Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

so i did my interview for a job and i'm pretty sure i aced it

but if for some reason i end up not being able to get the job, i'm hitchhiking to big house and spending what's left of my money.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

lmao at all the drunk stories. my friends at apex last year said they were right next to mango's hotel room and they saw him in the middle of the hall on lucky's back downing a handle. also linguini's comment about all ganon's smoking bud is so true. i haven't met a ganon player yet that doesn't.

 

[-ACE-]

Joe how is marth getting around the marth killer? The only thing you have to worry about is his dj (so they can't dj fair/nair your light shield), and this is when faking the MK (and then getting that bair/uair... I think you mentioned this earlier) can work well. If he has no dj, forcing him to land on stage and ledgehop grabbing him is golden. Only problem is that on a stage like DL64, if he's not at really high% he can DI your dthrow toward the center of the stage, and survive the incoming fair (or bair if you had to ledgehop pivot grab him, happens often when marths get accustomed to Ganon that use the MK often.... The grab is still given though).

 

[Coastward]

lmao at all the drunk stories. my friends at apex last year said they were right next to mango's hotel room and they saw him in the middle of the hall on lucky's back downing a handle. also linguini's comment about all ganon's smoking bud is so true. i haven't met a ganon player yet that doesn't.

*looks around*

 

[RedmanSSBM]

I don't smoke.

 

[Yort]

I don't smoke.

Man I looked for you everywhere at TOX, I only managed to play one good ganondorf player which was Lich King but he doesn't even main ganon so it doesn't really count.

Still had a ****load of fun and learned a bunch by playing people much much better then me, also was exciting to see that NC zelda player **** on everyone.

 

[cptjiggles69]

I don't

lmao at all the drunk stories. my friends at apex last year said they were right next to mango's hotel room and they saw him in the middle of the hall on lucky's back downing a handle. also linguini's comment about all ganon's smoking bud is so true. i haven't met a ganon player yet that doesn't.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Man I looked for you everywhere at TOX, I only managed to play one good ganondorf player which was Lich King but he doesn't even main ganon so it doesn't really count.

Still had a ****load of fun and learned a bunch by playing people much much better then me, also was exciting to see that NC zelda player **** on everyone.

Yeah sorry man, I didn't see you either. I remember watching a doubles friendlies set and I asked who the Ganon player was. Maybe that was you? I talked to The Lich King a bit and he's pretty good, played a good few Ganon dittos with him as well. I saw like 2 other Ganons there, I'm sure I saw you I just never caught your tag/name.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Joe how is marth getting around the marth killer? The only thing you have to worry about is his dj (so they can't dj fair/nair your light shield).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aKzlh3zLKI&t=0m50s

That's a way to get around it. I think that you maybe have time to bair though. If they fair your light shield, that's actually not that bad because it's easy to edge guard Marth from the ledge. Whenever that happens, I'll just use the ledge invincibility to ledge hop uair/ledge drop uair, etc.

But, to be honest, I wouldn't use Marth killer if it's possible for them to dj fair you. Usually, it's only your best option when they have to sweetspot/almost sweetspot.

Thanks man. I appreciate the advice; it's also nice to have someone here who has a lot of experience against Samus.
Since Pooch is my main training partner right now, I also want to be well versed in that matchup - edgeguarding, getting around missiles, all of it.

When you say auto-cancelled uair, you mean out of shield right? Does it still work when they throw the nair/fair really low to the ground and space it well? Half the time I feel like when they do that, they're already crouching for a dtilt or gotten out a grab before I can do anything.

I would talk to Trail about matchups, but I don't see him on the boards and he hasn't been to the weeklies at EXP lately.

And that he sucks vs. Marth. Lol. Yea, I haven't seen much of Trail yet either, it's a shame he couldn't come to SMYM/big house. I can't wait to steal his title of best ganon in the midwest.

To answer your question: yes, I mean out of shield, 90% of the time. And if they throw a fair close to the ground, that won't really help them out that much because they have 2 options here if they're trying to do that:

1) SH fair --> fair
Easy. You get a free uair in between fairs, no problem.

2) SH --> wait --> fair
This may work once, but you should be able to recognize it after a few attempts- after that, just uair him before the fair even comes out because this DEFINITELY isn't a safe move on their part lol, it's all a mindgame.

