Greninja Patch 1.0.4 changes

[MartinAW4]

I decided to make a separate thread for all Greninja`s changes after the new patch we`ve found so far to have them all in one place. I tested every single Greninja`s move before and after the patch against Mario on the edge of FD and here are all the changes I can confirm:

NERFS:
- Usmash has more end lag (nothing seems to combo out of it anymore, not even Uair)
- Shadow Sneak cannot cancel landing lag from aerials anymore
- Fast fall Shadow Sneak is gone
- sourspot Usmash received a damage nerf to 11% uncharged and 15% fully charged (from 13-18%) and kills at 124% uncharged (instead of 104%) and at 86% fully charged (instead of 69%)
- Water Shuriken (charged, uncharged and other custom Shurikens as well) has more ending and landing lag. This makes it very hard but still possible to combo Usmash or Grab into fully charged WS by chasing after it. However medium charged WS -> Jab does not combo anymore.
- Hydro Pump pushback got reduced and damage remained the same
- Uair knockback got reduced. It kills now at 148% instead of 132%. However damage is the same.
- 5. hit of Uair lost its spike properties and the spike caused by the first 4 hits is much weaker.
- Uair spike does not cause ground bounce anymore which means Greninja lost its infinite ground bounce combo.
- Fair knockback got reduced. It kills now at 121% instead of 108%.
- Hyphen Usmash is harder to perform (this applies to all other characters as well)
- DACUS is gone (so far this seems to be the case for all characters)

BUFFS:
+ Dsmash received a damage buff. Sweetspot Dsmash deals 13-18 damage (up from 11-15) and kills at 101%-67% (instead of 125%-92%) while sourspot Dsmash deals 11-15 damage (up from 9-12) and kills at 119%-84% (instead of 142%-101%)
+ Shadow Sneak has less ending lag in the air and on the ground. Before, you could barely make it back to the stage if you used SS twice off stage from a full jump and now you can almost make it back after using SS three times.
+ Uair spike is easier to perform because it is easier to fast fall out of Uair in time.
+ Uair spike now truly combos into almost everything including Jab, Dtilt, Utilt and even Usmash. So far I even managed to do Uair spike -> Utilt -> Usmash.

ADVANCED TECHNIQUES CONFIRMED TO BE STILL IN:
- Running Shadow Sneak
- Platform Shadow Sneak
- Shadow Sneak hitstun cancelling
- Uair spike

TO BE CONFIRMED:
+ Fair and Nair seem to have lower start-up lag -> Deconfirmed by bajisci, their speed is identical
+ 5. hit of Uair might infinite combo into itself
+ Pummel speed seems to be faster -> Deconfirmed, it is identical

 

[KERO]

So something I was just messing around with is that we may be able to chain Uthrow to Uair to Utilt to Uair to Utilt to Uair etc., from around 10ish to about 80ish. Don't think we'll be able to get a combo into a KO from it, though.

 

[FullMoon]

What's a Hyphen Up-Smash?

 

[KERO]

What's a Hyphen Up-Smash?

It's the name for a running Usmash. Also, should be noted that Hyphen Usmash is harder for every character to perform now. The ideal way on the 3DS is to do a jump canceled Usmash while running. No idea if we can just simply flick the Cstick up like in Brawl in the Wii U version, though.

 

[Spirst]

I'm quite curious as to how this will play out. I recall Diddy being one of our harder matchups and with these nerfs, it could very well be in his favor now.

Uair spiking is easier now? Maybe I just need to get used to the timing, but I've been having a little more difficulties with it than I did pre 1.0.4. It seems like a number of our KO options have been nerfed which sucks because it wasn't always easy to get a KO with Greninja in the first place. I was REALLY hoping DACUS would make it in as that would've been a great approach/in your face option for people trying to space us out not to mention great for punishing landings. Greninja had a great distance he covered with it.

 

[KERO]

So, this is interesting. I was able to get a 20 hit combo against R.O.B. via Utilt to Uair to Utilt, etc., This may actually be a big thing for Greninja now.

