Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[Zigludo]

LOL I remember you now, yeah I picked Marth and you kicked my **** in. Didn't really know you frequent the boards like that.

The only reason I won was because you didn't Ganon ditto me LOL, idk what you were doing that night. Game 1 was your Ike vs my Bowser on Yoshi's. You win, I switch to Ganon, you switch to Snake and I 2 stock you on Yoshi's, then you cp to FoD with Marth and I 2 stock you again... but in Melee you just 3stocked me twice in the ditto

and I actually only started browsing Smashboards like last week lol. I had an account way back when Brawl came out and I was like 14 or whatever but I can't remember what it was.

And yeah, there's going to be a perfect storm of Ganon in SFL soon, between Linguini, Tipman, ACE, yourself, and Rockcrock on the gulf coast. I hope I can catch up

 

[spider_sense]

The only reason I won was because you didn't Ganon ditto me LOL, idk what you were doing that night. Game 1 was your Ike vs my Bowser on Yoshi's. You win, I switch to Ganon, you switch to Snake and I 2 stock you on Yoshi's, then you cp to FoD with Marth and I 2 stock you again... but in Melee you just 3stocked me twice in the ditto

and I actually only started browsing Smashboards like last week lol. I had an account way back when Brawl came out and I was like 14 or whatever but I can't remember what it was.

And yeah, there's going to be a perfect storm of Ganon in SFL soon, between Linguini, Tipman, ACE, yourself, and Rockcrock on the gulf coast. I hope I can catch up

Brah, my Ganon is ass in PM. lol And don't worry, SFL will take great care of you. Especially the Ganons.

 

[Zigludo]

to answer your z-lightshield / shield-drop question:

I don't think it's anything specific to Ganondorf. In fact I don't think it's specific to lightshield or the z-button

The way I understand shield dropping is this: there's a certain distance that you have to move your control stick down in 1 frame in order to drop through a platform. There's also a certain, larger distance that you have to move your control stick in 1 frame in order to spot dodge from shield. So basically if you move the stick too far/ too fast, you'll spot dodge, and if you move it too slow/ not far enough, you'll just angle your shield downwards without dropping through the platform.

It just so happens that the vertical / y-axis distance between putting the stick fully 90° left or right, and putting the stick at a 45° angle, is just right - not too far, so it doesn't spot dodge. So basically all we're looking at here is an easy setup for satisfying a few conditions to make shield drop easier:

- in shield
- on a platform
- stick fully 90° left or right (not rolling)

the "not rolling part" is tricky. basically, you need to already be holding left or right on the stick when the shield comes up. otherwise, you're going to have to slooooowly move your stick over to the left or right to avoid rolling, and that's not easier than just shield dropping normally.

as for it's usefulness... shield dropping is godlike, you get to skip Ganon's 6-frame jumpsquat and basically perform any aerial oos, five frames faster. you also end up below your opponent while they're stuck on a platform, which is another bonus. so any setup that makes it easier to do is definitely beneficial.

however, if you're using cstick to aerial, I guess you can just do this:

1) use cstick to aerial
2) when you l-cancel, keep holding your l-cancel button down
3) hold control stick left or right while landing

that way, once your landing lag is over, you'll be shielding and angling your shield 90° to the side. then you can just slam the stick to the 45° once you want to shield drop. shouldn't be too tough to get consistent with this setup if you practice it a bit... but the feeling of holding down the l-cancel input is really weird.

 

[spider_sense]

to answer your z-lightshield / shield-drop question:

I don't think it's anything specific to Ganondorf. In fact I don't think it's specific to lightshield or the z-button

The way I understand shield dropping is this: there's a certain distance that you have to move your control stick down in 1 frame in order to drop through a platform. There's also a certain, larger distance that you have to move your control stick in 1 frame in order to spot dodge from shield. So basically if you move the stick too far/ too fast, you'll spot dodge, and if you move it too slow/ not far enough, you'll just angle your shield downwards without dropping through the platform.

