Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[X WaNtEd X]

i think ian has a point, though. sure, everyone could brush up on thes things. but i think the general style and manner in which most ganons approach the neutral is underdeveloped. it has to be more than a coincidence that very few are making it with ganon.

 

[Divinokage]

i think ian has a point, though. sure, everyone could brush up on thes things. but i think the general style and manner in which most ganons approach the neutral is underdeveloped. it has to be more than a coincidence that very few are making it with ganon.

Naturally everyone will be underdeveloped because playing perfectly is not possible, there's bound to be some errors here and there. All you can do is your best in the moment with what you've practiced.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

We could theoretically play extremely ****ing lame and campy, that might help us get some good wins. I mean, if it really comes down to that kind of playstyle that we need (in neutral) in order to be successful at a high level, then that might be what we need to do. Ledge mix-ups will be huge in the future. We're gonna wanna always abuse that ledge as much as possible until our opponent starts respecting us there.

I think we just need to do more safe, late, and retreating aerials in neutral. That way it gets really hard to get in on people and they don't wanna get hit, provoking them into your shield and you can do all sorts of mixups in that scenario. I definitely feel like Chain-Grabbing has to be more implemented, and we have to concentrate on getting our opponent off the stage and getting them into an edgeguard. Being patient on the edgeguards is huge too. It really blows when you jump the gun a little too early.

 

[n0ne]

n0ne, if you could get the other falcons to also not uthrow > knee us, that'd be great. Lol.

I agree with Ian to an extent, but saying we're playing incorrectly is a stretch when basically everyone's fundamentals could get leagues better. There are still too many dropped edgeguards, a general lack of chaingrabbing, people going for extra damage instead of getting their opponent offstage, random bthrow/fthrows when dthrow would be best, shield DI is underused, combo DI hasn't been perfected, etc. I see lots of matches where a Ganon player barely loses, and it's not because his decision making or neutral game was insanely lacking, they just made mistakes like the ones I listed above. Had they not, they would have won. It's time that we started focusing on efficiency.

With edgeguarding, people usually just commit to something too soon, and create safe options for their opponent without realizing it. Proper edgeguarding in an art.

i approach with ganondorf a bit differently imo.

Lol yea ill talk to all of em
U guys should watch my sets vs kage for example, im sure u can notice it there.

Fair is just too slow to approach with it. All falcons moves are just too fast, especially his nair; this move is the primary move that starts all the **** on dorf. Pivot bairs out of dashdances/wavedashes and out of jabs are a must i feel in order to beat falcon

Tomahawks to waveland back>ftilt are really good, as is tomahawk to waveland front turnaround grab as well.

Knowing when to jab on his shield, and mixing it up with a direct grab without jabbing is very important too

 

[RedmanSSBM]

“Ganondorf is the most overrated character in the game and is for sure a low tier. He just sucks. He has no movement speed, slow attack start-up, aside from a few moves, and also lots of end lag on his moves. This is one of the worst combinations to have, because it means you have several punish windows on him at all times (whiff punishing, abusing his awful movement and stuffing moves during their startup animation). He has zero options against dash dancing, one of the most dominant techniques in high level Melee, which makes him totally unviable and he also gets shut down by needle camping and Falco’s lasers. He is bad at dealing with shields, awful at escaping juggles and is an awful combo weight, and has a really crappy recovery and no out of shield options on top of that. He has one of the worst grabs in the game, making his godlike downthrow moot, and his punish game on characters that he can’t chaingrab sucks, because he has to make reads instead of punishing on reaction, like good characters do.” - Jolteon

Well ****, that hurt to read

 

[why]

IMO- While Ganon isn't as good as fox or sheik, he also isn't as bad as that description makes it seem. He has a terrific punish ganes and good edgeguarding, and a few other good qualities. His speed and lag don't outweigh the benefits from these qualities to make him a bottom tier character.

