Official General Post-DLC Discussion [Closed]

[777Laser]

I never said it could not be used, I stated that it was not fact and that you were misrepresenting information to better conform to your perspective because you do not have evidence that is not completely and utterly circumstantial at best.

I edited my post to say "Exactly, which can be used for support until refuted. It's simply weaker than factual evidence. He provided evidence, and I'm insisting for more off of observation"

I understand the fallacies of my argument, and that it could be stronger but I'm not to invested into it, and it's me against several people lol. I'm just entertaining points until one side is proven flat out wrong. No side has conceded and both still stand. You are right though, need more factual evidence to win an argument.

 

[Amiiben]

Anyone who thinks Banjo Kazooie is obscure or unknown is really kidding themselves.

I don't think Banjo is obscure or unknown,I just think Rayman is more iconic than Banjo

 

[RetroBro]

Fixed it

Thanks, but no. He's a well known gaming icon of the 5th generation of consoles. End of story.

 

[Morbi]

Anyone who thinks Banjo Kazooie is obscure or unknown is really kidding themselves.

I agree wholeheartedly, I am sure that some Banjo and Kazooie fans overstate his significance to an extent; however, none of that changes that fact that he is notable enough to be recognized by Sakurai and potentially included in the game. To me, that is all that is relevant.

Notice how I used the word relevant correctly instead of substituting it for the word "recent." Take notes, kids.

 

[TheDarkKnightNoivern]

Thanks, but no. He's a well known gaming icon of the 5th generation of consoles. End of story.

Yeah of the 5th generation of gaming consoles, nothing before or after, that's really not saying a lot when you consider that all the other 3rd parties are still relevant to this day AND are older to boot

 

[ジョルノ ジョフラミンゴ]

Conker is a great selling point as well. I am not sure which was intended to be the highlight in all honestly. I figured Banjo was just because they used three of his games. That being said, from a pure aesthetic point of view, I can see where you are coming from.


And what does relevancy entail?

Relevancy alone isn't really anything, but when you pair with age and popularity it becomes a huge factor. Rayman and Bomberman have all 3 and with BK doesn't really have relevancy. Imo

 

[Morbi]

Yeah of the 5th generation of gaming consoles, nothing before or after, that's really not saying a lot when you consider that all the other 3rd parties are still relevant to this day

In my opinion it is erroneous to directly compare Banjo to all of the third-party characters already in Smash Brothers. Unless Sakurai blatantly asserted that the next third-party character had to be on par with those characters, the point is moot. If he did, we would all be talking about Master Chief instead as he is vastly more iconic than most third-party characters in the game.

 

[777Laser]

Question.

Why is Banjo "dead"?

When his main two games keep getting rereleased each gen...

In fact, Banjo has had an appearance as recently as this Summer.

If a port of SF on 3DS counts, then so does Rare Replay by all accounts. If he's still around in some way each gen, his last game was last gen... why is he dead?

Is F-Zero dead?

What about Metroid?

No new production to revive the series, no remakes, no push to promote it, just reupping old games like you up old photos. It's dead, but being "remembered in memory ." It's not even living beyond its age, just being reiterated through different .....Couldn't think of the word lol.

 

[RetroBro]

Yeah of the 5th generation of gaming consoles, nothing before or after, that's really not saying a lot when you consider that all the other 3rd parties are still relevant to this day

It doesn't matter. He's made a lasting impact on the gaming industry, whether it's due to his games being the only true competitors to Mario 64, or whether it's due to nostalgia. He's a memorable character that many didn't think was possible until Phil Spencer decided to say it'd be cool to see Banjo in the Smash line up. And he SAID that because he knows of Banjo's important history with Nintendo/Rare's relationship.

Relevancy is fine argument to use against him, but his history with Nintendo easily eclipses that.

Given Sakurai's unpredictability, and his willingness to think outside the box. No one should be questioning Banjo's chances of entering Smash 4.

