Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[RedmanSSBM]

I go for the full on smash DI with the control stick. It catches a lot more moves and it's easier for me to do oddly enough.

 

[-ACE-]

yep, asdi will get you by for the most part. It all depends on how close you are to the stage and what move is hitting you. I like to slam the control sick in and immediately roll to up for a walltech, and just slam it in fit a regular tech. I use the c-stick too sometimes if I can think of it lol

 

[PseudoTurtle]

I usually just always push R after I up-b anyway and then try to go for that full smash di. But, Like Renth said, teching peach's dsmash is super easy, no smash di necessary because the first hit knocks you directly into the stage. Peach is one of those matchups that I'm still learning, I just can't seem to get the hang of it. Whenever a peach comes at me with a turnip and I'm in my shield, I pretty much always just die lol. I'm gonna be on stream this Wednesday (hopefully), so I should be able to get some good matches in.

TM, nice. You're definitely a different man than the one I played at big house. You should think about coming out to EXPosure on the 30th

 

[X WaNtEd X]

I actually had no idea about the asdi or the 20 frames to tech on. good stuff.

tm I think that your biggest problem in that peach mu was fundamentals, spacing, and lack of edgeguards. Sometimes when you got a dthrow uair, you would just start dash dancing or wavelanding after without really trying to follow up again. Basically, when peach is in the air and under you, she is your *****! If she manages to get on a platform, be careful of throwing the uair because of dsmash but you can often bait out the dsmash and punish. This peach didn't really do that too much but I guess she didn't really have the option too often.

I'm not the greatest ganon in the world, but the peach mu is probably my best. Whenever I play a peach, I try to invade her space and prevent as many turnips as possible. I think you could benefit from doing this since you struggled against her turnip game. You don't necessarily always have to be applying direct pressure. What you should do is try to stay in proximity of her; be close enough so you can pop something off real quick to punish a mistake.

One last thing, start doing double jump aerials more often. By this I mean full hop bair to second jump bair for example. It works really well against peach because they will often think they can hit you with a nair real quick after the first aerial but will fall for your trap. If you hit the first aerial you can land the second at certain percentages and depending on the moves. I love abusing this ganon mechanic against floaties.

 

[Renth]

After you full-press L or R, there is a 20-frame tech window. After this window, there are 20 more frames before you can tech again. Full-pressing L or R during the 20 frames after the tech window will prevent you from teching for another 40 frames.

 

[Coastward]

ok so i'm putting together a little mini guide for ganondorf, i actually wouldn't call it mini since theres a **** ton of stuff already.

i'm making it mostly for me because i find that i learn things better when i write things down, so this gives me an opportunity to learn for myself while at the same time teaching others. i'm also gonna compile a lot of the stuff that's already been posted on the ganon forums so that new players don't have to open 10 different threads to learn different things. also stealing some **** from you renth lol, too much good stuff to pass up.

i'm gonna aim to finish it by tomorrow night. i'll show you guys it and maybe we can all work on it. we can make it like, the ganondorf mega library.

 

[Bizzarro Flame]

got 13th in singles at said tournament, losing to ÜberIce in winners round 4 and to RockCrock in losers round 6. the ganondorf dittos with rock were literally hit for hit, as cliché as that may sound, but he clutched it out 2-0.

i can never pull through and beat the relevant players. i'm soooooo close. i can feel the breakthrough coming.

and i got absolutely trashed by über lmao he has so much ganondorf exp and i have 0 ICs exp. really need some pointers for that matchup from people that have the experience. BIZZ I SUMMON YOU.

I don't get it, why do you have trouble with the match-up? The main thing is not to get grabbed. You can bait ICs onto the platform by platform camping. ICs suck in the air and their air-game is horrible in the neutral phase of the match. Never miss your l-cancels and you should be fine. Edgeguard with b-airs all day son!

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

I don't get it, why do you have trouble with the match-up? The main thing is not to get grabbed. You can bait ICs onto the platform by platform camping. ICs suck in the air and their air-game is horrible in the neutral phase of the match. Never miss your l-cancels and you should be fine. Edgeguard with b-airs all day son!

honestly it's probably not even that i'm bad at the matchup; i've pooped on various good ICs before over the past couple of years. however uber has so much ganondorf practice and his movements are so goddamn weird that i wasn't really sure what to do or how to adapt.

i didn't even get grabbed much. which makes it even worse :/

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Some things that I'm changing in the Falco matchup for myself:

- Instead of trying to go off-stage vs. Falco initially, anticipate that he will recover first with side-b whether it be back on stage or to get to the ledge. Use jab if he goes middle, down-angled ftilt if he goes for the edge, and upsmash or uair if he goes high. Down angled f-tilt definitely works for covering the edge. I have yet to get the jab one down and I've managed to get an upsmash from a high side-b but you have to see it coming.

