Grand Old Thread: League of Legends!

[Sinister Slush]

Before I got bored with mid lane when I hit diamond 1, I played virtually every mid laner outside of Talon Ziggs Nid Brand Gragas annie... dumb ones like that.
Most mages I also played top lane cause it worked/eventually became meta ala Lissandra Swain.

I've gotten pentas with mumu mid.
Speaking of mumu, my mystery gift was emumu ;;

 

[Dre89]

I don't get what it is about Liss that makes her an acceptable top laner when other mages don't go there. I'm guessing it's that she has an escape. It's not like she's innately tankier or she has any sustain.

 

[john!]

she can engage and disengage and has tons of CC. usually the top/jungler are expected to provide those things.

 

[Shaya]

She also kinda ****s on melees in lane without too much mana issues IIRC.

 

[Sinister Slush]

No mana issues if she doesn't spam Q all day at least.
Even then (before preseason) getting a mana regen item like morello or athene's mitigate the mana usage anyways cause even if spamming, you're getting procs for her passive much quicker from CDR and extra regen so getting free spells more often.

 

[#HBC | Acrostic]

#Soon

The LCS starts on the 22nd for EU so its gotta be before then at least lol.

Also, Rito gave me Blood Moon Thresh, and considering Thresh is my main support, Im happy with it.

January 21st.

 

[teluoborg]

Rip DFG, I liked building you on Morde. And he won't even get a compensation because rito doesn't consider him an assassin. Rito pls.

 

[Dre89]

So I started playing Lel'koz in mid instead of support and found out that his ult goes through Yasuo's windwall lol.

I dunno why I was playing Ziggs all that time when I can basically do the same things with Lel'koz but also oneshot people if they don't have a blink available.

 

[Espy Rose]

Because Ziggs can deal with junglers.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Because Ziggs actually has waveclear from a far distance.

 

[Dre89]

Ziggs doesn't oneshot both melee and caster waves with a max range bomb, especially not in lane.

Vel can oneshot waves earlier than Ziggs and it costs less mana.

He's actually safer in lane than Ziggs because he can waveclear relatively safely, and he can still snipe CS with Q. He's harder to gank or 1v1 because of his CC and his burst.

Ziggs is just safer in team fights, because he can DPS from a slightly longer range than Vel if Vel wants to optimise his DPS with W and E. Vel is still pretty safe in teamfights anyway but he has more pick potential and burst.

 

[Espy Rose]

You're bad if you can't oneshot with Ziggs.

 

[Sinister Slush]

wut do you mean, velkoz doesn't one shot them either.

A Q at level 4 with (at the time when he was spammed everywhere) with just chalice/athene's he'd clear waves like a monster still. Drop E Q the wave two times before they even reach the turret if the other mid laner cleared their wave to b, then just use his passive auto to get the remaining 2 at the most.

 

[Dre89]

If you think one Ziggs Q will oneshot an entire wave in the early laning phase then you are severely mistaken.

wut do you mean, velkoz doesn't one shot them either.

A Q at level 4 with (at the time when he was spammed everywhere) with just chalice/athene's he'd clear waves like a monster still. Drop E Q the wave two times before they even reach the turret if the other mid laner cleared their wave to b, then just use his passive auto to get the remaining 2 at the most.

Exactly, Q at level 4. Pre6 Vel can wipe casters with W E W, whilst also leaving melees virtually in auto range. Vel also has lower mana costs.

I think Ziggs does more damage late game, but Vel will still out damage the ADC if he gets AoE ultra off. I prefer Vel more because he still does hypercarry damage, but is aslo safer and has more burst/pick potential. I'd probably only pick Ziggs now into harmless mids like Karth and Anivia to match their scaling because I know they won't kill me.

