Official General Post-DLC Discussion [Closed]

[ShinyRegice]

You understimate how long it can take to get rights. It took years to get the rights to use Sonic in Brawl, even resulting in the game being delayed; negotiations with Bandai Namco seem to have been easier, but there was still some disagreement from both parts, as Namco was pushing for Hehiachi, while Sakurai wanted Pac-Man, and only on the condition of being allowed to use the classic design. And Square Enix is considered to be a stingier company than both Sega and Namco in regards of the use of their IPs.
And even on the highly unlikely event that everything went smooth, you still have all the paperwork to fill delaying the starting of actual development. Long story short, in any case the timeframe required to choose Cloud from the ballot, get the rights for him, and starting development is incompatible to the battle-ready Cloud we've seen in the direct.
I wouldn't be surprised if history repeated itself and Cloud was actually chosen for the main roster, but had to face the years long negotiations that got in the way of Sonic, with the difference that in this case, DLC was an option to add him later, instead of having to delay the game.

Just a thought about that, there's also the context to consider. Back in Brawl days third-parties in Smash were mostly unprecedented so it seems normal to think about how Sega didn't really want their mascot in a Nintendo all-star fighting game (Sakurai wanted Sonic since the early stages of Brawl's development but Sega at first didn't the idea, it wasn't until later in the game's development that they were convinced). But after Brawl third-parties in Smash became an established part of the series, and by extension third-parties in Smash helped to make the series the biggest massive video game crossover in the industry, which possibly made negotiations with Square Enix easier that what they would have been if they were done for Brawl. Just a matter of context.
I doubt it really means that much and I'm not trying to defend the "Cloud is a ballot character" theory, but maybe the context made the negotiations for Cloud in Smash 4 easier than for Sonic in Brawl. Just something to consider.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

But after Brawl third-parties in Smash became an established part of the series

'After Brawl'? As in. one single game? And even then, it's only a total of 5 third parties now? Especially as Sakurai said he doesn't want any 'willy nilly' non Nintendo characters? I highly doubt this

 

[Kenith]

RE: Scorpion in Smash Bros.:
Despite not being a fan of Mortal Kombat and hating the excessive gore in the newer games, I think this can work fine.

Notes:

1. Mortal Kombat has been separated from its excessive violence several times already. The SNES versions of the original Mortal Kombat trilogy and Ultimate 3 removes the blood and replaces Fatalities with much less violent ones.
Also, the Defenders of the Realm cartoon and Mortal Kombat vs. DC Universe are a lot less violent than usual.

Speaking of the latter:

2.

Scorpion has been cartoony and vibrant before, notably while keeping his character intact. He has a lot of designs he could use, and although this probably isn't one, he could still be close to this colorful.

3. Scorpion and Mortal Kombat are iconic as ****. Like, easily the most iconic fighter after Street Fighter, in fact Mortal Kombat is probably more known in North America. Is there anyone here who hasn't seen this before?

Probably not.
If Scorpion was a requested character, he'd be Cloud-tier hype.

4. . Metal Gear Solid. Another M-rated series that forgoes some violent elements but the main character still feels right.

5. Final point, you can add Scorpion without excessive violence and still keep his character intact. While his series is known mostly for excessive violence, Scorpion himself...isn't really. The infamous Spine Rip fatality is the OTHER ninja character, Sub-Zero, after all.
Scorpion is, at the very least, just an undead ninja with a bladed tether ("Get over here!") and fire attacks. All of that can be represented just fine in Smash Bros.

Again, I don't want Scorpion myself, but he's not a bad choice. He's really iconic and it would be cool to have Mortal Kombat and Street Fighter face off in Smash.

If they added a new fighting game character, my vote is for Nightmare (Soulcalibur).
If they added a new ninja character, my vote is for Ryu Hayabusa (Ninja Gaiden).

But Scorpion's alright.

