Instant Return

[Llumys]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOUHNl8ZWz0

I haven't been playing at all recently, and I've just recently started to lurk again. I discovered this little trick a long time ago, and after sharing it, no one really seemed interested at all. I'm hoping that now there's more Olimar mains who appreciate little things like this, and if this manages to help anyone at all with their edge mix-ups, let me know; I'd really appreciate it.

 

[Asa]

wat

we all do this lol

 

[Zori]

i dont ;-;

/0 tech skill

 

[Llumys]

You do? Awesome!

I remember posting it over a year ago and no one said they used it. I was pretty stoked when I figured it out, because I hadn't seen anything like it in any videos at the time.

It's actually kind of tricky to pull off well; you have to start the tether immediately after letting go of the edge in order to swing right back to the edge that quickly. Don't feel bad, Zori.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Yeah, a lot of us do this, haha. Still give you credit, don't worry :D

 

[Cracker1204]

if you immediatly up b after letting go you will probably up b on the stage though..easier to wait first and then press up b to instant return.

 

[Llumys]

I'm just happy people are it!

And Cracker, advanced techniques aren't mean to be easy, they're meant to be useful.

 

[Cracker1204]

if you watch logic (he spams this move), you can see that you have to wait (drop like an inch from the edge) for the move to be consistent. you are probably not going to do this move constistent if you IMMEDIATLY up b. + the immediate version can be a bit slower (from the part where you initiate the up b) . but it's still more usefull with invincibility frames from the edge.


the way I use instant return is: drop from the edge (no fastfall), immediatly press your control stick to the stage and aim slitghly under sthe stage, then press up b and hold forward. this has a higher succes rate + it is very easy to use out of a double jump (if you are below the stage and want to get on the stage as quickly as possible)

also some cool thing you can do: I've seen people edgecamping like this: drop edge, uair, double jump uair, grab edge. If you figure out the coreect spacing after the second uair you can instant return after it instead of grabbing the edge.

instant return is really a sweet move xD like if you want to punish someone who is really close to the edge you are hanging on. you instant tether attack him xD and if is hes low percent you can followup quite nicely, you can even buffer jump out of instant tether to footstool or arial people (only with yellows)

also usefull if people are shielding near the edge and they dont expect the move lol.

thank god you discovered it


edit: when you buffer a jump out of instant return sometimes you buffer a single jump (which you can double jump after) and sometimes you buffer an immediate double jump, can someone figure out why that is...probably has something to to with the place you land.
when you buffer a double jump you can return to the edge and keep using tether (even if you have used it 3 stimes) this means the game thinks you have "connected" with the ground. however when you buffer a single jump out of instant return you can't keep tethering after you have used it 3 times...

also the single jump can be buffered if you TAP up even when tap jump is turned off (you can basicly buffer it with any button like A, B or even C stick). the double jump has to be buffered with X or Y (button jump).

double edit (kinda passionate today xD): seems like the single jump is some sort of bufferd edgejump...only possible if you are really close to the edge (so dont press forward all the way or else you will do the double jump). this also explains the tether loss if the game things you just did a ledgejump.

 

[Llumys]

Woo. I helped.

 

[Pogoshark]

Is there like an in depth guide for this, im having trouble understanding what to do...

 

[Cracker1204]

I'll make a vid of the stuff i said above xD

you can also let go of the edge when holding your controlstick slithgly upward, this way you can hit B the moment you release the edge and smash sthe stick towards the stage. or use circle.

@cloverfield, if you do an extended chain on the stage it doesnt mean you're doing it too quickly, it means you are holding towards the stage too soon.

 

[Sky Pirate]

There isn't really an in-depth guide for it because it's not necessary to make one.
The general idea is to tether in a way that forces you to go above the ledge and pushing toward the ledge to land onstage with no landing lag.

Instructions are available in Llumys' video in the OP.
It's one of our most difficult ATs, so you shouldn't expect to get it right-off.

Personally, I do a well-timed half-circle upward and toward the stage.
Like if you're on the left edge, you would do a 47896 and hit B around 8-9ish (depending on the rotation speed).

But everyone has their own ways of doing things, so there might be a method that you find easier.
If you do a normal tether, you're doing it too slowly.
And if you hop onstage with a fully-extended pikmin chain, you're doing it too quickly.

 

[Pogoshark]

Thanks for the tips, ill be sure to practice this a lot.

Are there any other ATs that would be really apply-able?

 

[Llumys]

If I remember correctly, what I input from the edge is the following:

1. 4
2. 7B
3. 6

I would essentially do an upward HCF with the analog, and it became pretty easy.

 

[Zori]

There isn't really an in-depth guide for it because it's not necessary to make one.
The general idea is to tether in a way that forces you to go above the ledge and pushing toward the ledge to land onstage with no landing lag.

Instructions are available in Llumys' video in the OP.
It's one of our most difficult ATs, so you shouldn't expect to get it right-off.

