Greninja Patch 1.0.4 changes

[SuperSmashKing009]

Fastfall before an Uair? Probably will be easier with a cstick, thanks. Good thing Wii U comes out tomorrow, the hype is real!

Yeah it's a little different then the previous version, I'm right with you on the wii u version wooo!

 

[Talon]

So I went over a friend's house who managed to get his copy early and tested out everything with Greninja. Aside all of his primary tools being nerfed to purgatory, he's overall still a great character. I do miss SS out of aerials and (near lagless movements) but Greninja still has potential. He can't string combos as effectively as he used to,but I found myself having an easier time via Wii U catching the opponent. Uthrow to Uair is still great at low/mid % and SS has honestly impressed me offstage. Reaching the opponent faster offstage for a potential kill with near succession is always great and even if they airdodge, you have HP to cover you. It's still early in the metagame so I can't necessarily say this is Greninja's best we've seen...

 

[Talon]

So I went over a friend's house who managed to get his copy early and tested out everything with Greninja. Aside all of his primary tools being nerfed to purgatory, he's overall still a great character. I do miss SS out of aerials and (near lagless movements) but Greninja still has potential. He can't string combos as effectively as he used to,but I found myself having an easier time via Wii U catching the opponent. Uthrow to Uair is still great at low/mid % and SS has honestly impressed me offstage. Reaching the opponent faster offstage for a potential kill with near succession is always great and even if they airdodge, you have HP to cover you. It's still early in the metagame so I can't necessarily say this is Greninja's best we've seen...

( Sorry. Typing mobile and accidentally sent twice )

 

[Kenjin]

Honestly, I think Greninja has the potential to come back on top tier characters, cause he will be buffed next patch. I just hope the community won't blindly accept the useless nerf that Greninja took in the balls. He now DOES lack of finishers, he needs A LOT more knockback on his Fair, a back-to-3DS hydro pump, a better SS and the ability to fast fall during SS, and he will be a good character again.

Waiting for that, I will be really feeling it.

 

[FullMoon]

Honestly, I think Greninja has the potential to come back on top tier characters, cause he will be buffed next patch. I just hope the community won't blindly accept the useless nerf that Greninja took in the balls. He now DOES lack of finishers, he needs A LOT more knockback on his Fair, a back-to-3DS hydro pump, a better SS and the ability to fast fall during SS, and he will be a good character again.

Waiting for that, I will be really feeling it.

Implying Greninja is a bad character when he's at worst mid-tier.

Yeah no.

 

[Br0kenEng1ish]

Honestly, I think Greninja has the potential to come back on top tier characters, cause he will be buffed next patch. I just hope the community won't blindly accept the useless nerf that Greninja took in the balls. He now DOES lack of finishers, he needs A LOT more knockback on his Fair, a back-to-3DS hydro pump, a better SS and the ability to fast fall during SS, and he will be a good character again.

Waiting for that, I will be really feeling it.

A lot of those while nice aren't necessary for Greninja to shine. FF shadow sneak doesn't hit anyone who knows the match up for example. Honesty he's had more power shifted around than taken away, it's just players are able to respond to some of his stronger tactics now. He's still fairly good, if I had a guess he'd be top of mid tier or bottom of top tier, and he still has the tools needed to have solid match ups across the board.

 

[Lavani]

+ Shadow Sneak`s shadow travels 20% faster. Before it took 1.2 seconds for the shadow to reach max range while now it only takes 1.0 second.

How exactly was this tested? I was about to mention this in the general 1.0.4 patch notes thread, but when I tested 1.0.4 vs 1.0.0 to verify it took 1 second to reach max range in both.

 

[MartinAW4]

How exactly was this tested? I was about to mention this in the general 1.0.4 patch notes thread, but when I tested 1.0.4 vs 1.0.0 to verify it took 1 second to reach max range in both.

I tested it myself with a stopwatch in one hand and my 3DS in the other hand. I don`t know why, but back then I kept getting around 1.20s in 1.0.0 and around 1.00s in 1.0.4. But I retested it just now and you`re right, it takes 1.00s in both versions. I apologize for the confusion, I should have found a more reliable way to test it before posting it. Thanks for verifying this before spreading it further, I`ll remove it from the OP.

 

[warionumbah2]

Being mid tier isn't even bad, the game is overall so balanced that the tier gaps isn't large at all, every character actually has a chance against each other. I dislike how they took out an AT with his shadow sneak due to the fact that it gives us a vision on what Nintendo might do in the future(most likely erasing any kind of exploit).

 

[momochuu]

he is not mid tier.

 

[Hub5]

Mid tier is villager and pikachu. Greninja is next level Even after the nerf his main combo starters in nair, jab, dash, and dtilt haven't been touched. Not to mention his great speed.

 

[miyokei.kun.896]

Whale this explains why Grenji dropped from 4 to 8 in rankings. (Going off eventhubs votes)

 

[Hub5]

Lol, the eventhubs tier list is innacurate. Link sits at 12 for god sake, above fox, shulk, rob and other superior characters. The tier list appears to be based off popularity to a certain degree.

 

[Shack]

Anyone find some good videos yet? I am still waiting to see some next level Greninja play. So far the best videos(IMO) came out on 3DS when people just started discovering the HP gimp, but I have yet to see any high level play from him outside of that. Most Greninja videos I see on this board are nothing but dash attack, shuriken and smash spam.

