Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[Zigludo]

After some testing, dair > dsmash is definitely reliable on Sheik at 0% for DI away, neutral DI, and even SLIGHT DI in. Pretty frame tight, so if you dair too high or dsmash too late you'll whiff. But the good news is, you don't have to settle for uair.

You can also get a bair...

a dair...

or even a fair, lol.

For the record, fair can kill Sheik at 42% on Yoshi's from the edge with neutral DI, even with good DI if she's offstage (and as seen in the above image, the dsmash can set up an offstage fair), or from further onstage if she has bad DI. So that can theoretically be a zero-to-death combo on Yoshi's, I think. I don't have robust recording equipment or else I would try and make a video of dair>dsmash>fair kill on Yoshi's.

Next up, I guess I'll test for what % dair stops comboing into dsmash. Bear in mind though that even at 0%, it's not guaranteed, because Sheik can DI in to escape.

 

[-ACE-]

Interesting, although grab is a better punish on fd. So it works for DI away, but turnaround dsmash won't work for di behind? You mean at 0%?

Dair > dsmash > dair > missed tech > falling uair would be insane lol.

 

[Zigludo]

Interesting, although grab is a better punish on fd. So it works for DI away, but turnaround dsmash won't work for di behind? You mean at 0%?

Yes, naturally if you aren't a noob you should go for the chaingrab, it's even easier after stomp since she'll be at 22% and you'll have all the time in the world to react. But on Yoshi's she can tech a platform starting at 30% and Stadium at 40% so I think situationally this punish could be better.

As for the turnaround dsmash, I might just suck but there's a huge area that isn't covered by dsmash or turnaround dsmash. The closest hitbox for dsmash is actually quite a bit in front of Ganon's torso, so if Sheik manages to DI into Ganon's body I don't believe (from my testing) that either dsmash or turnaround dsmash can connect. Not to mention the fact that the turnaround would make the timing even tighter, but still do-able.

I should probably also mention that, since this isn't a grab/throw situation with pre-determined release points, the spacing of the dair is also very important when considering responses to DI. All of my testing in my original post was done with Sheik standing in front of Ganondorf, but obviously there are going to be plenty of situations where you're directly overhead/inside of Sheik or she is behind you and in that case the specifics would change. It is obtainable from any spacing though, depending on DI and using either a dsmash or a turnaround dsmash.

EDIT: For the record, dair>dsmash can combo until 18%, at which point Sheik can jump out with neutral DI. If she DI's hard left or right, you can get a dsmash until 22%. I'll test Falco now.

 

[-ACE-]

Your efforts are appreciated.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

@ Zigludo I like you.

 

[Zigludo]

So, dair > dsmash on Falco.

Theoretically, it starts existing at 8% if your dair is fresh, but at this point absolutely everything has to be frame perfect (lowest possible dair, earliest possible dsmash) AND Falco has to cooperate with his DI (either neutral or slight out, too far out and he'll tech before dsmash hits). I don't think it's feasible at this %, so it's not worth practicing, but this image at least proves that the combo exists.

Hooray for useless information! The dsmash is something like +36 on hit against Falco at this %, so your followups are only going to be limited by your movement. If he gets popped up above you you can land anything you want (fair, bair, dair, uair) but if he DIs way out, a running uair might be your only option. But even then, you might set up for an edgeguard, and unless you are a god of chaingrabbing Falco, this punish seems preferable to grab in my opinion.

I'll keep testing, hopefully find some more reasonable applications that aren't totally frame-perfect and DI dependent.

 

[Zigludo]

Think I'm just about done with researching dair>dsmash on Falco. With neutral DI, it's a true combo all the way to 51%...

...but if you ask me, that's totally pointless. It's impossible to get any followups at that %, so you should really just fair him or charge an UpSmash instead since those can actually kill (especially that weird hitbox on usmash that hits at like a 45 degree angle).

So the theoretical range for dair>dsmash with neutral DI is 8% - 51%. If you're a god, you can actually punish full DI at ~58% with running dsmash , at which point dsmash is technically your optimal punish because no other followups will hit (running usmash comes out too slow / not far ahead enough of Ganon to hit... maybe you can wd ftilt but the dsmash will usually be better.) but that's really just a silly edge case and isn't worth practicing IMO. Still, it means that the absolute theoretical boundaries for dair > dsmash combo on Falco are 8% > 58% lol.