 

[TheDarkKnightNoivern]

In my opinion it is erroneous to directly compare Banjo to all of the third-party characters already in Smash Brothers. Unless Sakurai blatantly asserted that the next third-party character had to be on par with those characters, the point is moot. If he did, we would all be talking about Master Chief instead as he is vastly more iconic than most third-party characters in the game.

It's implied though since all we've had in the 3rd party department are extremely iconic characters, that have spanned multiple generations and are still relevant

 

[Morbi]

No new production to revive the series, no remakes, no push to promote it, just reupping old games like you up old photos. It's dead, but being "remembered in memory ." It's not even living beyond its age, just being reiterated through different .....Couldn't think of the word lol.

By my definition, a series is only dead once there is no more content (re-released or not) and the creator or official that can speak in regard to the series' future claims that it is finished. The game is not only remembered in my memory, I just purchased it this Summer and played it on my Xbox One. Although the series' future is ambiguous, I do not believe that Microsoft has ever claimed that they would never make another game. It is more or less just on the back-burner.

Basically, I prefer the term dormant. That is just me though.

 

[SuperNintendoDisney]

Relevancy is irrelevant

 

[Morbi]

It's implied though since all we've had in the 3rd party department are extremely iconic characters, that have spanned multiple generations and are still relevant

In that event, I fail to recognize the point of this discussion. If a third-party character needs to be on par with the other third-party characters in Smash, we are not going to get Banjo, Rayman, or Bomberman. If it does need to be, we will get Master Chief, or Lara Croft perhaps. Those both seem outlandish. So, I guess that implies that none of the remaining characters will be third-party characters because we already have all of the essential a-list characters in Smash that seem feasible to the fan-base. Yay.

 

[Deleted member]

Never said my opinion was fact. What IS a fact is that Banjo hasn't had a new game (not counting re-releases) lately, while Rayman and Bomberman have. And New Game=Relevancy.

Why don't rereleases count?

Did you read your post " best seller of summer of 2015'' I am pretty sure that more games sold more especially with Splatoon,Gears of War and Until Dawn,etc

Best seller = best selling game. The point is, it sold a hell of a lot.

Why are you arguing semantics?

Banjo being more iconic than Rayman is an opinion though don't act like it is a fact. Also Fzero could be considered a dormant franchise. It hasn't had anything in a while and shows no indication of getting anything new.

So is Banjo dormant, or dead? Quit changing your terms.

And the point here is to disprove that Rayman is more iconic, a commonly thrown misconception.

You can't claim one as fact, but then backtrack and say it's subjective when you're getting BTFO.

Honestly, from sales to lasting appeal, that claim has been disproven, but people still like to believe their perception is absolute.

Answer me this, how can you claim Rayman is more iconic when he's a literal who in Japan while Banjo is well known. At least well enough to have been voted for on polls for Melee and was already considered by Sakurai, but denied due to "adult matters?"

 

[777Laser]

Relevancy is irrelevant

That's a contradiction

 

[ジョルノ ジョフラミンゴ]

By my definition, a series is only dead once there is no more content (re-released or not) and the creator or official that can speak in regard to the series' future claims that it is finished. The game is not only remembered in my memory, I just purchased it this Summer and played it on my Xbox One. Although the series' future is ambiguous, I do not believe that Microsoft has ever claimed that they would never make another game. It is more or less just on the back-burner.

Basically, I prefer the term dormant. That is just me though.

I think people use the term "Dead" only when it seems damn near impossible for the company to make a new game for the series. I refer to the Mega Man series as dead (sadly) because of this exact reason.

 

[777Laser]

By my definition, a series is only dead once there is no more content (re-released or not) and the creator or official that can speak in regard to the series' future claims that it is finished. The game is not only remembered in my memory, I just purchased it this Summer and played it on my Xbox One. Although the series' future is ambiguous, I do not believe that Microsoft has ever claimed that they would never make another game. It is more or less just on the back-burner.

Basically, I prefer the term dormant. That is just me though.

