawl tournament ruleset, so I will go to one of those instead.
But I do like baseball, so I will go to a baseball game instead.
I don't like All-Brawl, so why would I go to an All-Brawl tournament?
But I do like the standard Brawl tournament ruleset, so I will go to one of those instead.
Oh, you mean sort of like how the casual players support competitive Smash playing and treats the competitive players with lots of respect, right? Right?
You can't expect everyone to agree and support every format. That's asking a bit too much. People will support it, of course, but there will always be people who just don't want to accept it. Point: EVO 2k8 ruleset.
Also, would there be any consideration of a non All-Brawl tournament in EVO 2k9? Cyntalan Maelstrom seem to be opposed to that, seeing how he has "Evo 2k9 Brawl: items or don't bother." in his sig on SRK. Supporting both formats? Right.
Revolver Roosevelt
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Oct 22, 2005
- Messages
- 71
TO's often do not have time to have multiple tournaments for the same game. Doubles brawl is drastically more popular the All-Brawl and is arguably even more different from the singles brawl that 99% of the competitive community knows and loves. Hosting 4 consecutive tourneys for brawl boarders on ridiculousness, so right away there IS an issue between no-rules brawl and the standard.
I've seen it happen on numerous occasions before: tournaments, especially those hosted by fighting game fans with 0 experience with smash, have switched and will switch to an items-on ruleset. AWA 14 adopted EVO's rules, I talked to the people who won the tournament, the consensus was that it was garbage. Although I doubt that all-brawl is getting anywhere, what with incredibly limited community support it has, I think it would be a nuisance to find anime convention tourneys and the like converted to a ruleset intended to cater to SF players looking for a "unique" fighting game.
The same can be said WITHIN the game as well: while items may seem to add depth, they always lower the efficiency of a vast number of options, and, in the case of the bomb and metaknight, drastically limit the players freedom. Think about it, think about all the possibilities that could happen:
A: the spawn cold have been a bomb, as it was. MK would have died if he touched it.
B: the spawn could have been a rigged stopwatch. If MK had cycloned higher, he would have slowed himself and ensured a death.
C: the spawn cold have been a non-rigged stopwatch. MK would have gotten an advantage
D: the spawn could have been a legendary pokeball, or a super mushroom, or an assist trophy, or any number of useful items. should metaknight have glided under the stage, he would have a large disadvantage when he gets back.
E: a poison mushroom could have spawned on the stage, making an onstage glide even more risky.
F: any of the above, except at a different time in the window.
G: any other number of scenerios that sakurai has dreamt up in his crazy head
As you can see, in order to "compensate for the randomness" the metaknight player has to live in constant fear of any of several threats, thanks to the items. His recovery game is partially shafted because any of literally dozens of scenerios could happen...and neither player has a say so in what item spawns. Even then, the metaknight could have gotten REWARDED for the EXACT SAME ACTION...and, had that actually happen, though I don't intend to put words in anyone in particular's mouth, I'm sure someone would argue that tornado-ing onto stage was the smarted option in that scenerio.
I've seen it happen on numerous occasions before: tournaments, especially those hosted by fighting game fans with 0 experience with smash, have switched and will switch to an items-on ruleset. AWA 14 adopted EVO's rules, I talked to the people who won the tournament, the consensus was that it was garbage. Although I doubt that all-brawl is getting anywhere, what with incredibly limited community support it has, I think it would be a nuisance to find anime convention tourneys and the like converted to a ruleset intended to cater to SF players looking for a "unique" fighting game.
The same can be said WITHIN the game as well: while items may seem to add depth, they always lower the efficiency of a vast number of options, and, in the case of the bomb and metaknight, drastically limit the players freedom. Think about it, think about all the possibilities that could happen:
A: the spawn cold have been a bomb, as it was. MK would have died if he touched it.
B: the spawn could have been a rigged stopwatch. If MK had cycloned higher, he would have slowed himself and ensured a death.
C: the spawn cold have been a non-rigged stopwatch. MK would have gotten an advantage
D: the spawn could have been a legendary pokeball, or a super mushroom, or an assist trophy, or any number of useful items. should metaknight have glided under the stage, he would have a large disadvantage when he gets back.
E: a poison mushroom could have spawned on the stage, making an onstage glide even more risky.
F: any of the above, except at a different time in the window.