Regarding a low nair- this is a little trickier because it requires a read most of the time. I'm pretty sure that you can shield grab the nair if he lands it in front of you, but a lot of Marths tend to cross you up and SHFFL it behind you and auto-cancel it. I don't really have any tips for recognizing it besides experience (you'll get it after a while though), but if he lands behind you, you can throw out a bair out of shield. This will hit him unless he dashes away (but it is still a good walling-out move, even if it doesn't connect).

You can't uair after nair, you have to do it preemptively, but it is punishable. They should not have time to crouch and they most certainly don't have time to grab.

What do you need help with in the Samus matchup, specifically? I've played pooch, and you're definitely better than he is. At least, when you and I played, you definitely did better vs me than pooch did, so maybe you just need matchup experience and advice? If you just need an overall rundown of the matchup, I'd be happy to write it out for you. Samus is another one of my really good matchups these days.

 

[-ACE-]

Lol that was a brain fart by linguini, not a way around the MK. He could have bair'd like you said. Low ftilt is always an option too. Marth got lucky.

I've got a lot of stuff typed for the thread, maybe 1/3 done as of now.

Edit: maybe half done now, length-wise. 3000 words so far.

 

[Coastward]

http://www.twitch.tv/acgamesonline/c/5168567 me, n0ne and raynex ****ing around with friendly ganon dittos for a while at the beginning

1:02:09 me and n0ne vs idea and weon-x (****ing hype doubles set)
3:00:00 me vs kirbykaze (did better than i thought i would)
5:51:03 me vs ap renekton (sick techchasing in this set)

let me know how im doing so that i can work on it before bh4

 

[tm]

But, to be honest, I wouldn't use Marth killer if it's possible for them to dj fair you. Usually, it's only your best option when they have to sweetspot/almost sweetspot.

Personally I still like it in that situation. A lot of marths [when they see you start the marth killer preemptively, and they have double jump] will see it and go "OH! I'm not in a bad position yet, I can force him to ledge or hit with nair", and they fair or nair your shield, but you can just let go of the control stick and shield harder, then punish accordingly (if they did fair, you can bair or maybe uair spike them, and if they did nair you can WD to ledge then ledgedrop uair with invincibility (since they will usually be forced to upB after nairing).

Some people will also airdodge in to avoid the marth killer, this can be baired on reaction but you have to be pretty fast (expect it)

 

[Moy]

And that he sucks vs. Marth. Lol. Yea, I haven't seen much of Trail yet either, it's a shame he couldn't come to SMYM/big house. I can't wait to steal his title of best ganon in the midwest.

To answer your question: yes, I mean out of shield, 90% of the time. And if they throw a fair close to the ground, that won't really help them out that much because they have 2 options here if they're trying to do that:

1) SH fair --> fair
Easy. You get a free uair in between fairs, no problem.

2) SH --> wait --> fair
This may work once, but you should be able to recognize it after a few attempts- after that, just uair him before the fair even comes out because this DEFINITELY isn't a safe move on their part lol, it's all a mindgame.

Regarding a low nair- this is a little trickier because it requires a read most of the time. I'm pretty sure that you can shield grab the nair if he lands it in front of you, but a lot of Marths tend to cross you up and SHFFL it behind you and auto-cancel it. I don't really have any tips for recognizing it besides experience (you'll get it after a while though), but if he lands behind you, you can throw out a bair out of shield. This will hit him unless he dashes away (but it is still a good walling-out move, even if it doesn't connect).

You can't uair after nair, you have to do it preemptively, but it is punishable. They should not have time to crouch and they most certainly don't have time to grab.

What do you need help with in the Samus matchup, specifically? I've played pooch, and you're definitely better than he is. At least, when you and I played, you definitely did better vs me than pooch did, so maybe you just need matchup experience and advice? If you just need an overall rundown of the matchup, I'd be happy to write it out for you. Samus is another one of my really good matchups these days.

I hope you can shield grab their nair. I'm just not sure if ganon's grab range is good enough if they hit your shield with the end of it.

A general rundown would be much appreciated. Specifically, dealing with missiles and edgeguarding are my main focus right now. I can usually beat Pooch in the neutral game - it just gets frustrating when he starts playing really defensive.

