Ganon META Thread : discussions and suggestions go here !

[teluoborg]

No, he meant if you hold A or down during the warlock punch animation then it'll do a shockwave punch.

While those two suggestions might look cool on paper (imagine hover canceled Fairs and Dair muahahaha), hey are impratical : the shockwave means the pmbr will have to put in a good lot of work for a new animation that won't solve the problem of WP and won't bring anything new to Ganon (as Fortress said Ganon alreasy has a shockwave move).
The problem with hover is that it changes totally Ganon's actual recovery strategy that is jump renewal through wizfoot. If you give him hover you have to take away SJR, which is already a very good option in itself.

 

[Yanoss1313]

hey, i have an idea to make Neutral B good. Make it also teleport to directly behind the other player just before the hit-box comes out, and make it go through shield... and...uhh.. oh oh, make it have super armour and make it so you can save up the charge!, and make it hit three times as hard.... yeah, i think that'll about do it. =D

 

[Darkmask]

No, he meant if you hold A or down during the warlock punch animation then it'll do a shockwave punch.

While those two suggestions might look cool on paper (imagine hover canceled Fairs and Dair muahahaha), hey are impratical : the shockwave means the pmbr will have to put in a good lot of work for a new animation that won't solve the problem of WP and won't bring anything new to Ganon (as Fortress said Ganon alreasy has a shockwave move).
The problem with hover is that it changes totally Ganon's actual recovery strategy that is jump renewal through wizfoot. If you give him hover you have to take away SJR, which is already a very good option in itself.

At least you understood what I meant, yeah what I meant for Seismic Wizard Punch was not to replace his down special, but if you press A and then down it aims the attack at the floor for an explosive shockwave attack, kinda like Ike's charged special, like when you press the opposite direction when you start the Wizard Punch animation you get the Reverse Wizard Punch.

And I just though Hover would give players another option in playing Ganondorf, it would be like Mewtwo's Hover, I barely use it, and I know some players don't use it either, but others live by it and use it to extend certain aspects of the character. I was just hoping that as well could help cause something a split with Ganondorf players and give him more variety.

 

[teluoborg]

I don't think Ganon needs a better recovery, and hovering is something that floaty characters like. It's way too different from Ganon's usual playstyle to really fit his moveset..

 

[Darkmask]

I disagree, as I could see someone who plays a Hover Ganondorf could master the aerial choke slam. But then again I only play Ganondorf casually, not dedicated like I am sure some of you do.

 

[Scuba Steve]

Hover would be so awkward. Can you imagine what Ganon's aerials would look like with him just hovering around?

 

[Darkmask]

Heck, I'd be all for giving Warlock Punch extra utility be giving it a Seismic and a Skyward version.

As I mentioned , Seismic Warlock Punch is pressing down during the punching animation, striking the earth and causing an explosive shockwave of purple energy that does less damage and knockback, but strikes the ground in front of and behind Ganondorf.

Skyward Warlock Punch would be obviously a punch upwards, that causes a spike of purple evil energy straight up, situational for sure, but it would give Warlock Punch a four ways utility, forward, reverse, ground, and sky.

 

[Scuba Steve]

To be honest, these changes wouldn't really even help Ganondorf because they do nothing to address his key weaknesses. Those being his inability to deal with projectiles, his poor options against shield pressure, easily edgeguardable recovery, lack of safe approach options, and generally poor mobility. If any changes to warlock punch aren't addressing any of these issues, then they're probably not going to make a huge impact on his game.

 

[Darkmask]

I always thought that Ganondorf should have a move that allows him to bat away projectiles, with an ground an aerial version, the ground version he bats them away straight up, if he does it in the air, he spikes the projectile instead. Would be an interesting twist on the old 'reflect projectile' move since it would help Ganondorf with his projectile weakness, but also introduce something new, in the form of an upwards and spiking projectile reflector. Could you imagine, spiking one of Samus's plasma shots straight down or launching one of those slow moving Aura Bombs straight up into the air?

 

[Kati]

It sounded good until the last sentence. Sounds silly swatting away energy based projectiles.

Someone finally brought up hover? yayyyy. DJC uair with a heavy character..? yesz. Having a little option to help recover a bit? yesz. It hasn't overshadowed m2's aerial game, so I doubt that with the proper stats it would overshadow Ganon's game.