Whale this explains why Grenji dropped from 4 to 8 in rankings. (Going off eventhubs votes)

Yeah what @ Hub5 said. Eventhubs list is based off random impressions and require people to check off what each matchup is. There's no QCing process, reasonings or requirements to vote. Anyone can make uneducated votes based off their online experience, CPU experience or just make 20 accounts and vote a bunch of times.

 

[Hub5]

So far after the nerf, not a lot of people have been using Greninja. He was a tricky but rewarding character to use before the patch but now, the rewards are lower and he is just as if not more difficult to utilize well. With top tiers such as Yoshi and Rosaluma getting minor nerfs in comparison to Greninja, a bunch of Greninja players have moved to other characters, such as Sheik including Nietono. And with Diddy being just as strong as ever, our favourite ninja will have it rough unfortunately.

 

[MartinAW4]

@ Shack
If you want to see pre patch high level Greninja play, check out Nietono. He was the best Greninja player I`ve seen so far. You can find all of his videos in the Greninja video thread here.

Spoiler: My thoughts on Greninja pre nerf

Before the nerf I felt that Greninja was definitely top tier. Even according to the rankings here, he was the character that won the most tournaments (mostly thanks to Nietono).
- Usmash was just crazy. It was Greninja`s most damaging move, it was a disjointed hitbox with great range, it was almost completely safe on shield unless they perfect shielded and even then SHFF Nair -> Usmash -> Jab was always safe on shield. It even comboed into itself at the right % (could any other smash attack do that?) and you could easily follow it up with an Uair. Not to mention how easily it could frame trap opponents trying to land. It`s sad how a fraction of a second of extra lag can turn arguably the best smash attack in the game into a slightly above average move at best.

- Hydro Pump allowed Greninja to gimp so well and coupled with Bair and Uair spike Greninja was in my opinion the best gimper in the game. This was the move that also had the most potential for improvement. If you hit a player in helpless state with it and your aim was perfect, you could keep them in the air and send them wherever you wanted for the kill. However now it barely pushes the opponent back and is only useful for gimping weak recoveries (Ike, Ness, DDD, maybe Diddy...) so usually I just prefer to use Bair, which is still great by the way.

- Water Shuriken was an awesome projectile with so many uses. You could use it for small pokes, for outspamming other projectile spammers because of the higher attack rate, as a kill move and even for setting up combos or grabs. It was by far the most used move of top Greninja players. Now it combos only at around sub 20% and its attack rate is lower because of the end lag, making it more punishable.

- Uair was a great kill move and its spike could reliably kill opponents off stage. Now the spike is much weaker and the opponent can easily recover from it. It is also harder to land the last hit and even if it does land, its knockback got reduced. And you cannot combo into it from an Usmash anymore either. At least it is easier to combo two of them after an Uthrow at mid % because of the reduced knockback.

These were the 4 best moves Greninja had that made it so unique and gave it something over other top tiers that allowed it to compete with them. However all of these moves got heavily nerfed (in addition to Fair and the only moves that got buffed were the never used Dsmash and the situational Shadow Sneak) while the other top tiers either didn`t get any nerfs at all (Diddy, Sonic) or their nerfs were much less severe (Rosalina, Sheik). So while Greninja still isn`t a bad character and he is still my main, I don`t think he is top tier anymore and if you want a fast rush down character with many combos, a great projectile and one of the best gimping games, I cannot find a good enough reason not to reccomend Sheik over Greninja (assuming you want to maximize your chances of winning).

The main reason why I`m staying with Greninja is not only because I love its playstyle, but also because I expect further nerfs to the current top tiers (mainly Diddy, Rosalina, Sheik, maybe Sonic and Yoshi as well) in the next patch, while Greninja might actually receive some buffs now that almost noone uses it in tournaments anymore. And I don`t want to invest a lot of time into learning a new character, only for it to get Greninja-level nerfs while Greninja becomes top tier again thanks to the nerfed opposition.

I actually wish Nintendo didn`t do balance patches for this game. Because of the patches you have to think ahead and predict which characters will likely get nerfed, which ones buffed and which ones will become the new top tiers. Picking a competitive main is almost like investing in the stock market now. I think the only thing Nintendo should patch are game breaking glitches. If Sakurai continues to take away options that make good characters interesting and fun to use in order to reach his idea of "balance", I could really see tournaments using the unpatched version which I honestly think was more balanced and definitely more fun than the current one. Does anyone know if it is still possible to download patch 1.0.3 and whether the WiiU version 1.0.0 was the same as 1.0.3 on 3DS?

 

[Marilink]

I highly doubt that it's possible to revert to a previous patch.

 

[Lavani]

Does anyone know if it is still possible to download patch 1.0.3

I'm nearly positive this isn't an option, but 1.0.0 - 1.0.3 lacked balance changes, so you can simply remove the patch files from your SD card temporarily to play on 1.0.0. Though unfortunately it starts up without save data (you'll still have your old data after repatching).

 

[MartinAW4]

I'm nearly positive this isn't an option, but 1.0.0 - 1.0.3 lacked balance changes, so you can simply remove the patch files from your SD card temporarily to play on 1.0.0. Though unfortunately it starts up without save data (you'll still have your old data after repatching).

Yeah, I knew you could play on 1.0.0 when you removed patch 1.0.4. But I was hoping there was a way to download patch 1.0.3 so that I could access my save data. I would have v 1.0.4 on my main 3DS XL and v 1.0.3 on my old 3DS for local matches with friends when we want to use characters at their full potential.
Let`s just hope that in the next patch Sakurai prioritizes buffing bad characters over nerfing the good ones, however unlikely that is.