 

[Sinister Slush]

hrmz
Bouncing Bomb RANGE: 850 - 1400 COST: 50 / 60 / 70 / 80 / 90 MANA COOLDOWN: 6 / 5.5 / 5 / 4.5 / 4
MAGIC DAMAGE: 75 / 120 / 165 / 210 / 255 (+ 65% AP)

Hexplosive Minefield RANGE: 900 COST: 70 / 80 / 90 / 100 / 110 MANA COOLDOWN: 16

• MAGIC DAMAGE PER MINE: 40 / 65 / 90 / 115 / 140 (+ 30% AP)
• REDUCED DAMAGE PER MINE:16 / 26 / 36 / 46 / 56 (+ 12% AP)
• MAX SINGLE TARGET DAMAGE:200 / 325 / 450 / 575 / 700(+ 150% AP)

Void Rift RANGE: 1050 COST: 50 / 55 / 60 / 65 / 70 MANA + 1 CHARGE STATIC COOLDOWN: 1.5 RECHARGE TIME: 19 / 18 / 17 / 16 / 15
INITIAL MAGIC DAMAGE: 30 / 50 / 70 / 90 / 110 (+ 25% AP) DETONATION MAGIC DAMAGE: 45 / 75 / 105 / 135 / 165 (+ 37.5% AP) MAXIMUM DAMAGE: 75 / 125 / 175 / 225 / 275 (+ 62.5% AP)

Tectonic Disruption RANGE: 850 COST: 50 / 55 / 60 / 65 / 70 MANA COOLDOWN: 16 / 15 / 14 / 13 / 12

• MAGIC DAMAGE: 70 / 100 / 130 / 160 / 190 (+ 50% AP)

urg

Ziggs Q, 2.4 cd when level 5 with 40 cdr, early on 6 seconds, 350 extra range, Mana the same level 1 then increases by 5 10 15 20, Vel W only hold two charges and need to wait almost 20 seconds level 1/2 of W to use eet, level 5 it keeps the static cd of 15 to get a charge, still only able to use 2 in total. Since it's a recharge doubt cdr lowers the recharge rate, even if it does, 15 from 40% isn't much still, 9 seconds.

Ziggs would've thrown 4 bombs by now, 9 seconds to only get one charge which doesn't kill creeps without the second one which two void rifts can't be out at the same time. With baron buff being transferred to minions too, velkoz E can't reach the baron buffed up canon creep unless he wants to risk getting caught by thresh blitz etc.

275 + 62.5 of AP, let's say 500, that = 587.5 damage from one. 2 charges being 1175. One wave gone, now to wait 9 seconds to get one charge
Ziggs Q 255 + 65% of AP still 500 so 325, = 580. In 4 seconds ziggs can throw 2 bombs so 1160

Ziggs E, 900 range 50 more than the pop up from vel E, dunno much for ziggs E damage since not same targets being hit of course and usually leaves out 3 or 4 bombs on each side of minion wave but his long range Q is killing em anyways and slowing them so if he throws some before the first few run into it, the minions in the back get hit by the slow and gives him more time for 2nd bomb even tho he doesn't need it.
Only thing velkoz has going for him is it costs less mana and lower cd then minefield but ziggs at least stays out so long if other bombs aren't destroyed he'll get em back out again (40% cdr + 16sec = 9.6, minefields last 10 seconds)

Ziggs also has an escape.

urk

 

[#HBC | Acrostic]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BOQI-LAEzM

 

[Espy Rose]

 

[Dre89]

hrmz
Bouncing Bomb RANGE: 850 - 1400 COST: 50 / 60 / 70 / 80 / 90 MANA COOLDOWN: 6 / 5.5 / 5 / 4.5 / 4
MAGIC DAMAGE: 75 / 120 / 165 / 210 / 255 (+ 65% AP)

Hexplosive Minefield RANGE: 900 COST: 70 / 80 / 90 / 100 / 110 MANA COOLDOWN: 16

• MAGIC DAMAGE PER MINE: 40 / 65 / 90 / 115 / 140 (+ 30% AP)
• REDUCED DAMAGE PER MINE:16 / 26 / 36 / 46 / 56 (+ 12% AP)
• MAX SINGLE TARGET DAMAGE:200 / 325 / 450 / 575 / 700(+ 150% AP)

Void Rift RANGE: 1050 COST: 50 / 55 / 60 / 65 / 70 MANA + 1 CHARGE STATIC COOLDOWN: 1.5 RECHARGE TIME: 19 / 18 / 17 / 16 / 15
INITIAL MAGIC DAMAGE: 30 / 50 / 70 / 90 / 110 (+ 25% AP) DETONATION MAGIC DAMAGE: 45 / 75 / 105 / 135 / 165 (+ 37.5% AP) MAXIMUM DAMAGE: 75 / 125 / 175 / 225 / 275 (+ 62.5% AP)

Tectonic Disruption RANGE: 850 COST: 50 / 55 / 60 / 65 / 70 MANA COOLDOWN: 16 / 15 / 14 / 13 / 12

• MAGIC DAMAGE: 70 / 100 / 130 / 160 / 190 (+ 50% AP)

urg

Ziggs Q, 2.4 cd when level 5 with 40 cdr, early on 6 seconds, 350 extra range, Mana the same level 1 then increases by 5 10 15 20, Vel W only hold two charges and need to wait almost 20 seconds level 1/2 of W to use eet, level 5 it keeps the static cd of 15 to get a charge, still only able to use 2 in total. Since it's a recharge doubt cdr lowers the recharge rate, even if it does, 15 from 40% isn't much still, 9 seconds.