Personally, I do a well-timed half-circle upward and toward the stage.
Like if you're on the left edge, you would do a 47896 and hit B around 8-9ish (depending on the rotation speed).

But everyone has their own ways of doing things, so there might be a method that you find easier.
If you do a normal tether, you're doing it too slowly.
And if you hop onstage with a fully-extended pikmin chain, you're doing it too quickly.

now THIS helps me a lot

thank you clover

 

[Jiom]

^ I think I'm gonna start practicing it again and find situations where it can be really helpful.

 

[Llumys]

I still think hitting B at 7 works better than at 9, but I haven't played around with it in a long while.

 

[Dnyce]

I hit 1-5-9. I'm not saying it's better that way, but according to (Lux), who has played quite a few olimars, mine seems faster.

IMO, whatever works... do it, lol.

EDIT: It's definitely faster than what you see in yummy's vid. Dunno if it's the same for how clover mentioned, but you can also control how close you are to the edge based on how long you delay between 1-9, while staying within the window to actually do it.

 

[DeLux]

This technique is the bane of my existence. I can do it with Lucas more consistently than I can with Olimar. Which doesn't make any sense at all to me. I can't do it at all with T/Link, ZS/Samus. I have yet to try with Ivysaur because I don't play PT and if I random him I'm usually just happy to not get gimped to try anything fancy on the ledge.

 

[Llumys]

I'll try out the 1-5-9 whenever I get my copy of Brawl back. It sounds like it'd probably work better, actually.

Regarding other characters, I was almost certain this technique is specific to Olimar because of the extra little jump he gets when tethering.

 

[DeLux]

You can definitely do a version of it with Lucas. They call it Duster Sliding.

 

[Cracker1204]

you have to jump for dustersliding? and i suppose lucas mains also know zair (kinda) cancels your double jump mometum if you airdodge first right?

 

[Llumys]

I imagine you'd have to jump.

 

[DeLux]

True, but they are still similar in mechanics if I understand them correctly by land cancelling a tether into 0 landing lag.

 

[Llumys]

Yeah, yours is just a little more complex because of the extra input.

 

[Tin Man]

I haven't fully applied this in my gam. I messed around with it last week. Mine isn't terribly fast either, but i'm sure i'll get it over time.

 

[Cracker1204]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrN2_5InkOU

made the vid extra annoying with small letters and horrible music

 

[Dnyce]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrN2_5InkOU

made the vid extra annoying with small letters and horrible music

Interesting, I'll test this stuff out later.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Very nice video, didn't know that double jumping out of an instant return grants you unlimited tethers. Thanks for the effort put in making the video.

 

[Dnyce]

Very nice video, didn't know that double jumping out of an instant return grants you unlimited tethers. Thanks for the effort put in making the video.

I always assumed the the double jump functioned like a SJR. That would assume that he "touched" the stage, but you get your second jump back from grabbing the ledge. Thus, my current explanation isn't too great. lol. I have four tests next week, but like I said... I hope to test this sometime soon

 

[Tin Man]

I wonder if I'll ever use instant return frequently in my game lol.

 

[Llumys]

Ha. The plank return is awesome!

 

[Dnyce]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrN2_5InkOU

made the vid extra annoying with small letters and horrible music

In terms of the jumping out of instant return mechanics, you seem to be confused. If you input jump (or 'buffer' one) before you land on stage you perform a second jump renewal; however, since you haven't technically landed on stage you do not get infinite tethers. Also, you can only do a ledge jump from the ledge, not from a tether. Closeness to the ledge is completely irrelevant. The difference between the two is dependent on when you input jump. If you input before you land, you SJR; however, in you input during landing lag then you will use your first jump. I haven't tested whether or not you could short hop, but it seemed that I full hopped every time. Doing this technically has you landing on stage, thus you get 'infinite' tethers. I don't recall exactly, but it appeared that you not only canceled the landing lag from instant return, but you cancel the jump squat animation as well (frame perfectly speaking, you're shaving 8 frames) which I think is pretty cool. I don't have time to play around with it right now though =/


I think I will enjoy incorporating plank instant SJR return to fair/uair... Haawwwttt

 

[Cracker1204]

maybe you didn't really understand what i was saying with "infinite" tethers, you can check the vid again and watch the background vid. you can see that i use the double jump return 4 times without "touching" the stage, this means your up b is renewd every time you do it, pretty useless still.

also no, you cant short hop because you also cant full hop, you need to watch your feet when you do the "full hop" and you will see a cloud appear, this is the same cloud that you get from a ledge jump. also if you watch the vid again during my explanation of ledge jump (the background glitches so its hard too see), you can see that you can only do the ledge jump return 3 times, if you try to do it more times it will fail. this is pretty much proof that you are doing some sort of weird ledge jump out of your instant return, other explanations don't make sense.

if you think I'm wrong please tell me what you see at 1:12, i clearly do a instant return into ledge jump buffer .. something. if you have an other opinion on it im open for it though. you can see it again at 1:21, the reason you can't see the cloud the other times is because I'm using an arial at that time (because when the cloud appears you can already "cancel it" into an attack just liek with a ledgejump). also listen to the sound that you make when you jump, really there's no way it's something else than a ledgejump.

you could be right about the different timing between double and ledgejump, it really was a mystery to me so i thought it had something to do with spacing.