G: any other number of scenerios that sakurai has dreamt up in his crazy head
As you can see, in order to "compensate for the randomness" the metaknight player has to live in constant fear of any of several threats, thanks to the items. His recovery game is partially shafted because any of literally dozens of scenerios could happen...and neither player has a say so in what item spawns. Even then, the metaknight could have gotten REWARDED for the EXACT SAME ACTION...and, had that actually happen, though I don't intend to put words in anyone in particular's mouth, I'm sure someone would argue that tornado-ing onto stage was the smarted option in that scenerio.
Cyntalan Maelstrom
Smash Ace
Aren't you stretching for jabs just a bit too much here? Evo can't run both formats. If they even pick ANY format (IE they may just say to hell with Brawl altogether), I'd much prefer them to run All-Brawl because frankly, it's primarily a scene for those who would prefer to play/watch the game in that mode (see the overall reactions to those who went/watched Evo 2k7 Melee vs. those who went/watched Evo 2k8 Brawl). If they had the space for both formats, I'd not give a ****. I'd enter both.
I only wondered if there COULD be space for two tournaments, and that you are one of the people supporting items > no items. I didn't mean to offend, and if you were offended, then I apologize.
I need to learn how to format my sentences correctly >_>
Cyntalan Maelstrom
Smash Ace
If they had the space for both formats, I'd be totally for it. I believe they should be on equal ground. Then again, I'm also in a similar yet somewhat contradictory belief that they shouldn't be treated as separate games, but rather "the rules for that day". Either that or a "final battle" of sorts, between the winner of All-Brawl and winner of SBR-Brawl (I'll stick with that term as that one's actually neutral sounding), in something akin to a world series style format: A set or two each way.
...or something. As long as we're all looking at this in a positive light, I don't see the typical hostility existing for long.
What happens if both tournaments have the same winner?
Cyntalan Maelstrom
Smash Ace
Prolly forego the idea at that point. Someone apparently dominated on both formats.
SwastikaPyle
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Oct 17, 2007
- Messages
- 811
Alright, we agree, EVO can't run both formats. So they have two choices: They're choice, or the fans.
That's all they really have to decide: Do they want to follow the fan's wishes or their own?
That's all they really have to decide: Do they want to follow the fan's wishes or their own?
Cyntalan Maelstrom
Smash Ace
Well, it's a choice between a greater majority of competitive Brawl fans' wishes vs. a minority of Brawl fans' that they seem to agree with.
Right now, Evo 2k9 is sounding like one of two choices at this point: Either the standard that's most played, or not at all in favor of another game. Short of the world flipping upside down and All-Brawl actually becoming the new standard, that standard would be SBR-Brawl. In either case, though, I'm not expecting it to return, honestly. Too many other new fighters are hitting us all at once. Most of the old games are making way for the new. There might just not be enough room this time around.
I've been gone for a day or two and am too lazy to read every single post that's been posted since then. I'll just say that that list you quoted is highly, um, not-intelligent. I'm not saying you're agreeing with it, I'm saying it's not-intelligent.
Just because there's a little luck in Competitive gaming does not mean we should throw in a manure-load more of it!
No, we seed. This is what seeding is for. The only "random" factor is if the player expected to win doesn't win, which isn't random, it's just a minor re-adjustment. Once a DE has been made, nothing about it is random. Each action has a reaction, each fork in the road leads to the same ending.
So? With items, there might be inaccuracies everywhere, not just the not-Top-5. The best player in the friggin' tournament might lose due to random BS in two sets. Yes, it can and will happen and it won't be pretty.
I'm sure there's a lot of high stakes Backgammon tournaments out there. Poker is not Smash. Poker is a different game. They allow tackling in hockey. Does that mean it should be allowed in chess? "You ate my queen! *tackles*". Do you know what Poker pros do? They try to eliminate randomness as much as possible by calculating the possible outcomes through high level math.
At any time in a poker game, any player can opt out if they believe the odds are stacked against them and they cannot win the hand. No one's going to go All-In with jack squat if they believe their opponent can beat them and won't be fooled by a bluff. You opt out and come back to fight another day. Now try pulling that in Competitive Smash. "Oh noes, you got a Smash Ball and took off one of my stocks with it! I drop out! Re-match!".
Yeah... right.
Magic the Gathering and other card-based games are random but Competitive players stack their decks to eliminate as much randomness as possible. Actual Magic the Gathering, Yu-Gi-Oh and Pokémon TCG players have actually come in Items Discussion Threads to dispell this illusion that card games are all about randomness.
