Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[Coastward]

PseudoTurtle go to GOML so we can team lmao

 

[Diosama]

Coastward I'm signed up for GOML, so if turtle doesn't go, you can team with newbie here

 

[X WaNtEd X]

So in order to prepare for me, one team literally played nothing but Ganon dittos for a week and then sent in a team of ganons. Because I only played secondaries against my team, they all forgot how to play the matchup. So we almost lost, but I managed to pull it back after 3 stocks of cheesing.

 

[Diosama]

I played quadruple Ganon in teams with a friend vs Kage and Ryan Ford on Yoshi's Story. By far, the most fun I've ever had.

 

[Diosama]

You know I think some good data to look up on would be dthrow/upthrow percents that put people on platforms. Would make followups more common in some mus, like fastfallers, while making floaties ones all the more guaranteed.

EDIT: Anyone got that in-browser-DI-knockback-calculator-chart-thingy?

 

[PseudoTurtle]

PseudoTurtle go to GOML so we can team lmao

I don't think there's any way I could possibly work that out lol

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Okay yeah I can definitely confirm that through playing against Sprankles enough, who has a pretty linear (but extremely solid and defensive) play that the Ganon Puff matchup is just nigh impossible to win. Ganon is so gamn slow that he pretty much will never get a grab unless he is straight reading Puff's movement and she doesn't throw out an attack to cover her, which she will never do no matter who plays as her. Ganon does hit pretty miraculously hard, which is his only real saving grace, but it's not going to be enough. Doing any slow move against Puff that isn't a solid read is just gonna get you hit. Sure your CC is godlike, but you can even't CC grab Puff cause of her landing animations making her "crouch" below your grab. There's so much safe stuff she can do when she gets close that the only thing that helps you is to jab her, and that can easily miss if you're not smart with the jab. Ganon is also so slow that even if you CC a weak move, you can't really run away to reset to neutral, the best you can probably do is roll but that seems like your only option and Puff can cover that super easily. I'm positive the only reason why I have close games vs Sprankles is because I get a lot of reads in neutral (I get some fsmash reads on him landing in neutral is ****ing hilarious) and since Ganon hits so hard, it kind of balances out. I'm only able to get those reads because I can predict what Sprankles will do in some neutral situations and he has a lot of movement patterns that I have picked up on. I'm positive if I played a Puff who was less predictable, I'd just get straight bodied.

Not to say that I didn't have any fun playing Ganon vs Puff, I actually had a lot of fun figuring things out about the matchup and drawing comparisons between Falcon and Ganon in the Puff matchup.

I played a good bit of Dr. Mario as well and I definitely think the Puff matchup is way more doable with Doc. Biggest thing he has is that with good DI, he has a much better time recovering vs Puff.

There's something really fun about playing mid/low tier characters against higher tiers that they can do pretty well in. I am a firm believer that Link's best top tier matchup is Peach.

 

[-ACE-]

Yo Doc can **** jiggypoo UP. usmash to fair rest punish LOL. The jiggs matchup (with Ganon) just shows how important your movement has to be as far as speed and elusiveness. **** that character

 

[Linguini]

It's winnable, but edgeguarding for jiggs is simply too easy. Fortunately, from my experience most jiggs players don't really know the ganon matchup like they should. Hungrybox was only ever the only jiggs that knew what he was doing. He has the crouch/shuffle game on lock which can destroy ganon if you don't roll out (heh)

Basically you just gotta keep her out of your space and if she gets in try to reset to neutral asap.

Btw some new vids up from a weekly, GF vs Elliot who is a good peach. Think I started remembering what to do against peach after I got bodied in WF lol.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPX6VQxFreU

Other vids can be found on this channel

 

[PseudoTurtle]

I've actually changed my mind on the puff matchup. I used to think it was pretty much unwinnable, but after learning the matchup decently, it really is doable. Damn I wish the crew battle of me vs abu was still up, I honestly feel like I played the matchup pretty optimally with respect to my skill level.

Like linguini said, keep your space and if she gets in, just reset to neutral and make her run into your bairs.

Grabbing jiggs is hard, yea, but still doable. Puff is slow enough that empty hops and wavelands will still work with the right read. Not really that hard to be perfectly honest, and not a deciding factor. Grabbing pikachu is much, much harder IMO.

Game two is probably just an auto-loss, which is generally the case vs spacies anyway, so... whatever. Crouch cancelling destroys puff, Locke, seriously. You might just not be using it right. CC dtilt / jab into aerial. Or CC into wizard foot when your % is low.

Keep at it, it's a tough one, but it's not on the level of fox, falcon, sheik or maybe even peach I think.