 

[Denti]

it helps with life

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Oh wow, I wasn't aware that Olimar could also do this.

I wonder if there are more characters with something like this.

TO FRAME ADVANCE.

 

[Dnyce]

maybe you didn't really understand what i was saying with "infinite" tethers, you can check the vid again and watch the background vid. you can see that i use the double jump return 4 times without "touching" the stage, this means your up b is renewd every time you do it, pretty useless still.

also no, you cant short hop because you also cant full hop, you need to watch your feet when you do the "full hop" and you will see a cloud appear, this is the same cloud that you get from a ledge jump. also if you watch the vid again during my explanation of ledge jump (the background glitches so its hard too see), you can see that you can only do the ledge jump return 3 times, if you try to do it more times it will fail. this is pretty much proof that you are doing some sort of weird ledge jump out of your instant return, other explanations don't make sense.

if you think I'm wrong please tell me what you see at 1:12, i clearly do a instant return into ledge jump buffer .. something. if you have an other opinion on it im open for it though. you can see it again at 1:21, the reason you can't see the cloud the other times is because I'm using an arial at that time (because when the cloud appears you can already "cancel it" into an attack just liek with a ledgejump). also listen to the sound that you make when you jump, really there's no way it's something else than a ledgejump.

you could be right about the different timing between double and ledgejump, it really was a mystery to me so i thought it had something to do with spacing.

Well, after going back into frame advance, I realize it had that gay 'input attack when you hit Z' bug; however, I can explain the mechanics of both now.

If it were a ledge jump, it would begin with intangibility and you would be unable to attack for 16-18 frames (I forget how long exactly). It seems when your attempt to snap back to the ledge gets interrupted (the exception being a landing) you're put into the end of the ledge-hop animation (looks like a hand stand), yet still able to attack earlier than you would from standard ledge-hop. It would be like Olimar's fsmash appearing at max range on frame one... it's like a completely different move, lol.

A lot of my post earlier was inaccurate because frame advance is glitchy. TL;DR it seems the only way to do this is interrupt your tether snap. I'm still trying to figure out what is causing the two-jumps + regain tethers thing.

 

[Cracker1204]

so you agree its a ledge jump then (without the startup at the beginning)? ofcourse it's gonna skip the first part of the ledge jump because you are not on the ledge...i thought that was pretty clear.

the thing with the double jump is, you can also do it when you do this really "high" instant return and jump out of it. like you are jumping out of it 2 meters above the stage. so if your tether is connected to the edge and you are above the stage you can always jump out of it no matter how high you are above the stage.

E: when you double jump into a "ledge jump return"(lets say you want to do plank to ledge jump return) the game doesn't allow you to do your double jump after it. this means it has recognized you haven't touched the stage, thats why you cant double jump after the ledgejump return if you have used a double jump before it (and haven't grabbed the ledge.)

 

[Dnyce]

so you agree its a ledge jump then (without the startup at the beginning)? ofcourse it's gonna skip the first part of the ledge jump because you are not on the ledge...i thought that was pretty clear.

the thing with the double jump is, you can also do it when you do this really "high" instant return and jump out of it. like you are jumping out of it 2 meters above the stage. so if your tether is connected to the edge and you are above the stage you can always jump out of it no matter how high you are above the stage.

E: when you double jump into a "ledge jump return"(lets say you want to do plank to ledge jump return) the game doesn't allow you to do your double jump after it. this means it has recognized you haven't touched the stage, thats why you cant double jump after the ledgejump return if you have used a double jump before it (and haven't grabbed the ledge.)

A ledge-hop still has intangibility frames on the animation of the jump from the instant return and a few afterward as well. Also, all of your horizontal momentum turns into vertical momentum.

I don't understand what you're talking about when you say "really high" part, nor being unable to use second jump after the 'ledge-hop' return... if it's a ledge-hop as you claim, then your second jump should be restored.

 

[Cracker1204]

ugh, ofcourse it's not a "true" ledge jump, why can't you accept you are doing a form of ledge jump without being on the edge, the reason your second jump isnt restored is because you aren't doing a real ledgejump, you are doing a weird form of ledge jump where you have NOT touched the stage. the only thing you did was double jump => tether => jump out of it, so it isnt really weird your second jump is not being restored.

if you can't agree it's a form of ledgejump then tell me why you see the "cloud" and the same animation of ledge jump. the reason the 2 are different is because you are not supposed to do some weird-*** ledgejump while not on the ledge.

i don't know how to explain the "high" part so...