 

[Darkmask]

It sounded good until the last sentence. Sounds silly swatting away energy based projectiles.

But Ganondorf can already swat away energy based projectiles in-canon, in OoT he slams his own energy blasts back at Link, the famous energy blast tennis match, which is a bit of where this idea comes from.

TV Tropes: Tennis Boss, LoZ fans even call it "Ganonball"! (heh)

 

[Darkmask]

Double post: sorry!

Here's an idea, again based slightly on a move from OoT and may help mess up enemies and draw in floaty, rrunaway enemies, a Black Hole attack. Ganondorf charges up a ball of black energy above his head, that grows stronger and stronger in power, it basically acts like a black hole attack, waves of energy drawing in nearby enemies, and as the ball of dark power grows, it's vacuum properties affect enemies farther and father away. Either Ganondorf can end the move prematurely and the dark energy explodes, it draws an enemy into the dark sphere and it explodes, or it becomes fully charges and explodes on it's own, like the FE specials. It could really mess with keepaway enemies, not to mention mess up recoveries, especially dangerous with the Earthbounders and Teleporters, who if they are messed up during their recovery can find themselves helpless and falling off the stage.

 

[Spralwers]

Trying to draw as much of the Ganon suggestion discussion here as possible.

He needs a better grab and better OoS options and he'll easily make top 10 with that range and side b tech chases.

But his main problems are to do with movement :v
If he was going to break into top 10, or even out of the lower middle tier, they'd have to first address his travelling flow.

You know, I wonder what would happen if Ganon's run/dash speed got buffed to DKs level or maybe slightly slower. Ganon actually keeps just about if not all his momentum on his jump. I'm gonna modify Ganon's run speed, play some friendlies, and see what happens. And I will record the results. Granted, neither my friends nor I are good enough at the game for the videos to truly mean anything about how Ganon's meta will be, but it'd be interesting to at least see and gather ideas from I think.

 

[GeZ]

That's a good idea.

And to the guy posting ideas to give Ganon a hover and alterations to Warlock Punch, really? Really truly? Are you serious? Cause this **** is too silly.

 

[Scuba Steve]

No, you don't understand. Reflecting projectiles upward and downward would be soooooooo beneficial to Ganon. You don't even know.

 

[GeZ]

Edit: Looks like I'm ********. GG.

 

[teluoborg]

DUDE

That's a joke, come on.

 

[GeZ]

God damnit. I wasn't expecting it as there's 5, paragraph filled posts talking about that ****.
Bleh. Edit'ing first post then.

 

[teluoborg]

It's ok, it's hard to tell what is irony and what isn't on the internet.

 

[Mr.Random]

He needs to do what he did in Ocarina of time. Play tennis with projectiles.

 

[ShadowGanon]

I had another idea for Ganon's neutral-b last night. It would be similar to Lucario's down-b or R.O.B.'s aerial side-b. Pretty much, you would hit neutral-b and you would dash through a dark portal that would appear in front of you (the portal that you see Ganon come out of when the match starts) and you would exit another dark portal some distance in front of him at full running speed. That would be the grounded version. The aerial version would very much the same other than the fact that you would be doing it in the air and you would come out of the portal at max air speed (the speed you would go if you were to run and jump). It would go just about as far as R.O.B.'s/Lucario's aerial side-b/down-b.

From what I've heard, people think he needs 1. More mobility, 2. A way to deal with projectiles, and 3. A buff to his recovery? This would give all of that.

Feel free to tear this idea to pieces and find things wrong with it.

 

[teluoborg]

Well that could be an interesting idea.
What makes it interesting in my eyes is that there are a lot of variables to tune in order to decide how powerful it could be, like the duration, lenght, frame data, invincibility, cooldown, etc.

 

[KeyOfTruth]

I have a solution that fixes Ganon's inability to deal with stalling and stalemates due to his lack of safe approaches. Change his neutral B to a projectile absorption move. I know what your thinking, there's already tons of those we don't need more clone moves. Well what if in the event that he absorbed a projectile he gains a one time use projectile to throw back? Given the right priority this could blast through other projectiles but he only gains its use upon absorbing other projectiles. This would prevent all the forced approaching Ganon often faces against projectile users but at the same time he would not be able to spam a projectile at will. This would still mean he retains his good old playing style while making the opponent think twice about throwing out a projectile. It's purely based on his opponents actions which adds to his defensive play style of punishment.