 

[Yort]

Yeah sorry man, I didn't see you either. I remember watching a doubles friendlies set and I asked who the Ganon player was. Maybe that was you? I talked to The Lich King a bit and he's pretty good, played a good few Ganon dittos with him as well. I saw like 2 other Ganons there, I'm sure I saw you I just never caught your tag/name.

I remember somebody asking who the ganon was in doubles; that was me and my shiek friend vs a peach and marth in pools I think.

Shame I didn't get to play any other ganons, I learned after facing Lich King that I am absolutely awful in the ganon ditto. Got destroyed, he was also just a much much better player than me.

 

[Coastward]

i'm money matching you guys with canadian bills by the way LOL

 

[-ACE-]

Lmao get bodied USA

So, should I go ahead and post this thread now? I have sections unfinished, and haven't incorporated specific percents from Locke's knockdown thread or percentages where fox/falco/falcon land on lower platforms out of dthrow. It is also unorganized and will surely be a work in progress. I figure it may give you guys some good ideas before big house.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Lol that was a brain fart by linguini, not a way around the MK. He could have bair'd like you said. Low ftilt is always an option too. Marth got lucky.

yeah i saw that video when i was first studying ganon videos and i couldn't believe i was watching linguini. i even made a comment because i was so surprised.

 

[n0ne]

yeah i saw that video when i was first studying ganon videos and i couldn't believe i was watching linguini. i even made a comment because i was so surprised.

Guys i hope i can actually locate u guys at big house, bear with me cuz im meeting a whole bunch of new faces

 

[RedmanSSBM]

I remember somebody asking who the ganon was in doubles; that was me and my shiek friend vs a peach and marth in pools I think.

Shame I didn't get to play any other ganons, I learned after facing Lich King that I am absolutely awful in the ganon ditto. Got destroyed, he was also just a much much better player than me.

I played him in a few Ganon dittos and we went a bit even, but I felt like he was just a bit better overall.

Good to know that that was you, sorry I never really formerly introduced myself.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Lol that was a brain fart by linguini, not a way around the MK. He could have bair'd like you said. Low ftilt is always an option too. Marth got lucky.

I've got a lot of stuff typed for the thread, maybe 1/3 done as of now.

Edit: maybe half done now, length-wise. 3000 words so far.

I've been teaching myself how to code recently for a website I hope to put up in December(ish). I wish I had the motivation for programming that you do for Ganondorf guides lmao. I'd be done in a week, tops.

To answer your question, I'd wait until it's perfected (or nearly so), but to put it up before big house, so that us ganons have something to think about while in Ann Arbor.

tm, that's brilliant. I'm gonna have to try that.

@ Moy , ok, no problem. Getting around missiles is tough business because they're quick little ****ers and you can get hit if you over commit to a laggy move (like fair/dair). The good news is that you can also do literally any attack through missiles (jab, tilt, fair, megabus, etc. etc.).

Another good thing to keep in mind is that if you side-b right before Samus shoots a missile, you beat the missile (meaning, you don't just avoid it, it explodes with no damage and you keep going with the side-b momentum.). This is really good when Samus is on a platform. A lot of Samus players like to just chill on a platform and wait for you to be overly aggressive and come in with a fair... They then proceed to platform drop --> missile you. Ripple has done this so many ****ing times, I can't even begin to describe how annoying it is. But now you can side-b because every ****ing Samus player does this bull****... lol. Just make sure you're not too close to the edge, otherwise if you miss, you'll end up falling off stage and SDing lol.

Samuses (Sami?) also love to spot dodge into dtilt/dsmash. Watch out for this. Basically, try not to be too aggressive when Samus is shielding because pooch will likely spot dodge past your fair and retaliate with a dsmash. You can actually get around this with really good spacing though. Whiff bair/fair --> jump --> bair/fair to punish dsmash/dtilt.

They also like to crouch cancel your jab into dsmash/dtilt. Luckily, this is the only move they can crouch cancel and, even then, it doesn't really go above the mid-level percents anyway. I have trouble reading this because jab is such an automatic response for me, but if you can read it, go for the grab/stomp.