- When you double jump above Falco and are coming straight down on top of him or at an angle, land next to him, as approaching from the top means Falco can easily use several different moves to counter you.

- Only at the beginning of the Falco/Fox falling animation should you ledge-hop upair if it looks like he will make it back on stage just barely with the up-b.

- Ledge-hop to down-b tends to beat out Falco's f-smash or at least clang. If it clangs, then react with a jab.

- If you grab the ledge and Falco makes it back by side-b, then ledge-hop uair.

 

[Coastward]

alright guys, got 2nd at the weekly melee tournament we have in my area. time to lay down the videos and give you my thoughts.

http://www.twitch.tv/evenmatchupgaming/b/512038598
vs Marth @ 56:33
vs Link @ 1:06:15
vs Kirby @ 1:45:08, 2:30:22, 2:45:17, 2:56:26 (DEFINITELY WATCH THE LAST KIRBY MATCH IT WAS HYPE)
vs Sheik @ 2:37:50, 2:52:48

so i was feeling pretty strong with what i learned from saturday, i was beating people pretty solidly that i usually had trouble with. i only really lost to TO Joe because i dont really know the kirby MU and sheik is an asshole. but real talk, i couldve DI'd better, punished harder and spaced better. TO Joe definitely handles nerves better than i do since it comes with the experience, but its all good. i took some knowledge with me today.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

Some things that I'm changing in the Falco matchup for myself:

- Instead of trying to go off-stage vs. Falco initially, anticipate that he will recover first with side-b whether it be back on stage or to get to the ledge. Use jab if he goes middle, down-angled ftilt if he goes for the edge, and upsmash or uair if he goes high. Down angled f-tilt definitely works for covering the edge. I have yet to get the jab one down and I've managed to get an upsmash from a high side-b but you have to see it coming.

- When you double jump above Falco and are coming straight down on top of him or at an angle, land next to him, as approaching from the top means Falco can easily use several different moves to counter you.

- Only at the beginning of the Falco/Fox falling animation should you ledge-hop upair if it looks like he will make it back on stage just barely with the up-b.

- Ledge-hop to down-b tends to beat out Falco's f-smash or at least clang. If it clangs, then react with a jab.

- If you grab the ledge and Falco makes it back by side-b, then ledge-hop uair.

1. i wouldn't use upsmash. don't forget eddie spike vs phantasm.

3. don't forget to keep it simple. if refreshing invincibility frames briefly before the end of their up-b animation would work, do that instead of hitting them.

4. idk how to picture this specific scenario you're throwing out there, but if they making it back to the stage via side-b then how would ledge-hop uair hit them? where on the stage are they supposed to be?

 

[RedmanSSBM]

1. i wouldn't use upsmash. don't forget eddie spike vs phantasm.

3. don't forget to keep it simple. if refreshing invincibility frames briefly before the end of their up-b animation would work, do that instead of hitting them.

4. idk how to picture this specific scenario you're throwing out there, but if they making it back to the stage via side-b then how would ledge-hop uair hit them? where on the stage are they supposed to be?

- I haven't tried using the uair spike v.s side-b because I think I've tried it before and I just get hit with the side-b or I trade, in which Falco still manages to recover or something. I'll probably give a shot more though.

- Why would refreshing invincibility help? Just cause you can do it? You're gonna hit him back off stage anyway, right?

- When Falco just barely lands on the stage after he side-b's he has landing lag and I can hit him with an upair.

___________Falco
---------------------------------]Ganondorf

^stage

He's not too far to hit him with an uair at this point.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

alright guys, got 2nd at the weekly melee tournament we have in my area. time to lay down the videos and give you my thoughts.

http://www.twitch.tv/evenmatchupgaming/b/512038598
vs Marth @ 56:33
vs Link @ 1:06:15
vs Kirby @ 1:45:08, 2:30:22, 2:45:17, 2:56:26 (DEFINITELY WATCH THE LAST KIRBY MATCH IT WAS HYPE)
vs Sheik @ 2:37:50, 2:52:48

so i was feeling pretty strong with what i learned from saturday, i was beating people pretty solidly that i usually had trouble with. i only really lost to TO Joe because i dont really know the kirby MU and sheik is an *******. but real talk, i couldve DI'd better, punished harder and spaced better. TO Joe definitely handles nerves better than i do since it comes with the experience, but its all good. i took some knowledge with me today.

