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Ganondorf Sword Mode for ProjectM

uCooL

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dude this is awesome, i just watched the video for v0.2 and this is probably the smoothest PSA I've ever seen that doesn't have the PMBR behind it. Almost all the PSAs on the brawl vault are gross and clunky, but this is nice and smooth. And its only a beta release, keep it up!!
 

\Apples

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There was a 2-hit jab slash in Twilight Princess, I might consider that, what do you think?
Any chance you could show me what this looks like? I don't recall seeing this in Twilight Princess, it's been forever.

The F-Smash and D-Smash took some effort to make so I'm quite glad you like it. The vid didn't show it well but you can delay the 2nd strike of these 2 smashes similar to Link's F-Smash but the window is a bit smaller.
Perfect.

I shouldn't upload this version at this time because the PSA codes are still a mess! I made a lot of errors and wasted memory address with trial and errors. I would hope to get the alpha sorted out and copy the working codes into a clean beta first before releasing it again. But if you don't mind possible crashes, bugs and glitches I can upload the current version for testing.
Hey that's fine man, can't rush perfection. I'm a patient man. I can still provide feedback in the meantime and analyze his kit and make suggestions. I'm a programmer as well, so I can definitely communicate with you on that level as far as working out the logic and math for anything I may suggest.

I was thinking the same thing too. It will be for Special-D and would work the same as Marth/Ike and will also use his parry animation similar to Twilight Princess. Big difference is that your counter attack is optional and you can choose to either Attack after parrying or Jump afterwards which if timed correctly can improve edge recovery. And you can only perform one Jump parry per air time. This is only still ideas, I'm not even sure if I can code this as of yet.
I hear ya. This is something we'll have to address as soon as possible. Whether or not his special moves will be modified or not. I believe special moves should be what really set characters apart from one another at a fundamental level, but if not, they at least need to be carefully considered with the rest of his moveset's design before too long.

The idea is cool, but I think simple is best. We shouldn't stray too far from Falcondorf's design, and I think the idea for that counter attack is introducing mechanics which add more complexity than they do depth. Depth != complexity, and we certainly prefer the former as it's more elegant. Especially when you consider that, as you said, it may even be difficult to code. I just think it's straying too far from what Ganondorf is as far as Smash goes.

Also, realize that replacing the Wizard's Foot would SEVERELY handicap his recovery. This probably isn't such a great thing because he's already easy to edgeguard as it is. So nerfing his recovery like that to make his on-stage game better or something may not be entirely effective. But I could see that going both ways, honestly. I just think that his recovery should stay more or less the same. At that point, I think it'd be overhauling Ganon so much that there really are two completely different characters in one, rather than something that's more akin to two versions of the same character where each version fights in a different stance.

You sir, have great analysis bringing up issues I didn't even intend or realized yet and have greatly improve the progress of this project. Thank you.
Well thank you. I'm glad my work is appreciated and I'd love to work with you on this project. Thanks for taking this up!
 

Jade_Rock55

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This looks so great can't wait for this!

Also good luck balancing this with his non sword moveset AND the rest of the P:M cast,but it doesn't need to be perfect in version 1.
 

Ashingda

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Messages
206
dude this is awesome, i just watched the video for v0.2 and this is probably the smoothest PSA I've ever seen that doesn't have the PMBR behind it. Almost all the PSAs on the brawl vault are gross and clunky, but this is nice and smooth. And its only a beta release, keep it up!!
Thanks, I had experience using blender so that helped out greatly. Most of the sword animations are altered and a few of them were created from scratch. By the way this is still alpha version, it still has too many missing basic functions.

I had just learned that we are able add extra animations. This is great news because now I'm not restricted with the animation count, but will still be restricted by the size of the file. Once it reach pass 4.3 MB it will crash the game, and I'm currently sitting at about 4.1 MB.

Any chance you could show me what this looks like? I don't recall seeing this in Twilight Princess, it's been forever.
Sure thing, this vid captured a few of them. Look at 25:05 there are two in a row.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REwJCFcBF64

Also good luck balancing this with his non sword moveset AND the rest of the P:M cast,but it doesn't need to be perfect in version 1.
Yes sir, it's what play testers are for right?