Tilts and jabs are really important in this matchup as well. Like ganon, Samus is a pretty slow, so it's not too difficult to put her in her shield. Unlike ganon, Samus doesn't have a good roll (like at all), so I can 100% guarantee you that she will wavedash forward, wavedash back, or up-b (anti-pressure move). Just downward-angled ftilt when Samus is shielding in front of you. Most of the time, your opponent will catch onto this and wavedash back instead of forward (to avoid getting hit by your ftilt), but that's ok because now you've just gained stage control.

As for edge guarding, it's all one giant read. There is no surefire way to edge guard samus. You can always come down with bairs and uairs, but there's always the chance she'll air dodge and use that dumbass grapple and now you're the one being edge guarded. Eddie spiking is good if for some reason the grapple is used up and all she has left is up-b (her recovery sucks after grappling).

Don't focus tooooo hard on edge guarding. Ledge pressure is easy, just bair. Look closely at how your opponent is ledge stalling. Some Samus players will ledge stall above the stage so that they can land on stage lag-less and it looks very deceptive. But it's totally unsafe as all hell and you should definitely punish it before they can mess up your timing and land lagless and dsmash you.

@ spider_sense , I know you wanted samus advice, some of this is probably pretty legit. At least look at the paragraph above this one because this worked a couple of times on you and it should have been a free stock.

Guys, let me know if there's anything I missed!

 

[-ACE-]

Too late, already posted it. I figured the discussion it could generate would be beneficial before the tournament.

It'll be perfected soon enough.

http://smashboards.com/threads/techchasing-into-2015-metagame-and-theory.369684/

 

[spider_sense]

Yeah man, I've been reading the post. I really appreciate the feedback; I think I just struggle with obscure matches. I'll keep trying because I know I can be one of the best. Especially can't wait to rub it in @Blea Gelo 's face when I beat him.

One thing I've been doing like you mentioned is bair her by the ledge and just wait patiently while she's try to recover. It's been helping my game a lot vs her. I also figured out a pretty legit way to close the gap vs her midrange; right when she shoots a rocket and (depending how far you are) you can side b her for free, it'll just scoop Ganon right under her pesky missile. Of course you could just jab them, but I'm too boss for that. lol

 

[Moy]

@ spider_sense Your play is mad good. I've been watching your most recent matches vs. Porkchops - you make Falco look like a complete punk on Yoshi's.

Good stuff vs. Wes Jr. too. I never heard of him, but I asked Pooch and he was already aware of the guy's talent.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

I also figured out a pretty legit way to close the gap vs her midrange; right when she shoots a rocket and (depending how far you are) you can side b her for free, it'll just scoop Ganon right under her pesky missile. Of course you could just jab them, but I'm too boss for that. lol

jab is inferior to side b anyway imo. also you can run up and at the last minute crouch into downtilt. my personal choice. another thing i do is i'll down b from pretty far way when they shoot a low grounded missile and basically the missile will cancel out the down b, so it's a great way to get across stage off of what she's doing.

 

[Linguini]

Sh Uair can scoop up a missile too. Don't let samus get comfortable. And once you get her above you you gotta rack up as much damage as possible...consecutive hits

 

[-ACE-]

True. You'll quickly learn the most disjointed part of the uair hitbox if you're nullifying missiles with it.

I lost to Blea's samus (loool) late last night in friendlies. 4 stocked him game 2 though. Goofiest matches ever. F*ck samus, she requires work and I'm beyond lazy haha

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Yea, the samus matchup is super ****in lame. I really hate campy ass matchups like sheik, samus, etc.

 

[Coastward]

my training partner plays samus, so i feel pretty comfortable in the MU.

the only thing that really makes me hate the MU is you have to really make sure that your recovery is on-point. its really hard to dodge missiles offstage obviously, but you gotta try your best to avoid em. once you get to the ledge, it becomes even harder. she has way too many moves to throw out that can get you right under the ledge, above the ledge and even behind her if you manage to roll onstage. you always have to mix it up and make sure your DI is in and up.

and yeah, linguini has the best idea on the matchup with just getting underneath her. also ftilt clanks with missiles too btw.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Basically every move you have clanks with missiles lol. And yea, like linguini said, you definitely wanna keep samus above you as much as possible (like every character, really). Just be careful and don't assume that an up air is free because she can always drop bombs to stall and mess up your spacing (marths will sometimes do this with side-b). I like to do an empty jump to fake her out because, usually, they will drop a bomb and then you can see her "true" height (i.e. where you need to place your uair).

edit (unrelated): We also need to see a jason ganon ditto.