 

[Ticker]

Honestly, Greninja feels like he was completely butchered. Up-smash either needed the end lag nerf or the damage nerf, not both. Shurikens and hydro pump should of been left alone. From just playing a bit, i'm finding it alot harder to secure a kill.

 

[Skellyton]

I knew something felt wrong with the shuriken!!! I used to always grab people out of it but it feels almost impossible to do. My friends kept on telling me that i was imagining things and that they didn't do anything the it but i was right (sadly)

 

[Weeman]

What about the shadow sneak nerf? I've heard you cannot cancel your landing lag with it anymore

 

[Spirst]

What about the shadow sneak nerf? I've heard you cannot cancel your landing lag with it anymore

This is true and probably so well-known that Martin forgot to add it. Basically, it's so overt, it's covert.

 

[Nebulas]

Greninja just doesnt feel that good anymore :C, It really makes me sad because he was an amazing secondary for me. Also sheik got nerfed because Up Air and Down B Got nerfed and those were some of her main kill moves! This update just really makes me sad. But maybe some of these changes wont affect the wii u version (atleast I hope).

 

[Saixe]

Fair and Nair really feel fast now.

 

[joaoTforce]

Fair and Nair really feel fast now.

Yeah I agree, they really feel a lot faster, but it might be because everything I used to do feels slower lol

 

[BatShark]

Fair speed is exactly the same. I've had discussions on how Greninja can just barely not get out the startup on a second Fair in a single full jump and it's identical now. Nair I can't speak to as easily but it doesn't really feel faster to me, can't confirm/disconfirm that one but I doubt it.

 

[Kinslayer]

Yeah I agree, they really feel a lot faster, but it might be because everything I used to do feels slower lol

No they aren't faster... People need to quit making up buffs.lol

Greninja is still good and people who are leaving him due to minor nerfs didn't really like him and only played him because he was kind of absurd.

 

[T0MMY]

I'm a little disillusioned from the nerfs, if Greninja has difficulties leading into KO's then he'll probably drop from being my primary character. I've played too many characters that suffered from too many disadvantages for too long (Pichu & R.O.B.), it was fun playing a character I both liked and could provide me with higher level play options.
So, I'll give post 1.0.4 Grenjy a fair play, but I won't mind moving him over to For Fun! with R.O.B. and Pac Man and pick up another For Glory character.

 

[Funkermonster]

The Shadow Sneak cancel removal, I could live with that. Hydro Pump nerf? Barely noticed it in my experience today, still seems to work for me at least. But the nerfs to Uair (I KNEW there was something funny with this move when I tried it) and Usmash? Absurd. The least they could've done was give a buff to Substitue and make it faster or something.

Hopefully these nerfs will be undone in the next patch, they were totally unnecessary in my opinion.

 

[Kikaioh]

After playing For Glory a few hours this afternoon, I feel like getting KOs is more of an uphill battle than in the past. Part of it is because, for me anyways, the dive kick used to be a good reaction move (esp. against projectile characters), and not having the SS for a follow-up makes me a lot more hesitant to dive kick than I used to. But probably more so, is not being able to accurately pull off the dash usmash, which for me was generally a great move for reliably chasing down and catching opponents about to land, and was a great KO move because of its mobility. After a bit of practice though, I think I'm getting the hang of pulling it off more reliably (it feels like there's a sweet spot that you have to commit to, but it's very particular). The timing changes with lag though, in general are throwing my pace off.

 

[lotad]

I feel like nintendo is simply changing random things on characters and calling it balance lol.

 

[FullMoon]

Just pointing out, Shifting Shuriken also has the same ending lag as Water Shuriken, making comboing with it a bit more annoying but still easily done.

 

[Karasu]

I think Nintendo doesn't want to be good characters in this generation of Smash.
So instead of a huge buff for mid/low-tiers they buffed them only a bit and nerfed top-tiers.