It just so happens that the vertical / y-axis distance between putting the stick fully 90° left or right, and putting the stick at a 45° angle, is just right - not too far, so it doesn't spot dodge. So basically all we're looking at here is an easy setup for satisfying a few conditions to make shield drop easier:

- in shield
- on a platform
- stick fully 90° left or right (not rolling)

the "not rolling part" is tricky. basically, you need to already be holding left or right on the stick when the shield comes up. otherwise, you're going to have to slooooowly move your stick over to the left or right to avoid rolling, and that's not easier than just shield dropping normally.

as for it's usefulness... shield dropping is godlike, you get to skip Ganon's 6-frame jumpsquat and basically perform any aerial oos, five frames faster. you also end up below your opponent while they're stuck on a platform, which is another bonus. so any setup that makes it easier to do is definitely beneficial.

Well I already do that except I use Z instead of L or R for the lag cancel, I just do the aerial, while holding the directions and without worrying about an accidental grab coming out, and since I'm already holding the light shield just comes up which covers Ganon's entire body, so he's no longer susceptible to shield pokes. Maybe I'm explaining it wrong, but I'm sure it has uses for it. Lab harder bro. lol

however, if you're using cstick to aerial, I guess you can just do this:

1) use cstick to aerial
2) when you l-cancel, keep holding your l-cancel button down
3) hold control stick left or right while landing

that way, once your landing lag is over, you'll be shielding and angling your shield 90° to the side. then you can just slam the stick to the 45° once you want to shield drop. shouldn't be too tough to get consistent with this setup if you practice it a bit... but the feeling of holding down the l-cancel input is really weird.

 

[spider_sense]

to answer your z-lightshield / shield-drop question:

I don't think it's anything specific to Ganondorf. In fact I don't think it's specific to lightshield or the z-button

The way I understand shield dropping is this: there's a certain distance that you have to move your control stick down in 1 frame in order to drop through a platform. There's also a certain, larger distance that you have to move your control stick in 1 frame in order to spot dodge from shield. So basically if you move the stick too far/ too fast, you'll spot dodge, and if you move it too slow/ not far enough, you'll just angle your shield downwards without dropping through the platform.

It just so happens that the vertical / y-axis distance between putting the stick fully 90° left or right, and putting the stick at a 45° angle, is just right - not too far, so it doesn't spot dodge. So basically all we're looking at here is an easy setup for satisfying a few conditions to make shield drop easier:

- in shield
- on a platform
- stick fully 90° left or right (not rolling)

the "not rolling part" is tricky. basically, you need to already be holding left or right on the stick when the shield comes up. otherwise, you're going to have to slooooowly move your stick over to the left or right to avoid rolling, and that's not easier than just shield dropping normally.

as for it's usefulness... shield dropping is godlike, you get to skip Ganon's 6-frame jumpsquat and basically perform any aerial oos, five frames faster. you also end up below your opponent while they're stuck on a platform, which is another bonus. so any setup that makes it easier to do is definitely beneficial.

however, if you're using cstick to aerial, I guess you can just do this:

1) use cstick to aerial
2) when you l-cancel, keep holding your l-cancel button down
3) hold control stick left or right while landing

that way, once your landing lag is over, you'll be shielding and angling your shield 90° to the side. then you can just slam the stick to the 45° once you want to shield drop. shouldn't be too tough to get consistent with this setup if you practice it a bit... but the feeling of holding down the l-cancel input is really weird.

 

[spider_sense]

Well I already do that except I use Z instead of L or R for the lag cancel, I just do the aerial, while holding the directions and without worrying about an accidental grab coming out, and since I'm already holding the light shield just comes up which covers Ganon's entire body, so he's no longer susceptible to shield pokes. Maybe I'm explaining it wrong, but I'm sure it has uses. Lab harder bro. lol @ Zigludo God my laptop is ass....shoutouts to the quadruple posts

 

[spider_sense]

Well I already do that except I use Z instead of L or R for the lag cancel, I just do the aerial, while holding the directions and without worrying about an accidental grab coming out, and since I'm already holding the light shield just comes up which covers Ganon's entire body, so he's no longer susceptible to shield pokes. Maybe I'm explaining it wrong, but I'm sure it has uses. Lab harder bro. lol @ Zigludo God my laptop is ***....shoutouts to the triple posts

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

wow i guess smashboards is harder to play than melee, huh jason

 

[-ACE-]

wow i guess smashboards is harder to play than melee, huh jason

 

[-ACE-]

Loooooooooool

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

nice signature ace. i stand by that statement forever.

