Does Sakurai know what he's doing with character balance?

[Khao]

You don't think he's making millions?

Game design isn't as well-paid as most people would think.

The real money goes to the company.

Creators don't really own what they create in this industry.

 

[Senario]

Yeah, no, is the clear dominant brawl character., while being the best is very much debated.

Yeah, People who think Fox is the undisputed best are silly. If you played with INSANE amounts of techskill then maybe but very few people/nobody yet reach the Tool Assisted Levels of play that are required for him to beat everybody. You can get pretty good with other characters like Sheik or Marth and be just as good. Jiggs as well.

Basically making Fox the best character hands down in the game is so hard nobody has done it yet even after 13 years of play =/

 

[<π]

Um... I wasn't going to post here.

But when people start slandering my boy Mr. Sakurai... I've gotta step in. I'm not a game designer, most of us aren't but... I want to point out a few things.

You do not need to be a master to balance. Lets make a real world example. With my current skill set I could not create an electronic scale. I COULD however use it to figure out the balance between two different things.

Or how about this. Sports coaches have a very deep understanding of the games they commentate, they can pick apart every flaw and inconsistency in their players in spite of the fact that most of them can't play at top levels themselves.

You don't need unreasonably deeps set of skills to read and understand measurable out comes. If M2K can beat Sakurai that doesn't make M2K a better game designer than Sakurai. Just like me beating my coach doesn't automatically mean I'm a better coach than he is.
Sakurai, after years of developing one of gaming most iconic gaming characters and several of the worlds best selling video games, I would imagine has become decent at making enjoyable games! I would imagine he has also gained a knack for designing things so that they are, intuitive, fit thematically, feel meaningful and cool, but not to the point of over powering. Now is he going to do this perfectly? No, he is human, and even with a cast of 2 it is very complex balancing act. But if like @Amazing Ampharos did you take a look at the numbers you see he hasn't any gotten worse.

One other thing... Melee was made with the goal of trying to bring in competitive players. (That's what Nintendo was trying to do with the GameCube. Watch the melee commercials and you'll see clearly who the target audience was) Even more buttons to push and actions to perform! Faster steeper learning curve! And those aren't bad things in fact their great!

But with Brawl the goal wasn't to exclude competitive players. (Why exclude anyone from a game if you want it to sell? That doesn't make sense.) It was to draw in more casual players! (And again that was Nintendo's aim at the time, look at the Wii's marketing strategy and brawl commercials) And it did just that, brawl sold almost twice as many copies as melee, and I think that is because it made the game more approachable.
Getting casual players hands on our games is what we as a competitive community SHOULD want. This elitist idea of "Only WE should be anywhere near decent" is counter intuitive to BUILDING a player base. Players should be able to slowly wade into the depth of a game. Not be shoved into it, and there is a lot of depth with smash. I think that was one of the goals with Brawl. Making a game "pro-casual" doesn't make it "anti-competitive". (I mean look at who wins brawl tournaments. It is a very consistent group; and then tell me is a casual game... actually don't do that.)

And that's not to say, mind you, that brawl was a balancing perfection, clearly not. But numbers would tell us that it is a step up for sure. I can't imagine that this game will have everyone on level ground. Or some magical 50 string long one counters the other system, but I can't imagine with all the diversity and the mistakes of the past this this game is going to be significantly worse the others.

 

[Rich Homie Quan]

It's clear that Sakurai is trying to strike a balance between competitive and casual play. I think it works - so far, nobody seems broken and characters seem to be places on a steady curve of viability. I trust that all the characters we haven't played follow this trend.

I think the only character that seems clearly better than most everyone else is sheik, given her return to Melee playstyle, but that's it. We still need to see how that pans out though.

 

[Hydde]

Are you trying to defend him afetrhe called the competitive players "maniacs"?.

He despises the way competitive play his game, on top of that he is a terrible balancer. Anyways, a game like smash cannot be balanced with one single patch. It needs to be patched a lot of times to get to the point of good balance. WHy?, because the best beta testers are the players, and when a game is played 24/7 by millions of peeps during months, a lot of information is gathered.

Anyways, all smash games have been a balancing disaster an this one will not be an exception.

 

[topspin1617]

Perfect balance in a large cast of characters is impossible unless you have years to work on it post release. Making everyone viable in a competitive enviroment, on the other hand, is a pretty feasible goal for release. That's what I'm hoping for (I know it isn't gonna be reached cause Zelda, but that's normal for a smash game).

I wouldn't give up so quickly on Zelda... I know that people's impressions haven't been positive in general, but I think some changes to mechanics (reduced SDI) and some of her moves seeming to execute a BIT faster could have a much bigger impact than we think. Plus I think her Phantom won't be completely useless, but that it'll take testing to see what situations it'll be helpful in.