BUT... as for %'s that you can reasonably expect to secure a 4 hit combo, I would say that from 18% to 40%, dair > dsmash is a really, really good idea. You can get the timing down pretty easily in training mode. This is going to be about 60% or more, making it a pretty optimal punish from dair. Unless you can consistently chaingrab Falco at 18% in which case please give me lessons =)

Since this is the only range worth practicing IMO, some notes on practicing the combo:

At 18%, the execution is still very frame-tight. Focus on landing the dair as close to the ground as possible. If they DI to land in front of you, just dsmash as soon as possible. If you see them DI to land behind you, hold the stick behind you to turnaround and dsmash immediately. If they DI out, too bad

As the % increases, you need to focus less on dsmashing as early as possible, and focus on dsmashing as LATE as possible. If you dsmash too early, Falco is going to be too high up, and also too high %, and he'll fly right over your second kick and you'll look like a scrub. However, if you just charge the dsmash and release it while he's about to hit the stage, you'll land both hits guaranteed.

So yeah. Practice at 18%, at 40%, and some percentages in between, and you'll be consistent eventually. Probably.

 

[Coastward]

me and @n0ne are teaming today so wish us luck.

 

[Zigludo]

me and @n0ne are teaming today so wish us luck.

I'll be stoked if this is streamed

 

[RedmanSSBM]

@ Zigludo Super legit stuff. Really nice to know that. So many Falcos that I dair have like no DI, so knowing I have a good range to do the dsmash is really great. I actually really like to do the 45 degree angle of upsmash (I like to call it the crotch-box) when a fastfaller doesn't DI the dair, but it's rather hard to time and hit, and sometimes I charge too long and they are able to get out and shine in time. There are other times where I hit with both hits of upsmash, and that does like 45%+ in just that move alone. But the problem with hitting the double-hit of upsmash is that you have no real way to follow up; it's not guaranteed. I like the down-smash idea because you can at least do an upair, or even a first hit of nair if you hit whem with the right hitbox to keep them in the air. Usually after the down-smash upair > upair > DJ fair and even single hit nair > upair > DJ fair can work, depending on their DI of course.

Hell, it would be really cool (and I think even beneficial in some cases) to end a combo with a pivot bair instead of a fair, if you're able to do it. I notice that when your opponent DIs the fair well, it doesn't send them that far. Bair comes out faster and is a bit harder to expect, and I think even when DI'ed at higher percents it has more knockback than fair does.

You could probably even do something janky like WD f-smash after landing an upair if your opponent DIs down and away. F-smash is crazy in that if your opponent DI's that move wrong, it can be curtains for them.

 

[Zigludo]

@ Zigludo

Hell, it would be really cool (and I think even beneficial in some cases) to end a combo with a pivot bair instead of a fair, if you're able to do it. I notice that when your opponent DIs the fair well, it doesn't send them that far. Bair comes out faster and is a bit harder to expect, and I think even when DI'ed at higher percents it has more knockback than fair does.

What exactly would make the bair a better kill move? Does it send at a lower angle, or does it actually have higher knockback growth? I definitely do think it would be harder to DI on reaction though because it comes out 4 frames earlier. However I can't find data on knockback angle and growth, etc., anywhere.

 

[-ACE-]

@ tm made a post about how the strength of aerials grows. I think bair surpassed fair at like 140%ish usually??

 

[Linguini]

People tend to di the fair worse tho, no one expects that big ass fist to crash their party.

D smash is aight. It's best used for tech chasing; usmash is a much better move tbh

 

[AquaBoogie]

So i am part of the crew "The Brothers In Harm" we are a small group and i just made a logo for our group not too long ago. I figured out how to make custom skins and i was wondering what you guys think of it? Not too bad for my first time.

 

[Zigludo]

Just tested Marth. Didn't take very long because there's hardly anything to say on the subject.

At 0% it's ridiculously easy to secure the dsmash or turnaround dsmash and whatever followup you want (dair is sometimes impossible), as long as his DI is suitable (as always he can DI inside of Ganon's body which is pesky. but then you can usmash or uair him on reaction LOL, Marth is floaty as ****).