 

[ShinyRegice]

'After Brawl'? As in. one single game? And even then, it's only a total of 5 third parties now? Especially as Sakurai said he doesn't want any 'willy nilly' non Nintendo characters? I highly doubt this

Brawl a "single game" with third-parties at all compared to previous games which were purely Nintendo. "One single game" in a series with four games (or more accurately, four different rosters among five games). So yeah, it's not nothing.
Third-party contents in Smash only represents a fraction of the game compared to the rest which is Nintendo, and of course third-parties will not be added willy nilly to Smash, but that doesn't make third-party contents in Smash any less of an established part of the series at this point.
What I mean is that I'm pretty sure third-parties are now part of Smash's reputation as the most famous massive video game crossover in the industry. Not that I want even more third-parties in Smash (at this point I'm kind of tired of them stealing the spotlight of potential Nintendo newcomers), but I doubt you can achieve that (and maintain this status) using characters from one single company even with titans like Mario and Pikachu.

 

[Burruni]

On note of Mortal Kombat owner in that tweet:

Everyone wants their characters in Smash, it's free advertising that Nintendo PAYS you for (in order to get the rights of the character).

Edit: Granted, there are people who legitimately are just little fanboys/girls who really wanna see their characters in Smash because it's friggin SMASH! But from a company standpoint there's nothing to lose.

 

[Geno Boost]

If you were Sakurai how your roster will look like in SSB64 and SSBM and SSBB and SSB4? who would you cut? who would you add?

 

[Moon Monkey]

If you were Sakurai how your roster will look like in SSB64 and SSBM and SSBB and SSB4?

who would you cut?


who would you add?

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

The only 3rd parties I'd want at this point would be:
1. Spyro: I love that little purple dragon. And I don't think he'd be out of the realm of possibility, I certainly saw him as more likely than Cloud.
2. Tails: Sonic and Tails just go together in my mind. It'd be great to have them both in Smash. Plus I like having the pairs, for example DK and Diddy, or Mario and Luigi.
3. Snake: So Smashboards discussion doesn't get overly sour

 

[Gimmick]

Again with MK? Hell, if we get a character owned by WB, I'm not going to buy it, not to mention the cartoony style of Smash doesn't fit with the MK canon, judging from how every third party is accurate to their canon as possible (Pac-Man is a tribute to Bamco in general so he gets a free pass), Sakurai wouldn't be able to do it

I'm not even going to touch on the MK stuff, but what's wrong with Warner Bros getting a rep? Are you not aware of the ties they have with Nintendo? They've produce various exclusives for the system including notable game series such as Scribblenauts. Not only that, but they were also responsible for publishing/producing the Pokemon anime.

 

[TheDarkKnightNoivern]

If you were Sakurai how your roster will look like in SSB64 and SSBM and SSBB and SSB4? who would you cut? who would you add?

64 wouldn't have any changes, that's just fine as it is

In Melee I'd get rid of Pichu and Doctor Mario and add Daisy and Impa as Peach and Sheik clones respectively, I would also cut Icies (Just don't care) and Game and Watch (Once again don't care) and add a unique Ganondorf as well as Ridley
Melee
Cut Doctor Mario and Pichu, Add Daisy and Impa as Peach and Sheik clones
Cut Icies and Game & Watch for unique Ganondorf and Ridley, I guess Pichu can come back in place of Ganonclone.

Brawl:
Cut R.O.B and Pokemon Trainer, Add Krystal, Mewtwo, Isaac and Tetra/Toon Zelda

Smash 4:
Cut Wii Fit Trainer, Bowser Jr and Duck Hunt Duo and add Dixie, Wolf and Bandana Dee

 

[WaddleKing]

64: Fine

Melee: Remove Peach and add Wario as the Mario newcomer, replace ICs with Duck Hunt and G&W with Takamaru.

Brawl: Remove PM Trainer and just have Charizard by himself, add Meowth, add Peach, add ICs, add G&W.