Does anyone else think that the developers' attempts to "balance" Olimar have been unsuccessful? The fact that Olimar can now only keep three Pikmin out at a time means nothing since he can pluck them in a specific order instead of randomly. Olimar mains are just gonna camp, pluck Pikmin, and throw all of their non-purples away. The character has been buffed, not balanced.

How exactly do they not understand this? It's like they have no grasp of the competitive mindset whatsoever...

I think you need a broader view of the game. I think Olimar's changes can definitely been seen, collectively, as a small buff. On the other hand, the increased speed of the game should make camping with Olimar and going through a process like you describe much more difficult. Kind of the way the mechanic changes from Melee to Brawl screwed a lot of characters that weren't actually really changed much, I think Smash 4 mechanics may work somewhat against Olimar, and that a few buffs to him personally may actually be needed to keep him being a good character (i.e., I choose to look at it as a sign that balancing is being taken MUCH more seriously and considered in much greater depth than the previous transition).

 

[CrimsonYoshi]

Yes, he knows. People only have tiers because they found ways to exploit the game in unnatural ways and win. I can beat anyone with Lucas, an e-tier according to the "rules". This is supposed to be impossible. The higher someone is on a tier, the easier they are to master or use unorthodox methods to win with. True skill and good playability comes with practice. If people didn't see things in black and white, there would be no tiers. Lucas is my example.

 

[Senario]

Yes, he knows. People only have tiers because they found ways to exploit the game in unnatural ways and win. I can beat anyone with Lucas, an e-tier according to the "rules". This is supposed to be impossible. The higher someone is on a tier, the easier they are to master or use unorthodox methods to win with. True skill and good playability comes with practice. If people didn't see things in black and white, there would be no tiers. Lucas is my example.

Tiers are not a measure of whether or not you can beat somebody with a character but a measure of if you played the game perfectly which character has the best chance of winning based on matchups. It has nothing to do with using unorthodox tactics. There will always be tiers because there will always be characters who can do more than others. Nobody would say fox uses unorthodox methods to win or that he is easy to learn.

 

[pickle962]

Are you trying to defend him afetrhe called the competitive players "maniacs"?.

He despises the way competitive play his game, on top of that he is a terrible balancer. Anyways, a game like smash cannot be balanced with one single patch. It needs to be patched a lot of times to get to the point of good balance. WHy?, because the best beta testers are the players, and when a game is played 24/7 by millions of peeps during months, a lot of information is gathered.

Anyways, all smash games have been a balancing disaster an this one will not be an exception.

The butthurt is strong with this one!

Tiers are not a measure of whether or not you can beat somebody with a character but a measure of if you played the game perfectly which character has the best chance of winning based on matchups. It has nothing to do with using unorthodox tactics. There will always be tiers because there will always be characters who can do more than others. Nobody would say fox uses unorthodox methods to win or that he is easy to learn.

Tiers are useless when you have someone who's considered crap or a "joke" character ****** the so called "best characters" i.e when Mango first came into the competitive scene, JigglyPuff wasn't given the time of day because the "experts" (bull****) thought she was horrendous. After dethroning Mew2King who at the time it happened was considered untouchable by many, the Melee Back Room collectively pooed their pants. Recently up and coming player Amsa is making a name for himself in Melee with Yoshi who's considered to be somewhere in the middle IIRC. Point is, tier lists are not gospel and shouldn't be treated as well...ANYTHING regarding how to play since all it takes is a beast player to absolutely prove the "experts" wrong on a certain character.

 

[Senario]

The butthurt is strong with this one!



Tiers are useless when you have someone who's considered crap or a "joke" character ****** the so called "best characters" i.e when Mango first came into the competitive scene, JigglyPuff wasn't given the time of day because the "experts" (bull****) thought she was horrendous. After dethroning Mew2King who at the time it happened was considered untouchable by many, the Melee Back Room collectively pooed their pants. Recently up and coming player Amsa is making a name for himself in Melee with Yoshi who's considered to be somewhere in the middle IIRC. Point is, tier lists are not gospel and shouldn't be treated as well...ANYTHING regarding how to play since all it takes is a beast player to absolutely prove the "experts" wrong on a certain character.

Problem is that you are ignoring that the experts are perfectly fine being proven wrong on what characters are good or bad. That is how tier lists are developed. You see what can be done with characters at the top level and you adjust accordingly. First impressions may be important as sheik fox and falco were considered strong since the start.

This doesnt mean that the experts dont know what they are talking about. It means that some of their first impressions were based off initial learning of characters rather than mastery.