Reviving the series would imply it's dead though. But it's not dead in a normal sense, so dormant works, dead works. Synonymous

 

[TheDarkKnightNoivern]

In that event, I fail to recognize the point of this discussion. If a third-party character needs to be on par with the other third-party characters in Smash, we are not going to get Banjo, Rayman, or Bomberman. If it does need to be, we will get Master Chief, or Lara Croft perhaps. Those both seem outlandish. So, I guess that implies that none of the remaining characters will be third-party characters because we already have all of the essential a-list characters in Smash that seem feasible to the fan-base. Yay.

They don't have to be on par they just have to be on a similar level of iconicness (that's not a word...) which I would say someone like Rayman is.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Just to keep the Smash tradition going...

On the topic of Banjo, I feel that he's still iconic to older fans. I think his inclusion would be warranted if only because RARE helped make the SNES era a rousing success and played a giant part in making the N64 era not be a total disaster with so many of Nintendo's third party supporters bailing.

 

[predator_21476]

Why don't rereleases count?


Best seller = best selling game. The point is, it sold a hell of a lot.

Why are you arguing semantics?


So is Banjo dormant, or dead? Quit changing your terms.

And the point here is to disprove that Rayman is more iconic, a commonly thrown misconception.

You can't claim one as fact, but then backtrack and say it's subjective when you're getting BTFO.

Honestly, from sales to lasting appeal, that claim has been disproven, but people still like to believe their perception is absolute.

Answer me this, how can you claim Rayman is more iconic when he's a literal who in Japan while Banjo is well known. At least well enough to have been voted for on polls for Melee and was already considered by Sakurai, but denied due to "adult matters?"

Because to younger people he is. The character has had recent new releasesthat weren't bundled with tons of other games. I would consider banjo a dormant franchise possibly dead. Microsoft might do something with him though. Also banjo may be more iconic I don't really know or care. Neither of them are iconic as the rest of the third parties which is what I think really matters.

 

[777Laser]

I would take Banjo over many third parties IF Sakurai announced him along with Sora

 

[Amiiben]

Why don't rereleases count?


Best seller = best selling game. The point is, it sold a hell of a lot.

Why are you arguing semantics?


So is Banjo dormant, or dead? Quit changing your terms.

And the point here is to disprove that Rayman is more iconic, a commonly thrown misconception.

You can't claim one as fact, but then backtrack and say it's subjective when you're getting BTFO.

Honestly, from sales to lasting appeal, that claim has been disproven, but people still like to believe their perception is absolute.

Answer me this, how can you claim Rayman is more iconic when he's a literal who in Japan while Banjo is well known. At least well enough to have been voted for on polls for Melee and was already considered by Sakurai, but denied due to "adult matters?"

I am pretty sure It did not sell a million. Which would not be a best seller I know it was a success but it did not make people want to have a xbox one

 

[Aetheri]

I'm sensing hostilities from the past few pages...again...

Firstly we need to stop comparing characters to other characters, because quite frankly I'm sick of seeing people put down other characters to justify another...it leads to nothing but hateful arguments...Cloud is not Banjo, neither is Megaman or Ryu...they all have their own merits...Iconicism isn't a set in stone ideal, there are different circumstances that make certain characters and games iconic...numbers or sales or recognizability aren't the only factors and they don't always need to go hand in hand...there needs to be some symbolism involved with the characters in question on their own terms, not in comparison to other characters...If we are going to keep talking about 'casuals' or 'non-gamers' then we really can't look any farther than Mario, Pikachu, Sonic, and Pac-man (even Megaman isn't really that well known to a lot of these people)...Obviously not everybody is going to know everybody, that isn't the point of Smash as it already features a butt-ton of characters that the layman won't recognize to begin with...That's not the demographic that these characters are for to begin with...

----

Now when it comes to Banjo & Kazooie, I think people are forgetting how significant their possible inclusion might be...

Spoiler: lots of text

-In a similar regard to Square with FFVII branching away from Nintendo, Rare was sold to Microsoft, who at the time was relatively new to the gaming industry, at least compared to Nintendo...as a result Rare games had been completely exclusive to Microsoft, which is unfortunate given the history they've had with Nintendo at the time...This was also some pretty bad timing for the bear and the bird since Sakurai was considering them for melee's Smash roster...If Banjo was to make it into Smash now that means Nintendo has renewed relations with one of it's biggest third party supporters from back in the day...and now more than ever Nintendo NEEDS third party support...