I do feel that Ganon's metagame can still improve to deal with these bad matchups, it's just going to take some work.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

“Ganondorf is the most overrated character in the game and is for sure a low tier. He just sucks. He has no movement speed, slow attack start-up, aside from a few moves, and also lots of end lag on his moves. This is one of the worst combinations to have, because it means you have several punish windows on him at all times (whiff punishing, abusing his awful movement and stuffing moves during their startup animation). He has zero options against dash dancing, one of the most dominant techniques in high level Melee, which makes him totally unviable and he also gets shut down by needle camping and Falco’s lasers. He is bad at dealing with shields, awful at escaping juggles and is an awful combo weight, and has a really crappy recovery and no out of shield options on top of that. He has one of the worst grabs in the game, making his godlike downthrow moot, and his punish game on characters that he can’t chaingrab sucks, because he has to make reads instead of punishing on reaction, like good characters do.” - Jolteon

Well ****, that hurt to read

So who's going to challenge Jolteon at the 2016 Apex Salty Suite?

 

[-ACE-]

Falcons nair can often be beaten. ASDI/cc jabs need to be more common in the metagame imo.

 

[Orah]

As far as tech chasing with side-b, I know it's usually not the best option because it can be CC'ed. I was just wondering at what % are the top 8 unable to CC side b. Of course if that % is incredibly high it's not even worth trying to side-b because you won't be able to consistently follow it up.
Lately I've been improving a lot of my movement options so the next step is get tech chasing and follow ups down to muscle memory.
@spider_sense got me thinking how I should use ledgedash into a Oos instant up-air.
I think everyone should practice the Light Power Shield because you can easily do it out of a waveland or a ledgedash and that just hammers on more of the point that Ganonites have to take full advantage of our ledge options.
Camp on the ledge, ambush, punish, punish, punish, edge-guard, retreat, repeat.

 

[Zigludo]

You can't cc during your tech roll animation, can you? Or am I really dumb and you actually can?

According to the tech-chase thread you can cover 3 options from midstage with sideB if you space and time it perfectly, which is better than any of Ganon's other option coverage on the open field. I'll do some testing to find out cc % ranges today

 

[PseudoTurtle]

LOL I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that that jolteon dude has lost to one too many ganons... and is salty.

For real though, shield DI is amazing and really, really hard to do. The other day, I fooled around a lot with shield DI in vs. falco, so I could get the bair. Too bad my reaction time sucks, so I have to base which way to DI on spacing rather than reaction.

**** around with it though, guys. It took me too long to finally start trying to apply it. Free bairs vs. falco.

 

[-ACE-]

Yeah pretty sure everyone here wouldn't mind MM'ing jolteon LOL. salty suite material for sure

It's 3 years old but the only match of jolteon vs Ganon on YouTube he loses. As sheik. Lol.

http://youtu.be/k9HGdPXIFjY

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

the ganondorfs vs jolteon.

fuzzy playing ganondorf? wtfffff

"LEARN THE CHARACTER YOU SCRUB" lmaoooo

 

[Zigludo]

So, after some much-needed reading and refreshing my memory, I learned/remembered that crouch-canceling actually has two components that both contribute to its usefulness as a defensive technique. Since this is going to be a conversation about the usefulness of a move (ganon sideB) vs crouch canceling, it's a good idea to go over them thoroughly, just so everyone knows what they're talking about.

a) While you're crouching, you suffer from less hitstun and knockback when attacked. (I've read that it's 2/3 reductions, but I would take that with a grain of salt because I haven't seen the math that backs it up.) If you are hit while crouching, attacks will not send you as far, and you will not be in hitstun for as long. It's just a weird interaction coded into the game, I guess Sakurai thinks crouching should make you not fly as far when you get punched.

...AND

b) If you're holding down on the control stick when you exit the hitlag of an attack, you actually ASDI your character downwards, collide with the ground, and initiate a landing animation.