Marth First Game: Honestly, it looked like the Marth didn't really adapt well and wasn't playing too well. It looked to me like you were just playing better than him. Though I should note that when you're above Marth, it's a good idea to not try and attack him from directly below, but instead try to fair him from the side (like you did) or to just get back down on the stage.

Second Game: Why didn't you ban FD? That is Ganon's worse stage so I can't really see why you didn't ban it. What did you ban instead? (Let me note that this commentator has no idea what he's talking about. Saying that platforms aren't good for Ganon and that there's a second Pokemon Stadium). Definitely start using uair when letting go of the ledge in order to hit Marth while he's recovering. If you refresh your invincibility here, you can get a free uair spike when he gets close cause not even his up-b will trade. A lot of the time you could have easily edgehogged Marth but opted to not stay on the ledge. Wavelanding back on stage vs. Marth isn't very good either cause he can just fsmash or do basically any move that will just knock you back off before you have time to get close enough for an ftilt or whatever you were going for. It's a really bad idea to try to hit Marth with a raw dair cause he can easily just utilt to counter that. The reason that one waveland to grab worked was because you did it right after he did a laggy move (fsmash). That's actually a good opportunity for that. Because this Marth didn't sweetspot properly all that much, you could have easily had your back facing the edge and just jump to and uair spike and then grab the ledge. The Marth has been side-bing the recover a lot, yet this time you didn't do the usual dair... maybe you messed up? There ya go... just grabbing the ledge.... nevermind. And then the disrespect.

Seriously though, that Marth was just bad. He was really hungry for grabs and his conversions weren't very good either. I think your side-b's and down-b's were a bit sporadic and random, which can work sometimes, but it's hella risky.

 

[Coastward]

Marth First Game: Honestly, it looked like the Marth didn't really adapt well and wasn't playing too well. It looked to me like you were just playing better than him. Though I should note that when you're above Marth, it's a good idea to not try and attack him from directly below, but instead try to fair him from the side (like you did) or to just get back down on the stage.

Second Game: Why didn't you ban FD? That is Ganon's worse stage so I can't really see why you didn't ban it. What did you ban instead? (Let me note that this commentator has no idea what he's talking about. Saying that platforms aren't good for Ganon and that there's a second Pokemon Stadium). Definitely start using uair when letting go of the ledge in order to hit Marth while he's recovering. If you refresh your invincibility here, you can get a free uair spike when he gets close cause not even his up-b will trade. A lot of the time you could have easily edgehogged Marth but opted to not stay on the ledge. Wavelanding back on stage vs. Marth isn't very good either cause he can just fsmash or do basically any move that will just knock you back off before you have time to get close enough for an ftilt or whatever you were going for. It's a really bad idea to try to hit Marth with a raw dair cause he can easily just utilt to counter that. The reason that one waveland to grab worked was because you did it right after he did a laggy move (fsmash). That's actually a good opportunity for that. Because this Marth didn't sweetspot properly all that much, you could have easily had your back facing the edge and just jump to and uair spike and then grab the ledge. The Marth has been side-bing the recover a lot, yet this time you didn't do the usual dair... maybe you messed up? There ya go... just grabbing the ledge.... nevermind. And then the disrespect.

Seriously though, that Marth was just bad. He was really hungry for grabs and his conversions weren't very good either. I think your side-b's and down-b's were a bit sporadic and random, which can work sometimes, but it's hella risky.

i feel more comfortable on FD than FoD(which i banned). yeah, i just mainly went to FD because i saw that he didn't really know what he should be doing and i just like the sapce that it gives, makes me feel safe. i also know that i need to work on my edgeguard game more, it's sorta what costed me matches that night and on the tourney i went to on saturday. i need to keep it more simple and just stick to the ledge like elmer's glue. and i was messing around a lot with the side b's that night, i wanna try putting them more to use but they're soooooooo risky.

thanks for the tips though

 

[RedmanSSBM]

i feel more comfortable on FD than FoD(which i banned). yeah, i just mainly went to FD because i saw that he didn't really know what he should be doing and i just like the sapce that it gives, makes me feel safe. i also know that i need to work on my edgeguard game more, it's sorta what costed me matches that night and on the tourney i went to on saturday. i need to keep it more simple and just stick to the ledge like elmer's glue. and i was messing around a lot with the side b's that night, i wanna try putting them more to use but they're soooooooo risky.

thanks for the tips though

Sure, you may feel comfortable on FD, but you're really limited on your movement options and what you can do in the neutral game. I'll agree that I tend to be comfortable on FD because I've played on it numerous times, but it's not optimal if you want to give yourself a good chance to win. A lot of the gimmicky movement options that you will have to use on FD can easily be countered by a lot of characters. In my opinion, always ban FD and avoid it in 2/3s. You'll likely be playing on FD in a 3/5, so it's good to at least be comfortable as to not be exploited. I think FoD is actually a good stage for Ganon because it's size is rather small and he can survive decently there. You can still use the top platform to your advantage. Infact, you might just want to abuse that top platform since it's the only one that's stable.

