Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[cptjiggles69]

@ Coastward n0ne beat weon with ganon? Yeah he seems pretty good . Found a few videos and dam he is good

@ Эикельманн [РУС] the more i watch your ganon the more i love it. Its pretty solid and i believe soon to be one of the top ganons. I want to see an upset on top players bro! Just like amsa... Pray to win

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

@ Coastward n0ne beat weon with ganon? Yeah he seems pretty good . Found a few videos and dam he is good

@ Эикельманн [РУС] the more i watch your ganon the more i love it. Its pretty solid and i believe soon to be one of the top ganons. I want to see an upset on top players bro! Just like amsa... Pray to win

it's hard in this state. everyone is sooooo ****ing good against ganondorf v_v

 

[RedmanSSBM]

There's a Falco in my area that I still have a lot of trouble taking games off of. I was only able to take one game off of him today, and that was the first game that I played against his Falco. On FD.

I played like 4 times in a row on PS and just kept getting 3-stocked. I kept putting myself under Falco so that he could dair me, but at least I dealt with lasers a bit better, by running in, shielding just as the laser comes out, and then wavedashing back into a jab or ftilt. I still have a dumb problem of getting around Falco. He's a very vertically based character and lacks horizontal power besides lasers (which can easily be dealt with).

Grabs are really important. Getting a grab means that I should always get some sort of conversion and to not miss. I find myself very often missing my fair when I read he wants to get away from me. I also keept getting hit by his side-b onto the stage unless I just flat-out predict that he is going to side-b onto the stage. You would think with me playing against Falco so much that I'd be able to take some games, but he still manages to hit me with real basic bread and butter Falco moves like dash-attack into dair or doing the shine after he dairs my shield. I try to stay in my shield sometimes but then I just freeze up and then roll or I jump out and get hit. I'm just really bad at getting hit out of shield. My tilts have gotten better, and I've gotten a bit more proficcient on the edge, but I still get too focused on wanting to hit Falco and then I just get put into another combo and I have to DI down and away and just go for the ledge or something.

I just want to level up. I'm tired of staying in the same place.

 

[Coastward]

There's a Falco in my area that I still have a lot of trouble taking games off of. I was only able to take one game off of him today, and that was the first game that I played against his Falco. On FD.

I played like 4 times in a row on PS and just kept getting 3-stocked. I kept putting myself under Falco so that he could dair me, but at least I dealt with lasers a bit better, by running in, shielding just as the laser comes out, and then wavedashing back into a jab or ftilt. I still have a dumb problem of getting around Falco. He's a very vertically based character and lacks horizontal power besides lasers (which can easily be dealt with).

Grabs are really important. Getting a grab means that I should always get some sort of conversion and to not miss. I find myself very often missing my fair when I read he wants to get away from me. I also keept getting hit by his side-b onto the stage unless I just flat-out predict that he is going to side-b onto the stage. You would think with me playing against Falco so much that I'd be able to take some games, but he still manages to hit me with real basic bread and butter Falco moves like dash-attack into dair or doing the shine after he dairs my shield. I try to stay in my shield sometimes but then I just freeze up and then roll or I jump out and get hit. I'm just really bad at getting hit out of shield. My tilts have gotten better, and I've gotten a bit more proficcient on the edge, but I still get too focused on wanting to hit Falco and then I just get put into another combo and I have to DI down and away and just go for the ledge or something.

I just want to level up. I'm tired of staying in the same place.

everyone wants to improve, it takes a long ass time to be REALLY good though.

i've finally felt how much i've leveled up after last night. even though it was project m, i beat two people who always kicked my ass and got 4th, and i havent touched that game in 2 months.

you put a lot of dedication in though, so dont get discouraged.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

if i can level up, anyone can.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

so i'm at a tournament today and oh my ****ing god @ L Linguini you were right about FD, sooooooo good for ganondorf. i played harriet and beat him in tournament on it....twice!!!! in two different sets!!!! also beat smilez on it. **** YESSSSSS I DID IT <3 CONQUERED FD *****ESSSSSSS

what characters were you playing against? how did you play without using platforms? i've been thinking about how fd is underrated for a little bit now so i'm really curious.