 

[-ACE-]

Lol. I couldn't resist. Not sure when I'm going to FL, sometime in the next 2 weeks I bet. Just gotta find a place really.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

@ spider_sense What @ Zigludo said about light-shield shield drop is pretty spot on. I L-cancel my aerials with Z, so if I land on a platform and keep holding Z and hold left or right while I'm in L-cancel lag, by the time my light-shield comes out, it will automatically be angled and then shield dropping from there is really easy. I think this could especially be useful on a platform cause not only is your shield huge, but you get pushed off more easily, so the only real way to counter this is by your opponent trying to grab you and you can react to that. I feel like the extra shield-stun isn't too big a deal when you have a huge shield that's really hard to poke. I'll try actually doing it this afternoon when I get a break.

 

[spider_sense]

wow i guess smashboards is harder to play than melee, huh jason

My laptop and unresponsive internet MU is literally 95-5 . Also, I got the job. So now it's time to start saving for EVO

I REALLY want you guys to explore these shield drop options. Even if you get wrecked for it, keep trying.

 

[tm]

The lightshield / shield drop thing works for sure, although if your shield is already full I don't think there's much need to light shield. Against some hits, the added shieldstun really will destroy your chance at punishing their hit on your shield, especially if it's spaced and pushes you away. In fact I think a lot of the time you will be pushed too far to hit with uair, but experimentation will say. Also be careful not to get pushed off the platform backwards while in your shield, or you'll get put into the weird falling off platform animation (25 inactionable frames). Getting pushed off forwards is ok, it's basically a shield drop lol.

Sometimes when my shield starts to get smaller I'll gradually release the shoulder button to keep it at the same size. Another thing we can learn to do is to shield drop quickly after having shield angled down. People will see you angling it and 'realize' that shield dropping is no longer an option, but it's definitely doable to release and shield drop from joystick neutral, just harder to be consistent. IMO empty pivots are harder (which I've been working on a lot lately and am very excited to become proficient with)

 

[spider_sense]

The lightshield / shield drop thing works for sure, although if your shield is already full I don't think there's much need to light shield. Against some hits, the added shieldstun really will destroy your chance at punishing their hit on your shield, especially if it's spaced and pushes you away. In fact I think a lot of the time you will be pushed too far to hit with uair, but experimentation will say. Also be careful not to get pushed off the platform backwards while in your shield, or you'll get put into the weird falling off platform animation (25 inactionable frames). Getting pushed off forwards is ok, it's basically a shield drop lol.

Sometimes when my shield starts to get smaller I'll gradually release the shoulder button to keep it at the same size. Another thing we can learn to do is to shield drop quickly after having shield angled down. People will see you angling it and 'realize' that shield dropping is no longer an option, but it's definitely doable to release and shield drop from joystick neutral, just harder to be consistent. IMO empty pivots are harder (which I've been working on a lot lately and am very excited to become proficient with)

Yeah I figured the light-shield dropping is character specific. I'm guessing it'd be great to use against Marth, Sheik, Falcon, Peach and not so much the spacies. You also said there's 25 inactionable frames? Is that on exclusive to only when Ganon is by the lip of the platform or does it still happen if he's in the center?

 

[Zigludo]

@ spider_sense I don't think the lightshield shielddrop is specific to Ganon at all. Any character can do it if they hold Z and left/right while landing on a platform. Unless maybe you're talking about something else and I just don't understand, lol

Also, those inactionable frames only happen when you get knocked off a platform, backwards, while shielding. You can see for yourself really easily, just waveland while holding down L or R and space it so that you pull out your shield and slide off the edge. If you slide off in the direction you're facing, you go into the normal fall animation and can do whatever you want, but if you fall off the opposite direction than the one you're facing, you go into this weird forced tumble thing and can't move for a few frames. It's something you should be careful of while lightshielding, because lightshields have way more shieldstun and pushback than hardshields, so you might end up getting pushed off a platform backwards and losing your frame advantage.

 

[spider_sense]

@ spider_sense I don't think the lightshield shielddrop is specific to Ganon at all. Any character can do it if they hold Z and left/right while landing on a platform. Unless maybe you're talking about something else and I just don't understand, lol

Also, those inactionable frames only happen when you get knocked off a platform, backwards, while shielding. You can see for yourself really easily, just waveland while holding down L or R and space it so that you pull out your shield and slide off the edge. If you slide off in the direction you're facing, you go into the normal fall animation and can do whatever you want, but if you fall off the opposite direction than the one you're facing, you go into this weird forced tumble thing and can't move for a few frames. It's something you should be careful of while lightshielding, because lightshields have way more shieldstun and pushback than hardshields, so you might end up getting pushed off a platform backwards and losing your frame advantage.