 

[Diosama]

You can cc jab into fair at some %s. There are a few examples in one of Kage's sets that happened last weekend.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Oh trust me I used CC pretty extensively when I played Sprankles and he stuffed a lot of what I was trying to do because Ganon's moves are either too slow, or Ganon himself is too slow. CC dtilt for instance is one of the slowest options out of a crouch. It works sometimes but definitely not reliable. I'm also extremely positive that jab into fair only works if the Puff DIs in. Sprankles DIs up and away pretty much every time so I can never get jab to fair to be a true combo. I have to read him double jumping.

I do think CC into instant retreating upair is good though. Covers a lot of space and allows you to get out of there while also putting out a hitbox that can beat out some of Puff's moves if done right. I've tried CCing into dair and that's way too slow and gets uptilted. CC into jab only pushes her away and resets to neutral, which is find in the long run really. Sprankles makes CC grab near impossible because of how much he drifts when he hits me with a weak aerial. I have to dash forward and hope to get him before he lands, it's pretty hard. CC into Wizard's foot is also extremely susceptible to getting stuffed, as fsmash beats it, shielding beats it, jabbing, ftilting, grabbing (he hit confirms moves into grab and he extends his grab range at times to where down-b won't come out in time or pull back far enough. You have to basically be Frame Perfect for the down-B to come out and beat a grab from Puff. I've tried CC side-b as well and that has some use but boy is it risky.

Funny enough, if Puff lands far enough away from you, CC up-b is actually pretty good cause it reaches low enough to grab a crouching Puff. She better be at high percent though. CC down-angled ftilt is actually probably one of Ganon's best moves out of CC as it's relatively fast and can push Puff away a good bit, but even then it's still slow enough to be stuffed pretty regularly. CC retreating instant bair ain't half bad either. CC full hop dair or just full hop to get away might actually be useful, I haven't tried that one yet.

CC also depends a lot on if the Puff lands after the attack or not. Usually you get more options when she is still in the air and you can get out of there, but you have to be careful and really fast about it.

That's all I can think of now for CC.

 

[tm]

Played like booty tonight but I got revenge on link lol. Then I lost to heartstrings 2-0, last stock/last hit situations both games. I missed crucial fastfalls after landing stomps to get the free grab, didn't refresh INV with dj before doing the normal getup while edgeguarding, missed some shield drops, and dropped half my chaingrabs. I don't know how I can forget things after playing this game so long, lmao. Unfortunately I had to leave/forfeit, wanted to friendly him some.

tm he wanted to know how to beat you but I can't dog you like that

lol we end up playing a lot. It's almost always close but historically I edge him out. He does good stuff but he also has a lot of habits that give me big punishes. Also his edgeguarding is pretty bad, and he probably has a big mental block against me now.

 

[Divinokage]

If the jiggs is baiting instant moves oos or out of a cc thats when the WD mixup is pretty important to change your timing and actually pull back and land hits. Normally you're too close to jiggs in that position. The matchup is about keeping her off the point blank range. So in general CC doesnt help that much unless you get a sick read on her movement.

 

[Diosama]

Here's Kage vs Rising Puff Star, Legend. Pretty good set imo.
https://youtu.be/cYLG0Rl2h9M

And then here's me vs Ryan Ford. Not so good imo lol
https://youtu.be/aY4SC1u6X3E

 

[-ACE-]

Kage stealing my color lol, good set. Legend is pretty good but kage had a good general read on his movement.

 

[Diosama]

He goes red in loser's bracket. Kage harnesses the Rage.

They had another set last night, Legend brought Kage to 1 stock each game.

 

[Divinokage]

He goes red in loser's bracket. Kage harnesses the Rage.

They had another set last night, Legend brought Kage to 1 stock each game.

Lol yep thats the new thing going on.

Yesterday, game 1 sure. Game 2 it was close because i gave him hope with SDs, game 3 was 1 stock? I just remember the falcon punch ko at 37.

 

[Diosama]

Might've been 2, idk. He's catching up quick dude, wouldn't be surprised if he beat you next week.

 

[ForTheLulz]

So I decided to play Fox, Falcon, and Ganon.

Everyone says that you should only single or dual main, blah blah blah. Shaddup. I do what I want.

All three have such different approaches to the game, and I enjoy playing all three equally.

I'm still young. I believe I can do this. Isn't that what counts?

 

[Diosama]

You do you fam

I do kinda wanna pick up Peach, dunno why, must be Montreal

 

[-ACE-]

I'm a firm believer that everyone is different. As a general rule, i'll agree that less characters = better, but it just seems narrow-minded imo to say that applies to every potential melee player. Especially with matchups/stages in mind. I really think using Marth for spacies on fd is viable for a Ganon main in some instances, for example, as long as you have a marth that can dd/cg/wall out fox.