Ziggs would've thrown 4 bombs by now, 9 seconds to only get one charge which doesn't kill creeps without the second one which two void rifts can't be out at the same time. With baron buff being transferred to minions too, velkoz E can't reach the baron buffed up canon creep unless he wants to risk getting caught by thresh blitz etc.

275 + 62.5 of AP, let's say 500, that = 587.5 damage from one. 2 charges being 1175. One wave gone, now to wait 9 seconds to get one charge
Ziggs Q 255 + 65% of AP still 500 so 325, = 580. In 4 seconds ziggs can throw 2 bombs so 1160

Ziggs E, 900 range 50 more than the pop up from vel E, dunno much for ziggs E damage since not same targets being hit of course and usually leaves out 3 or 4 bombs on each side of minion wave but his long range Q is killing em anyways and slowing them so if he throws some before the first few run into it, the minions in the back get hit by the slow and gives him more time for 2nd bomb even tho he doesn't need it.
Only thing velkoz has going for him is it costs less mana and lower cd then minefield but ziggs at least stays out so long if other bombs aren't destroyed he'll get em back out again (40% cdr + 16sec = 9.6, minefields last 10 seconds)

Ziggs also has an escape.

urk

What part of 'the early laning phase' did you not understand. Every mage can waveclear with levels and items. I specifically mentioned that Vel can clear well pre6 with relative safety and low mana costs. Pre6 it takes Ziggs more spells and mana to waveclear than it does for Vel.


Also Ziggs is worse at escaping than Vel in extended chases. Vel kites way better. On top of a better escape he's actually more capable of killing his attacker if he lands his E. Even in lane it's much easier to kill Ziggs than Vel. With Vel you have to be careful because if you don't save your blink to dodge his E on reaction you're probably dead if he has his ult.

Like I said Ziggs probably does more damage at 6 items but Vel still outdamages ADCs, can still poke and clear safely, but is more of a threat 1v1 and has more pick potential. Ziggs is a better farmer though due to being able to farm two lanes at once with his ult.

 

[Sinister Slush]

If Ziggs does more damage than vel lategame.
And you say vel can outdamage an adc (somehow? unless like vel been hiding in a brush for 2 minutes) then ziggs can outdamage an adc too. Hell prolly take off 70% of their health with his ult from across the map.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Not saying Vel > Ziggs, but Vel does probably have the single highest damage output of any champion in the game in late game teamfights, and a ton of it is true damage. Just so long as he doesnt get jumped on, which of course is his major weakness.

 

[Dre89]

Not saying Vel > Ziggs, but Vel does probably have the single highest damage output of any champion in the game in late game teamfights, and a ton of it is true damage. Just so long as he doesnt get jumped on, which of course is his major weakness.

Yeah I think I was wrong. I thought Ziggs outscaled Vel, but looking at their numbers I'm prettysure Vel still outdamages Ziggs at 500-600 AP, not including passive procs.

Edit- Just did some calcs. With 300 AP, assuming you use both W charges, A Vel spell rotation does 2780 damage (2360 with just one W charge). At 600 AP, if you count just one mine from E (because who steps on multiple mines), a Ziggs spell rotation does 2425). If you count the maximum single target damage possible for E, the rotation goes up to 3705 (max single target damage E is 1700). But this is irrelevant because no one will ever take that much dmg from E.

So on bases and AP ratios alone, Vel still outdamages Ziggs with half the AP. This is not even factoring in Liandry's procs, trtue damage procs, the extra magic pen, and even the fact that you can afford to get more CDR than Ziggs with this build (Vel can get max with scaling CDR blues and still have over 300 AP).

 

[teluoborg]

Yeah and at 300 AP a lvl 18 Fiddle drain + ult does 3875 damage. Vel and Ziggs get rekt, Fiddle has better late game damage amirite.