So I can see why they nerved Up-Shmash and Hydropump. I cannot really understand the Shuriken-Nerv but whatever. Hyphen should be easier on the WiiU-version and is probably hard to pull off because of the removal of DACUS.

But I really want to know why Sub didn't get a buff. Greninja was good because despite having a near useless move his other attacks were so good that he could compensate it. Now his moves are good but he STILL has this bearly useable Sub...

And still no Custom-moves without equippment...

 

[Sabaca]

The second hit of the upper hitbox(sweetspot) did 14% before the patch and now does 19% + the 5% for the first hit so you can do 24% instead of 19% with an uncharged upsmash now.

 

[Kenjin]

Seriously, Greninja is going to be a mid/low tier now.
I DO hope he will be buffed again, now he just can't be played anymore.

 

[bajisci]

We definitely got the worst nerfs by far, which I would've been okay with if diddy got the same treatment, but that dumb ass monkey is still OP. The nerfs to our uair and fair were SO unnecessary, god damn.

EDIT: The frame data on fair and nair are exactly the same.

2nd EDIT: Shadow sneak has less ending lag on the ground too, I tested it side by side using 2 3ds's. Its like 3-5 frames less lag it seems like using 1/4 speed in training mode. Using this move def seems more realistic.

 

[Darthrai]

This is a shame, part of Greninja's appeal to me was how good he was. Lucario might replace him on my list of mains, but I'd have to try out both characters first.

 

[Thinkaman]

I decided to make a separate thread for all Greninja`s changes after the new patch we`ve found so far to have them all in one place. I tested every single Greninja`s move before and after the patch against Mario on the edge of FD and here are all the changes I can confirm:

NERFS:
- Usmash has more end lag (nothing seems to combo out of it anymore, not even Uair)
- sourspot Usmash received a damage nerf to 11% uncharged and 15% fully charged (from 13-18%) and kills at 124% uncharged (instead of 104%) and at 86% fully charged (instead of 69%)
- Water Shuriken (charged and uncharged) has more ending and landing lag. This makes it very hard but still possible to combo Usmash or Grab into fully charged WS by chasing after it. However medium charged WS -> Jab does not combo anymore.
- Hydro Pump pushback got reduced and damage remained the same
- Uair knockback got reduced. It kills now at 153% instead of 132%. However damage is the same.
- 5. hit of Uair lost its spike properties and the spike caused by the first 4 hits is much weaker.
- Uair spike does not cause ground bounce anymore which means Greninja lost its infinite ground bounce combo.
- Fair knockback got reduced. It kills now at 121% instead of 108%.
- Hyphen Usmash is harder to perform
- DACUS is gone

BUFFS:
+ Dsmash received a damage buff. Sweetspot Dsmash deals 13-18 damage (up from 11-15) and kills at 101%-67% (instead of 125%-92%) while sourspot Dsmash deals 11-15 damage (up from 9-12) and kills at 119%-84% (instead of 142%-101%)
+ Shadow Sneak has less ending lag in the air. Before you could barely make it back to the stage if you used SS twice off stage from a full jump and now you can almost make it back after using SS three times.
+ Uair spike is easier to perform because it is easier to fast fall out of Uair in time.
+ Uair spike now truly combos into almost everything including Jab, Dtilt, Utilt and even Usmash. So far I even managed to do Uair spike -> Utilt -> Usmash.

I have the game side-by-side. I confirm all of these.

+ Fair and Nair seem to have lower start-up lag

This is false.

 

[Cookie_Aroma]

2nd EDIT: Shadow sneak has less ending lag on the ground too, I tested it side by side using 2 3ds's. Its like 3-5 frames less lag it seems like using 1/4 speed in training mode. Using this move def seems more realistic.

I did the same tests yesterday, and got the same result, so +1 confirmation for that.

 

[InfinityZERO]

We definitely got the worst nerfs by far, which I would've been okay with if diddy got the same treatment, but that dumb *** monkey is still OP. The nerfs to our uair and fair were SO unnecessary, god damn.

EDIT: The frame data on fair and nair are exactly the same.

