Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[PseudoTurtle]

Lol well you can see for yourself what kind of dumb **** I did when the vids get posted. A lot of it was due to nervous johns about never having played on stream before, but I had a ton of fun and did some cool **** too. GG's to Oro, pretty cool set (even if I did get 3-0'd haha)

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

Bo5 they can eat a **** though.

that's assuming you ever gon get that far in bracket. this ain't europe


GOOD **** JOE!

 

[spider_sense]

I just saw the Renth character match up thread, it's pretty solid. However, I think we should really expound on Ganon's harder matchups. (Sheik, Puff, C. Falcon, Falco, Fox etc) I think Ice climbers/Ganon is 50-50. Just space fair and make sure to keep out of Popo's grab range. One of the ways to seperate them is side b or dair. Once you've gotten them separated go ape **** on Nana. I've seen way too many matches where that'll happen and the player will only hunt down Popo. Once Nana is out of the fray, the match up actually becomes much more lenient towards Ganon. Also try to avoid using moves with poor recovery such as down-b or downsmash (though you can immediately jab after downsmash to make the move relatively safer, this also applies to upsmash as well) Ice climbers pretty much boils down to Ganon keeping excellent spacing/zoning while not being overly aggressive, Ganon should try to refrain from trying to go in for grabs unless they are completely separated.


Protip: (If you can grab and hold Nana while Popo is trying to recover he won't be able to use his up b)

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Yoooo check it

http://www.twitch.tv/windycitysmash/b/512625048

Tech skill spam at 2:13, match at 2:14:25. The first match was really intense I JUST ****ED UP THAT GRAB UGHHH THAT'S NOT EVEN HARD. Here's what I noticed: My combo DI is ****. It's better in friendlies, but I panic DI'd and ended up getting comboed. I'm on platforms too much and I jump too much. The second match was a little ****ty- that being said I wanted to drop zone a fair rather than uair, which I think would've hit. Third match was kinda cool too, but I made too many small mistakes, which = a dead ganon.

Critique please! All help is appreciated!

Why did I not go for the RLD double uair third match?!?! Ahhhhh it would've hit and looked badass as ****

 

[Coastward]

Yoooo check it

http://www.twitch.tv/windycitysmash/b/512625048

Tech skill spam at 2:13, match at 2:14:25. The first match was really intense I JUST ****ED UP THAT GRAB UGHHH THAT'S NOT EVEN HARD. Here's what I noticed: My combo DI is ****. It's better in friendlies, but I panic DI'd and ended up getting comboed. I'm on platforms too much and I jump too much. The second match was a little ****ty- that being said I wanted to drop zone a fair rather than uair, which I think would've hit. Third match was kinda cool too, but I made too many small mistakes, which = a dead ganon.

Critique please! All help is appreciated!

Why did I not go for the RLD double uair third match?!?! Ahhhhh it would've hit and looked badass as ****

first match: you need to start DI'ing away during combos more. he was getting easy percentages on you and you were pretty much just letting him. just DI away from marth and making it hard for him to follow up. your recovery can be better too. when you used your up-b, you always aimed to go for the ledge even if you were high and far enough to go behind marth. because of that, marth kept killing you with easy fsmashes. i'm not saying that you can avoid that all the time, you're just giving him an easier opportunity to hit you with tippered fsmashes. and yeah you were jumping way too much, costed you the first match.

second match: this showed more of a better example of the way you were recovering, especially the first stock. nice shield drops. yeah what's really biting you in the ass is the DI. marth's getting so much percentage on you with all of those fairs. nice ledgehop > downb, good mixups from the ledge so that you dont become too predictable. not too much went on in this match.

third match: nice first stock. it was just fast and simple, if you were playing like that the whole time i think you coulda take the set of off oro. you're throwing out a lot of side-b's when you don't need to be either, you're giving yourself up for free. the second stock you lost was you being too fancy, if you just held ledge you would've had that stock. that's sorta the problem i have too. man you have sooooooo many opportunites to get stocks off of him with just a simple bair but you decide to do empty jumps or wavelands instead.

overall: work on the DI, choose your recovery options better, and keep it simple. don't flail around so much with random jumping. you're definitely trying to make your play look flashy but that cost you the set in the end, just keep it fast and simple. i think you need to work on your grab followups too but that's not too important compared to everything else i said. you're ganon is looking strong though, you had some really ****ing sweet edgeguards and short combos. just get that practice in and you'll beat him next time.

 

[Superspright]

god damn i'm really getting discouraged about my falcon matchup now. the invincible edge stalls are really hard to deal with, especially when the falcon can literally move from the edge across half of battlefield invincible.

So can we...

Second pro tip: If you can grab Popo while Nana is recovering she will sometimes get up attack you and grab release Popo to his death. :D

 

[Renth]

I just saw the Renth character match up thread, it's pretty solid. However, I think we should really expound on Ganon's harder matchups.