Morale of the story : it's not about the damage, it's about reliable damage output.

 

[Dre89]

Yeah and at 300 AP a lvl 18 Fiddle drain + ult does 3875 damage. Vel and Ziggs get rekt, Fiddle has better late game damage amirite.

Morale of the story : it's not about the damage, it's about reliable damage output.

Vel's is reliable though? He has long range poke and basically his entire combo is guaranteed off a Q if they don't have a blink available. It's more tricky in teamfights, but I normally position myself a bit behind the frontline and wait for the optimal time to use my combo. It's not like you have to blow your load straight away, you have 7 seconds between spells to keep your passive up. A lot of times I kite back with my basic spells then ult when they can't reach me and I'm still proccing my passive 3 or 4 or times on an individual target.

 

[teluoborg]

Yes, now compare this to how easily and safely a Ziggs can apply his burst.

I hope you see my point now.

 

[Cheerilee]

It's not like you have to blow your load straight away...

Oh my god.

 

[Dre89]

Yes, now compare this to how easily and safely a Ziggs can apply his burst.

I hope you see my point now.

It's not that much safer. Vel still has a good effective range. Velkoz actually has true burst because his abilities combo into each other and then into his ult. Ziggs can stand further back but Vel has better tools for escaping once he's been jumped on than Ziggs does.

Like yeah Ziggs is technically safer, but Vel is safe enough anyway that you can reliably pull off your combo, and he does way more damage. Being more safe doesn't really matter if the higher damage mage, who also has more pick potential and better kiting is safe enough to do their job as well.

 

[Espy Rose]

Why is this still being discussed?

 

[Z'zgashi]

Yeah and at 300 AP a lvl 18 Fiddle drain + ult does 3875 damage. Vel and Ziggs get rekt, Fiddle has better late game damage amirite.

Morale of the story : it's not about the damage, it's about reliable damage output.

This. Vel easily has one of, if not the highest damage output, but his immobility and the ability to outplay his entire skillset makes him unreliable and unsafe if he blows even a single non W cooldown.

Regardless, all bout dat support Vel, CC for days and still do 3k+ per teamfight in true damage while building nothing but CDR and wards.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Yeah and at 300 AP a lvl 18 Fiddle drain + ult does 3875 damage. Vel and Ziggs get rekt, Fiddle has better late game damage amirite.

Morale of the story : it's not about the damage, it's about reliable damage output.

*resists the urg to wording-nazi your post because the point is obvious*

Still fiddle's damage output lategame is insane when he crowstorms into 5, enough that it might even be worth building your comp around making sure he can get it.

 

[teluoborg]

@ Dre89 No, a 2 target max slow and an inferior cho gath Q are not better escape tools than an aoe slow and a ****ing dash (that also knocks enemies back if they're too close). Please.

Vel koz is indeed a big damage source even when built support, but the instant he gets jumped on he's dead unless there's someone to peel for him.

 

[Z'zgashi]

@ Dre89 No, a 2 target max slow

*3

 

[Player-3]

velkoz sucks mid b/c lategame u just get ran over by tanks

u ever tried to run away from a singed with velkoz

that **** dont work

 

[adumbrodeus]

oh lord i can just imagine

 

[#HBC | Acrostic]

http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.c...aft-featured-game-mode-coming-soon-to-the-pbe

 

[Z'zgashi]

As someone who already plays Urgot on occasion, my body is ready.

 

[#HBC | Acrostic]

Riot brought Warwick back this patch.

 

[Dre89]

velkoz sucks mid b/c lategame u just get ran over by tanks

u ever tried to run away from a singed with velkoz

that **** dont work

I guess front lines and peel don't exist in high level play then.

Might as well not play ADCs then seeing as a lot of them have worse kiting than Vel and tanks can just run at them and kill them.

 

[Player-3]

I guess front lines and peel don't exist in high level play then.

Might as well not play ADCs then seeing as a lot of them have worse kiting than Vel and tanks can just run at them and kill them.

adcs do not have worst kiting than velkoz

lol

velkoz is not a bad champion im just trying to explain to you why he is not played, he just isnt the best at his job

 

[Z'zgashi]

Furor enchantment OP.

 

[teluoborg]

You know what else is op ? Portals

Come on Rito how could you not see that coming.