Smash 4: Remove Rosalina and replace with Paper Mario, add Wolf, add inseparable Ice Climbers or SoPo to work on the 3DS, add R.O.B. or some other retro character, add a Pokemon Trainer that has Charizard, Greninja and Sceptile as Pokemon, add K. Rool and of course remove Lucina and Dark Pit and have them as alts.

There's probably some questionable decisions in here but these are just some ideas i've had that they could have possibly done, not a fan of removing characters so you can decide whether Rosalina should stay or not.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Jesus christ. I'm so glad none of you are in charge of Smash with all these replacement ideas. Granted, I'm not going to pretend I'm much better, I'd probably replace Ike for Lyn or Hector, but damn, your bias are showing! Everyone put it away before I call the police! There are kids here!

cut Little Mac (I honestly hate him)

As someone who really doesn't like Punch Out, I find this laughable, a highly requested character should never, EVER be disregarded due to being disliked by the creator

 

[Schnee117]

Jesus christ. I'm so glad none of you are in charge of Smash with all these replacement ideas. Granted, I'm not going to pretend I'm much better, I'd probably replace Ike for Lyn or Hector, but damn, your bias are showing! Everyone put it away before I call the police! There are kids here!

Surprised you wouldn't replace Roy.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Surprised you wouldn't replace Roy.

I'd have an idea who to replace him with, but I think it's dumb talking about characters you'd personally want to replace, as hypocritical as it sounds, and I mentioned a Brawl example as Ike having his playstyle and not Hector really bugs me

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I don't see anything wrong with what Sakurai did with the roster.

Only thing I'd have done is add some of the character on earlier titles and maybe add Isaac and/or Paper Mario.

I'd have also given Dark Pit the moveset that Pit had in Brawl to create a few differences.

Also, I'd have brought back Wolf, Snake and added a Grass-type Pokemon in Smash 4

 

[TheDarkKnightNoivern]

Jesus christ. I'm so glad none of you are in charge of Smash with all these replacement ideas. Granted, I'm not going to pretend I'm much better, I'd probably replace Ike for Lyn or Hector, but damn, your bias are showing! Everyone put it away before I call the police! There are kids here!

As someone who really doesn't like Punch Out, I find this laughable, a highly requested character should never, EVER be disregarded due to being disliked by the creator

This is about bias though, that's kinda the point, everyone has a bias, even Sakurai

I just don't like him in a smash sense, he doesn't work right for smash imo, having a terrible air game in a game that requires you to be in the air a lot doesn't make sense to me from a design standpoint

 

[Schnee117]

I'd have an idea who to replace him with, but I think it's dumb talking about characters you'd personally want to replace, as hypocritical as it sounds, and I mentioned a Brawl example as Ike having his playstyle and not Hector really bugs me

Ragnell's a Heavy sword that typically requires two hands to wield. Translating Ike's stats over would yield lots of unbalance. I'd say Ike's moveset is built around Ragnell being a heavy sword and Sakurai was after a Heavy Swordsman.

 

[WaddleKing]

The only biased choice i can see in my roster are the additions of Meowth, SoPo and Paper Mario, i switched around the debut for some of the characters too but that's about it. Also yes Mewtwo, Dr.Mario and Roy get to be in SSB4 too on my roster.
The Pokemon Trainer is because i feel it's the best way to represent the eras of Pokemon, Charizard for Kanto/Johto (Kanto is related to the other region ) Sceptile Hoeen ( Lucario already represents Sinnoh ) and Greninja Kalos, only thing i'm missing is some Unova representation. How would he work on the 3DS? By making him not able to switch between Pokemon mid battle. Hate that idea? Then just stick with the Charizard and Greninja we got.

Sakurai's roster is fine, i will always thank him for creating, adding and voicing the greatest Nintendo character .

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Ragnell's a Heavy sword that typically requires to hands two wield. Translating Ike's stats over would yield lots of unbalance. I'd say Ike's moveset is built around Ragnell being a heavy sword and Sakurai was after a Heavy Swordsman.