-Microsoft and Nintendo aren't quite competing as much as we thought...even know before Banjo's possible inclusion, Minecraft (a Microsoft owned IP) is getting a Wii U port, even with Microsoft themselves announcing it on Twitter...Heck people keep wanting to ignore the fact that Phil Spencer is all for Banjo being in smash, cynical detractors like to point out that 'Sure who wouldn't want their character in Smash?' and then move on without batting an eye...'Both sides have to want it' were the words of Sakurai when referring to third-party characters in Smash as this was one of the requirements, Phil Spencer has 'given his blessing' and Sakurai has shown interest in the pair in the past and I'm sure he's aware of how much the fans want him...Cloud was deemed an impossible pick despite the fact that he wasn't even owned by Sony...but when it comes to Banjo & Kazooie that's just one more wall-broken since their rights belong to a direct 'competitor'...at least in the eyes of the fans...

-Rare as I've mentioned earlier was one of Nintendo's biggest third party supporters, especially back in the N64 era...They've even worked on Nintendo's own DKC and have developed other memorable titles for the N64 including Goldeneye, Conker's Bad Fur Day, and of course Banjo & Kazooie; and has even developed some games for the Gamecube before being sold to MS...Rare is a company that was a substantial part of the N64's life cycle producing great titles to go along side Nintendo's own IP's (like I mentioned Rare had even worked on some of these)...Banjo & Kazooie to an extent are Rare's mascots...as a result (I normally don't like to use this word) they 'represent' the N64's Golden era for Nintendo...(One thing to remember when it comes to the N64, it is the birthplace of Smash, where the series started)...Are they iconic? In gaming as a whole, not really. Rare and specifically Banjo & Kazooie haven't really made that big of a dent in gaming history as a whole...but when it comes to Nintendo's history specifically you can't really skip over the games that came to the N64, specifically those made by Rare...This wasn't even including the games the company developed on the SNES either...

-Finally it is a nod to old-school gamers, all those who have played the N64 back in the day remember these games, These characters don't have to be recognized by a bunch of casuals to still be considered iconic...as is the case with a lot of characters in Smash...heck, relevance be damned because this guy sure wasn't that relevant when he made it... There's a reason I brought him up because if you look closely at this fighter and how they function; the whole tag-team mechanic between some kond of mammal and some kind of bird, several attacks that could literally be mirrored from the duo, to even having a conspicuously similar palette swap to the bird and the bear...kinda like how takes several cues from (I still smh when people say Cloud stole Ike's Final Smash), see what I'm getting at here?...Banjo & Kazooie is viewed by some as the character that should've been in the game from the beginning, they were a popular choice in melee amoung Smash fans and now thanks to the Ballot (and Phil's tweet) they are a popular choice once again...this is a prime opportunity for this pair who has a place in this game afterall it's just a matter of commitment at this point...

----

TL;DR
-Nintendo needs third party support and rekindling an old partnership is one of the best ways to do it

-Proves Microsoft vs. Nintendo is nothing but ******** and helps build stronger ties between two otherwise 'rival' companies, almost liek a peace offering in a way...

-'Represents' the N64 era in Nintendo's History...no other character in smash debuted on the N64 (save Sheik, who is technically Zelda, so...)

-brings a character into the game that both Sakurai and the fans have wanted in the past and clearly still do

Keep in mind all this is theoretical and is based solely on 'what if's'...but it is still something to consider...

 

[Banjodorf]

Just to keep the Smash tradition going...

On the topic of Banjo, I feel that he's still iconic to older fans. I think his inclusion would be warranted if only because RARE helped make the SNES era a rousing success and played a giant part in making the N64 era not be a total disaster with so many of Nintendo's third party supporters bailing.

THANK YOU, Fatman!

