Ganon META Thread : discussions and suggestions go here !

[Scuba Steve]

While I do not main Ganon, I have been playing him lately, to practice punishing mistakes(I main Peach and Samus). I have begun to fall in love with his techchase game and Ftilt. I find myself landing a lot of SHFFL Dairs on my local competition, and was wondering what the optimal followups are? Right now, I do Utilt when I can, and Fair/Uair when I can't.

Stomps are great, but I would be cautious about throwing them out too much. They're Ganon's slowest aerial and is the most punishable out of all them. As for followups on it, I personally love stomp -> side-b -> whatever. Here's an example.

 

[GeZ]

That was pretty sex, Scuba.

 

[Scuba Steve]

Many thanks. I've seen shwickid do it a few times as well. You can get some really good followups on it depending on the character. In this one shwick follows up with a jab -> wizard foot. I would recommend going for stomp -> up-tilt on fast fallers at low-mid percent, though. Ganon just don't have as good of followups on them after flame choke as he does with floatier characters.

 

[bandi]

Stomps are great, but I would be cautious about throwing them out too much. They're Ganon's slowest aerial and is the most punishable out of all them. As for followups on it, I personally love stomp -> side-b -> whatever. Here's an example.

Didn't have the chance to watch the whole video and it's probably the wrong forum, but when you edge guarded lucas you heavily relied on Dair. You should've gone offstage while he downBs back, jump in front of him=>feint+fastfall=>rising Uair or run off the stage and Fair/Uair. Another option would be for you to edge hog and wait for his tether and punish his face with a aerial flame choke - if he rolls behind you => dSmash / if he rolls in front of you, send him to nemesis with that purple foot of yours.Nevertheless, there's some slick stuff there, liked your Uair=>Nair=>Fair combo at the end!

 

[Spralwers]

I generally tend to prefer SH rising auto canceled dairs over SHFF dairs. SHFF dairs give you the most time to follow up if you know you'll land the hit, but the SH rising AC dairs are more flexibile. You can actually cross up people with it, and if someone decides to interrupt you with an aerial, you have a pretty decent chance of actually chest stomping them before their aerial comes out.

As for follow ups... If I'll go for aerial side B if: the positioning is right for a ledge spike, they bounce high enough for a good follow up, or if I'm feeling very confident in my tech chasing game. If I just want quick guaranteed damage and they're not too high, I go for another dair. If they're at a low enough percent and not too floaty, I may actually opt to grab and do some chain grabbing into fair/bair/uair. Altho, if their overall trajectory after the dair is perfect, I would most prefer usmash, since if both hits land, that's an easy 41-42%.

 

[Scuba Steve]

Didn't have the chance to watch the whole video and it's probably the wrong forum, but when you edge guarded lucas you heavily relied on Dair. You should've gone offstage while he downBs back, jump in front of him=>feint+fastfall=>rising Uair or run off the stage and Fair/Uair. Another option would be for you to edge hog and wait for his tether and punish his face with a aerial flame choke - if he rolls behind you => dSmash / if he rolls in front of you, send him to nemesis with that purple foot of yours.Nevertheless, there's some slick stuff there, liked your Uair=>Nair=>Fair combo at the end!

lol I just posted it to show what the dair to side-b looked like, but I appreciate the pointers.

 

[CORY]

it's very character dependent, but that sounds about right. at super low percents, you could probably manage dair-grab on some characters, too. alternately, go ballsy and land a hard read shffl dair into dair and lol that they're near kill percent now.

 

[Doctor Pink]

Is everyone here in Texas? How come I didn't see any Ganons at WHOBO this year? Oh, and should I Nair more with Ganon?

 

[Scuba Steve]

Is everyone here in Texas? How come I didn't see any Ganons at WHOBO this year? Oh, and should I Nair more with Ganon?

I'm from Texas, but I have just been playing at the weeklies in Austin, so you wouldn't have seen me at WHOBO. I plan on going to my first big boy tournament and travelling to San Antonio for Rains of Castamere, though.

Yeah probably, auto-cancelled nairs are good. The auto-cancels let you throw out tilts and jabs out really quickly afterwards. Arty does it a ton.
Here's a set of his from the Big House 3: http://www.twitch.tv/umsmash/b/469578532
The set starts at about 1:54:00

 

[bandi]

lol I just posted it to show what the dair to side-b looked like, but I appreciate the pointers.