Edgeguarding is super important, even I don't have it down fully. It's good that you're aware that that's something that you should focus on. Just don't be too predictable and stay on the edge all the time. That will result in your opponent adapting and doing an early recovery or a higher one and then they have stage control instead of you. Ganon strives a lot on stage control. It's important to not lose it.

I tend to use side-b when I know the Marth is gonna fsmash (which can be really predictable, you get an instinct for it) side-b will pull you back and hit your opponent. It really should only be used as a mic-up/hard read. Yes, you can practice using it in friendlies, but unless you have total confidence in your reading comprehension, I'll advise against using it in tournament. Throwing out side-b's and down-b's in desperation can cost you the match.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Although FD is super bad for ganon, I think how comfortable you are on a given stage is a bigger factor to consider that definitely outweighs the objective advantage/disadvantage a given stage may or may not offer. For that reason, I actually ban dreamland before FD just because my movement on dreamland isn't perfect yet and my FD game is much better. But that will probably change as I improve.

The reason I like playing on FD despite it's many disadvantages is kinda the same reason I like playing Sheiks these days. My choice of viable options is limited so I know exactly what I'm going to do most of the time. I have a very specific game plan in mind and it's enjoyable to execute, even when I lose.

In other words, preference matters most up to a certain level. For example, if you're a ganon that sucks on yoshi's for some reason but you've read how awesome it is, avoid it until you've practiced more.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Although FD is super bad for ganon, I think how comfortable you are on a given stage is a bigger factor to consider that definitely outweighs the objective advantage/disadvantage a given stage may or may not offer. For that reason, I actually ban dreamland before FD just because my movement on dreamland isn't perfect yet and my FD game is much better. But that will probably change as I improve.

The reason I like playing on FD despite it's many disadvantages is kinda the same reason I like playing Sheiks these days. My choice of viable options is limited so I know exactly what I'm going to do most of the time. I have a very specific game plan in mind and it's enjoyable to execute, even when I lose.

In other words, preference matters most up to a certain level. For example, if you're a ganon that sucks on yoshi's for some reason but you've read how awesome it is, avoid it until you've practiced more.

I think it's the mindset that counts. If you want to concentrate on winning, like me, you'll want to go to the stages that you're character is good at and you'll want to find out exactly why Ganon is so good on that stage. I'm just starting to implement wavelanding on platforms more and I'm getting more comfortable with it, and I am seeing that Battlefield is such a good stage for Ganon. It will probably be even more apparent as I get more experience.

If you want to stay in your comfort zone, nothing wrong with that, but just keep in mind that it will hurt you in the long run.

 

[Linguini]

Ganon isn't really "bad" on fd, you just have to play different; i.e. have a strong ground game vs platform maneuvering on other levels. Idk, better to get good on it and ban another truly shi!t stage like FoD.

 

[Coastward]

linguini knows my feels

 

[iRanch]

Slowly getting more stream equipment. Gonna have some quality vids up soon 8|

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Linguini if we ever meet, I wanna money match you

 

[Superspright]

Ganon isn't really "bad" on fd, you just have to play different; i.e. have a strong ground game vs platform maneuvering on other levels. Idk, better to get good on it and ban another truly shi!t stage like FoD.

Why is FoD bad? His SH allows him to perfect waveland a lot of the heights, and he can FH waveland the platforms as well--he can edge-cancel easily on either side and do some jank edge-guard follow ups that he can't do anywhere else. Can you elucidate on why you think FoD is really that bad? Aside from being tough to ledgedash onto I think it's pretty solid for Ganondorf.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

wat. it's not tough to ledgedash onto.

platforms are dumb though. they kinda hinder edgeguarding and can really **** with you at times.

i think fd is definitely better in some matchups like vs peach, marth, in the ditto, or maybe even vs falco. but against falcon, shiek, and fox, i'm not digging it.

i'd say both stages CAN be good, but they can also be very bad.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

That's the only thing about FoD that I tend to dislike is when those platforms mess up when you're trying to do a jump set-up to edgeguard. In that siatuation, I'd try to stay on the ground and use ftilts or CC something. There's always around a problem.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Ian, I agree with every word of your post. **** FoD!