Rare's impact on Nintendo's current status and history is more directly important than most of the third parties we have now. And certainly Cloud, at the very least.

Aetheri Well said. (Though technically Rare was a first-party subsidiary of Nintendo, just like it is for Microsoft now. Second part at the most.)

 

[Amiiben]

Nevermind this post

 

[BKupa666]

"Little kids wouldn't know who Banjo is."

 

[Aetheri]

"Little kids wouldn't know who Banjo is."

It's funny when people bring this up and say 7 year olds won't recognize such and such...

Well...

 

[ShrekItRalph]

So I just recently watched Dragonball z revival of F... and you know what I kinda want Goku in the game now. I can't imagine another character that could bring as much hype. Plus I love it when Sakurai goes against everyones rules of what characters can get in (like he did with Ryu, Cloud).

Apart from that, I still want Inklings and I think nows the best time to put them in, instead of waiting for whenever the next Smash game is. Splatoon is popular at the moment and I imagine that they would sell a lot better then pretty much any other Nintendo newcomer at this point.

I think Wolf will still get in as well, but not really excited for more returning characters and I hope most of the remaining DLC characters are new ones.

Other then that, I have no Idea what Sakurai is going to do, because no one can predict that dude.

 

[BKupa666]

It's funny when people bring this up and say 7 year olds won't recognize such and such...

Well...

It's one of the most disingenuous and cherry-picking-est arguments speculators have used, and that's saying something.

 

[pupNapoleon]

You know what, we are going to squash Bomberman and Rayman once and for all. Let’s look at our almighty sales to determine which franchise is most iconic, since impact usually determines what makes an icon.

According to Wikipedia & VGChartz, these are the debut dates, total number of games and the total lifetime sales for each franchise:

Bomberman / 1983/ 10 Million

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_video_game_franchises#At_least_5_million_copies

Rayman / 1995 / 20-25 Million

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rayman

Banjo-Kazooie / 1998 / 7 Million

http://www.vgchartz.com/gamedb/?name=kazooie

Comparing these numbers at face value reveals that Rayman is much more popular than the other two and that Banjo Kazooie is at least as popular as Bomberman, right? No

List of Bomberman games:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Bomberman_video_games

List of Rayman games:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rayman

List of Banjo-Kazooie games:

I might as well just list them because there are only four; Banjo-Kazooie, Banjo-Tooie, Grunty’s Revenge and Nut’s & Bolts.

Now, take a look at the massive amount of Rayman and Bomberman games that have been released over the years. Bomberman is just insane, but still, all it could manage is 10 million units? Hardly sets the charts on fire, if at all. Star Fox has sold more as a franchise. Plus, consider that Bomberman is attached to Konami and is more or less a dormant franchise at this point, sadly.

Rayman is even worse. Sure, as a franchise it has sold close to 25 million, but that’s including the Raving Rabbids series. That alone accounts for over 14 million of that total, and really isn’t associated with Rayman whatsoever, and in many cases became more popular than Rayman himself. Adjusting that series out, the mainline Rayman games have really only sold 11 million.

So is Banjo-Kazooie any less iconic than these series? No. Banjo-Kazooie has a similar lifetime sales number to Rayman and Bomberman with much fewer games. Banjo-Kazooie even has a spiritual successor in the works, and that game became the fastest funded game on KickStarter, which just goes to prove my point that Banjo-Kazooie is just as iconic as Rayman and Bomberman, if not for similar sales, then it is for being one of the only games to ever go toe-to-toe with Super Mario 64 during its heyday

More than sales matter.
That's why we don't have 15 pokemon, despite the billions the franchise has earned in sales.

 

[LancerStaff]

BK, Rayman and Bomberman are honestly all about on the same level here, honestly. I don't see any of them being the big character in the Smash presentation. BK only edges out because MS is awfully chummy with Nintendo lately... Probably not happening without Steve or something, though.

 

[Wiley]

If you haven't played Banjo Kazooie, I highly recommend it to anyone with access. Whether they're in Smash or not, you'll have a good time. And the sequel does the original justice.