I cannot stress how easy this combo is. The margin of error in execution is 14 frames, meaning you can dair 14 frames early or dsmash 14 frames late (or 7 for each) and still get the combo. I didn't bother taking any screenshots of the aerial followups because they're basically the same as Sheik's. Suffice it to say that even if he has perfect DI, you'll be able to squeeze in a bair or a running uair.

Marth is actually so floaty that he'll start flying over the second hit of dsmash at 12%, and jumps before the dsmash can hit starting at 18%.

Final verdict: It's good. Respectable punish at very, VERY low percents, especially considering that Ganon's chaingrabs on Marth are not-so-hot. This bears repeating: You'll have to be careful to time the hit so that Marth is low to the ground when the dsmash connects, because he has a pretty bad tendency to float right out of the second hit.

 

[why]

This is great information on the dair. I will try to put this into my game. I might repost some results of this information.

 

[Zigludo]

On Captain Falcon, dair > dsmash is frame perfect at 5% and he needs to land either in front of you or behind you, if he lands inside of you, he's safe (as always.) He doesn't have enough knockback to get away from you even if he DI's fully out, so that's one less thing you need to worry about

As for when the combo really starts to be reliable, I would say around 20-22%. At that point, you've got 6 or 7 frames margin of error in your execution, which is what I'm comfortable with practicing. But honestly, that's just my opinion - I know there are people in this thread who are a lot more precise than me and could probably nail it reliably at 15%, but whatever the lowest % is that you choose to practice at is just going to have to be the very quickest that you think you can achieve. (Just like chaingrabbing spacies- sure it's possible to cg Fox at 34%, but even if you practiced it to death I don't think many people would be consistent)

It works until 56% at which point Cap starts flying over the second hit of dsmash even with neutral DI. You could delay the dsmash a couple of frames to make up for it, but then Cap can jump out of it. Might still be worth a shot? Again, at higher percents it suffers from the fact that you aren't going to be able to follow up the dsmash and another move would probably be wiser. But until 43% you can get a uair (or an upB, lol) even if Cap DIs the dsmash to go straight upwards, and up to 51% if he has neutral DI. Fair connects until 47%, as seen below

Verdict: Looks pretty good to me. Has a higher %floor than Falco thanks to Cap's increased weight, but is also has a slightly higher ceiling for the same reason. Worth practicing, from [whatever you're comfortable with]% to 43%. After 43%, I would be more inclined to follow up the dair with a fair or uair or whatever I can land, and secure stage position, rather than gamble on the dsmash.

EDIT: One extra detail I feel is notable is the fact that Cap's longass legs will often put him in range for a dsmash even if he DIs to land almost perfectly on top of you, thanks to his almost completely horizontal hitstun animation.

 

[Renth]

swag

https://gfycat.com/ResponsibleBlindFugu

 

[Coastward]

On Captain Falcon, dair > dsmash is frame perfect at 5% and he needs to land either in front of you or behind you (as always.) He doesn't have enough knockback to get away from you even if he DI's fully out, so that's one less thing you need to worry about

As for when the combo really starts to be reliable, I would say around 20-22%. At that point, you've got 6 or 7 frames margin of error in your execution, which is what I'm comfortable with practicing. But honestly, that's just my opinion - I know there are people in this thread who are a lot more precise than me and could probably nail it reliably at 15%, but whatever the lowest % is that you choose to practice at is just going to have to be the very quickest that you think you can achieve. (Just like chaingrabbing spacies- sure it's possible to cg Fox at 34%, but even if you practiced it to death I don't think many people would be consistent)

It works until 56% at which point Cap starts flying over the second hit of dsmash even with neutral DI. You could delay the dsmash a couple of frames to make up for it, but then Cap can jump out of it. Might still be worth a shot? Again, at higher percents it suffers from the fact that you aren't going to be able to follow up the dsmash and another move would probably be wiser. But until 43% you can get a uair (or an upB, lol) even if Cap DIs the dsmash to go straight upwards, and up to 51% if he has neutral DI. Fair connects until 47%, as seen below

Verdict: Looks pretty good to me. Has a higher %floor than Falco thanks to Cap's increased weight, but is also has a slightly higher ceiling for the same reason. Worth practicing, from [whatever you're comfortable with]% to 43%. After 43%, I would be more inclined to follow up the dair with a fair or uair or whatever I can land, and secure stage position, rather than gamble on the dsmash.