To explain b) further:

There are two types of hitstun animations. I don't know the official terms for them, but one makes your character just flinch (think of Fox's fthrow at 0%, or any jab) and the other makes your character tumble around and when you hit the ground you'll be able to tech. If the attack had enough knockback (AFTER crouch canceling reduction) to put the opponent into the tumbling hitstun animation, then ASDI into the ground will result in a groundbounce animation which can be teched. If the attack did not have enough knockback to put the opponent into tumble, and it puts them into the flinch animation instead, they will immediately land on the ground once hitlag is over and initiate their normal landing animation. In Captain Falcon's case, this animation is 4 frames long. Then he can take any action he wants, while you're still stuck in your attack animation.

So, when an opponent crouch cancels your attack, there are three possible outcomes:

1) the knockback IS NOT enough to put your opponent into tumble, he ASDIs into the ground, lands normally, and punishes you with whatever he wants.
2) the knockback IS enough to put your opponent into tumble, he ASDIs into the ground, and has a (difficult) tech opportunity. he can miss tech, or tech left/right/ in place normally.
3) the knockback IS enough to put your opponent into tumble, and is also enough to prevent his attempt to ASDI into the ground. he suffers knockback and hitstun and gets sent flying, but not as far as he would have if he didn't crouch. at this point, since it's just knockback reduction and doesn't let you act significantly earlier, it's not really a 'crouch cancel' any more.

Anyways, now that that's out of the way, let's look at some data for sideB vs Falcon.

Bad news...

If you try to sideB from neutral, he can get the best crouch cancel from 0-35%.

He can cc+asdi into the ground for a ground bounce from 36% until 86%. If he's a god, this means he can also tech it.

However, since the original question was about tech-chasing, THIS is the most relevant image. ^^^^

First things first: Even if he holds down during his tech roll, he can't really "crouch cancel", because he can't enter the crouch animation to reduce knockback and hitstun. However, his ASDI will let him ground bounce until 26%. Still works at 25%, so if you start a stock with stomp > sideB techchase he'll be at 22% when the sideB connects and he'll be able to ground bounce, and tech if he's a god.

(My methodology got a little bit weird at this point because I was trying to put Cfalc in a situation where he could be holding down while getting hit, but NOT be crouching. That meant knocking him down first, and the easiest way to do that was with another sideB so I just put his % at 17 below whatever % I was testing. If the opponent is standing and inputs down BEFORE being hit, then he gains the benefits of crouch canceling, and if he inputs down DURING HITLAG, he actually gets an extra frame of SDI and can ground bounce for a couple extra %. The situation that I'm trying to test is one where your opponent is holding down on the stick while being techchased, ie during his missed tech or tech roll animation. Rest assured, thanks to the 20xx hackpack this test results in accurate %s for an unstaled sideB. I redid it like thirty times until I figured out what was going on lol)

I'll come back when I've got numbers for all of top8. In general, I don't really like sideB as much as dair- worse hitstun:knockback ratio for combos (dair is a meteor and thus has 80% knockback against grounded opponents while retaining 100% hitstun), more susceptible to crouch cancel (meteors can't be ASDI'd into the ground). BUT, if you got really good at techchasing with sideB you could make it a really powerful tool since it's Ganondorf's only way to cover 3/4 options at midstage.

...this post ended up being WAY TOO LONG LMAO, I spent more time talking about how crouch cancel works than I spent on actually talking about Orah's question. anyway,the final numbers are

Crouch Cancel normal landing: 0-35%
CC Ground bounce: 36%-86%
ASDI only (tech chase) ground bounce: 0-25%

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Yeah pretty sure everyone here wouldn't mind MM'ing jolteon LOL. salty suite material for sure

It's 3 years old but the only match of jolteon vs Ganon on YouTube he loses. As sheik. Lol.

http://youtu.be/k9HGdPXIFjY

Dude. That guy was even more of a scrub than I was 3 years ago hahaha. Shoutouts to Fuzzyness for counterpicking ganon vs sheik though! That's a ballsy move.

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

Yeah pretty sure everyone here wouldn't mind MM'ing jolteon LOL. salty suite material for sure

It's 3 years old but the only match of jolteon vs Ganon on YouTube he loses. As sheik. Lol.

http://youtu.be/k9HGdPXIFjY

The commentators were also some Ganon haters

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

n0ne, if you could get the other falcons to also not uthrow > knee us, that'd be great. Lol.