 

[Bwmat]

That's what I do, problem is that I never know who to go for a given match.

 

[Divinokage]

Might've been 2, idk. He's catching up quick dude, wouldn't be surprised if he beat you next week.

Next week? It might take a few more months at least.

 

[-ACE-]

Next week? It might take a few more months at least.

Tell em Kage.

NEVER!!! Lol

 

[Diosama]

That's what I do, problem is that I never know who to go for a given match.

Go Ganon for the blind pick unless you know they're a spacy main, in which case start Marth and do your thing. If Ganon, regardless of whether of not you lose game 1, leave FD open to bait them into picking it, then switch to Marth, ez

 

[-ACE-]

It's definitely a dirty trick the first time you spoil someone's counterpick lol. Then they know your ace in the hole.

If you're good at recognizing habits, that can influence character selection also, just like general styles (ex: avoiding campy foxes on DL when necessary).

Also Divinokage if you don't mind me asking what stage picking strategy do you have vs Ryan Ford, and does it differ from other foxes like sauc3? I know he's worlds apart from almost all other foxes in the matchup, so it could be an unfair comparison. Just curious. Aside from banning FD/going falcon on FD in a bo5.

 

[Divinokage]

It's definitely a dirty trick the first time you spoil someone's counterpick lol. Then they know your ace in the hole.

If you're good at recognizing habits, that can influence character selection also, just like general styles (ex: avoiding campy foxes on DL when necessary).

Also Divinokage if you don't mind me asking what stage picking strategy do you have vs Ryan Ford, and does it differ from other foxes like sauc3? I know he's worlds apart from almost all other foxes in the matchup, so it could be an unfair comparison. Just curious. Aside from banning FD/going falcon on FD in a bo5.

Honestly when someone knows the matchup that well, the stages pick matter a lot less so I go with what would give me the most chances instead of than going for the opponent's weakness. I just like BF and Yoshis mainly vs Fox. If they take me to PS or FD I might go Falcon depending on if Im feeling it or I got wrecked.

 

[-ACE-]

Honestly when someone knows the matchup that well, the stages pick matter a lot less so I go with what would give me the most chances instead of than going for the opponent's weakness. I just like BF and Yoshis mainly vs Fox. If they take me to PS or FD I might go Falcon depending on if Im feeling it or I got wrecked.

That's how I feel about porkchops lol. What stages does he CP?

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Might've been 2, idk. He's catching up quick dude, wouldn't be surprised if he beat you next week.

Tbh I'd be very surprised. Kage read him like a book lol. Legend is good, but he needs to work on his spacing

 

[Bwmat]

Go Ganon for the blind pick unless you know they're a spacy main, in which case start Marth and do your thing. If Ganon, regardless of whether of not you lose game 1, leave FD open to bait them into picking it, then switch to Marth, ez

Nah I meant fox/falcon/ganon

And in the last few months I've started to play a bit of sheik as well.

 

[Divinokage]

That's how I feel about porkchops lol. What stages does he CP?

It seems like he really likes BF and FD overall more than the others.

 

[F. Stein]

So I decided to play Fox, Falcon, and Ganon.

Everyone says that you should only single or dual main, blah blah blah. Shaddup. I do what I want.

All three have such different approaches to the game, and I enjoy playing all three equally.

I'm still young. I believe I can do this. Isn't that what counts?

You do what you want man. I have a similar approach. I play the triforce. Ganon at the top, my main, then Link and Sheik are for situations where I need different approaches.

 

[-ACE-]

It seems like he really likes BF and FD overall more than the others.

Lol they all love fd don't they. Porkchops likes YS over BF

 

[X WaNtEd X]

MDZ will ban DL and let me cp yoshi's or bf

 

[tm]

wtf....
I don't understand any top tiers banning DL against ganon, maybe bar marth

 

[-ACE-]

wtf....
I don't understand any top tiers banning DL against ganon, maybe bar marth

Seriously. MDZ fears grim's neutral game lol. Probably hates comboing on DL.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

i wish, but no mdz doesn't fear me at all. he's just a weird guy that makes weird decisions in all aspects of smash lol.

he's also pretty good against ganon when he's on point. i've taken games in friendlies, but never in tournament. i've been at last stock twice or something. but we've only played 3 or 4 sets and none within the last half year.

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

What do you do when your favorite players hates you for changing mains and calls you "The traitor of the south" xD spider_sense he's mad his son didn't follow in his footsteps Lol, i'm sorry.

 

[spider_sense]

What do you do when your favorite players hates you for changing mains and calls you "The traitor of the south" xD spider_sense he's mad his son didn't follow in his footsteps Lol, i'm sorry.

Simple. Go back to Ganon .