The beta version should be done this weekend. I look forward to having anyone help test it.
 

robosteven

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I WILL GLADLY PLAYTEST THIS

Based on the video alone though, his moves look...too good. I don't mind this considering it's not in the official P:M release or anything, but were it to be it would need to have some clear flaw. That range is incredible, especially on the uair. holy **** that uair looks so nice. And the smashes are coming along spectacularly. ...but for balancing reasons, either the sword moves need to be made much slower or much weaker.

As stated previously though, all I have to base this off of are the demonstration vids on youtube.

I repeat.

I will gladly playtest this. Aside from being "unbalanced" looking, it looks amazing. Keep it up. :>
 

Granfalloon

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Nov 27, 2013
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Had to register just to comment on this, it looks glorious and befitting of Ganon. I really, really wish the PMBR takes it into consideration.
 

LeeYawshee

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Please allow me to playtest as well, it would be more than an honor to do so, especially since I'm a huge Zelda fan. I also want to see if I can help with balancing the power of Swordorf and Captaindorf.

If not I'll still be more then glad to give my take on this moveset.

One last thing, those animations are ridiculously smooth, great job.
 

Nabeel10

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Nov 28, 2013
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I would as well love to playtest this and offer any input to make this smoother and better! The Project M staff simply MUST include this in the next update!!
 

| Kailex |

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I think ill just wait for the final version, im a bad playtester and my judgements and suggestions are bad; watching the vids will be enough
 

Banjodorf

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I have no other way to say this:

I love you.

Yeah that's about it. I'd love to give this a real playtest the first chance you have to allow it, and definitely am game trying to get the PMBR's attention to see what they think of this.

Ganon's playstyles have always been something to debate somewhere, and this is honestly the best way to strike a happy medium.
 

segwayspeedracer

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I think the unintentional best part is the new U taunt where G-dorf gestures a spank to his ass. I can have fun with this.
 

Ashingda

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Nov 2, 2013
Messages
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Update: Beta is out!

All features should be working. Please feel free to test and give feedbacks. This is still far from perfect and has lots of room for improvements and fixes, but I'm getting really burned out. A little over 3 weeks ago I picked up Brawl hacking/modding for the first time and have been going at it almost non-stop aside from sleep and work. I'm still open to suggestions, if you think things can be improved in a different lets hear it.

Don't get too excited, it's actually not that great.

v1.0 Beta
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSgwRWm-Wkw

Downloads:
https://www.mediafire.com/?vfx0a0gbff23dvn
 

squeakyboots13

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Upload it to Mediafire or some other file sharing website and post the link here. That's how BrawlVault functions anyway.
 

Jade_Rock55

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Great!

I will try to test a lot when I get home tonight.I like PM Gannondorf so this and that will be really fun.


Project M 3.0 Next Monday!
 

Steelia

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Home.
Love to try it now, but with 3.0 around the corner been trying to stay away from PM material so to get comfortable to any changes it'll introduce. Whenever you're able to port this over to 3.0, definitely going to try it out & mention any changes that may be needed balance-wise. :)
 

Banjodorf

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Yes! I'll try this as soon as I get back from getting dinner tonight. So ****in pumped!
 

LeeYawshee

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Only one complaint, it's great but I wish some of the moves were actually based of moves from Zelda, maybe his down special can be Link's counter? I mean why don't we Sakurai spice this moveset up?

Also his up smash should this those near him as well, it wouldn't makes sense for it to not hit it. Just make it slower like Ike's up smash.

Anyways I'm gonna do more testing tonight and I'll edit this or make a new post depending on what happens to this thread.
 

Ashingda

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Only one complaint, it's great but I wish some of the moves were actually based of moves from Zelda, maybe his down special can be Link's counter? I mean why don't we Sakurai spice this moveset up?
I know what you mean, but there are just too many to fill and the moves from the Zelda games are limited. How to put in for moves that didn't exist in the original? Well most of those are placed for basic function and are subjected to change.

By the way, the new Down-B was indeed taken from Zelda game, that charging strike that gives the player a chance action. But we can't completely recreate that.
 

LeeYawshee

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I know what you mean, but there are just too many to fill and the moves from the Zelda games are limited. How to put in for moves that didn't exist in the original? Well most of those are placed for basic function and are subjected to change.