Why do you put as many really powerful cards in your deck as possible (some of them more than once)? That's right, to eliminate randomness, to get higher odds of getting them instead of that inane monster with 5 HP or whatever.
When comparing Smash to other games, you should compare it to, oh, I don't know, other fighting games, not totally unrelated games. Just because something exists and is practiced doesn't mean we should emulate it. I mean, what would Smash look like if we amalgated it with rules from every single Competitive sports, game and whatever known to man?
You wanna compare Competitive Smash to totally unrelated Competitive games? Fine. American Football. At set intervalls (which fluctuate slightly) random items will spawn at one (determined randomly) of several predetermined spots on the field. You will never known which item will spawn (but there will be odds) and where it will spawn.
And by spawn, I mean dropped from the air above them by special Item Referees in hot air baloons.
At any given time, someone might lose that clear homerun due to a bana peel conveniently "spawning" right next to his foot. A small explosive devise (no permanent damage) might drop down on someone and incapaticate them. Heck, vials of performance enhancing drugs (Smash Balls) might falll next to you! Not to mention the Dragoon Ball which is really an extra football in a gatling gun which is pretty much a guaranteed homerun (it counts as long as it passes the fork-thingie) as long as you don't miss with it (and how can you? There's a sniper scope!).
Heck, there are even Assist Fans and Assist Pros (Pokéballs and Assist Trophies) who might at any given time "spawn" onto the field and help either side. All-Brawl American Football for the Superbowl!
Only they aren't so random and people try to limit the randomness as possible. If there was a way to limit it even more, you bet your tuchas they'd implement it!
No, it's that most Competitive games try to limit the amount of randomness as much as possible. Yes, it's an universal truth.
If a friggin' Bob-omb spawns over my head while I'm smashing someone, killing me but leaving my opponent scotch-free or at least not killing y opponent, thus winning him (or giving him a huge power boost) the match when I was clearly winning, then I'm gonna blame the game and the items!
No, there was no possible way for me to avoid it lest I be psychic... or live in constant fear of getting hit by randomly spawning explosives any time I'm not shielding. A game is not Competitive if you have to constantly be on the lookout for randomly spawning items that might kill you and constantly shield to avoid it.
Iwan
Smash Ace
Oh-me-oh-my.....I was recently checking out "All-Brawl" and the first thing that came to mind was "All-Fail".
I completely agree with every single point Yuna made. Every single one.
And yes, I just typed that.
I completely agree with every single point Yuna made. Every single one.
And yes, I just typed that.
unclemario
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Dec 10, 2007
- Messages
- 5
LOL.
you mean touchdown and field goal. homeruns happen in baseball.
hurray for the new pro sport: footsmashbaseball
ftl
Smash Journeyman
You know, that might be the one thing that could make me watch american football, if the players randomly exploded
Wafles
Smash Lord
Geist
Smash Master
WOW who said competiton poker was luck based up there?
"Beyond the randomness that Double Elimination gives you, look at games like Poker" -Animeko
The highest level poker is almost nothing about luck. It doesn't matter what is in your hand because you can bull**** everyone to think it's something else anyways. I've seen four of a kind lose to a pair of fives.
The whole point of competitive gaming is to get rid of as many random variables as possible. There are no absolute variables like items in competition.
"Beyond the randomness that Double Elimination gives you, look at games like Poker" -Animeko
The highest level poker is almost nothing about luck. It doesn't matter what is in your hand because you can bull**** everyone to think it's something else anyways. I've seen four of a kind lose to a pair of fives.
The whole point of competitive gaming is to get rid of as many random variables as possible. There are no absolute variables like items in competition.
kingofping4
Smash Cadet
No johns? A win is a win, a loss is a loss. It IS like poker in that if you don't think you can win in the current conditions, you don't play. The difference being that in poker you just play another hand, whereas in smash you play another tournament.
Anyone remember when the Cubs fan caught the foul ball instead of the player, and everyone was pissed? Well they didn't ban fans from coming to the games after that.
Anyone remember when the Cubs fan caught the foul ball instead of the player, and everyone was pissed? Well they didn't ban fans from coming to the games after that.