 

[Divinokage]

Nice getting that recognition fellas.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

also while i'm at it, i've done some practice lately and have a few questions:

1. i've been trying to get down full hop bair to falling bair without using my double jump. i just can't seem to time it right. am i supposed to be doing the first bair asap out of my jump? or is there another timing to it?

2. i can do full hop bair/uair to double jump bair/uair with a falling uair/nair. but i can't do this with a full hop dair. again, should i be doing the dair immediately out of my full hop? or is there another timing to it?

3. what controls do you guys use to do ledgehop uair regrab?

4. i've been having difficulty with space animal edge guards lately. see i can edge guard spacies that form habits and recover the same way, but it's really hard when they mix it up well, i just feel like i have to guess and don't really know how to cover all the options. really it's covering the side-b option before they up-b. as soon as the spacie up-bs i just go offstage and cover all the angles with a uair/bair. but i have to wait for them to do the up-b and they'll sometimes just side-b sooner than expected and i won't be ready. and when i am ready, i'll cover it but i won't be able to get to them while they up-b. basically, i just need a formula for edge guarding space animals and i don't have it.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

what characters were you playing against? how did you play without using platforms? i've been thinking about how fd is underrated for a little bit now so i'm really curious.

fox and falco. good neutral game choices and good, fluid movements. chaingrabbed the **** out of them lol

 

[Blea Gelo]

Lol all these scrubs are more daring in 2014. Get good, hold dat ****.

Lol. U r so free dude. Just watch

 

[Divinokage]

Lol. U r so free dude. Just watch

Oh? Any time, any place, any amount!

 

[-ACE-]

so i'm at a tournament today and oh my ****ing god @ L Linguini you were right about FD, sooooooo good for ganondorf. i played harriet and beat him in tournament on it....twice!!!! in two different sets!!!! also beat smilez on it. **** YESSSSSS I DID IT <3 CONQUERED FD *****ESSSSSSS

Dude FD is quite doable. Been saying it for years. You have the tools now to turn it more so in your favor. Really, really good **** beating Harriet man. Hardly anyone knows how good he is vs ganon. Congrats!

*** You do not need to be a top Ganon to play FD well guys. You just need a few key skills in your skill set and an open mind.

Oh? Any time, any place, any amount!

Miami 2 weeks? Come get your $200 MM from me

 

[Gliffie]

Can I get some critique for my ****ty Ganon? Aside from the obvious blunders (missed l-cancels, always teching in, using wizard's foot about 10 times too many, being a salty little *****), the thing I'm looking to improve the most is approaching. As you can see I'm just spamming fairs and getting lucky when it hits. I hate realizing mid game that I have no idea how to get in, so how do I fix that? (asides from picking another character)

http://www.twitch.tv/smashnorge/b/563429164 at about 4:24:30

 

[Coastward]

should be playing a lot on stream today http://www.twitch.tv/evenmatchupgaming

 

[X WaNtEd X]

*** You do not need to be a top Ganon to play FD well guys. You just need a few key skills in your skill set and an open mind

could you guys expand a bit? all i'm hearing is "fd is good if you play well" and that's just not very helpful. fluid movement and a good neutral are things you should have on any stage.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Played Pseudo in a Dorf ditto during pools! Was fun watching you wreck all those Foxes. Your wavelands are so smooth and I even caught you doin them reverse ledge dashes.

Had a great time in our matches too! It's always good getting to see the new blood. Keep up the good work, man. Your ganon was also looking pretty nice. Couple more months and fox will be part of your daily breakfast routine as well

 

[-ACE-]

could you guys expand a bit? all i'm hearing is "fd is good if you play well" and that's just not very helpful. fluid movement and a good neutral are things you should have on any stage.

It's a way of approaching fighting spacies, namely falco. It's the way Ganon should always fight falco, and once you realize how to play this way, FD is no longer a problem. I've said enough on FD already, pled my case, it's time for people to actually start practicing there. Even if you give up on FD again eventually you will go back and see big improvements in your ground game as far as anti approach tactics and techchasing.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

You know, I've never meant FD is necessarily a "bad" stage. I think its all just style and preference. Linguini loves it, kage hates it. I personally hate it because my style is very fast and waveland-y and fd hinders that by quite a bit. If you play a smarter and more grounded dorf than I do, you'd probably do well.