I agree with Ian to an extent, but saying we're playing incorrectly is a stretch when basically everyone's fundamentals could get leagues better. There are still too many dropped edgeguards, a general lack of chaingrabbing, people going for extra damage instead of getting their opponent offstage, random bthrow/fthrows when dthrow would be best, shield DI is underused, combo DI hasn't been perfected, etc. I see lots of matches where a Ganon player barely loses, and it's not because his decision making or neutral game was insanely lacking, they just made mistakes like the ones I listed above. Had they not, they would have won. It's time that we started focusing on efficiency.

With edgeguarding, people usually just commit to something too soon, and create safe options for their opponent without realizing it. Proper edgeguarding in an art.

how should shield DI and combo DI be practiced?

 

[Zigludo]

Finished gathering the data, it actually took less than 20 minutes to do the next 7 characters once I had my methods figured out lol. It took me five times as long to do the research for and write that earlier post lmao.



Fox
CC NL: 0-28%
CC GB: 29-76%
ASDI GB: 0-22%

Falco
CC NL: 0-29%
CC GB: 30-76%
ASDI GB: 0-21%

Sheik
CC NL: 0-32%
CC GB: 33-78%
ASDI GB: 0-21%

Marth
CC NL:0-31%
CC GB:32-75%
ASDI GB:0-20%

Puff
CC NL:0-24%
CC GB:25-61%
ASDI GB:0-14%

Peach:
CC NL:0-32%
CC GB:0-76%
ASDI GB:0-20%

Falcon:
CC NL:0-35%
CC GB:36-86%
ASDI GB:0-25%

Ice Climbers:
CC NL:0-31%
CC GB:0-76%
ASDI GB:0-20%

For tech chases, assuming you hit your opponent during the tech or missed tech animation, only the raw ASDI number matters, since they can't crouch during their tech roll. In more practical terms, that means that your sideB tech-chase is guaranteed to pop up your opponent during his tech roll at the following percentages:

Fox: 23%
Falco: 22%
Sheik: 22%
Marth: 21%
Puff: 15%
Peach: 21%
Falcon: 26%
ICs: 21%

As for the actual follows you can get at those percentages: I dunno lol. Against floaties, you won't be able to get any punishes after around 30-35%, and against fastfallers your options are great if they DI out, decent with neutral/downwards DI, and awful/extremely limited if they DI in, over your head. You can pick up an ftilt against all of the fastfallers at these %s, though, regardless of their DI. Worth experimenting with if you plan to implement sideB into your techchases, IMO

 

[-ACE-]

Bookmarking this page.

Awesome @ Zigludo I owe you some beer.

 

[-ACE-]

how should shield DI and combo DI be practiced?

Shield DI, have a friend attack you in certain ways and experiment. You'll see the distance shield ASDI moves your character vs SASDI+SSDI. Try to get shield grabs when your opponent is spaced well, and more OOS options when someone aerials you and isn't spaced well (or shieldgrab if possible and you're facing him).

Combo DI, same thing but ask questions first. ASDI kills knockback the most when it's perpendicular to the kb's trajectory. Everyone knows that but things are more intricate now. With survival DI, you have to aim for the corner of the screen, since that's the farthest distance you cab travel and still live. With combo DI, you want to make followup hits impossible while still not giving them an easy edgeguard opportunity.

 

[tm]

Guys, when any of you first started out, how long were you guys getting bopped, before you started to get really good?

Still not very good. almost 3 years now.

n0ne, if you could get the other falcons to also not uthrow > knee us, that'd be great.

lol. Pretty sure that 80+% of my getting killed by falcon is from getting grabbed. Too bad the best grab counter is punishable by grab.