The fan catching the ball is not a random factor, therefore your comparison is somewhat useless.
powuh_of_PIE
Smash Journeyman
That may be fine and good for some people who live in areas where they have tourneys up the arse and can therefore pick and choose. But not everyone has that luxury and if All-Brawl starts to get more widely accepted and half the tourneys in an already-tourney-sparse area start running it, those players who object to the randomly spawning explosives (myself included) get even less tournament time. And like it or not, we're the majority. Is it worth it to alienate newcomers to the Brawl competitive scene by including things we already know upset the mechanics that allow the better player to win?
Cyntalan Maelstrom
Smash Ace
I don't see that doom scenario ever happening, unless it's somehow deemed that SBR-Brawl agreed to be junk by all, which in that case, it wouldn't really matter. I don't know of any All-Brawl tournies planning on being exclusive (save Evo if a miracle happens and All-Brawl fans become big enough to warrant their return over SBR-Brawl/some other game), they typically run 'em along side SBR-Brawl. No one is wanting to replace one or the other. As much as I may think it's the superior mode of play, I don't think it should replace formats. Not while it's still so overly hated on.
kingofping4
Smash Cadet
I'm pretty sure that it is a random factor though. Check out this analogy, complete with italics and parenthetical comparison to smash.
A fan (bob-omb) leans into the field of play (spawns) where a player is about to make a catch (land a smash), costing him an out (a stock).
The Cubs eventually lost the game, and everyone blamed the fan. They didn't ban fans from coming to games though, because the MLB realizes that fan interference/interaction like that rarely changes the outcome of the game. The better team will usually win, even if a fan costs them an out.
Now I'm not saying this is apples to apples. One out in baseball isn't the same significance as one stock in smash, but the comparison is still valid. From reading the link in the OP, SRK is making the same claim that MLB made in my example: namely that in the long run, fluke items will be balanced out by low spawn rates and 3/5 match series, and the better player will still usually win.
I, for one, think that this is worth looking into before everyone immediately dismisses it. I don't want to force this playstyle onto anyone, I just like the idea of adding more variety to the game.
Fans go for the ball out of ignorance of the ball's status, and the lack of a signs that warn not to do that.
Bom-ombs are generated by a random number generater. You can not educate a random number generater the negative effects of spawning a bomb-omb in front of your smash.
Also, banning fans from going to the game is like banning the use of Brawls that have items programmed in; it prevents luck without trying to preserve the non-luck elements. Turning items off is more like banning fans from catching balls on the field; which only eliminates the luck part while maintaining as much non-luck elements as possible.
Bom-ombs are generated by a random number generater. You can not educate a random number generater the negative effects of spawning a bomb-omb in front of your smash.
Also, banning fans from going to the game is like banning the use of Brawls that have items programmed in; it prevents luck without trying to preserve the non-luck elements. Turning items off is more like banning fans from catching balls on the field; which only eliminates the luck part while maintaining as much non-luck elements as possible.
Endless Nightmares
Smash Master
lmao All-Brawl is a joke. I can't believe this thread even exists.
And yes, I have participated in an All-Brawl tournament, run by Keits himself. I definitely regret doing so, no offense to Keits
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65Khbn0WNgo
>___>
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8PuYBlbNVw
>________> I made an error in this match but still.
And yes, I have participated in an All-Brawl tournament, run by Keits himself. I definitely regret doing so, no offense to Keits
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65Khbn0WNgo
>___>
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8PuYBlbNVw
>________> I made an error in this match but still.
kingofping4
Smash Cadet
This I did not know. My bad.
Anyways, I still think it's worth looking into. Someone play 100 matches with All-Brawl settings, and count the number of times an explosive spawning during an attack occurs. In fact, we should have like 5-10 people do this to get a good sample size. Don't count explosives that are clearly there that you just run into, only count the ones that spawn DURING an attack animation, making them 100% unavoidable. I bet the numbers are pretty low.
But like I said before, and I think I speak for the majority of the All-Brawl supporters on this, I'm not trying to force this playstyle onto anyone. All I want is to provide people with more options, and to have those options tested at a competitive level. While no items may be the majority right now, testing and having an open mind might change some opinions.
Let the new ideas be tested, and if they turn out to be as bad as you think they will you're free to say "I told you so." But at least let it be tried and evaluated, maybe even tweaked along the way, before everyone slams the door on it.
Endless Nightmares
Smash Master
the next is even more wow
DRaGZ
Smash Champion
You don't know **** about poker.