Excuse me for being rude - that was my fiery balkanese mentality pointing a gun at you

 

[CORY]

Is everyone here in Texas? How come I didn't see any Ganons at WHOBO this year? Oh, and should I Nair more with Ganon?

i'm in free-fw, but i have a bad time at making tourneys ;x i also pretty much just attend stuff in the area.

 

[moonfolk]

So it's a tad difficult to scour the boards on my phone, so I apologize ahead of time if I'm reiterating someone else's idea.

The only issue I really see with Ganondorf is the total uselessness of the wizard punch—that's a pretty common opinion—but I think the solution is much simpler than "give ganon a new move." I think we're stuck looking at ganon as a slow, heavy-hitting CF. This is ideed true, but I don't think he should be boxed in because of it.

I propose that Ganondorf's wizard punch be a FASTER, WEAKER version of the falcon punch, instead of the super slow, super strong version we currently have. If the move had a new property such as projectile reflection or if it acted as a launcher (like many other characters' more normal Utilts) then we'd have something interesting and perhaps even more flavorful (if your on the fluff side of the argument). Maybe it propels you forward quicker and can be used like Mario's cape for some horizontal recovery. Whatever.

The biggest benefit of this change is that it will merely add a new tool for ganon without totally changing up his play style. I for one love his current iteration, and find him to be really, really devestating in the hands of a skilled player. I don't even think this change is absolutely necessary, but it would indeed be interesting, easy, and well-received.

 

[bandi]

I tried to work with DownB as an approach. Only tried it in freeplay play on PS2 and BF against Lucas/Ike/Diddy so far.
Waveland onto platform near the edge, and DownB to opposite platform. Good thing is, you don't even need to space it well, because using DownB, while traversing midair, makes Ganon's endlag of said attack shorter, hence you're able to move faster. So either it's Ledge-canceled automatically, or you just gotta move an inch or two to run off the ledge an attack with a Bair.

 

[Scuba Steve]

Yeah, I like wizkicks on FoD's weird platform heights whenever I get taken there

 

[Coastward]

man i wish this board was more active.

been ****ing around with AC nair and DACUS, really leveled up my gameplay.

 

[Scuba Steve]

Not enough people be using them autocancelled nairs. They're so goooooooooood.

 

[Coastward]

ever since i've watched arty play, it's like i discovered god.

 

[teluoborg]

Tbh I feel like ACNair is good, but not that good.

It's unpunishable, but the hitbox is kinda weak compared to Fair and Bair and the first hit doesn't connect if the opponent isn't tall like Marth.

So yeah, I use it sometimes to bait people who don't know any better but when I wanna play safe I'm better off with spaced Ftilts (which is Ganon's best move if you ask me).

 

[CORY]

@ teluoborg it really is.

arty nairs are great to get into people's head, if you hit their shield. otherwise, it's still easy to punish a whiff with some characters, even if you intended to whiff and were going to punish their attempted punish : /

 

[Coastward]

alright so i got 4th at my PM monthly. coulda got third but i choked.

any of you know how to edgeguard ike? i tried going for dair but that didnt work out too well.

 

[BladeOFLucas]

alright so i got 4th at my PM monthly. coulda got third but i choked.

any of you know how to edgeguard ike? i tried going for dair but that didnt work out too well.

B-air is a good way to pop him out of his aether, same with f-air. Dair is typically only good if you can predict exactly what his recovery will be, and then only if he hasn't initiated aether by the time you get there to dair.

 

[CORY]

i like bair and uair. it's easy to get up underneath a nonsweetspotted aether with both of those and force the recovery from a (hopefully) more favorable position for you. you could also try and be crazy with some super well spaced ftilts, but i think if you can hit ike out of aether with ftilt, you wouldn't really need to try too hard anyway...

 

[teluoborg]

You need to abuse the ledge invincibility frames when he uses his aether.
Grab the ledge before he starts the move, let the sword pass through you then hit him when he goes up. It's a lot easier said than done because of how he can vary his timing, but when it works it works hard.

 

[Spralwers]

Dairs can work, I can definitely verify after hitting Ally a ton with those. But like mentioned above, you need to already be above Ike when it happens. You have to position yourself so you hit with basically only the feet, and so that you're above and slightly behind him (to avoid the most vertical part of the hitbox). At worst you'll trade, but just like spiking Snake's up B with Marth's dair, it's worth it. Go into practice mode and see Ike's up b in slow motion, the hitbox is definitely not as big as it seems and there are obvious weaknesses that Ganon can take advantage of. It'll build your intuition for edge guarding his up B considerably.