 

[Kikaioh]

@ MartinAW4 : Thank you, you basically took all the words right out of my mouth. Before the patch I was really getting the sense that Greninja was a top-tier character, but he's been hit hard by the nerfs and is a lot clunkier and KO-unfriendly to use now. He's not terrible, but a lot of the fun and smoothness in his playstyle has been patched out, and I can completely understand why people with a competitive mindset would consider switching. I'm sticking with him for now, but I'm also starting to explore other characters, because I'm just not feeling Greninja's groove like I was before (and not for a lack of trying, that's after almost 500 battles with post-patch Greninja, trying to figure out ways to adjust and compensate for the nerfs).

 

[Shack]

@ Shack
If you want to see pre patch high level Greninja play, check out Nietono. He was the best Greninja player I`ve seen so far. You can find all of his videos in the Greninja video thread here.

Spoiler: My thoughts on Greninja pre nerf

Before the nerf I felt that Greninja was definitely top tier. Even according to the rankings here, he was the character that won the most tournaments (mostly thanks to Nietono).
- Usmash was just crazy. It was Greninja`s most damaging move, it was a disjointed hitbox with great range, it was almost completely safe on shield unless they perfect shielded and even then SHFF Nair -> Usmash -> Jab was always safe on shield. It even comboed into itself at the right % (could any other smash attack do that?) and you could easily follow it up with an Uair. Not to mention how easily it could frame trap opponents trying to land. It`s sad how a fraction of a second of extra lag can turn arguably the best smash attack in the game into a slightly above average move at best.

- Hydro Pump allowed Greninja to gimp so well and coupled with Bair and Uair spike Greninja was in my opinion the best gimper in the game. This was the move that also had the most potential for improvement. If you hit a player in helpless state with it and your aim was perfect, you could keep them in the air and send them wherever you wanted for the kill. However now it barely pushes the opponent back and is only useful for gimping weak recoveries (Ike, Ness, DDD, maybe Diddy...) so usually I just prefer to use Bair, which is still great by the way.

- Water Shuriken was an awesome projectile with so many uses. You could use it for small pokes, for outspamming other projectile spammers because of the higher attack rate, as a kill move and even for setting up combos or grabs. It was by far the most used move of top Greninja players. Now it combos only at around sub 20% and its attack rate is lower because of the end lag, making it more punishable.

- Uair was a great kill move and its spike could reliably kill opponents off stage. Now the spike is much weaker and the opponent can easily recover from it. It is also harder to land the last hit and even if it does land, its knockback got reduced. And you cannot combo into it from an Usmash anymore either. At least it is easier to combo two of them after an Uthrow at mid % because of the reduced knockback.

These were the 4 best moves Greninja had that made it so unique and gave it something over other top tiers that allowed it to compete with them. However all of these moves got heavily nerfed (in addition to Fair and the only moves that got buffed were the never used Dsmash and the situational Shadow Sneak) while the other top tiers either didn`t get any nerfs at all (Diddy, Sonic) or their nerfs were much less severe (Rosalina, Sheik). So while Greninja still isn`t a bad character and he is still my main, I don`t think he is top tier anymore and if you want a fast rush down character with many combos, a great projectile and one of the best gimping games, I cannot find a good enough reason not to reccomend Sheik over Greninja (assuming you want to maximize your chances of winning).

The main reason why I`m staying with Greninja is not only because I love its playstyle, but also because I expect further nerfs to the current top tiers (mainly Diddy, Rosalina, Sheik, maybe Sonic and Yoshi as well) in the next patch, while Greninja might actually receive some buffs now that almost noone uses it in tournaments anymore. And I don`t want to invest a lot of time into learning a new character, only for it to get Greninja-level nerfs while Greninja becomes top tier again thanks to the nerfed opposition.

I actually wish Nintendo didn`t do balance patches for this game. Because of the patches you have to think ahead and predict which characters will likely get nerfed, which ones buffed and which ones will become the new top tiers. Picking a competitive main is almost like investing in the stock market now. I think the only thing Nintendo should patch are game breaking glitches. If Sakurai continues to take away options that make good characters interesting and fun to use in order to reach his idea of "balance", I could really see tournaments using the unpatched version which I honestly think was more balanced and definitely more fun than the current one. Does anyone know if it is still possible to download patch 1.0.3 and whether the WiiU version 1.0.0 was the same as 1.0.3 on 3DS?

Yeah that is the doubled edge sword of patches. SC2 and League of Legends goes through this too. Patches do help balance things, but sometimes the nerf bat hits too hard while allowing truly broken techniques to stay in play.

My main issue with Greninja has been that Sheik did everything Greninja did better (SHFF, aerials, combos, off stage gimps/KOs) minus the Hydro Pump gimp and USmash range. Actually Shurikens are pretty good being that they can net a KO at decent percents. Greninja is still fun and really cool, but from a competitive standpoint seems to be lacking at least reliable KO set ups post 100%.

 

[MartinAW4]

My main issue with Greninja has been that Sheik did everything Greninja did better (SHFF, aerials, combos, off stage gimps/KOs) minus the Hydro Pump gimp and USmash range. Actually Shurikens are pretty good being that they can net a KO at decent percents. Greninja is still fun and really cool, but from a competitive standpoint seems to be lacking at least reliable KO set ups post 100%.