 

[pupNapoleon]

What's truly sad is that millennial kiddies genuinely believe that Rayman and Shovel Knight are more iconic than Banjo despite all the overwhelming evidence presented to them.

But I suppose we'll find out Tuesday.

Yeah, I guess you're right. 40 (or 45) mins sounds more plausible. It's better for me if it's less than a hour, because the shorter it is, the more likely I'll be able to watch the whole presentation.

The longer it is, the more content there is.
No one who wants more content benefits from having a shorter direct.

 

[CodeBlue_]

Bleh third party arguments

Remember when we used to argue about First Party Characters? Pepperidge Farm Remembers.

Anyway, some thoughts about Banjo. Do we know how he is or was received as a franchise in Japan? I think people may be forgetting the director is Japan focused. Sakurai may not even conceive Banjo as a fighter. We can argue his importance to the N64 era to ourselves, but can we argue that it's important to him?

Banjo isnt in K Rool's position where Sakurai's team has to research his series in every installment. In ordwr for Sakurai to even consider Banjo as series he would probably need a damn good reason. He probably doesn't research most series on his own.

Remember, even Rayman has more evidence for Sakurai recognizing him. He has multiple trophies in the game. (This is not saying Rayman has a better chance though.)

 

[IntelliHeath1]

ENJOY IT!

 

[Lady Byakugan]

I really don't understand how people can consider Banjo to be obscure.

 

[Ura]

This is probably gonna be one of my last posts on SB until the Tuesday Direct (because I want to avoid being spoiled at all costs. That means not being on this site for both Sunday and Monday) so I thought I would do something fun and make as many predictions (feasible or not) as I can using the :4(insert character): thingy. Feel free to do the same as well. (One of these has to be right dammit!)

:4k.rool:
:4isaac:
:4bandannadee:
:4papermario:
:4daisy:
:4impa:
:4tetra:
:4beastganon:
:4sceptile:
:4meowth:
:4ninten:
:4wolf:
:4ylink:
:4pichu:
:4squirtle:
:4ivysaur:

:4crash:
:4banjo:
:4snake:
:4rayman:
:4bomberman:
:4heihachi:
:4scorpion:

 

[Aetheri]

This is probably gonna be one of my last post on SB until the Tuesday Direct (because I want to avoid being spoiled at all costs. That means not being on this site for both Sunday and Monday) so I thought I would do something fun and make as many predictions (feasible or not) as I can using the :4(insert character): thingy. Feel free to do the same as well. (One of these has to be right dammit!)

:4k.rool:
:4isaac:
:4bandannadee:
:4papermario:
:4daisy:
:4impa:
:4tetra:
:4beastganon:
:4sceptile:
:4meowth:
:4ninten:
:4wolf:
:4ylink:
:4pichu:
:4squirtle:
:4ivysaur:

:4crash:
:4banjo:
:4snake:
:4rayman:
:4bomberman:
:4heihachi:
:4scorpion:

why not...listing all my wanted characters...

:4midna:
:4darksamus:
:4ridley:
:4tifa:
:4impa:
:4lara:
:4wolf:
:4glory:
:4banjo:
:4crash:
:4weavile:
:4inkling:
:4krystal:
:4yoshimistsu:
:4snake:
:4pigganon:
:4ashley:

...i wonder if anyone noticed...>.>

 

[Ura]

:4glory:

...i wonder if anyone noticed...>.>

Your welcome.

 

[Kalimdori]

Ooh. This Banjo vs. Rayman argument looks interesting!

And inane

Since when was iconism an easily measured term to the point we can quantify which character has more over the other? Characters are iconic for SO many different reasons, and are iconic to completely different people. I play Starcraft and Warcraft, characters from those series are extremely iconic to me and millions of other gamers, but I doubt they'd mean much at all to most of the people on this board. Personal bias=/=facts, that goes for both sides.

Hell, that's probably why sales are brought up so much. One of the only ways to factually quantify how many fans a character has (# of sales=# of fans=iconic to # of people. Which is a dumb comparison full of holes, but it's the best we can come up with.)