 

[Scuba Steve]

I have a solution that fixes Ganon's inability to deal with stalling and stalemates due to his lack of safe approaches. Change his neutral B to a projectile absorption move. I know what your thinking, there's already tons of those we don't need more clone moves. Well what if in the event that he absorbed a projectile he gains a one time use projectile to throw back? Given the right priority this could blast through other projectiles but he only gains its use upon absorbing other projectiles. This would prevent all the forced approaching Ganon often faces against projectile users but at the same time he would not be able to spam a projectile at will. This would still mean he retains his good old playing style while making the opponent think twice about throwing out a projectile. It's purely based on his opponents actions which adds to his defensive play style of punishment.

If I could steal Link's boomerang and he couldn't get it back until I throw it, that would be soooooooooo sweet. Idk about balance and stuff but it would be awesome.

 

[TimeSmash]

Wouldn't it be nice if his jab could just punch away or eat projectiles.

 

[KeyOfTruth]

If I could steal Link's boomerang and he couldn't get it back until I throw it, that would be soooooooooo sweet. Idk about balance and stuff but it would be awesome.

No I think your misinterpreting me. To make it more clear he absorbs projectiles, no healing no reflecting, just negated and gains a one time use projectile of his own. He does not steal the projectile and disable it from further use, that would be broken and not make sense in most cases.
I'm thinking the projectile should out prioritize all other projectiles (other than maybe chargeable ones) but only travel a relatively short distance.

 

[TimeSmash]

No I think your misinterpreting me. To make it more clear he absorbs projectiles, no healing no reflecting, just negated and gains a one time use projectile of his own. He does not steal the projectile and disable it from further use, that would be broken and not make sense in most cases.
I'm thinking the projectile should out prioritize all other projectiles (other than maybe chargeable ones) but only travel a relatively short distance.

So, like an original projectile, something Zelda-derived like (but not necessarily) that shadow ball thing he throws in Wind Waker??

 

[Scuba Steve]

No I think your misinterpreting me. To make it more clear he absorbs projectiles, no healing no reflecting, just negated and gains a one time use projectile of his own. He does not steal the projectile and disable it from further use, that would be broken and not make sense in most cases.
I'm thinking the projectile should out prioritize all other projectiles (other than maybe chargeable ones) but only travel a relatively short distance.

I got what you meant. I was just sporting a half-chub over thinking how awesome it would be to not have to deal with the boomerang in the Link match-up.

 

[TimeSmash]

I got what you meant. I was just sporting a half-chub over thinking how awesome it would be to not have to deal with the boomerang in the Link match-up.

As someone who plays a lot of Peach I second this.

 

[KeyOfTruth]

T

So, like an original projectile, something Zelda-derived like (but not necessarily) that shadow ball thing he throws in Wind Waker??

The animation is clearly open for ideas and when it comes down to it is totally up to project M, but that sounds like a great idea.

 

[TimeSmash]

T


The animation is clearly open for ideas and when it comes down to it is totally up to project M, but that sounds like a great idea.

So what speed were you thinking? Wolf's laser speed or something like Lucario's Super Aura Blast (the big one)'s speed?

 

[KeyOfTruth]

It should be fast enough to feel like a threat and discourage jumping or dodge rolling, and forceful enough to maybe even push them back a bit when shielded. Ganon should not be able to act during this at all though, it shouldn't linger out in front of him and safe guard him like Wolf. I'm also thinking this should have enough power to kill off stage opponents trying to recover from edge guarding. Of course the big limit is that it's a one time use and cannot be recharged until you absorb another projectile. Which would mean this move is irrelevant to characters with no projectile.

 

[TimeSmash]

It should be fast enough to feel like a threat and discourage jumping or dodge rolling, and forceful enough to maybe even push them back a bit when shielded. Ganon should not be able to act during this at all though, it shouldn't linger out in front of him and safe guard him like Wolf. I'm also thinking this should have enough power to kill off stage opponents trying to recover from edge guarding. Of course the big limit is that it's a one time use and cannot be recharged until you absorb another projectile. Which would mean this move is irrelevant to characters with no projectile.

So what does the move consist of when you're just using it in general? Would it have a use against projectile-less characters??

Edit: It could have a windbox or something, just a thought

 

[KeyOfTruth]

So what does the move consist of when you're just using it in general? Would it have a use against projectile-less characters??