Do you mean pre patch or post patch? Post patch I agree, Sheik outclasses Greninja in almost every aspect now. But before, it was a lot more even and I`d even say that Greninja was slightly better. Before I picked my main, the 2 characters I couldn`t decide between were Greninja and Sheik, so I made a comparison of all of their moves which I still have here:

Greninja vs Sheik (v 1.0.3)
Attack name...................Damage dealt............Damage needed to kill
Jab....................................10% vs 12%......................217% vs 185%
FTilt....................................6% vs 4%........................191% vs 214%
UTilt....................................4% vs 11%......................247% vs 219%
DTilt....................................7% vs 7%........................520% vs 275%
FSmash........................14-19% vs 13-18%...............93-60% vs 98-66%
USmash (sweet spot).....19-26% vs 15-21%...............94-59% vs 100-65%
USmash........................13-18% vs 11-15%.............104-69% vs 127-88%
DSmash (sweet spot)......11-15% vs 9-12%..............117-80% vs 123-91%
DSmash..........................9-12% vs 9-12%.............142-101% vs 123-91%
NAir...................................11% vs 8%........................173% vs 176%
FAir...................................14% vs 6.5%......................108% vs 148%
BAir.....................................9% vs 11%.......................165% vs 120%
UAir.....................................9% vs 8%.........................132% vs 136%
DAir.....................................8% vs 10%.......................223% vs 198%
B fully charged....................12% vs 7-11%....................105% vs 341%
B uncharged.........................3% vs 1%.........................520% vs 352%
Side B ..........................10-12% vs 12%...................109-90% vs 132%
Up B ...................................4% vs 12%.......................130% vs 109%
Down B .............................11% vs 12%........................88% vs 109%
FThrow.................................5% vs 7%........................514% vs 580%
BThrow.................................8% vs 7%........................214% vs 716%
UThrow.................................5% vs 5%........................175% vs 553%
DThrow.................................6% vs 6%........................461% vs 377%
Pummel................................2% vs 3%

So overall Greninja had much better smashes, especially Usmash, a better Jab that went through other jabs, a slightly better Uair, a much better Up B a better Side B and overall I`d say a better projectile as well.
While Sheik had much better Tilts (especially Ftilt), better aerials (especially Fair), a much better Down B and a much better grab game.

Regarding combos, Sheik could start them up more easily and they were harder to escape, but Greninja could deal more damage in fewer hits and had more damaging and more diverse combos. A single Greninja Usmash dealt as much damage as 5 Sheik Ftilts or 3 Fairs. So when Greninja did Utilt -> Usmash -> Usmash -> Uair at the start, it dealt as much damage as Sheik with her Fair -> 4 × Ftilt -> Grab -> Pummel -> Fthrow -> 3 × Fair combo.

And in off stage gimps these two were probably the best characters in the game. But I think that Greninja was better because its Bair gimped just as well as Sheik`s Bair and had more vertical range since it hit 3 times (upwards, in the middle and downwards). But Greninja also had the crazy Hydro Pump gimps which Sheik couldn`t match with Bouncing Fish or any other move. Even the Uair spike was easier to perform with Greninja because it had one more hit on its Uair which gave it more time to fast fall out of it. And thanks to its better recovery, Greninja could go deeper for the kill than Sheik.

That`s why I chose Greninja back then, but now might be a good time to get some practice in with my secondary Sheik as well.

 

[FullMoon]

I the main difference between Greninja and Sheik is that the former can kill faster than the latter. I've gone against Sheiks who really struggled to get a kill on me and got me over 200% due to that, while I killed them much earlier. However Sheik is a bit harder to deal with what with the really fast moves and all.

I still main Greninja mostly because of my attachment to the ninja than any sort of competitive value. I mean, the game's roster is largely balance so that they all have at least a chance of winning against the top tier characters. So if you're saying that Sheik outclasses Greninja you might as well say that Sheik outclasses 90% of the cast and everybody should move to Rosaluma/Diddy/Sheik/Yoshi/ZSS if they want to win.

Sheik might be better than Greninja but that hardly makes him unviable in competitive play, just not as easy to win with. I think people just play with characters that they like the most or just fit their playstyle better, instead of just going for who's better.

 

[Shack]

Do you mean pre patch or post patch? Post patch I agree, Sheik outclasses Greninja in almost every aspect now. But before, it was a lot more even and I`d even say that Greninja was slightly better. Before I picked my main, the 2 characters I couldn`t decide between were Greninja and Sheik, so I made a comparison of all of their moves which I still have here:

Greninja vs Sheik (v 1.0.3)
Attack name...................Damage dealt............Damage needed to kill
Jab....................................10% vs 12%......................217% vs 185%
FTilt....................................6% vs 4%........................191% vs 214%
UTilt....................................4% vs 11%......................247% vs 219%
DTilt....................................7% vs 7%........................520% vs 275%
FSmash........................14-19% vs 13-18%...............93-60% vs 98-66%
USmash (sweet spot).....19-26% vs 15-21%...............94-59% vs 100-65%
USmash........................13-18% vs 11-15%.............104-69% vs 127-88%
DSmash (sweet spot)......11-15% vs 9-12%..............117-80% vs 123-91%
DSmash..........................9-12% vs 9-12%.............142-101% vs 123-91%
NAir...................................11% vs 8%........................173% vs 176%
FAir...................................14% vs 6.5%......................108% vs 148%
BAir.....................................9% vs 11%.......................165% vs 120%
UAir.....................................9% vs 8%.........................132% vs 136%
DAir.....................................8% vs 10%.......................223% vs 198%
B fully charged....................12% vs 7-11%....................105% vs 341%
B uncharged.........................3% vs 1%.........................520% vs 352%
Side B ..........................10-12% vs 12%...................109-90% vs 132%
Up B ...................................4% vs 12%.......................130% vs 109%
Down B .............................11% vs 12%........................88% vs 109%
FThrow.................................5% vs 7%........................514% vs 580%
BThrow.................................8% vs 7%........................214% vs 716%
UThrow.................................5% vs 5%........................175% vs 553%
DThrow.................................6% vs 6%........................461% vs 377%
Pummel................................2% vs 3%