You obviously didn't pay attention to it because i'm doing all of those characters bitc h

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Anyone going to nsa2 in Boston next week? Hoping to see some fellow dark lords there

 

[RedmanSSBM]

I had an interesting idea:

What if at CEO, all the Ganon's got together and made a wicked tech skill video? Like having four of us at the same time on Dreamland in fixed-camera mode or something and just showing off pure tech skill.

I think it would make for a really interesting Tech Skill Video, plus I'd think it'd be hella fun.

Also, being inspired by the Falcon Round Robin at The Next Episode, how about a Ganondorf Round Robin at CEO? Who can style the most? Most Disrespect?

What do you guys think?

 

[Renth]

I am no longer attending CEO, I'd enjoy watching all of this happen though.

 

[Coastward]

wow renth NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

also ganon RR would be dope as ****

 

[Renth]

Eikelmann is better than me anyway

Enjoy your matches with him, he's very good at pretending to be me also so if you ask him to be me it'd be like playing me anyway.

 

[Coastward]

yo bizz went HAM at TNE this weekend

got 13th, losing to MacD. gotta get over the MacD wall and show norcal the true power. good stuff man.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

So can we...

true but that doesn't make it any easier dealing with falcon's. i'm playing a falcon these days that's one of the best players in western ny and he has some tricks that other falcons i play in and out of tournament don't use at all. aside from having a better punish game and extreme tech skill, this guy's defensive play is really what's killing me. when i get him offstage he comes back way too much. he generally will come high at first, but ff perfectly to avoid me when i cover the high option. he will then proceed to come out of the ff low and always gets the sweet spot. i'm always forced to do something reckless that will get me killed if i miss or be fast enough to get back with a reverse uair that covers the sweet spot. i sometimes am successful and can gimp, but he really makes me work for it.

the the biggest problem, however is dealing with him when he gets the ledge. it should still be an advantageous position for me, as i have stage control but it feels more like the neutral game again except if i approach he's going to punish me real bad. so while he's doing the ledge stall falcon stuff, i'm forced to sit back and space. if i get close, i eat an invincible gentleman to uthrow to uair string that i sometimes can't di out of. now, i never make the mistake of approaching, but i wish i had a way to keep him contained from these positions the way i can other characters and players. i watched some videos of top ganon vs falcon play and nothing is helping. the falcons i'm watching aren't doing these crazy shenanigans; they just simply come back on and the ganon has the advantage from what i'm seeing.

speaking of the invincible ledge stall, i actually can't do it yet. my hands aren't fast enough to get that backwards wd. i can only forward wd. i never drop that anymore and can use it well with jabs, shields, grabs, etc. when appropriate but i just can't seem to get that back wd. here's what i do for the normally do:

assuming on the right ledge here

-->, <-- + x, r + <-- angled down slightly

this is really easy for my fingers do fast now because i simply have to just shift the control stick down a bit to get that perfect wd. for the stall, i do the same thing but try to move the control stick back at just the precise time.

i'm not sure whether this is worth practicing to get down. i really have seen much application in the big named ganon sets. wding forward on stage when appropriate seems to be the option used most often.

 

[Superspright]

His tricks probably aren't real. I'd run up to the ledge and shield and WD back if he doesn't react to it then resume DDing on the stage. If he's going to keep ledge-stalling then simply jump before he drops and then wavedash turn around snag the ledge will destroy him. You can also do it the non-turn around way, but I like talking about style more than usefulness. :D

He has to commit to a timing of some sort once he touches ledge. Either he has to ledge-dash, reverse ledge-dash, or invincibly stall to keep all those options up. He can't just sit on the ledge and wait for you. I really doubt he'd stay there all day. I'd just stand there and not screw with it. Once he hits the ledge you have to stay focused on what he's doing after that. If he's just ledge stalling you can probably hit him out of it. He has to be frame perfect to do it every time, and I really doubt he practices it on brinstar under the lava or anything.

If you know what he's going to do then apply your knowledge into a sound option. If you know he'll simply FF past you then begin your FF a little sooner to beat his, and if he's going to sweetspot with his double jump then grab the ledge first once you read him going for the perfect sweetspot.

Also, I use c-stick for my ledge options, and I use control-stick for my stall since I want to FF immediately. C-stick for whatever reason seems to help me break up the actions more so I can do it more fluidly. I try to space out everything as much as I can across my fingers and hands.

From the right ledge I do this:

Yellow-C-stick ->
Jump+Gray-C-stick <-
L Button for wavedash

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

superspright do you have videos of yourself playing?

do you even play? lol

 

[iRanch]

I am no longer attending CEO, I'd enjoy watching all of this happen though.