“Ganondorf is the most overrated character in the game and is for sure a low tier. He just sucks. He has no movement speed, slow attack start-up, aside from a few moves, and also lots of end lag on his moves. This is one of the worst combinations to have, because it means you have several punish windows on him at all times (whiff punishing, abusing his awful movement and stuffing moves during their startup animation). He has zero options against dash dancing, one of the most dominant techniques in high level Melee, which makes him totally unviable and he also gets shut down by needle camping and Falco’s lasers. He is bad at dealing with shields, awful at escaping juggles and is an awful combo weight, and has a really crappy recovery and no out of shield options on top of that. He has one of the worst grabs in the game, making his godlike downthrow moot, and his punish game on characters that he can’t chaingrab sucks, because he has to make reads instead of punishing on reaction, like good characters do.” - Jolteon

Well ****, that hurt to read

I mean, I hope we all knew these things already. Ganondorf was Ganondorf as soon as the game was released, doesn't matter how good or bad he is, or how good or bad we think he is. We don't get bonus points if he's bad, and things won't get easier if he's better than we think. What matters is what you do with him.

There are two types of hitstun animations. I don't know the official terms for them, but one makes your character just flinch (think of Fox's fthrow at 0%, or any jab) and the other makes your character tumble around and when you hit the ground you'll be able to tech. If the attack had enough knockback (AFTER crouch canceling reduction) to put the opponent into the tumbling hitstun animation, then ASDI into the ground will result in a groundbounce animation which can be teched. If the attack did not have enough knockback to put the opponent into tumble, and it puts them into the flinch animation instead, they will immediately land on the ground once hitlag is over and initiate their normal landing animation. In Captain Falcon's case, this animation is 4 frames long. Then he can take any action he wants, while you're still stuck in your attack animation.

So, when an opponent crouch cancels your attack, there are three possible outcomes:

1) the knockback IS NOT enough to put your opponent into tumble, he ASDIs into the ground, lands normally, and punishes you with whatever he wants.
2) the knockback IS enough to put your opponent into tumble, he ASDIs into the ground, and has a (difficult) tech opportunity. he can miss tech, or tech left/right/ in place normally.
3) the knockback IS enough to put your opponent into tumble, and is also enough to prevent his attempt to ASDI into the ground. he suffers knockback and hitstun and gets sent flying, but not as far as he would have if he didn't crouch. at this point, since it's just knockback reduction and doesn't let you act significantly earlier, it's not really a 'crouch cancel' any more.

Good post. this info is stuff that people really need to learn. You can't know all your options if you don't know how the game works, and I'm guessing most players don't actually understand this mechanic.

Still don't love sideB that much vs fastfallers. If you guess the wrong direction vs fox or falcon, they can get a shine / usmash or grab / aerial on you, which really sucks. Also it's very difficult to catch falco's and falcon's forward tech rolls with sideB. You basically have to be inside them before starting the move, and a lot of the time you don't actually have enough time to set it up after a dthrow.

 

[-ACE-]

Crouch canceling is comprised of 2 elements.

1. Crouching itself reduces hitlag by 50%

2. Holding down buffers ASDI down to keep you grounded.

Holding C-down gives you the ASDI down but not the reduction in hitlag, so it is not the same as a CC.

5 years ago. Evidently we need more threads laying everything out.

 

[Coastward]

Still not very good. almost 3 years now.

lol. Pretty sure that 80+% of my getting killed by falcon is from getting grabbed. Too bad the best grab counter is punishable by grab.

I mean, I hope we all knew these things already. Ganondorf was Ganondorf as soon as the game was released, doesn't matter how good or bad he is, or how good or bad we think he is. We don't get bonus points if he's bad, and things won't get easier if he's better than we think. What matters is what you do with him.

Good post. this info is stuff that people really need to learn. You can't know all your options if you don't know how the game works, and I'm guessing most players don't actually understand this mechanic.

Still don't love sideB that much vs fastfallers. If you guess the wrong direction vs fox or falcon, they can get a shine / usmash or grab / aerial on you, which really sucks. Also it's very difficult to catch falco's and falcon's forward tech rolls with sideB. You basically have to be inside them before starting the move, and a lot of the time you don't actually have enough time to set it up after a dthrow.

yo good **** making it on to your PR. probably gonna be coming back down to MI for sweet XXI.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

@ Zigludo Excellent data crunch. Love seeing that. I already did some knockdown data on the Fast fallers in a thread I made last year, but you out did me (in terms of using side-b) by taking the next step and doing it for the top 8 characters.