In both versions. Greninja might look better on paper, but you have to consider the flow of Smash, it's not just about stats. All a good Sheik needs is to hit you with one FTilt and you're pretty much dead (or about to be because you are off the stage). You will be carried across the screen between FTilts, FAirs, NAirs, grabs and Bouncing Fishes until your dead or at least off the stage. Greninja could not and still cannot do that. He couldn't straight up dominate you at almost any percent to get you off the stage.

 

[MartinAW4]

In both versions. Greninja might look better on paper, but you have to consider the flow of Smash, it's not just about stats. All a good Sheik needs is to hit you with one FTilt and you're pretty much dead (or about to be because you are off the stage). You will be carried across the screen between FTilts, FAirs, NAirs, grabs and Bouncing Fishes until your dead or at least off the stage. Greninja could not and still cannot do that. He couldn't straight up dominate you at almost any percent to get you off the stage.

Now you`re exaggerating a bit don`t you think? Ftilt doesn`t even truly combo until around 20% and at 50% it already sends the opponent too high for it to combo into itself. At 60% even her Fairs start sending the opponent too far for her to combo more than two of them. And all of this is without taking DI and rage into account which make those combos stop working even sooner.
She can carry the opponent around the stage much better than Greninja, but you`re far from dead after getting hit with one Ftilt (or even 10 for that matter). And because of the low damage of Ftilt, you`re basically expected to land at least 2-3 each time just to match the damage of other characters` Ftilts.

It`s true that she can build up the first 50% very quickly but from there the best she can do is throw -> aerial for 12-15 damage each time she lands a grab which Greninja can match even now with Uthrow -> Uair or Bair. Her main weakness just like Greninja`s is getting the kill at 100+% when most of her combos don`t work anymore. And in both cases this problem got even worse with the nerfs to Bouncing Fish and Uair knockback for Sheik and Usmash, Fair, Uair, Water Shuriken and Hydro Pump nerfs for Greninja.

 

[Hub5]

Does anybody else notice that dtilt no longer true combos into hyphen usmash at 100-ish? It seems that opponents are able to spotdodge or jump out of it now, in contrast to 1.03.

 

[MartinAW4]

Does anybody else notice that dtilt no longer true combos into hyphen usmash at 100-ish? It seems that opponents are able to spotdodge or jump out of it now, in contrast to 1.03.

It still combos at 60-120% just like before. I tested it at 60%, 100% and 120% and all of them worked. You just have to be extremely fast and you have to perform the Dtilt while standing in the middle of the opponent. You can do this by walking into your opponent and quickly performing a Dtilt.

 

[Hub5]

What I meant to say was that its not a true 3 hit combo in training. However it might as well be because, it looks like lv.9 CPUs cannot escape it as long as you hit the dtilt with really close to greninja's body to pop them as close to you as possible. The range for dtilt to actually combo is quite small though and is roughly from the top of Greninja's leg to his kneecap but definitely a great option for killing still.

 

[MartinAW4]

What I meant to say was that its not a true 3 hit combo in training. However it might as well be because, it looks like lv.9 CPUs cannot escape it as long as you hit the dtilt with really close to greninja's body to pop them as close to you as possible. The range for dtilt to actually combo is quite small though and is roughly from the top of Greninja's leg to his kneecap but definitely a great option for killing still.

But it is a true 3-hit combo in training mode that shows 26 damage dealt if you`re fast enough. Of course in practice you`re not going to true combo anyone with it, but like you said, the opening to escape it is so small, that most people probably won`t react in time to avoid it.

 

[Shack]

Now you`re exaggerating a bit don`t you think? Ftilt doesn`t even truly combo until around 20% and at 50% it already sends the opponent too high for it to combo into itself. At 60% even her Fairs start sending the opponent too far for her to combo more than two of them. And all of this is without taking DI and rage into account which make those combos stop working even sooner.
She can carry the opponent around the stage much better than Greninja, but you`re far from dead after getting hit with one Ftilt (or even 10 for that matter). And because of the low damage of Ftilt, you`re basically expected to land at least 2-3 each time just to match the damage of other characters` Ftilts.

It`s true that she can build up the first 50% very quickly but from there the best she can do is throw -> aerial for 12-15 damage each time she lands a grab which Greninja can match even now with Uthrow -> Uair or Bair. Her main weakness just like Greninja`s is getting the kill at 100+% when most of her combos don`t work anymore. And in both cases this problem got even worse with the nerfs to Bouncing Fish and Uair knockback for Sheik and Usmash, Fair, Uair, Water Shuriken and Hydro Pump nerfs for Greninja.