Serious question though that I'd like an answer to... How on earth do you fight falco on fd?? I can't get around those lasers at all. What ends up happening is I get lasered and dair'd while in hitstun from the lasers. If I put up my shield, I can roll (which is pretty good), but the situation just resets and I eat more lasers. I can't approach and every time I try to bait an approach, i just get hit. I recently beat a decent falco in tournament, but he demolished me in his counterpick when I didn't ban fd

 

[Divinokage]

You know, I've never meant FD is necessarily a "bad" stage. I think its all just style and preference. Linguini loves it, kage hates it. I personally hate it because my style is very fast and waveland-y and fd hinders that by quite a bit. If you play a smarter and more grounded dorf than I do, you'd probably do well.

Serious question though that I'd like an answer to... How on earth do you fight falco on fd?? I can't get around those lasers at all. What ends up happening is I get lasered and dair'd while in hitstun from the lasers. If I put up my shield, I can roll (which is pretty good), but the situation just resets and I eat more lasers. I can't approach and every time I try to bait an approach, i just get hit. I recently beat a decent falco in tournament, but he demolished me in his counterpick when I didn't ban fd

I wish I could answer you but I always ban FD in tournament and it's also my worse matchup. I find Fox easier to fight than Falco because I'm used to playing footsies without having to worry about a projectile. And also I don't think I've ever beat Bam against his Falco on FD, I can't do it.. lol. 0% win rate.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

I think I've figured that if you can deal with Falco's lasers really well, he really doesn't have any other good tools to approach you horizontally. Falco is really good at approaching vertically with his dair for instance, but when you remove his ability to use lasers (you make him scared to shoot lasers cause he isn't getting anything out of them) then Falco really struggles on FD since he has no platforms to retreat to and use his bair. You gotta wavedash in between the lasers and wavedash out of your shield when the laser hits your shield. Don't try to challenge Falco when he is in the air, it will never work out for you. If you wait for him to land and then attack/grab him, watch out for the shine or spot-dodge. Chances are the falco won't know waht to do after the shine or spot dodge besides jumping again, and that's how you put pressure on the Falco. By just straight up beating him with your upair and getting grabs. Watch for when Falco lands and try to get away from him until you deal with lasers pretty well. You can tech-chase the **** out of Falco on FD and get him off stage for a pretty easy edge-guard.

 

[Blea Gelo]

Oh? Any time, any place, any amount!

Good. See u that day

 

[s0teric]

Hey all new ganon here. Check out my suggestion thread concerning videos on the ganon boards. I would also like to know the answers to wanted's questions. He kind of got overlooked amidst the fighting, it seems.

Edit: Specifically, these questions:

also while i'm at it, i've done some practice lately and have a few questions:

1. i've been trying to get down full hop bair to falling bair without using my double jump. i just can't seem to time it right. am i supposed to be doing the first bair asap out of my jump? or is there another timing to it?

2. i can do full hop bair/uair to double jump bair/uair with a falling uair/nair. but i can't do this with a full hop dair. again, should i be doing the dair immediately out of my full hop? or is there another timing to it?

3. what controls do you guys use to do ledgehop uair regrab?

4. i've been having difficulty with space animal edge guards lately. see i can edge guard spacies that form habits and recover the same way, but it's really hard when they mix it up well, i just feel like i have to guess and don't really know how to cover all the options. really it's covering the side-b option before they up-b. as soon as the spacie up-bs i just go offstage and cover all the angles with a uair/bair. but i have to wait for them to do the up-b and they'll sometimes just side-b sooner than expected and i won't be ready. and when i am ready, i'll cover it but i won't be able to get to them while they up-b. basically, i just need a formula for edge guarding space animals and i don't have it.

 

[-ACE-]

Lasers are only a huge deal if you haven't closed any space yet. Powershielding lasers is underused, but not absolutely crucial. Once you get inside, you must play a highly reactive anti - approach game, essentially creating a wall, with your jabs, ftilts, and uair (primarily) that creates techchasing situations out of what was neutral game seconds before. That's the gist Imo joe, aside from the chaingrab.