Also, the best way to demoralize an Ike player is to jab them out of quick dash.

 

[Comprehend13]

DLA hinted that the PMBR is adding something to ganon to help him deal with projectiles in the windycitysmash ganon character lesson video

 

[DLA]

It was 1 am, and all I meant is that the PMBR knows that Ganon is one of the weakest characters in the game against projectiles, and that I'm pushing for us to address that. I'm still a new member to the PMBR so naturally I don't hold a lot of sway. I do have a few ideas, but don't get your hopes very high that they will like them or want to implement them lol.

 

[teluoborg]

It's alright dude, it's already good to know that there's a hardcore Ganon player in the PMBR and that you read the forums.

 

[CORY]

incoming:
ganon wins on character select

gotcha, boss! thanks for the good news!

 

[Bazkip]

So I heard through the grapevine that Ganon will be getting some improvements to movement, however "not in the way you would expect".
When I asked if it would be something along the lines of how Ike's sideB gives him greater movement, they answered saying "sort of, but not really", and then further went on to say that it wouldn't actually get him from point A to B any faster.

So pretty vague, the only thing that comes to mind is maybe that float idea? Who knows. I guess we'll just have to see. I'm pretty excited either way.

 

[teluoborg]

That's some pretty cryptic grapevine you got there.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Think about it for a second. What would allow you to act faster without buffing the speed of your actual movement?

 

[BladeOFLucas]

Think about it for a second. What would allow you to act faster without buffing the speed of your actual movement?

Dare I say it, do they mean a .........gulp.......teleport? One that isn't faster than his other movement options

 

[Bazkip]

Think about it for a second. What would allow you to act faster without buffing the speed of your actual movement?

Less startup and/or endlag on moves?

 

[_Ganondorf_]

This is Ashinda's Triforce Ganon mod for PM; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeM6DsrjDtY&feature=youtu.be
If you fast forward to 2:21, you'll see his magic mode's down B. Now what if that becomes his Neutral B?

In action (I use the mod) it provides great follow ups in the air and also provides an approach from the bottom, it also allows a nice way to close in the distance on projectile users. The aerial version acts like just another aerial but when hits the ground provides a nice area knock back effect while also providing Ganon another nice approach from the top.

In summery this move provides;

1) new approach tools (top or bottom)
2) new ways to follow up in the air
3) a way to work around projectiles
4) (*only when executing from the ground) gives Ganon nice aerial mobility

Not only this move is canon (Oot) but it would actually fit Ganon's current play style and would enhance it nicely and would provide useful tools while not being op.
Also this would allow the use of Warlock Punch animation (and darkness effect) to be used for his F-smash getting 2 unique moves in 1.

What do you guys think?

(on a side note: If it was up to me, I would actually replace his Up-smash and down smash with his magic mode counter parts. Up-smash works exactly the same as his current one while being unique and fitting to his character, and the down smash is just plain better. but that's a whole different realm of discussion)

***I posted this in a different thread so some of your guys probably already seen this, but like I said that down B give him great mobility in the air and allows to get around the stage easier without increasing any speeds. Just by having that move***

 

[Bazkip]

I know what Ganon needs

vBrawl Snake's utilt hitbox

On upsmash

 

[Spralwers]

But on what trajectory should that hitbox send his opponent?

 

[teluoborg]

It should be a semi spike obviously.

@ _Ganondorf_ : it could be an interesting change but I fear it might make Ganon op.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Sounds cool, I just imagine the up-smash with that flame choke/wiz foot purple effect mixed with the jab/up-tilt lightning effect having a giant evil animation with that hitbox

 

[Kati]

Stomps are great, but I would be cautious about throwing them out too much. They're Ganon's slowest aerial and is the most punishable out of all them. As for followups on it, I personally love stomp -> side-b -> whatever. Here's an example.

Is anyone else bothered by this video? I finally get the concern over recovery seeing Ganon landing soooo many hits around 100% yet not ko'ing.

 

[DahremRuhar]

I know what Ganon needs

vBrawl Snake's utilt hitbox

(really big picture of that thing that no one wants to remember)

On upsmash

This times infinity. BasedPMBR pls. Also, it should cancel Falco's lasers.

Ganon should have a shine too.