Something to note about teching the side-b if you ASDI down, you are actually able to consistently tech it if you press L or R 20 frames before hitstun gets applied, as you have a tech buffer window, so it's not as "god-like" as you think it is.

Though with the data you provided, I feel like using side-b to cover missed-tech, tech in place, and tech away from more than just a down-throw is now viable as long as it's above those percents. Meaning if I down-throw jab a spacie and he techs away, I might be able to follow up with a side-b, for sure if he techs away to the edge and the edge stops him. Gotta be careful with that though cause if you miss and you're too close to the edge, you're dead. You have to get pretty damn close to cover tech-away with side-b, but that's where a well-timed and well-spaced down-b can come in real handy, especially when your opponent insists on teching away to the ledge.

I like using side-b too in general because it pops them in the air (at least vs fox, falco, marth, falcon, and sheik in some scenarios) and behind you, so if you get the side-b to send them off stage you can just straight fair them, or if it sends them to the middle of the stage, you can probably get in an upair and maybe squeeze in a fair at the end. Ganon's juggling potential is really good.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

i love tm.

 

[-ACE-]

i love tm.

I knew this time would come for you.

 

[Zigludo]

5 years ago. Evidently we need more threads laying everything out.

haha yeah, it's been common knowledge for probably almost a decade but I don't think it hurts to have a refresher course every once in a while.

@ Zigludo Excellent data crunch. Love seeing that. I already did some knockdown data on the Fast fallers in a thread I made last year, but you out did me (in terms of using side-b) by taking the next step and doing it for the top 8 characters.

Something to note about teching the side-b if you ASDI down, you are actually able to consistently tech it if you press L or R 20 frames before hitstun gets applied, as you have a tech buffer window, so it's not as "god-like" as you think it is.

Really? I thought you couldn't input the tech until hitlag. That would still be 7 frames for sideB, so it's not really 'godlike' lol, but it would still take some presence of mind

 

[Divinokage]

LOL I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that that jolteon dude has lost to one too many ganons... and is salty.

For real though, shield DI is amazing and really, really hard to do. The other day, I fooled around a lot with shield DI in vs. falco, so I could get the bair. Too bad my reaction time sucks, so I have to base which way to DI on spacing rather than reaction.

**** around with it though, guys. It took me too long to finally start trying to apply it. Free bairs vs. falco.

Umm.. it's just as hard as mastering regular DI. If you know you'll get hit on your shield then start pressing directions on your joystick, hehe. It becomes muscle memory after a while and what Ace said about Falcon, CC and DI down all day.. also PS Falcon's nair is awesome. You can also shield the first hit and DI the 2nd one to punish if Falcon does it incorrectly.

And despite all Ganon's weakness, he still kills you with 2-3 reads so.. Mastering the techchasing should bring you far already. =P

 

[Coastward]

**** you jolteon lol

 

[Divinokage]

Well Melee is a fighting game it's not a one man's game. If you say that everyone is playing Ganon wrong then you would be wrong because the other guy can adapt to your strategy. You are stuck in your own mind and same as your opponent which means that decisions will be made and will be countered. It just so happens that Ganon's options are easily counter-able because most of his moves have big start up and have big ending lag. So a lot of the times you have to read what the other is doing preemptively since you don't have the luxury of getting some free shield pressure. So ya there will always be a factor where you will be tricked into doing something dumb, the hardest part is being able to be on top of what's going on at all times. It requires so much focus and also you can't remain stuck in your own plans or ideas. Being self-centered gets you killed because you will not be paying attention to what's going on the screen. A lot of the times you have to step away of your own dilemma or pressure in order to observe and analyse the situation properly.

Edit: The only thing you really need before all that is believing you can win. If you do then you can form strats as it goes along a lot easier. You won't get stuck in your head by fearing a loss for example.

 

[Linguini]

I would say ganons worst matchups are sheik, fox, and falcon.

Sheik for obvious reasons.