By the way, the new Down-B was indeed taken from Zelda game, that charging strike that gives the player a chance action. But we can't completely recreate that.
Yep, I noticed after using it for a while. But let's talk about a bit about his moveset and what could be changed.

His down special is fun but will be easily countered against anyone who uses a projectile. Captaindorf had his down special for approaching if I remember correctly and without it, he might as well be spammed by Luigi's fireballs or something. My suggestion is giving it light armor to deal with some of the projectiles and still give Sworddorf a form of approach. Other than that, nothing else needs to be changed. Maybe tone down the damage and hitstun so this move doesn't become overpowered.

His aerials are nice and smooth but (and it could just be me) they're kind of hard to connect.

To please Zelda fans, you should give him the ability to shoot and energy of light, this way you can keep the down special the same and just give him a projectile instead to change it up.

That's all I have to say. This is fun but to me it actually feels a bit underpowered, I can do more testing but my word isn't exactly something to go by since I'm in between casual and competitive. Ganondorf is a rushdown character so you should keep it that way for both movesets.

Ifyoudon'tknowrushdowncharacterisonewhobeatstheirenemiesdownasfastastheycan.

Anyways, I hope to see more.
 

Kally Wally

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To please Zelda fans, you should give him the ability to shoot and energy of light, this way you can keep the down special the same and just give him a projectile instead to change it up.
It's not possible to add a projectile to a character who doesn't already have one.

Ganondorf is a rushdown character so you should keep it that way for both movesets.
Ganondorf is nowhere near rushdown. He's as slow as molasses going uphill in January with crutches, and relies on hard punishes to get anything done. Since we're using traditional fighting game terms, he's really more of a grappler.
 

LeeYawshee

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It's not possible to add a projectile to a character who doesn't already have one.
Gotcha, thanks for clearing that up.



Ganondorf is nowhere near rushdown. He's as slow as molasses going uphill in January with crutches, and relies on hard punishes to get anything done. Since we're using traditional fighting game terms, he's really more of a grappler.[/quote]

He's not as slow in Project M, in fact he has some quick attacks including a lot of his aerials, a decent dash attack, and relatively good up tilt.

HOWEVER. Despite his extra speed, you're right once more. He is a grappler. His up tilt works great after his side special. His grabs and down air connect relatively well. My bad.
 

Ashingda

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It's not possible to add a projectile to a character who doesn't already have one.
I don't think it's impossible, they said the same thing about not having a Sword Trail and I was able to get it working. I will do some experiments...
 

squeakyboots13

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Just tried this out and I have to say that you've done a pretty good job so far. My only complaint at the moment is that the new Down-B move is weird and very awkward to use.

I couldn't tell you if he's properly balanced or not, but he doesn't feel any more or less powerful to me, so that's good. Animations look great for what's being called an early beta. I'm presume that you'll be updating this once 3.0 comes out, right?
 

Shadow Huan

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I have tested it a bit, very impressed.

I'm on my phone so i won't be able to give a lengthy critique :(

I will say that "Chance" animation and attack power is perfect, even if it looks a little wonky in the air. I support the idea if light armor on the dash though

I would be fine sacrificing aerial kill power for better killing smashes, but the smash attacks themselves are in need of adjustment. Which I will get into later when I can get to an actual computer

There are more animation hiccups, and the new dair and bair can't be Lcancelled, but these are polish that can come later

Overall very impressive. I will be back Monday evening (tuesday morning at the latest) with some in depth stuff and suggestions.
 

LeeYawshee

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I have tested it a bit, very impressed.

I'm on my phone so i won't be able to give a lengthy critique :(

I will say that "Chance" animation and attack power is perfect, even if it looks a little wonky in the air. I support the idea if light armor on the dash though

I would be fine sacrificing aerial kill power for better killing smashes, but the smash attacks themselves are in need of adjustment. Which I will get into later when I can get to an actual computer

There are more animation hiccups, and the new dair and bair can't be Lcancelled, but these are polish that can come later

Overall very impressive. I will be back Monday evening (tuesday morning at the latest) with some in depth stuff and suggestions.
The smashes KO actually really well, you just need to press A after using them for a second and much more potent hit.