Yeah I meant to say it's "character specific" I mean it should works against certain characters from the roster, also that tumble state is so weird because I remember doing it once at SGT while holding backwards and still managed to get the fair to come out and punish. Maybe...maybe I'm the chosen one?

 

[Yort]

Are the matches archived Ian?

Here are the all the vods I could find from both Renth and Eikelmann

Renth vs Drunk Sloth: (Ganon vs. Icies)
http://www.twitch.tv/gamingknights1/b/641111439?t=29m45s

Eikelmann vs. uuaa: (Ganon vs. Fox)
http://www.twitch.tv/gamingknights1/b/641111439?t=52m15s

Eikelmann vs. Plup: (Eiklemann played Falco and then Fox, no Ganon)
http://www.twitch.tv/gamingknights1/b/641111439?t=1h10m47s

Eikelmann Vs. EE| Pi: (Ganon Vs. Shiek)
http://www.twitch.tv/gamingknights1/b/641111439?t=2h23m58s

Eikelmann Vs. Gravy: (Ganon Vs. Falcon)
http://www.twitch.tv/gamingknights1/b/641111439?t=2h30m10s

These vods will be deleted automatically from the archive in two weeks aka 4/8/15 so if @ RedmanSSBM wants to an analysis of Eikelmann Vs. Gravy (which I seriously hope he does because eikelmann was playing out of his mind) it has to be done somewhat soon.

Also, Eikelmann, why did you play fox/falco against plup's shiek when you managed to take a game off of it recently with ganon? I want to see you take down his shiek with ganon real bad, would make my day.

 

[Renth]

Christ my character control at that event was so shakey.

I suicided a lot, I did a lot of things I did not mean to do also a lot of things i would normally never do.

This is what happens when a year a go i was playing with dashizwiz uber ice ect. now i'm playing with, well. people I don't have to try against :\

 

[RedmanSSBM]

@ Yort I definitely want to analyze the Eikelmann vs Gravy one, since Ian just played super solidly and really only needs to polish his game a bit. I also think his mentality in regards to that match weren't very good. He started to choke and didn't keep his head cool, so I'd like to see where he started to flail, and where Gravy was able to keep his composure. If it's uploaded to youtube I'll definitely analyze it.

@ Renth You should work on trying to dominate everyone. You should focus on how you can improve the other people around you by really exploiting all of their weaknesses. You should try to 4-stock everyone. Make it a real challenge for yourself and push yourself to really improve. If you start slacking now because most of the people you play aren't that good, then you're gonna have a hard time continuing to improve. I always think of PPMD in situations like these. He got really good in NC and he constantly had to play people below his skill level.

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

Here are the all the vods I could find from both Renth and Eikelmann

Renth vs Drunk Sloth: (Ganon vs. Icies)
http://www.twitch.tv/gamingknights1/b/641111439?t=29m45s

Eikelmann vs. uuaa: (Ganon vs. Fox)
http://www.twitch.tv/gamingknights1/b/641111439?t=52m15s

Eikelmann vs. Plup: (Eiklemann played Falco and then Fox, no Ganon)
http://www.twitch.tv/gamingknights1/b/641111439?t=1h10m47s

Eikelmann Vs. EE| Pi: (Ganon Vs. Shiek)
http://www.twitch.tv/gamingknights1/b/641111439?t=2h23m58s

Eikelmann Vs. Gravy: (Ganon Vs. Falcon)
http://www.twitch.tv/gamingknights1/b/641111439?t=2h30m10s

These vods will be deleted automatically from the archive in two weeks aka 4/8/15 so if @ RedmanSSBM wants to an analysis of Eikelmann Vs. Gravy (which I seriously hope he does because eikelmann was playing out of his mind) it has to be done somewhat soon.

Also, Eikelmann, why did you play fox/falco against plup's shiek when you managed to take a game off of it recently with ganon? I want to see you take down his shiek with ganon real bad, would make my day.

He dash attacked and grabbed ledge, is that on battlefield only @Eikelmann?

 

[Coastward]

He dash attacked and grabbed ledge, is that on battlefield only @Eikelmann?

no ganon can do that on any stage.