 

[spider_sense]

LOL Foh @ Blea Gelo Don't worry, I know that you know your day is coming, you know I'm getting closer and that scares you. Anyways, wavedashing out of shield really helps vs the lasers, especially if you can get a powershield game going. It's typically best to keep track of the lasers that way you won't feel or get overwhelmed. Falco can only shoot 1-2 at a time. Short hop uair prevents Falco's from jumping so he can't laser whenever he feels like it. Jab works wonders up close as well because it keeps him pinned in his shield and unable to do retaliate (unless he shines out of shield which can become predictable)

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

Can I get some critique for my ****ty Ganon? Aside from the obvious blunders (missed l-cancels, always teching in, using wizard's foot about 10 times too many, being a salty little *****), the thing I'm looking to improve the most is approaching. As you can see I'm just spamming fairs and getting lucky when it hits. I hate realizing mid game that I have no idea how to get in, so how do I fix that? (asides from picking another character)

http://www.twitch.tv/smashnorge/b/563429164 at about 4:24:30

you and @dERO! are the only euro ganondorfs left so i'll do everything in my power to help you improve. har du facebook?

 

[Divinokage]

LOL Foh @ Blea Gelo Don't worry, I know that you know your day is coming, you know I'm getting closer and that scares you. Anyways, wavedashing out of shield really helps vs the lasers, especially if you can get a powershield game going. It's typically best to keep track of the lasers that way you won't feel or get overwhelmed. Falco can only shoot 1-2 at a time. Short hop uair prevents Falco's from jumping so he can't laser whenever he feels like it. Jab works wonders up close as well because it keeps him pinned in his shield and unable to do retaliate (unless he shines out of shield which can become predictable)

Only shine OOS? Eh? Pretty sure they can aerial OOS then get you to shield instead. Jab isn't safe on shield.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

To answer Wanted's questions:

1. You can do two bairs in one full hop. You just have to bair the moment you leave the ground.
2. It is impossible to full-hop dair into an upair without double jumping.
3. That's a frame 1 input and I used to do it my hitting away on c-stick to let go of ledge, hitting up on control stick to jump, and hit Z while holding up to upair, all in a 2 frame span. But realistically, I'll upair onto the stage and l-cancel it.
4. If you can get to a platform, you can drop through and bair or uair to hit the side-b nonsense. If you can't get to a platform in time, if they side-b onstage, you can CC that **** and then grab the spacie, or bair him back off the stage. If he goes for the sweetspot and you can't reach a platform above the ledge in time, or you're on FD, then just run up to the ledge and put out a low-angled ftilt.

How do you guys do your instant uairs off the ground? I'm finding the timing I'm doing it just barely a little too far off the ground, and it can't hit Fox consistently.

 

[spider_sense]

Only shine OOS? Eh? Pretty sure they can aerial OOS then get you to shield instead. Jab isn't safe on shield.

No. Jab will flat out beat it or trade.

 

[Divinokage]

No. Jab will flat out beat it or trade.

Beat what? If you jab a shield, they have time to shield grab if you are too close. Falcon can Nair OOS a shielded jab so why shouldn't a spacie be able to aerial OOS as well? I get baited so many times to jab a shield then you get ****ed up.

 

[spider_sense]

Beat what? If you jab a shield, they have time to shield grab if you are too close. Falcon can Nair OOS a shielded jab so why shouldn't a spacie be able to aerial OOS as well? I get baited so many times to jab a shield then you get ****ed up.

Why would you let yourself get that close in the first place? Ok, even if you were close enough to get shield grabbed another jab will fix that real quick. Ganon's jab comes out on frames 4-5. Which is pretty quick considering that shines out on 1-2 frames. Even Falcon's nair gets stuffed pretty easily by jab (again, assuming he's stuck in his shield). I've done it numerous times before, you just have to either mash jab or anticipate an aerial oos, but it really should trade or just beat it. :/

 

[Divinokage]

Why would you let yourself get that close in the first place? Ok, even if you were close enough to get shield grabbed another jab will fix that real quick. Ganon's jab comes out on frames 4-5. Which is pretty quick considering that shines out on 1-2 frames. Even Falcon's nair gets stuffed pretty easily by jab (again, assuming he's stuck in his shield). I've done it numerous times before, you just have to either mash jab or anticipate an aerial oos, but it really should trade or just beat it. :/

That doesnt make any sense.. frame wise if you have time for a 2nd jab after getting the first one shielded then that means your opponent ****ed up. It's really fast yes in the startup but it has a lot of recovery, though not many characters can punish a shielded jab. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxhO573N3xs#t=229 All you can really do there is basically shield to not get hit again.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Ganon's jab comes out on frames 4-5. :/

It comes out on frame 3 actually. I'm pretty sure at least.