1. Bouncing Fish still kills pretty decently especially if you use it off the edge. even with DI, one combo form mid screen can take you off the stage and in range to be gimped.
2. Greninja's grab has start up lag making it pretty easy to react to. I know I have been grabbed and hit out of my grab because the animation does sync up with the actual active frames.
3. Greninja cannot follow up to an edge guard the same as her because his FAir and NAir have start up lag while Sheik has multiple aerials that are near instant and threaten to gimp or KO. Greninja has to anticipate while Sheik has the option to anticipate or just react to her opponents movements.
4. Greninja has trouble getting back onto the edge when grabbing. Where other characters can edge drop and use an aerial to get back up, his aerials all have slight lag that will most likely get you FSmashed back off (unless there is some way to reverse hop back on so you can go for a BAir).

I don't know about you, but from my experience since Melee, these are all very important things in making a strong character. Mind you, I am not saying Greninja is useless, I am just saying right now he seems outclassed by Sheik. Unless someone brings some new tech, I don't see him getting too far outside of just playing that much better than your opponent.

 

[MartinAW4]

1. Bouncing Fish still kills pretty decently especially if you use it off the edge. even with DI, one combo form mid screen can take you off the stage and in range to be gimped.
2. Greninja's grab has start up lag making it pretty easy to react to. I know I have been grabbed and hit out of my grab because the animation does sync up with the actual active frames.
3. Greninja cannot follow up to an edge guard the same as her because his FAir and NAir have start up lag while Sheik has multiple aerials that are near instant and threaten to gimp or KO. Greninja has to anticipate while Sheik has the option to anticipate or just react to her opponents movements.
4. Greninja has trouble getting back onto the edge when grabbing. Where other characters can edge drop and use an aerial to get back up, his aerials all have slight lag that will most likely get you FSmashed back off (unless there is some way to reverse hop back on so you can go for a BAir).

I don't know about you, but from my experience since Melee, these are all very important things in making a strong character. Mind you, I am not saying Greninja is useless, I am just saying right now he seems outclassed by Sheik. Unless someone brings some new tech, I don't see him getting too far outside of just playing that much better than your opponent.

1. Yes, but only at 20-50%. And at that point you won`t be gimping anyone other than maybe Little Mac, Ganondorf or Dr. Mario. Also the ability to carry the opponent across the stage is not exclusive to Sheik. Greninja can also do it with Nair -> Dtilt -> Dash Attack -> Fair which works even at 0% and if performed from the middle of FD, it leaves your opponent off stage in perfect position for a Hydro Pump hit or Uair spike, which unlike Sheik, can kill even opponents with decent recoveries.

2. The standing grab does have pretty bad start up lag but the dash grab is almost lag less and has better range than Sheik`s. That is probably the only thing Greninja`s grab game is better at than Sheik`s. Well actually Greninja`s Uthrow is better too since it becomes a kill throw at high % (around 170% without rage) while the earliest Sheik can kill with a throw is at 377% with Dthrow.

3. It`s not about quantity but about quality of the aerials you have. Sheik has to choose between Fair + Nair or Bair and most of the time it`s going to be Bair since it has the best knockback and very low end lag. Same goes for Greninja who 95% of the time will only ever need Bair and for gimping in my experience it`s better than any aerial Sheik has to offer. It has only slightly more end lag than Sheik`s Bair and lower knockback than the sweetspot hit but its start up is just as fast, it has better range (hitting up, straight and down), its hitboxes remain active longer and it has no sourspot. But most importantly the launching angle is much better and the hitstun seems to be longer as well. I managed to gimp an opposing Sheik with it from 0% by chaining two of them off stage while with Sheik`s Bair, I rarely get a gimp at below 90%.
Also unlike Sheik, Geninja can use its Dair off stage to gimp vertical recoveries without SDing.
Then there`s the specials and Hydro Pump + Shadow Sneak are overall better for gimping than Vanish + Bouncing Fish. Hydro Pump single-handedly turns some matchups in Greninja`s favor because it completely destroys their recoveries and the extra range compared to Vanish allows Greninja to go deeper for the gimp and still make it back. Between SS and BF, I`d say BF is the better move for gimping since it is easier to land, but SS kills much sooner so the difference isn`t as big as between Vanish and Hydro Pump.
That`s why overall, gimping is one of the few things Greninja still does better than Sheik even after the nerf.

4. For getting back on stage from the ledge Greninja might not have the best options, but they really aren`t that bad either. You can jump off and Shadow Sneak to hit them if they are too close. Or you could use SS to turn around and approach with Bair. And you can often even Hydro Pump right through them, getting back on stage and pushing them off stage in the process, turning the situation completely around. Now you`re the one who can go for an edgeguard.

So overall I agree that Sheik is currently the better character mainly thanks to her faster and safer tilts and much better grab game. But before the patch I think Greninja was the better character overall. Even though the difference was much smaller and both characters had something over the other to make them both very viable depending on the matchup. If you needed stronger smashes, a better gimping game and a deadly projectile, you`d go Greninja and if you needed fast, safe Tilts + Fair, a better grab game and a better poking projectile, Sheik was the better choice.

 

[Shack]

1. Yes, but only at 20-50%. And at that point you won`t be gimping anyone other than maybe Little Mac, Ganondorf or Dr. Mario. Also the ability to carry the opponent across the stage is not exclusive to Sheik. Greninja can also do it with Nair -> Dtilt -> Dash Attack -> Fair which works even at 0% and if performed from the middle of FD, it leaves your opponent off stage in perfect position for a Hydro Pump hit or Uair spike, which unlike Sheik, can kill even opponents with decent recoveries.