Nooooooooooooooooooooooo



Got some pretty okay matches recorded in tournament today.
The only one that's up right now is a Ganon ditto with Eikelmann.
http://www.twitch.tv/taerknet/b/513676447?t=42m42s

 

[Coastward]

yo eikelmann with that revamped ganon profile pic

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

check out my tumblr for all of the best ganondorf art on the internet.

 

[Laharl's_Wrath]

maybe I'm just tired but I clicked the link in your sig and that doesnt look like english

 

[X WaNtEd X]

-snip-

dude his tricks are most definitely real, he has some pretty great success at tournaments up here. the thing is...that he actually does practice on brinstar lol. not really but he has something to examine his hitboxes, frames, etc. while he plays (whatever that is) so i've actually seen his frame perfection with the ledge stall first hand. he's just a really good technical falcon.

i've tried approaching with the shield. he always reacts with an invincible grab to uair and then a combo. and that full hop thing would never work in a million years lmao. i guess the problem is i have no way of predicting the way the neutral game will go from this position and being falcon, he gains an advantage from a seemingly disadvantageous position.

i guess i could cover all the option better when it comes to his recovery. he just has extremely good, subtle di for avoiding edgeguards and gimps. i'll just have to adapt.

i'll try your c-stick approach to the ledge. my only concern is that i still have to move the control stick all the way in the opposite direction angled slightly down this way. and that's what been stopping me before. but perhaps only have to perform to inputs with the control stick will make things easier regardless.

 

[Superspright]

I didn't mean approach with shield as in run to the ledge--run into ledge-hop knee/uair range but no closer. I'd never get close enough to get grabbed invincibly--he's very dangerous at the ledge. If you time it right you can just hold left or right and then input the wavedash. Holding slightly down may help? I'm not quite sure, I'd be afraid of killing myself like that personally.

I don't think anyone can really do the ledge-stall 100% perfect. If you haven't seen him do it under the lava then it's probably still close to 100% invincible since it's not that hard, but getting invincibility every time is not easy or reliable for CF. No one can do everything frame perfect all the time. But if you just assume he's going to do it perfect then I'd still just try to wait for his timing and try and snag ledge. Bait him like you're going for a uair and just grab the ledge instead. If he tries to go back to stage then ledge-dash back on and grab him and toss him off and edge-guard again. I'm not saying any of this is easy or anything and you should try to develop an intuition for it. I don't even play any CFs anymore really but that's kind of what I remember.

Also, where did I say to FH? I was talking about SHing next to the ledge and wavelanding into a ledge-grab to steal it from CF. You'd have to time it though, and make the hard read. But if you SH at the right distance away from the ledge you can react with Bair/Uair still. Honestly though CF at the ledge is not something to really screw with without getting a read. We can say the same for ourselves.

Does this CF have any videos up?

@Eikelman: I used to have videos up, but every time I get on the stream they seem to erase my part. Or they don't upload it or some bull**** happens. I had one video up for a little bit, and a few people watched it.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

I didn't mean approach with shield as in run to the ledge--run into ledge-hop knee/uair range but no closer. I'd never get close enough to get grabbed invincibly--he's very dangerous at the ledge. If you time it right you can just hold left or right and then input the wavedash. Holding slightly down may help? I'm not quite sure, I'd be afraid of killing myself like that personally.

I don't think anyone can really do the ledge-stall 100% perfect. If you haven't seen him do it under the lava then it's probably still close to 100% invincible since it's not that hard, but getting invincibility every time is not easy or reliable for CF. No one can do everything frame perfect all the time. But if you just assume he's going to do it perfect then I'd still just try to wait for his timing and try and snag ledge. Bait him like you're going for a uair and just grab the ledge instead. If he tries to go back to stage then ledge-dash back on and grab him and toss him off and edge-guard again. I'm not saying any of this is easy or anything and you should try to develop an intuition for it. I don't even play any CFs anymore really but that's kind of what I remember.

Also, where did I say to FH? I was talking about SHing next to the ledge and wavelanding into a ledge-grab to steal it from CF. You'd have to time it though, and make the hard read. But if you SH at the right distance away from the ledge you can react with Bair/Uair still. Honestly though CF at the ledge is not something to really screw with without getting a read. We can say the same for ourselves.

Does this CF have any videos up?

@Eikelman: I used to have videos up, but every time I get on the stream they seem to erase my part. Or they don't upload it or some bull**** happens. I had one video up for a little bit, and a few people watched it.

i'll probably try that trick next time we play, but i have a feeling he's going to catch me. i see people attempt similar things when he does the stall and he usually counters it.

here's a set about a month ago from this falcon. i was trying to find the video of him beating vanz but it's burried somewhere in twitch. this is a pretty decent set though.

http://www.twitch.tv/snowman/c/3774605

unfortunately, all the videos of him on youtube are not a good representation of him now since he's improved a lot since just about all of them were uploaded.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

maybe I'm just tired but I clicked the link in your sig and that doesnt look like english

it's not english. but the link to all the ganondorf stuff in my page is english.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

it's not english. but the link to all the ganondorf stuff in my page is english.

i actually looked through your sith art. i used to read star wars expanded universe comics as a kid so i'm p well versed with all the extraneous characters, especially the sith

 

[cptjiggles69]

does anyone know how the mirror match for ganon works? not sure what to do . I main ganon but if ganon comes in high with fair should i uair or diagonal tilt?