Edit: It could have a windbox or something, just a thought

Perhaps it could have a minuscule hitbox like his hurt box also becomes a hitbox and like shocks someone who charges at him. Anti grab?

 

[PsionicSabreur]

If I were to ask for a projectile on Ganon (and knew it was possible that I get it), I'd ask for a storable charge, high damage projectile (combo, stage control, or KO, I'm not sure which would be more helpful, but high damage is crucial for walling out weaker projectiles), moderate speed, that can only be used at full charge to prevent most sorts of centralization in his neutral game, unless he needs to use it when getting camped. In exchange it would ideally be a little quicker to charge than charge shot or other comparable moves.
You might also get some nice benefits from using charge-cancel turnarounds in the air, such as better access to fair/bair/uair for their respective spacing situations, or better options to set up offstage aerials, like the front/back hits of uair, allowing for some more flexibility in his air game.
Charging could even have a low-startup hitbox (with better coverage than the likes of Mewtwo) for use in dealing with certain aerial pressure situations, maybe even OoS or for some neat combos or something, I dunno.
Just a thought.

 

[KeyOfTruth]

If I were to ask for a projectile on Ganon (and knew it was possible that I get it), I'd ask for a storable charge, high damage projectile (combo, stage control, or KO, I'm not sure which would be more helpful, but high damage is crucial for walling out weaker projectiles), moderate speed, that can only be used at full charge to prevent most sorts of centralization in his neutral game, unless he needs to use it when getting camped. In exchange it would ideally be a little quicker to charge than charge shot or other comparable moves.
You might also get some nice benefits from using charge-cancel turnarounds in the air, such as better access to fair/bair/uair for their respective spacing situations, or better options to set up offstage aerials, like the front/back hit of uair, allowing for some more flexibility in his air game.
Charging could even have a low-startup hitbox (with better coverage than the likes of Mewtwo) for use in dealing with certain aerial pressure situations, maybe even OoS or for some neat combos or something, I dunno.
Just a thought.

I feel like this can become too powerful quickly and hard to balance, not to mention we don't want to change his play style. Limiting his projectiles use on the opponents actions is smart because its more of a "you can't spam kill me with projectiles and get away with it." It's more of a deterrent than a tool.

 

[PsionicSabreur]

Hence the "only usable when completely charged" thing. Getting a full charge because your opponent was playing keep away isn't really different from catching a projectile, anyways. Besides, plenty of characters keep Ganon out just by being faster and dashdance camping, platform camping etc. Why give him a tool to combat camping if you'll only stop projectile campers and not the other kinds?

 

[KeyOfTruth]

Hence the "only usable when completely charged" thing. Getting a full charge because your opponent was playing keep away isn't really different from catching a projectile, anyways. Besides, plenty of characters keep Ganon out just by being faster and platform camping. Why give him a tool to combat camping if you'll only stop projectile campers and not the other kinds?

For balancing purposes. Even if he can only use it when its completely charged, that still means he can charge it up after taking a stock or while they're off stage. It would become more universal and it would change his play style the more he begins to rely on a projectile.

Also by making it the opponents choice to take a risk and give him a high power projectile to retaliate with, it creates this sense of fear where the opponent would become more reluctant with using their projectiles. This especially works nice with the fact that the opponent knows you only have one chance to hit with this said projectile and it just creates an atmosphere where their always on guard. This indirectly evens the playing field for Ganon without giving him any game changing buff.

 

[TimeSmash]

Maybe there could be some mechanic when you have the charged anti-projectile (KeyofTruth's idea, can't think of a name to come up with haha. Maybe something like Gerudo Bullet?), your moves increase a bit in terms of knockback or percentage. Something not CRAZY OP but just a little benefit of catching an opponent's projectile

Perhaps it could have a minuscule hitbox like his hurt box also becomes a hitbox and like shocks someone who charges at him. Anti grab?

Tell me what kind of animation you would be thinking of him doing. Then I can get a more clear idea as to what you're after

 

[KeyOfTruth]

To be honest I got the idea from a character in a series called Blazblue and this is what it looked like http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb...e/images/6/61/BBCP_(Azrael_Growler_Field).png
So perhaps something similar but Ganon fitting.

Just so you see what the projectile looked like as well: http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb.../images/d/d6/BBCP_(Azrael_Phalanx_Cannon).png