zigludo is my new favourite

swag

https://gfycat.com/ResponsibleBlindFugu

holy **** that read LMAO

 

[Coastward]

k so i played terribly in singles today at my monthly.

got 13th, lost to the falco that i beat at that weekly last week becauae i got too cocky and didnt stick to fundamentals. defintely was an easy win.

i probably coulda gotten top 8. my jyperbolix time chamber training is paying off, i almoat made an upset against one of the top 3 players in winners bracket.

me and @n0ne got 3rd in teams, we made the sickest comeback man, it was godlike. will post vods of everything once theyre up.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Fair on shield to high f tilt is god like vs falcon because those scrubs always try to nair out of shield.

And why am I so good vs some falcos and so incredibly bad vs others? That matchup is whack.

 

[tm]

Yo. I need to get on Mr. Brandandorf's level of contributing to these boards, lmao.

I laughed out loud.

I'm pretty shocked at that too Dave, you do nothing but help the G-mains out. Btw, does anybody know a guaranteed combo into down-smash? I was thinking at around 10-15% dair should go into dsmash saving you the guess work (I.E techchasing) even if they ASDI or Smash DI you should be able to reach with pivot uair.

You can definitely dsmash from a stomp at low %s vs fastfallers (I like to charge it a bit) and I'm pretty sure the % range is more lenient than what you proposed. If they DI the 2nd kick in it can set up for a tech chase or edge guard, away = free fair or stomp.

What exactly would make the bair a better kill move? Does it send at a lower angle, or does it actually have higher knockback growth? I definitely do think it would be harder to DI on reaction though because it comes out 4 frames earlier. However I can't find data on knockback angle and growth, etc., anywhere.

Quoting from my other post:

"Due to bair having superior knockback growth over fair, it actually becomes stronger by certain %s (some lower than you might think). They have the same knockback angle, so total knockback should be the only factor when deciding which one to get the kill with. The following %s show the earliest % at which bair is STRONGER than fair (before the hit):
108% for fox
111% for falco
116% for marth
118% for sheik / peach
127% for falcon
98% for puff
131% for samus
117% for ICs

94% for pichu (fair always stronger below 94%)
136% for bowser (bair always stronger at and above 136%)

tl;dr
start going for kills with bair instead of fair at:
~100% for puff
~110% for spacies
~120% for sheik, marth, peach, ICs
~130% for falcon, ganon, samus
(before the hit)"

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

How many people here have been bodied by spider sense?

 

[Coastward]

lol

 

[スイフト]

lol

sex indeed

 

[Zigludo]

Dair > dsmash is frame perfect on Fox at 11%. Funny detail: you have time to connect with any aerial other than dair, but Fox falls SO FAST that you can even hit with usmash. Yeah, dair>dsmash>usmash is a true combo on Fox... I **** you not, I managed to hit with both hits of usmash once, and the resulting combo did 82% (!!!), I don't think there are many 82% combos in the game, lol. I'm an idiot though, and I didn't screenshot it.

In terms of "usability", I personally find that I can reliably land all 4 hits of the punish from 22% to 47%. Not totally sure why, but after that point I had lots of issues with Fox flying abnormally far in front of Ganon... maybe there's some kinda special hitbox on the second hit that he's falling into? I'm not very experienced with the debug mode to be totally honest I'm not 100% confident in my methodology lol. But I can say for sure that if I can hit it from 22% to 47%, YOU can hit it, too, because I suck and I can still pull it off.

WITH THAT, I've covered every S-tier matchup in which dair>dsmash exists, and so I'm done doing writeups on dair >dsmash lmao. I haven't written anything on the Dorf ditto but he has the same fall acceleration as Captain Falcon, the only differences would be that it would start to combo a couple of % later, since he's a bit heavier and won't suffer as much knockback/hitstun, and be able to jump out of it a few frames earlier, since his terminal velocity is pretty significantly lower, which becomes more relevant at higher %s

I also realize now that I skipped ICs lmaoo, but I don't know anything about that MU so I can't say if it would even be a good idea? Their fallspeed is right between Sheik and Marth's, but they weigh less and have a much lower terminal velocity than either one. So the combo will definitely work at 0%, but don't try going for it after that, because they'll be able to jump out even earlier than Marth.