What I meant is how it feels like an axewielder suits that moveset better

I just don't like him in a smash sense, he doesn't work right for smash imo, having a terrible air game in a game that requires you to be in the air a lot doesn't make sense to me from a design standpoint

You're forgetting the great trade off for absolute **** air: Amazing everything on the ground outside of grabs, including super armour and a move powerful enough to kill stupidly early. Everyone may joke about Alpharad's '******* on Little Mac' but a good Mac is an absolute beast

 

[TheDarkKnightNoivern]

What I meant is how it feels like an axewielder suits that moveset better

You're forgetting the great trade off for absolute **** air: Amazing everything on the ground outside of grabs, including super armour and a move powerful enough to kill stupidly early. Everyone may joke about Alpharad's '******* on Little Mac' but a good Mac is an absolute beast

I'm still not a fan of how he works regardless, also I just remembered Bowser Jr exists so I'd replace him with Wolf instead

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

You're forgetting the great trade off for absolute **** air: Amazing everything on the ground outside of grabs, including super armour and a move powerful enough to kill stupidly early. Everyone may joke about Alpharad's '******* on Little Mac' but a good Mac is an absolute beast

I agree with this; a good Mac is like, one of the scariest things I've ever seen...or fought against.

 

[Schnee117]

What I meant is how it feels like an axewielder suits that moveset better

You can't exactly do a lot of fancy moves with a heavy sword so having Ike's moveset the way it is makes sense.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I'm still not a fan of how he works regardless, also I just remembered Bowser Jr exists so I'd replace him with Wolf instead

I absolutely hate Jr in the Mario games, but again, what's wrong with including popular characters? This is exactly what my problem with this bias on cuts is. It's not about adding something you want, but getting rid of what you don't like

 

[A Distant Demon]

As I wasn't a big enough Nintendo fan to know how the fanbase felt around melee im just going to make one change to Brawl

Remove ZSS. Add Ridley. I still can't understand a good reason for adding her other than maybe fanservice which is still weird to me.

I would remove Miis as well and replace them if it weren't so biased

 

[Cutie Gwen]

You can't exactly do a lot of fancy moves with a heavy sword so having Ike's moves the way it is makes sense.

It still feels more natural for those moves to have an axe imo. Especially stuff like Uair.

 

[TheDarkKnightNoivern]

I absolutely hate Jr in the Mario games, but again, what's wrong with including popular characters? This is exactly what my problem with this bias on cuts is. It's not about adding something you want, but getting rid of what you don't like

Because we already got a popular Mario character? We didn't need another, Not that I hate Jr I just feel like that slot should've gone to someone else

 

[Schnee117]

It still feels more natural for those moves to have an axe imo. Especially stuff like Uair.

Depends on the type of Axe being used and how the user wields it.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Why are people so mad about Junior being in Smash?

He DESERVES to be there.

Rosalina, however, seems like extra space on the game's roster. Yes, the pun was intentional.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Because we already got a popular Mario character? We didn't need another, Not that I hate Jr I just feel like that slot should've gone to someone else

If anything, having more popular characters is a good thing, especially when Jr was always highly requested, not to mention people wanted more villains in Smash, so Jr fit the bill perfectly

Remove ZSS. Add Ridley. I still can't understand a good reason for adding her other than maybe fanservice which is still weird to me.

Honestly, I feel like ZSS was only added because Sakurai didn't want to give Metroid fans a bone

 

[Schnee117]

Honestly, I feel like ZSS was only added because Sakurai didn't want to give Metroid fans a bone

If anything ZSS is throwing Metroid fans a bone.
"I couldn't make Ridley work so here's ZSS instead!"

 

[Cyn]

Honestly, I feel like ZSS was only added because Sakurai didn't want to give Metroid fans a bone

If anything ZSS is throwing Metroid fans a bone.
"I couldn't make Ridley work so here's ZSS instead!"