2nd EDIT: Shadow sneak has less ending lag on the ground too, I tested it side by side using 2 3ds's. Its like 3-5 frames less lag it seems like using 1/4 speed in training mode. Using this move def seems more realistic.

Rosaluma says hi. The Luma Shot doesn't work like a Shadow Sneak anymore (used to be "too far away to FSmash for a punish? Luma Shot"). She is slower, USmash on Rosalina has reduced knockback (she didn't even have many knockback moves besides this one), 12 second Luma respawns (I can agree to this), Dair is harder to hit with.

 

[bajisci]

You dont have to basically relearn your character entirely, though i agree her nerfs were heavy too. luma shot not going as far is not really a nerf, its a design change, you can argue its better since itll be easier to set up traps and stuff. Not to mention luma coming back faster is a huge buff allowing much better seperated luma play. At the end of the day we just have to rage at diddy.

 

[TheOnlyGBeast]

the nerfs are noticeable but were probably necessary, imo. I still feel like Greninja is super good and I will still be playing him.

 

[T-block]

Yeah, chill out guys... the nerfs aren't unreasonable, and are certainly no reason to drop the character completely.

I actually got the play the Wii U version last night, and played mostly Greninja. Running u-smash is indeed super easy to do with a C-stick, as expected.

Shadow Sneak buff is nice. It also FEELS like it kills earlier (although this may just be due to the removal of vectoring), which is really awesome, because with u-smash nerfed, having another semi-reliable kill move is great.

Also, grab might have more range? Pivot grabs in particular are huuuuuge and it feels great.

 

[TheOnlyGBeast]

how are people getting it early?

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

Why are people quitting the character? Even with these needs, he's still really good.

 

[Kikaioh]

I actually got the play the Wii U version last night, and played mostly Greninja. Running u-smash is indeed super easy to do with a C-stick, as expected.

That's a relief thanks for mentioning, I was hoping it might still work with a C-Stick.

 

[MartinAW4]

Thanks guys for helping with the testing. I added the removal of Shadow Sneak`s landing lag cancelling properties which I forgot to add yesterday.
I also explained that the Hyphen Usmash nerf and DACUS removal applies to all characters and thanks to bajisci I could sadly deconfirm the lower Fair and Nair startup lag.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Seriously, Greninja is going to be a mid/low tier now.
I DO hope he will be buffed again, now he just can't be played anymore.

Are you on crack?

 

[tenyearwarranty]

Can confirm that Fastfall Shadow Sneak is gone. Running shadow sneak and platform shadow sneaking are still in.

 

[MartinAW4]

Can confirm that Fastfall Shadow Sneak is gone. Running shadow sneak and platform shadow sneaking are still in.

Thanks for reminding me that I forgot to add the fast fall SS removal. And I can also confirm that running SS is still in. But I haven`t tested platform SS yet, so good to know that it is still in as well.

@ FullMoon
You`re right, other custom Shurikens also have more end lag. I added it to the OP.

@ Sabaca
I can deconfirm this. Sweetspot Usmash still deals the same 5+14% and has the same knockback. Only sourspot Usmash got its damage changed from 13% to 11%.

 

[KERO]

There actually isn't a hyphen Usmash nerf. If you go into Training Mode and go 1/4x speed, allowing you to more quickly make the input, hyphen smash goes just as far as jump canceled Usmash. Once the Wii U version hits, we'll be once again able to run around with Usmash, albeit with more endlag.

 

[MartinAW4]

There actually isn't a hyphen Usmash nerf. If you go into Training Mode and go 1/4x speed, allowing you to more quickly make the input, hyphen smash goes just as far as jump canceled Usmash. Once the Wii U version hits, we'll be once again able to run around with Usmash, albeit with more endlag.

The nerf to hyphen Usmash isn`t in its range but in the much stricter timing required to pull it off. Before you could just hold up while dashing and press A at any point to get a guaranteed hyphen Usmash, but now it seems that you have to input Up and A almost at the same time just as if you wanted to perform an Usmash while standing still.