Fox has ridiculous edgeguards on ganon and guaranteed shine combo's...amongst other things.

Falcon also has a plethora of guaranteed setups out of grabs and nairs that are pretty unfair lol. I always thought this matchup was fun but it's def amongst ganons poorer matchups. While dashdancing into pivot bairs are pretty good, you also have to learn how to neutralize his sh nairs approaches with offense. Sh uair that, once you bait him in. Scoops him right up if you space it right.

 

[Divinokage]

I would say ganons worst matchups are sheik, fox, and falcon.

Sheik for obvious reasons.

Fox has ridiculous edgeguards on ganon and guaranteed shine combo's...amongst other things.

Falcon also has a plethora of guaranteed setups out of grabs and nairs that are pretty unfair lol. I always thought this matchup was fun but it's def amongst ganons poorer matchups. While dashdancing into pivot bairs are pretty good, you also have to learn how to neutralize his sh nairs approaches with offense. Sh uair that, once you bait him in. Scoops him right up if you space it right.

Interesting that you bring up Falcon now too, I really feel like he's just a bit harder than spacies due to the fact that avoiding spacies combos is a lot easier than trying to avoid Falcon combos which is next to impossible once you get picked up. I really tried a lot of different DIs and you still die because Ganon is fat as ****. A good Falcon kills you in one combo.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

I think falco combos ganon harder than falcon, though that could just be at the mid level because most of you here seem to disagree.

Whenever I get touched by falco, I end up dying. In my experience, falcon combos are really hard to get out of and usually end in an edge guard, but avoiding getting hit is much easier because of crouch cancel, among other things.

Besides, ganon combos falcon pretty hard too. And edge guards are easy as hell. And what linguini said: sh up air can turn around that nair pressure really quick.

My question is: how do you DI out of the pillar combos? @ -ACE- has mentioned DI'ing in, but tipman says out, and I try either and end up dying anyway.

Should I incorporate monster smash DI or what?

 

[X WaNtEd X]

So I just got back from Europe. Great trip. I got to play with Fab and Amsah. I learned a lot about Ganon in doubles.

I had a lot of trouble adjusting to Ganon in PAL. I like to finish combos off the fair and it's just so weird having to adjust to using bair instead. It doesn't feel right lol. Also the European people found it hilarious that I refused to meteor cancel Marth's dair because it kills you in NTSC.

 

[Vierte]

Here is the the twitch vod of my game vs renth. First game on stream and I know I have a lot to work on but any advice would be appreciated!

http://www.twitch.tv/gatorgaming/b/639417280?t=42m30s

 

[Divinokage]

I think falco combos ganon harder than falcon, though that could just be at the mid level because most of you here seem to disagree.

Whenever I get touched by falco, I end up dying. In my experience, falcon combos are really hard to get out of and usually end in an edge guard, but avoiding getting hit is much easier because of crouch cancel, among other things.

Besides, ganon combos falcon pretty hard too. And edge guards are easy as hell. And what linguini said: sh up air can turn around that nair pressure really quick.

My question is: how do you DI out of the pillar combos? @ -ACE- has mentioned DI'ing in, but tipman says out, and I try either and end up dying anyway.

Should I incorporate monster smash DI or what?

You SDI the Dair in if he crosses you up, you SDI out the Dair out if he's still facing you. You SDI shine upwards to avoid pillaring and you should be good. Tm had the same issue with those Dis, he just kept getting downair to shine x3 which is no good. lol

 

[Linguini]

Not too sure how I di falco's combos, probably just asdi lol. But that **** works...and always mash uair with the cstick

 

[Divinokage]

Not too sure how I di falco's combos, probably just asdi lol. But that **** works...and always mash uair with the cstick

Lmao, I wonder how you would be playing Street Fighter with Zangief, mash 360?

 

[Zigludo]

Lmao, I wonder how you would be playing Street Fighter with Zangief, mash 360?

works for me at 500pp

 

[Coastward]

Lmao, I wonder how you would be playing Street Fighter with Zangief, mash 360?

thats what i do with t hawk LOL