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

no ganon can do that on any stage.

How?

 

[Coastward]

How?

dash attacking at the edge of the stage pushes you off at the end of the animation for some reason, so i think if you pivot before you fall off, you can grab the edge.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Thanks, yort. Renth, try what Locke said. Out of the people at my school, only two, maybe three people are better than me (whatever the broken PR says), and the kids I practice with aren't even close to my level. But my periods of greatest improvement are playing them and really trying to get in their heads and read their patterns so I can BODY them. With a few exceptions, I think that if you don't end up with four stocks at the end of a match, you can always learn more.

I think this has helped me so much because sometimes against players that know me really well or are way better, it's really hard to get a read on them and I can't learn as easily. But with players below you, you can really work on your fundamentals instead of trying to keep up.

That's not to say getting bopped doesn't help either, but don't write off your current training partners.

Edit: shout outs to southwest for having cheap WiFi on their planes

 

[X WaNtEd X]

that gravy set was such a heartbreaker. so many good things though. the wavedash ftilt shenanigans were legit.

 

[Zigludo]

Alright, somebody tell me how I'm supposed to edgeguard Samus. I really, really want to beat Cruz Control in our next moneymatch, and I'm tired of letting him float back into tether range for free.

 

[Renth]

Alright, somebody tell me how I'm supposed to edgeguard Samus. I really, really want to beat Cruz Control in our next moneymatch, and I'm tired of letting him float back into tether range for free.

two ways to deal with :

1. if the grapple is close to the stage grab the ledge, ledge drop up air, up b back to stage. If done quickly and unexpectedly will hit her out of tether. I do it to Samus, Link and in PM ZZS.

2. It's hard to hit let her have the ledge, ledge is hard for samus to get off of 9/10 samus players will forward air back onto the stage. Simply, spam back airs to eliminate her options, but not too close. You don't wanna get hit by an invuln move. Space b air ~> dead samus.

 

[Coastward]

Alright, somebody tell me how I'm supposed to edgeguard Samus. I really, really want to beat Cruz Control in our next moneymatch, and I'm tired of letting him float back into tether range for free.

always grab ledge.

if they bomb close to the stage where you can go offstage and punish with uair or bair, do it.

grabbing ledge always forces samus' tether recovery to make her rise through your body and she ends up above you. if your reads are godlike or you just have super nice timing, you can punish the zair rise with an eikeldrop. if you let her go above you, its kinda the same thing with edgeguarding sheik; super punishable when she lands on stage where you can just ledgedash bair or ftilt.

 

[Zigludo]

if your reads are godlike or you just have super nice timing, you can punish the zair rise with an eikeldrop.

alright, that leads me to my next question... what's an eikeldrop? lol

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

alright, that leads me to my next question... what's an eikeldrop? lol

Yea wtf is that bruh, and is it E-Z $$$$?

 

[spider_sense]

alright, that leads me to my next question... what's an eikeldrop? lol

Pretty much its a falling uair from the ledge; you just hold back on the control stick (while holding the ledge) and press back on the c-stick. Never really understood why it called "Eikeldrop" (no offense to you Ian <3) when I've seen Linguini/Rockcrock/Renth do it first.

 

[Renth]

ssbm training with Rockman

twitch.tv/lunacy_renth

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

Is it just me or do you guys get mad when commentators are always bagging on Ganon for being ass? I hate that bull****

 

[-ACE-]

Yeah people get carried away with names of techniques so much nowadays. Eikeldrop is a pretty funny name tho even if it's 2007 ****.

And yes I hate when commentators diss Ganon. All I can think is MM?!?!?!?

 

[Coastward]

its just an easier way to say ledgedrop uair.

and i dont really get mad when commentators bag on ganon, moreso when they try talking about his frames or some **** and thheyre completely false.

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

That to, I just don't feel like ganon's a bad character, he is most deff not low tier

 

[-ACE-]

http://youtu.be/yPVAOZe_Dss

Loool these matches were hilarious

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Well that was hilarious. That fricking side-b hitting Falcon at the ledge on FoD made me actually laugh haha.

I cringe though every time I see a Ganon fall from a great height and try to stomp or fair someone on the way down. Those moves are just too slow to accomplish what you want and your opponent can easily run away and back in to punish it. Bair for behind and late upair for in front are better options to cover space when you're trying to come back down imo.