Another edit, I'm messing around with Swordorf to see if he has any other weaknesses and other big strengths. I'll be back in an hour!
 

Banjodorf

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Alright. I put about 3 solid hours into Swordorf testing last night, and as a Ganon main I think I'm prepared to give a solid first critique.

Alright. Lets put it lightly:

THIS IS AMAZING WORK!

Like seriously, I had so much fun. First off, the fact that you can switch in and out of Fist -> Sword is nice, and approachable for people that are used to Brawlingdorf. He essentially feels the same, just with more reach, different options for spiking, and damage lessened or gained in some places.

Pros: (Apart from the above)

-Dat reach. (The dair and bair had my jaw on the floor, although sometimes I found myself switching back to the fist stance for some tstomp action).

-The down-b has insane damage on the tip. Kills at 50%+ wat?

-I've found it alot easier to edgeguard, on account of the reach, and the properties of the dair in general.

-The sword moveset combos with flame choke much better in my opinion than the brawling set ever did. Jab has such a wide arc and so does the dsmash you almost always hit it.

-It's alot of fun, and gives Ganon a whole new dimension, without stepping all over the glory of Brawlingdorf.

Cons:

-The down-b is strong, but SUPER MEGA gimpable. Falco lasers, PK Freeze, razor leaf and Link in general make it nearly useless as an approach option. It's so cool though. I think if possible, it definitely NEEDS super armor to be a viable choice. It has enough lag on it that it shouldn't be overly broken.

-The up-b feels weird, and I can't really tell what it's supposed to be doing. It's an arcing slash now, but sometimes I grabbed them like with the other stance, and couldn't tell how or why that happened even with multiple attempts.

-I'll miss you, utaunt laugh.

-The Fsmash. I like the electric fist, and it's duration is longer than expected. (At one point a Pikachu CPU QA'd into it a second after I used it, and still got hit. However, the second attack feels awkward when used, and comes out alot slower than I expected sometimes. Overall I just switched to dsmash to use it, because I could almost always get the second hit to land. Not so with Fsmash. Not sure if its intentional, but just felt weird.

Honestly LOVING this set. It's the sword Ganon I've always wanted, and it feels so surreal to actually have it!

Edit: A couple more things: Adding to what others have said, dair and bair can't be l-cancelled. The f-air definitely can, but that animation is a little off. (Is he bashing them with the hilt? I didn't quite get it.)

The dair works nicely though, apart from lack of l-cancel. I've found that since it can poke through stages like battlefield, it's got at gimping DK, Ike, etc. if they're below the edge, because tip = very excellent spike.

Edit 2: Ganon Boogaloo: Well, after a couple hours of more testing, I realized that in addition to the lack of l-cancels, there's another problem; Ganon's up-b in his Brawlingdorf mode doesn't do anything anymore aside from jump. I'm fairly certain it's because it's beta, but I just wanted to bring it to your attention.
 

UberAndrew

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Would custom character textures and models work with this? For example I have a Black Knight (Fire Emblem) and Demise alternate costume for Ganondorf, would they work with this?
 

Ashingda

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Nov 2, 2013
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I couldn't tell you if he's properly balanced or not, but he doesn't feel any more or less powerful to me, so that's good. Animations look great for what's being called an early beta. I'm presume that you'll be updating this once 3.0 comes out, right?
Sure will. It should be a simple copy input, apparently copy and paste corrupts the file.

Shadow Huan
The L-cancel should be an easy fix. I forgot to include those variable flags at the beginning and after the animation.

Banjodorf
I see, Up-B and Neutral-B(air) isn't working correctly. The fist in F-Smash is suppose to have increased shield damage, I have not added that yet but will later.
UberAndrew
I believe they should work. As long as it's not one of the files this mod changed.

Thank you everyone, I appreciate the feedbacks.
 

robosteven

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...also dashdancing is kinda weird on Swordendorf.

...and if you finished the fight WITH the sword out, you start the game with the sword. Any way to make it so you always start with swordless Ganon?

Aside from that and everything that has already been posted, it's super fun to play with. Keep it up!
 

LeeYawshee

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Alright so what I got to say is...