2. The standing grab does have pretty bad start up lag but the dash grab is almost lag less and has better range than Sheik`s. That is probably the only thing Greninja`s grab game is better at than Sheik`s. Well actually Greninja`s Uthrow is better too since it becomes a kill throw at high % (around 170% without rage) while the earliest Sheik can kill with a throw is at 377% with Dthrow.

3. It`s not about quantity but about quality of the aerials you have. Sheik has to choose between Fair + Nair or Bair and most of the time it`s going to be Bair since it has the best knockback and very low end lag. Same goes for Greninja who 95% of the time will only ever need Bair and for gimping in my experience it`s better than any aerial Sheik has to offer. It has only slightly more end lag than Sheik`s Bair and lower knockback than the sweetspot hit but its start up is just as fast, it has better range (hitting up, straight and down), its hitboxes remain active longer and it has no sourspot. But most importantly the launching angle is much better and the hitstun seems to be longer as well. I managed to gimp an opposing Sheik with it from 0% by chaining two of them off stage while with Sheik`s Bair, I rarely get a gimp at below 90%.
Also unlike Sheik, Geninja can use its Dair off stage to gimp vertical recoveries without SDing.
Then there`s the specials and Hydro Pump + Shadow Sneak are overall better for gimping than Vanish + Bouncing Fish. Hydro Pump single-handedly turns some matchups in Greninja`s favor because it completely destroys their recoveries and the extra range compared to Vanish allows Greninja to go deeper for the gimp and still make it back. Between SS and BF, I`d say BF is the better move for gimping since it is easier to land, but SS kills much sooner so the difference isn`t as big as between Vanish and Hydro Pump.
That`s why overall, gimping is one of the few things Greninja still does better than Sheik even after the nerf.

4. For getting back on stage from the ledge Greninja might not have the best options, but they really aren`t that bad either. You can jump off and Shadow Sneak to hit them if they are too close. Or you could use SS to turn around and approach with Bair. And you can often even Hydro Pump right through them, getting back on stage and pushing them off stage in the process, turning the situation completely around. Now you`re the one who can go for an edgeguard.

So overall I agree that Sheik is currently the better character mainly thanks to her faster and safer tilts and much better grab game. But before the patch I think Greninja was the better character overall. Even though the difference was much smaller and both characters had something over the other to make them both very viable depending on the matchup. If you needed stronger smashes, a better gimping game and a deadly projectile, you`d go Greninja and if you needed fast, safe Tilts + Fair, a better grab game and a better poking projectile, Sheik was the better choice.

1. Except Sheik can begin that string from confirming any of her tilts, grabs, jabs, aerials, while Greninja really needs to begin with NAir or DTilt.
2. I didn't realize it had more range, I will play with this more and pivot boosted grabs, thanks!
3. Sheik's multiple options are for different occasions, BAir is for spacing and edge guards, FAir is for combos and quick fall off the stage edge guards which pretty much guarantee a gimp if they try to recover low. I believe Greninja has to wait for them to grab the edge in order for him to go for a stage spike BAir. her NAir is to land behind people's shields and cover anyone trying to DI or air dodge in funky ways when recovering. Hydro Pump was definitely amazing and what made him feel different and potentially better than Sheik.
4. What do you mean? If you attempt to HP to the stage you are vulnerable and it has start up lag. you risk getting smashed if you do not ledge hop with an active hitbox ready to stuff an attack. The same goes for Shadow Sneak. If they block it, you will fall with no invincibility frames and they can easily BAir or DSmash you.

EDIT: What do you use as a get off me move? The more I play the more I realize that I become helpless if someone puts on too much pressure since outside of jabs, I don't think anything starts up quick enough.

 

[MartinAW4]

1. Except Sheik can begin that string from confirming any of her tilts, grabs, jabs, aerials, while Greninja really needs to begin with NAir or DTilt.
2. I didn't realize it had more range, I will play with this more and pivot boosted grabs, thanks!
3. Sheik's multiple options are for different occasions, BAir is for spacing and edge guards, FAir is for combos and quick fall off the stage edge guards which pretty much guarantee a gimp if they try to recover low. I believe Greninja has to wait for them to grab the edge in order for him to go for a stage spike BAir. her NAir is to land behind people's shields and cover anyone trying to DI or air dodge in funky ways when recovering. Hydro Pump was definitely amazing and what made him feel different and potentially better than Sheik.
4. What do you mean? If you attempt to HP to the stage you are vulnerable and it has start up lag. you risk getting smashed if you do not ledge hop with an active hitbox ready to stuff an attack. The same goes for Shadow Sneak. If they block it, you will fall with no invincibility frames and they can easily BAir or DSmash you.

EDIT: What do you use as a get off me move? The more I play the more I realize that I become helpless if someone puts on too much pressure since outside of jabs, I don't think anything starts up quick enough.

1. That`s true, Greninja`s approach options are limited compared to Sheik`s, but at least it can use its best one, Nair, for starting most of its combos.
3. Stage spiking with Bair is useful for hitting opponents that try to recover from below the stage. You don`t have to wait for them to grab the ledge, you just run off the stage and immediately Bair as you can see at the start of this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nDiNnX3sMQ
But I wasn`t talking about stage spiking. You can also RAR Bair to edgeguard opponents away from the stage. It launches opponents away and slightly downwards and seems to have so much hitstun that if you land 2 of them off stage, unless it`s Villager or high aura Lucario, they`re not coming back even at low %. And landing 2 is not that hard because especially at low %, they string into each other. You can try it by doing Uthrow at 0%. If they DI backwards to avoid Uair (the CPU does this often as well), you can string Bair -> Bair and possibly follow up with a Fair after landing.
4. Yes, if you try to HP through them they can hit you but they have to react quickly. I wouldn`t use it every time but it can surprise your opponent if used once or twice. But Shadow Sneak is safe when used from off stage even if they shield because it causes enough shield stun that by the time they can act, you`re far enough below the stage to avoid any punish. And if they start charging a Smash attack near the ledge, you can use the get-up attack to punish them.