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

does anyone know how the mirror match for ganon works? not sure what to do . I main ganon but if ganon comes in high with fair should i uair or diagonal tilt?

if ganondorf comes in high with fair you uair the **** out of him lol

 

[Coastward]

then once hes on the ground you chaingrab them > bair.

then rinse and repeat.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

sick avatar dude. haven't seen that picture before.

 

[Superspright]

I just watched that CF, and I'm really not that impressed. I've played better Falcons on the Island. They don't miss tech-chases anywhere near as much, and edge-guards are just going to happen. Maybe he was having a bad day? He looked sloppy as hell and picked tons of bad options--missed tech chases--missed grabs... etc. If this guy is a big name or a big problem for you then you should just work on your tech. His tech sucks IMO. He just throws crap out and hopes it sticks. A smarter opponent will punish his playstyle. It's very haphazard and suboptimal. The only thing he's got really going for him is that he isn't stupid when it comes to shield pressure. He can actually deal with it [but who can't?]. It's really weird. He tech chases with side-b, and his timings are really off on a lot of stuff. I'm sorry but this is not even a mid-level Falcon IMO. He's fortunate that the Fox is so bad at edge-guarding and the game in general. There were plenty of times he could have just been shined right off the stage and then killed but that Fox has no idea how to edge-guard CF.

Btw 6:55-7:00

That's how you deal with it with virtually every character. Wait for him--bait him into coming back. He has less options than you think. I knew he wasn't doing anything special. Also his timings are completely off and he's vulnerable every single time I watched him do it. He's just too slow. Punch him with fair or uair edge-guard him.

Honestly though, if that Fox was good he would have lost that set without picking up a win. He dropped TONS of tech chases, and out where I live that would have resulted in a stock or half a stock each time.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

lmao the island? where are you from?

 

[X WaNtEd X]

You have really high standards dude. I'm beginning to wonder if you've actually been to tournaments. Because people make these mistakes even at the top of the top all the time. As said before, he beat Vanz so he's clearly doing something right. Jessie also just knows him really well because they play a lot I think so there was a lot of bull****.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

I hope you don't mean Long Island

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

superspright is likely a training mode warrior

 

[Renth]

superspright is likely a training mode warrior

He's a self-entitled egotistical clown douche who thinks he has the experience to back up the bull-****tery he says.

Where in reality, no one here has any idea who he is. No one has ever played him and he has zero videos so he has no credibility to back up the truck loud of bull **** he spews regularly. So, anyone who is new here he does indeed say things about the ganondorf match up that is accurate but he also goes into i'ma raging douche ****** mode in which case you can promptly ignore him.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

well said mark

 

[Coastward]

sick avatar dude. haven't seen that picture before.

LOL it was on your tumblr.

also im frauding out and picking up ics for falco for tournaments. still need more practice with that stupid ****ing bird.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

LOL it was on your tumblr.

also im frauding out and picking up ics for falco for tournaments. still need more practice with that stupid ****ing bird.

Eikelmann is slipping

 

[Superspright]

You have really high standards dude. I'm beginning to wonder if you've actually been to tournaments. Because people make these mistakes even at the top of the top all the time. As said before, he beat Vanz so he's clearly doing something right. Jessie also just knows him really well because they play a lot I think so there was a lot of bull****.

I do have high-standards...for my opponents and myself. I was deeply underwhelmed by his performance in that set. Like I said--it could very well have been an off day. He completely and utterly missed his tech chases not only in timing but in spacing as well. It was very bizarre to watch.

Also, for the rest of you: I've had videos up...they've been taken down, or the parts with me in it have been cut out. I'm hardly pompous. I've gone to Zenith and made it out of pools over a year ago. I can't attend many major tournaments because my financial situation is dismal at best--if I explain my situation you'd either make fun of me because you're *****, or sympathize with me so I won't go into it.

I'm not some scrub Ganondorf who just gets wrecked by people. I've played M2K in bracket before--not that I won or anything. But I don't just get four-stocked by anyone.

@ Wanted: The Long Island scene has gotten a lot better recently. If you've seen Animal you'd know. He would make that Fox in that set look like he just picked up melee yesterday. He's leagues better.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

I've gone to Zenith and made it out of pools over a year ago.

What did you enter as? I just checked the results threads for the last 3 Zeniths and didn't see your name anywhere.