If anything it is a nod to Justin Bailey and all the end game images.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

If anything ZSS is throwing Metroid fans a bone.
"I couldn't make Ridley work so here's ZSS instead!"

You're forgetting someone. Dark Samus. A popular character in the fanbase, has been a common request and is actually a different character unlike ZSS. ZSS would be like if Hammer Bro Suit Mario was a playable character alongside the cast, and before you argue Dr. Mario, he was a last minute addition.

 

[Argos]

I missed the top six third parties discussion last thread, so might as well vomit out a list now:

1. Bomberman
2. Snake
3. Phoenix Wright
4. Simon Belmont
5. Banjo and Kazooie
6. Bub and Bob

Honorable mentions include undeniable video game icons like Master Chief and Lara Croft that I don't have any particular affinity for as well as more personal marginal favorites like Viewtiful Joe.

Bomberman and Snake are the only two whose absence makes the game feel a bit "incomplete" to me.

One thing I think gets overlooked a lot is how Square-Enix owns Taito and its properties. Bubble Bobble is probably the franchise most amenable to representation but they also own Cooking Mama(lol) as well as an amazing legacy of arcade games. Space Invaders is up there with Pac-Man, Donkey Kong and Pong in terms of influence and recognition by even those who don't care about video games at all. I don't think it would get a character but I would be surprised if Sakurai (who was obviously obsessed with arcades back in his youth) didn't at least try to get some Space Invaders representation.

 

[WaddleKing]

ZSS felt similar to Shiek, but added so they could show more of the transformation gimmick being used with the Smash Ball. Also because they were stretching it to find a new Metroid rep.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

ZSS felt similar to Shiek, but added so they could show more of the transformation gimmick being used with the Smash Ball. Also because they were stretching it to find a new Metroid rep.

And to tell those who never played a Metroid game that Samus is a girl

 

[TheDarkKnightNoivern]

If anything, having more popular characters is a good thing, especially when Jr was always highly requested, not to mention people wanted more villains in Smash, so Jr fit the bill perfectly

Honestly, I feel like ZSS was only added because Sakurai didn't want to give Metroid fans a bone

Then add K Rool or Ridley or even better, bring back Wolf, I really don't see the need to add another mario character on top of the like 7 we already had

 

[WaddleKing]

They kind of did the same to Sheik, except not only did they spoil the gender but the whole identity.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Then add K Rool or Ridley or even better, bring back Wolf, I really don't see the need to add another mario character on top of the like 7 we already had

Mario's a much more profitable franchise, not to mention that there's no way Wolf was cut for anything other than time constraints. Also, why cut Bowser Jr because '3meny mehrio'? The roster was decided outside of the clones before development. AKA, Bowser Jr AND Rosalina were planned? The biggest complaints about the roster were A: Lack of female characters and B: Lack of villains. We've gotten quite a lot of female characters but only a single new villain. And you want him cut

 

[TheDarkKnightNoivern]

Mario's a much more profitable franchise, not to mention that there's no way Wolf was cut for anything other than time constraints. Also, why cut Bowser Jr because '3meny mehrio'? The roster was decided outside of the clones before development. AKA, Bowser Jr AND Rosalina were planned? The biggest complaints about the roster were A: Lack of female characters and B: Lack of villains. We've gotten quite a lot of female characters but only a single new villain. And you want him cut

I'd cut him because this is a collaboration of all different nintendo franchises and i don't think it's fair that Mario gets 2 new, unique reps while Zelda, DK, Star Fox and Metroid are all left with nothing

Add a different villain? There's more than enough options

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I'd cut him because this is a collaboration of all different nintendo franchises and i don't think it's fair that Mario gets 2 new, unique reps while Zelda, DK, Star Fox and Metroid are all left with nothing

Add a different villain? There's more than enough options

...That's actually ****ing dumb. Your problem is that the most profitable video game franchise gets 2 characters. And you want to cut the villain, who is currently the only villain added in the game instead of Rosalina, one of many female newcomers added to the game.