His up smash is really hard to hit and moves him forward slightly making it a bad move for a character with the rushdown playstyle that Swordorf has and making it more about placement.
His forward aerial is his weakest aerial because the hitbox is suprisingly thin. Not a real problem but it does mess with the playstyle of Swordorf which is rushdown, not placement like Marth.
Side Smash 2 and Down Smash 2 share the same animation. Not a real problem but kind of bothersome.
Can't you make his side tilt so you can aim it upward or downward? With that you could give him a new up tilt. If not that's cool too. The up tilt is really strong.
Neutral B is really hard to hit which isn't too bad seeing as it's so strong.

Final final verdict:

His grab game is just as good as his sword-less counterpart. His aerial game is beautiful and great to look at and play as. However, if an opponent has some kind of projectile, Swordorf will easily fall against them unless it's Fox's projectile. Fast characters are still a problem but not as much as a problem since he has some quick attacks of his own. However these quick attacks aren't exactly KO moves. Even so without these super reliable kill moves that Captaindorf has, he still can KO at low percentages, you just need to work with what he has. As stated before, his biggest weakness is projectiles, he needs some form of approach. Even if that down special had some kind of armor, it still wouldn't help much UNLESS it was cancelable. Even though my verdict isn't professional (cause I don't play in a super competitive level) I suggest nerfing the power and giving it a bit more utility or just changing the whole move overall. It's a move that some would consider "awesome but impractical". I personally think he's either balanced or borderline underpowered.
 

\Apples

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Ganondorf has never been a rushdown character dude, stop saying that. He has no consistent means to safely approach nor apply pressure. He is a character who relies on impeccable spacing and hard reads to gain momentum in the neutral game, but when he gets in he can combo just about anyone to death if his reaction time to their DI and teching is on point. He has a strong edgeguarding game as well and he can land the kills with just about any move, the trouble is landing that move. He really is most like a grappler because he spends more time taking damage and finding openings than he does actually taking care of business, but once he finds that opening he can really stay in there. He CAN safely approach via perfect wavelands and keeping his spacing super tight, he CAN apply pressure through that same avenue (these are things that all characters can do) but it's very different from the kind of pressure a true rushdown character can apply. His most important strength is his grab game, period.

TL;DR: Grabs != rushdown.

I just downloaded this I'mma toy around for a bit.
 

LeeYawshee

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Ganondorf has never been a rushdown character dude, stop saying that. He has no consistent means to safely approach nor apply pressure. He is a character who relies on impeccable spacing and hard reads to gain momentum in the neutral game, but when he gets in he can combo just about anyone to death if his reaction time to their DI and teching is on point. He has a strong edgeguarding game as well and he can land the kills with just about any move, the trouble is landing that move. He really is most like a grappler because he spends more time taking damage and finding openings than he does actually taking care of business, but once he finds that opening he can really stay in there. He CAN safely approach via perfect wavelands and keeping his spacing super tight, he CAN apply pressure through that same avenue (these are things that all characters can do) but it's very different from the kind of pressure a true rushdown character can apply. His most important strength is his grab game, period.

TL;DR: Grabs != rushdown.

I just downloaded this I'mma toy around for a bit.
I said that Ganondorf was a rushdown character once and then I corrected my mistakes after somebody else corrected me, in fact I didn't even say that Captaindorf was a rushdown, I said Swordorf was. Big difference. To me he feels like a rushdown character because of how I played him. I even said that my statement wasn't professional because of my competitive placement. I apologize if I was wrong for playing a character a tad differently.
 

Ashingda

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Side Smash 2 and Down Smash 2 share the same animation. Not a real problem but kind of bothersome.
They are indeed the exact same animation/move, if it's too bothersome I can make one of them a full animation with a different hit.

Can't you make his side tilt so you can aim it upward or downward? With that you could give him a new up tilt.
There is a limited amount of animation/moves slot we can add into the PSA and I've already max it out.

I suggest nerfing the power and giving it a bit more utility or just changing the whole move overall
I'm assuming this is about Down-B, I had wanted to add an option to also jump or block during the running part. Also during the Down-B(Air) pressing "A" will start the attack in the air. What do you think about this? Or is light armor still a better option?
 
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