Yoon vs. Grice.

 

[Superspright]

my training partner plays samus, so i feel pretty comfortable in the MU.

the only thing that really makes me hate the MU is you have to really make sure that your recovery is on-point. its really hard to dodge missiles offstage obviously, but you gotta try your best to avoid em. once you get to the ledge, it becomes even harder. she has way too many moves to throw out that can get you right under the ledge, above the ledge and even behind her if you manage to roll onstage. you always have to mix it up and make sure your DI is in and up.

and yeah, linguini has the best idea on the matchup with just getting underneath her. also ftilt clanks with missiles too btw.

Why is no one on board with just simply power-shielding them? They are very easy to powershield if you are dashing away and use that sweet disjointed reflector shield to send them back. I like to use it sometimes to get some unique pressure. I use c-stick to buffer OoS so I can either wavedash back or just waveland behind her and score a grab if I can. It doesn't work as well on the very low missles, but anything higher it's easier.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

i powershield missiles, but only when i'm running towards them and i'm in their face. doesn't really serve a purpose to do it from afar because it'll just fizzle out. like i was saying before, if it's coming from far away, it's better to just down-b into it to get across the stage. trust me on this. try it, guys! samus is pretty free for ganondorf imo.

and @ -ACE- you can totally play lazily vs samus. i promise. i know this because whenever i play vs samus i'm already asleep by the second stock...

 

[Coastward]

Why is no one on board with just simply power-shielding them? They are very easy to powershield if you are dashing away and use that sweet disjointed reflector shield to send them back. I like to use it sometimes to get some unique pressure. I use c-stick to buffer OoS so I can either wavedash back or just waveland behind her and score a grab if I can. It doesn't work as well on the very low missles, but anything higher it's easier.

 

[-ACE-]

Ian I think I just get bored and lose motivation to stay focused (unless it's tournament). The samus mu is like driving on an interstate in the midwest, lmao. Just the same sh*t over and over.

hahahaha coast. Tell me you made that.

 

[cptjiggles69]

Coast don't get too comfortable tthough. After all it is your training partner and yeah you may have picked up on her tricks but you still have to work hard to not get missile spamed and such. I feel getting her up in the air should be a major goal, less options. (Besides bombs). Watch out for up b out of shield!

my training partner plays samus, so i feel pretty comfortable in the MU.

the only thing that really makes me hate the MU is you have to really make sure that your recovery is on-point. its really hard to dodge missiles offstage obviously, but you gotta try your best to avoid em. once you get to the ledge, it becomes even harder. she has way too many moves to throw out that can get you right under the ledge, above the ledge and even behind her if you manage to roll onstage. you always have to mix it up and make sure your DI is in and up.

and yeah, linguini has the best idea on the matchup with just getting underneath her. also ftilt clanks with missiles too btw.[/quote

 

[cptjiggles69]

I have yet to see triple missile cancels though like the speed machine samus combo video

 

[n0ne]

I have yet to see triple missile cancels though like the speed machine samus combo video

Power shielding missiles i feel is just not worth it when u can just jab em

 

[-ACE-]

@Pluplue I see you lurking, this Ganon vs samus discussion is officially legit. Lol

 

[Superspright]

Try dashing away and then shielding--also use the trigger glitch to make it easier. You have like 6 frames to time it...more than enough. I use the same technique to powershield turnips/pills easily.

Also, @none

I wouldn't powershield a far missle. Just the one I suspect will be followed up after with a grab when I shield. Most of the time I'd stuff missles with aerials/tilts or avoid them all together. They aren't that good IMO.

 

[Divinokage]

@Pluplue I see you lurking, this Ganon vs samus discussion is officially legit. Lol

Not that he minds that much.. he'll just keep shooting missiles. lol.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Ian I think I just get bored and lose motivation to stay focused (unless it's tournament). The samus mu is like driving on an interstate in the midwest, lmao. Just the same sh*t over and over.

As a Chicago native who goes to school at the University of Illinois (3 hour drive downstate), I can confirm that this analogy is one of the most accurate smash analogies I've heard thus far.

Corn, soybeans, and the occasional miniature "town" that doesn't even have a gas station... you feel like you're gonna get murdered. Seriously.