Dtilt works great as a get off me move as well. At low % you can do Dtilt -> Jab or Dtilt -> Ftilt if you need more space. Dtilt -> Dash Attack -> Fair also works if you connect the Dash Attack after Dtilt since it is not a true combo. Above 40% you can do Dtilt -> hyphen Usmash and possibly Uair. And above 120%, Dtilt -> Fair becomes a true combo and kills.

 

[Shack]

1. That`s true, Greninja`s approach options are limited compared to Sheik`s, but at least it can use its best one, Nair, for starting most of its combos.
3. Stage spiking with Bair is useful for hitting opponents that try to recover from below the stage. You don`t have to wait for them to grab the ledge, you just run off the stage and immediately Bair as you can see at the start of this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nDiNnX3sMQ
But I wasn`t talking about stage spiking. You can also RAR Bair to edgeguard opponents away from the stage. It launches opponents away and slightly downwards and seems to have so much hitstun that if you land 2 of them off stage, unless it`s Villager or high aura Lucario, they`re not coming back even at low %. And landing 2 is not that hard because especially at low %, they string into each other. You can try it by doing Uthrow at 0%. If they DI backwards to avoid Uair (the CPU does this often as well), you can string Bair -> Bair and possibly follow up with a Fair after landing.
4. Yes, if you try to HP through them they can hit you but they have to react quickly. I wouldn`t use it every time but it can surprise your opponent if used once or twice. But Shadow Sneak is safe when used from off stage even if they shield because it causes enough shield stun that by the time they can act, you`re far enough below the stage to avoid any punish. And if they start charging a Smash attack near the ledge, you can use the get-up attack to punish them.

Dtilt works great as a get off me move as well. At low % you can do Dtilt -> Jab or Dtilt -> Ftilt if you need more space. Dtilt -> Dash Attack -> Fair also works if you connect the Dash Attack after Dtilt since it is not a true combo. Above 40% you can do Dtilt -> hyphen Usmash and possibly Uair. And above 120%, Dtilt -> Fair becomes a true combo and kills.

Thanks for the info, I will have to play around more with DTilts then.

In regards to the BAir, I already do both of those, what I meant was how Sheik and others can knock you off the stage and immediately follow up by running off and hitting you with a low FAir/NAir. There is no time to RAR in those situations and if you do, you have to jump which only covered high recoveries, not the low ones that are still far from the stage. It just feels like missed opportunists to apply pressure and maintain momentum.

About SS, I think it is match up dependent because the second hit on Pit's FSmash has a lot of range.

 

[MartinAW4]

Thanks for the info, I will have to play around more with DTilts then.

In regards to the BAir, I already do both of those, what I meant was how Sheik and others can knock you off the stage and immediately follow up by running off and hitting you with a low FAir/NAir. There is no time to RAR in those situations and if you do, you have to jump which only covered high recoveries, not the low ones that are still far from the stage. It just feels like missed opportunists to apply pressure and maintain momentum.

About SS, I think it is match up dependent because the second hit on Pit's FSmash has a lot of range.

You mean something like at 2:45 in this video?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suLObPPSSAk&index=68&list=UUj1J3QuIftjOq9iv_rr7Egw
Yeah, Greninja doesn`t have any aerial which could do that so fast, but situations when I`d want to run off and aerial immediately are very rare, so it`s not a huge problem.

And what do you mean by SS being match up dependent?

 

[DeadlyShoc]

Am I the only one who feels like Greninja's grab is retardedly slow?

 

[Lavani]

You definitely aren't. 14f is disgustingly slow for a grab.

 

[MartinAW4]

You definitely aren't. 14f is disgustingly slow for a grab.

Is there a list with grab frame data for all characters? And does it also measure dash grabs? Greninja`s standing grab is really slow, but the dash grab seems fine.

 

[Lavani]

Is there a list with grab frame data for all characters? And does it also measure dash grabs? Greninja`s standing grab is really slow, but the dash grab seems fine.

No list, but grabs, dash grabs, and pivot grabs are neatly labeled in Dantarion's data dump.

Greninja's dash grab is 9f and pivot grab is 15f, for what it's worth.

 

[Shack]

You mean something like at 2:45 in this video?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suLObPPSSAk&index=68&list=UUj1J3QuIftjOq9iv_rr7Egw
Yeah, Greninja doesn`t have any aerial which could do that so fast, but situations when I`d want to run off and aerial immediately are very rare, so it`s not a huge problem.

And what do you mean by SS being match up dependent?

Yes that is what I mean.

Really? I feel like I am always wishing I could do that with Geninja. A majority of the time I knock them off and want to finish them, but have to sit there and wait since none of his moves can cover that lower portion of the screen. There are so many missed KOs and pressure opportunities. Not being able to threaten them there gives them too much time to think about what to do next. It feels like it kills the flow and gives them a chance for a comeback.

SS depending on how far the character's FSmash is.