 

[Linguini]

To be honest, i'm extremely biased against FoD just because I hate moving platforms lol. I also detest DK64 for the same reason: Jank.

Been insta-banning it since 06 when fvcking mute city was legal

Going to try and win a sponsorship next month that would fund my trip to MLG. Time to stomp some ******!

 

[Superspright]

wat. it's not tough to ledgedash onto.

platforms are dumb though. they kinda hinder edgeguarding and can really **** with you at times.

i think fd is definitely better in some matchups like vs peach, marth, in the ditto, or maybe even vs falco. but against falcon, shiek, and fox, i'm not digging it.

i'd say both stages CAN be good, but they can also be very bad.

I'm pretty sure FoD is the only stage it requires frame perfect input to ledge-dash onto with full invincibility.

FoD is a better stage than you guys are giving it credit for. It's infinitely better than FD. He has more options there, more combos, and the stage is tight enough that if you can play on a smaller map you'll win. If it screws you up then it definitely screws up fox and falco trying to waveshine.

It's a stage you can waveland all the way across like battlefield as well. Plus, the platforms tend to stay in the position they rest at for at least a little while. Plus, I love double/triple uair edge-guarding.

 

[Coastward]

i think it's a thing in canada where FoD is always banned. never grew fond of it, it's just an annoying stage to play on. i'd rather play on poke floats tbh.

also, quick question. in my get up attack, there's frames before the actual attack where i have no invincibility. i'm assuming that i can get hit from my get up attack before the actual attack comes out correct?

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

idk about any of dat **** but i love floats lol

 

[X WaNtEd X]

I'm pretty sure FoD is the only stage it requires frame perfect input to ledge-dash onto with full invincibility.

FoD is a better stage than you guys are giving it credit for. It's infinitely better than FD. He has more options there, more combos, and the stage is tight enough that if you can play on a smaller map you'll win. If it screws you up then it definitely screws up fox and falco trying to waveshine.

It's a stage you can waveland all the way across like battlefield as well. Plus, the platforms tend to stay in the position they rest at for at least a little while. Plus, I love double/triple uair edge-guarding.

Again, preference matters more. I don't think anyone is arguing that FoD is objectively bad for ganon, people just have personal discomforts playing on it.

 

[Renth]

I use to hate FD more than anything, I like it now vs. marth and other neutral spacing match ups. I've never disliked FoD.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

I like FD ok vs. Marth and even vs. falcon as odd as that is. I'd actually much rather fight a falcon on FD than FoD, but that's just me. If, in tournament, I played vs a falcon and they banned yoshi's and I had just won on battlefield, I'd honestly probably take them to dreamland like bizzaro flame. I feel like those platforms are too easy for falcon to stomp through without punishment.

 

[Superspright]

His uair chains are real though, and your recovery sucks on there and his gets buffed. I'd go to FoD all day. He can't run around as much. I try to get over my preferences. I don't like FoD either--and I would avoid it if I could, but I am getting stronger on the stage so it is never a weak spot in my stage match ups.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

lol ain't no falcon tryna let you go to fountain. might as well forget about that.

 

[Superspright]

Bo5 they can eat a **** though.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Falcon dittos on FD though.

 

[Coastward]

im fiending for CEO now, i wanna play with everyone here.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

god damn i'm really getting discouraged about my falcon matchup now. the invincible edge stalls are really hard to deal with, especially when the falcon can literally move from the edge across half of battlefield invincible.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Just got back from a local tournament- placed 5th!
Kels
Oro?!
ORLY
Scythe (left early)
Me
Just out of the money. There were 29 people there and 5th place gets 5% if there are 30+... lol. But seriously, I played really, really well today. Got knocked out of losers by Oro. Those matches were recorded, I'll put a link up when they're uploaded. I had him first game, but I choked on an easy edge guard, messed up a dthrow, then got pretty discouraged and got messed up the 2nd game, and then pulled it back a little game 3, but still ended up losing. To many off stage renth-esque risks (called out ) that didn't work out too well.

Extreme nervous johns for my first time being on stream! It was fun though, I'm definitely cracking away at that glass ceiling.

 

[Renth]

haha you can call it out all you want, I mention many times in my match up break downs that i play like a ****** writing down information is to help stick it into my head and help myself learn not to do the things I want to do lol