 

[Superspright]

You're right, it does.

 

[spider_sense]

My bad, you're right. It's a little faster. 3-5 frame startup. Also, Kage that includes Falco (maybe not Fox) and possibly the majority of the cast. Like you said, it's pretty hard to punish especially if it's spaced appropriately. But like I said, it should just trade with Falco if anything. I think maybe the best aerial he can do oos is possibly retreating dair.

 

[Divinokage]

My bad, you're right. It's a little faster. 3-5 frame startup. Also, Kage that includes Falco (maybe not Fox) and possibly the majority of the cast. Like you said, it's pretty hard to punish especially if it's spaced appropriately. But like I said, it should just trade with Falco if anything. I think maybe the best aerial he can do oos is possibly retreating dair.

Cross up dair should work if you are forced to shield in that position but ya its also risky for them to do at lower % because im pretty sure you have time to CC as well just in case since their only option are early aerials not late ones. But ya Falcon definitely does Nair in place OOS to avoid getting punished too.

 

[s0teric]

I think kage is right, the entire jab animation takes 21 frames. It may hit on frame 3-5, but if hit on shield, wouldn't the opponent have 16-18 frames to punish? Considering that falcon's nair hits on frame 7, it would seem that jab on shield is punishable.

Edit: Well It's interruptible at frame 19, so the window is 2 frames smaller, but the point stands. Although to clarify, spider sense, are you referring to punishing an aerial out of shield? or actually jabbing the shield? Because that makes a difference.

Imo, that was the misunderstanding. Just anticipate the aerial oos, kage, and jab it. That's what I think was meant.

 

[Divinokage]

I think kage is right, the entire jab animation takes 21 frames. It may hit on frame 3-5, but if hit on shield, wouldn't the opponent have 16-18 frames to punish? Considering that falcon's nair hits on frame 7, it would seem that jab on shield is punishable.

Edit: Well It's interruptible at frame 19, so the window is 2 frames smaller, but the point stands. Although to clarify, spider sense, are you referring to punishing an aerial out of shield? or actually jabbing the shield? Because that makes a difference.

Imo, that was the misunderstanding. Just anticipate the aerial oos, kage, and jab it. That's what I think was meant.

Ya thats the only logical conclusion, it can definitely trade for sure I agree since you'll be far enough where the jump doesnt put Falco in range where he can avoid the jab but somehow i can only see that working with the maximum range jab.

 

[Coastward]

just played the best tournament of my life.

got 9th and learned a lot of **** that i need to do to to improve my defensive game, some of the stuff you guys are talking about now helps with that.

gonna get some videos up soon to showcase my improvement.

quick questions though:
1) how can you avoid getting faired by falcon after up throw? i tried everything and i couldnt avoid it

2) is it possible to crouch cancel falco's dair approach and punish with jab?

 

[RedmanSSBM]

just played the best tournament of my life.

got 9th and learned a lot of **** that i need to do to to improve my defensive game, some of the stuff you guys are talking about now helps with that.

gonna get some videos up soon to showcase my improvement.

quick questions though:
1) how can you avoid getting faired by falcon after up throw? i tried everything and i couldnt avoid it

2) is it possible to crouch cancel falco's dair approach and punish with jab?

Good stuff dude. Tried watching you on stream but you were only playing pools at the time and the stream was laggy.

To answer your questions:

1. Pretty sure that junk is guaranteed at high percent. Ganon can't do anything but pray and hope Falcon ****s up.
2. I ****ing wish this was true. But even at 0%, dair can't be CCed cause it puts you into too much stun for you to do anything. The move is too ****ing good. You can CC nair though.

 

[Divinokage]

Good stuff dude. Tried watching you on stream but you were only playing pools at the time and the stream was laggy.

To answer your questions:

1. Pretty sure that junk is guaranteed at high percent. Ganon can't do anything but pray and hope Falcon ****s up.
2. I ****ing wish this was true. But even at 0%, dair can't be CCed cause it puts you into too much stun for you to do anything. The move is too ****ing good. You can CC nair though.

You cannot CC dair if they do it properly indeed. And ya upthrow to knee is guaranteed on Ganon at higher % tough ****, don't get grabbed. lol.