 

[Zigludo]

So the final results of my not-very-exhaustive research on when dair>dsmash is a good idea.(note that these numbers only include %s where aerial followups to the dsmash are possible, because the dsmash is suboptimal otherwise)

Fox - Frame perfect: 11%, feasible: 22%-47%
Falco - Frame perfect: 8%, feasible: 18%-40%
Sheik - Feasible: 0%-18%
Marth - Ridiculously easy 0%-12%
Puff - Nope
Peach - Nope
Captain Falcon - Frame perfect: 5%, feasible: 20%-47%
ICs - Very easy 0%-8%

Please note that my 'feasible' ranges don't represent actual objective thresholds of any kind, they're simply the range between the highest possible percentage at which dsmash will secure aerial followups, and the lowest possible percentage that *I* feel I could reliably perform in tournament. That doesn't mean these combos are humanly impossible at any percentages lower than my 'feasible' range. If you want to be Bobby Badass and practice stomp>dsmash>usmash on Fox at 11%, or stomp>dsmash>fair on Falcon at 5%, then be my guest lmao

How many people here have been bodied by spider sense?

I have, lol. Nasty 2-0 on stream at the last monthly. Pretty sure I got 3-stocked both games. But then again, I beat him 2-1 in PM with my Ganon... probably because he went Marth and Snake! What gives, man?

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

I wanna know what number I am, cause I just got put on the list

 

[Renth]

I thought I was the only Ganondorf that liked to use down smash

 

[-ACE-]

How many people here have been bodied by spider sense?

I was ONE BAIR AWAY from 2-0'ing him in tourney once and still got bodied 2-1 lol.

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

This is G.B.A, G.ot B.odied A.nonymous, My name is Deezy, and I got bodied

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

What tier placement is Ganon? I know he is number 12 on the list (Should be 10 in my opinion) does that make him upper tier, mid tier, mid/low tier?

 

[RedmanSSBM]

I consider Ganondorf to be at the low end of the mid-tier spectrum.

 

[Zigludo]

Pretty sure most people agree that Ganon is at the top of the tiers. After all, he's a crazy meat mountain who crushes bones with many attacks doing 15+%...

Lol but seriously, I think Ganondorf is hella unviable IF your opponent knows every trick in your bag of tricks... that's why Ganon players spend so much time practicing and researching movement tricks, you gotta use them to win neutral because unlike a good character you don't have any 'good' options to go for. You gotta fool your opponent

But on the other hand I think that since Ganondorf is fun as hell, Ganon players have advanced his metagame really far compared to how viable he is, and so I believe that a great Ganon player stands a chance even in 2015.
I mean generally speaking, in my experience there are more Ganon mains than Doc or Luigi or Puff players, and about equal amounts as Puff and Peach, despite the fact that those characters are much higher on the tier list. Ganon's popular because he's fun and satisfying to play

might get heat for this since I'm basically saying 'Ganon is booty' in the Ganon thread lol, but I love Ganon, can't stop playing him

 

[-ACE-]

When in doubt, grab more.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

orlando tournament that @iRanch and myself are attending. we're also doing doubles.

twitch.tv/gamingknights1

nothing happening now but stay tuned for better stuff. we're also doing colbol vs the world (huge group of people vs colbol)

 

[PseudoTurtle]

I thought I was the only Ganondorf that liked to use down smash

Think again. I ****ing love down smash

What tier placement is Ganon? I know he is number 12 on the list (Should be 10 in my opinion) does that make him upper tier, mid tier, mid/low tier?

Dude, people **** on ganon and he's not that bad. He can cover a lot of options and if you get ~4 reads in a row, that's death for your opponent.

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

Think again. I ****ing love down smash



Dude, people **** on ganon and he's not that bad. He can cover a lot of options and if you get ~4 reads in a row, that's death for your opponent.

I was on smash wiki and it says Ganon only has 5 bad matchups, I think he is atleast upper tier

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

i personally think he only has 2.5 bad matchups. meh.

 

[Zigludo]

@ tm thanks for the info dump on bair vs fair. where did you obtain that information? the frame data thread doesn't even have damage% listed, much less base knockback, knockback growth, or knockback angle

i personally think he only has 2.5 bad matchups. meh.

Sheik? Spacies? Falcon?