You can't just play another hand because there are BLINDS and ANTES. You pay to get a hand, and getting a hand is mandatory. Even if a tournament doesn't enforce antes, and a lot don't to be honest, then you still can't fold everything because the blinds became way too high way too quickly. If you just say there not doing anything, the people left will be in a position to afford the blinds while you'll be struggling to get that good hand so you can start affording the ante and then somehow trying to trick everyone that the hand you are playing is worse than their's because you've been playing tight the whole game (i.e. no one will play when you get in unless they've got a hand that'll **** yours). And then the blinds will kill you and you're dead.
In poker, every hand is much more like a positioning change in Brawl except that you have to work to understand what your opponent's positions relative to yours are. That's why placing in poker aren't nearly as consistent as other games: it's all about mental manipulation and understanding, which even the top pros can't consistently do for hours on end. This is why playing poker online sucks ***, btw.
Giving up a hand in poker is like giving up your position to get into a place of neutrality even though it cost you some health.
kingofping4
Smash Cadet
Watching the first one, I feel your pain. Watching the second, you just didn't play the match all the way out. You can't blame the items on that second one. That was a great fight, fun to watch, and from the sound of it fun to play in.
I don't mean this to be insulting at all, I'm just going to say that in the second match the better player won. He survived your barrage of bats and star rods, and came back to win it. It was a good fight on both sides, and he just kept going till the last second and was rewarded for it.
Trying to blame that on items is the john of a lifetime.
I don't mean this to be insulting at all, I'm just going to say that in the second match the better player won. He survived your barrage of bats and star rods, and came back to win it. It was a good fight on both sides, and he just kept going till the last second and was rewarded for it.
Trying to blame that on items is the john of a lifetime.
Endless Nightmares
Smash Master
I blamed something on items? *re-reads posts*
I don't think you were watching the same match >__>
You can't be serious
I don't think you were watching the same match >__>
You can't be serious
Where did he say he lost because of items?
DRaGZ
Smash Champion
He blamed it on the ******** level and the ******** sudden death.
ftl
Smash Journeyman
I think you're watching the wrong match; the second match he was referencing had neither bats nor star rods...
kingofping4
Smash Cadet
Yes, I understand antes and blinds. However, anytime/anywhere I've played poker, if you're not in the blind spot you still get your two cards and choose how to go from there. Those two cards tell you whether or not you want to play this hand, just like the rule set will tell you whether or not you want to play this smash tourney. I agree with you that poker and smash are not the same thing, but I do see little similarities like what I'm pointing out. Do the situations match up 100%? No, but they don't have to. They're just similarities.
The way I see it, both poker and smash come down to three things: predicting your opponent's move, "mindgames"/bluffing/whatever you call it, and the experience to make quick, possibly game-changing decisions. Now I'm not a pro at either game, but these three things are basically universal to all things competitive (except things that are judged by outside parties like gymnastics or figure skating, where mindgames are used differently or not at all).
So when a guy goes all in on the turn, and you know that there's only one possible hand and one possible river card that could beat what you already have, you call. He gets the card, you lose. Nothing you could do about it, you just have to accept it because it's called gambling.
So when you pay your tourney fee for a chance to take home the whole thing, you're gambling too. When that bob-omb spawns in your game-winning smash attack, just think of it like that long-shot river card that beat you in the poker example.
EDIT: When I watched the second link in his post, Marth v Marth on Elden Bridge, I saw nothing there to complain about. Since the topic of the moment seems to be items, I just guessed that was why he said it was "even more wow." What makes that a "wow" match then?
kingofping4
Smash Cadet
Double post, my apologies.
ftl
Smash Journeyman
Exactly. That's inextricable from the game of poker; of course, you still try to minimize the effect of luck by playing enough hands that the luck will average out. But you can't remove the random chance of somebody getting lucky from poker, because of the way the game is set up. Because it's fundamentally a gambling game.
You CAN, however, MOSTLY remove it from Smash, because it's not inherently a gambling game.
I think we're agreed. You want to gamble so you can go play all-brawl or poker, we want to play a competitive fighting game so we'll play SBR-brawl, where there aren't long-shot river cards.
You CAN, however, MOSTLY remove it from Smash, because it's not inherently a gambling game.
I think we're agreed. You want to gamble so you can go play all-brawl or poker, we want to play a competitive fighting game so we'll play SBR-brawl, where there aren't long-shot river cards.