Tiers are by far not useless.

 

[PCHU]

Aren't tiers based on tournament results?

 

[Rich Homie Quan]

Tiers >>>>

If the spread isn't as wide as in brawl, I'm happy. That's all I want, really. I didn't even mind Brawl that much after Unity banned MK.

 

[josh bones]

Yes, he knows. People only have tiers because they found ways to exploit the game in unnatural ways and win. I can beat anyone with Lucas, an e-tier according to the "rules". This is supposed to be impossible. The higher someone is on a tier, the easier they are to master or use unorthodox methods to win with. True skill and good playability comes with practice. If people didn't see things in black and white, there would be no tiers. Lucas is my example.

Tiers are based off results, lucas hasn't won, so he isn't high tier, that simple

Tiers are useless when you have someone who's considered crap or a "joke" character ****** the so called "best characters" i.e when Mango first came into the competitive scene, JigglyPuff wasn't given the time of day because the "experts" (bull****) thought she was horrendous. After dethroning Mew2King who at the time it happened was considered untouchable by many, the Melee Back Room collectively pooed their pants. Recently up and coming player Amsa is making a name for himself in Melee with Yoshi who's considered to be somewhere in the middle IIRC. Point is, tier lists are not gospel and shouldn't be treated as well...ANYTHING regarding how to play since all it takes is a beast player to absolutely prove the "experts" wrong on a certain character.

You are forgetting. TIERS ARE BASED ON RESULTS. Jigglypuff had no results before mango, so she was considered bad, stop acting like we throw darts to deside tiers, when and get top 8 at a national, then I might see what you mean.

 

[Second Power]

I wouldn't give up so quickly on Zelda... I know that people's impressions haven't been positive in general, but I think some changes to mechanics (reduced SDI) and some of her moves seeming to execute a BIT faster could have a much bigger impact than we think. Plus I think her Phantom won't be completely useless, but that it'll take testing to see what situations it'll be helpful in.

I'm not optimistic, because simple tweaks won't be enough. They can't fix her main issue (neither being able to approach or camp) like that. But this isn't the thread for that.

 

[LancerStaff]

Yeah, no, is the clear dominant brawl character., while being the best is very much debated.

Exactly. Best things in KIU is more comparable to , while the bulk of them are while the rest ranges from to , roughly. Most of those are the legitimate joke weapons, so have at you.

 

[topspin1617]

I'm not optimistic, because simple tweaks won't be enough. They can't fix her main issue (neither being able to approach or camp) like that. But this isn't the thread for that.

I guess not, I just thought it was somewhat relevant to the overall balance debate. I think it's hard to really say much about balance at this point, so I think we should keep an open mind about the cast. I know Zelda has her intrinsic issues and most likely will never be top-tier, but a do have a feeling balance is going in the right direction in this game, so she may end up closer to the rest of the cast than we think.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

Yeah, People who think Fox is the undisputed best are silly. If you played with INSANE amounts of techskill then maybe but very few people/nobody yet reach the Tool Assisted Levels of play that are required for him to beat everybody. You can get pretty good with other characters like Sheik or Marth and be just as good. Jiggs as well.

Basically making Fox the best character hands down in the game is so hard nobody has done it yet even after 13 years of play =/

Just the fact his potential is way higher than the other characters is enough. His tournament presence % makes all other characters look rare in comparison, even more so than meta knight when you actually look at the numbers.

 

[pizzapie7]

One could link A big picture of Fox all the same mostly in regards to Melee.

Not even close.

 

[topspin1617]

Arguing whether or not Melee Fox was as dominant as Brawl Meta-Knight is pointless.

Each game only had a small number of competitively viable characters. Fox may not singlehandly beat EVERY character in Melee, but I'd hardly say that makes Melee more balanced overall.

 

[DevaAshera]

I'm only going to say this, with how often tier lists change and how character people thought were bad can suddenly be seen as good in a later tier list, doesn't this help to indicate how difficult it truly is to balance a game? They only have a little while to try and balance a game each time they make a change, they don't have years and years like people who create tier lists have.

Balancing is Difficult..no game can be perfectly balanced unless every character has the exact same stats, moves, and properties.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

I'm only going to say this, with how often tier lists change and how character people thought were bad can suddenly be seen as good in a later tier list, doesn't this help to indicate how difficult it truly is to balance a game? They only have a little while to try and balance a game each time they make a change, they don't have years and years like people who create tier lists have.

Balancing is Difficult..no game can be perfectly balanced unless every character has the exact same stats, moves, and properties.

Even if all characters are the same, that STILL doesn't automatically create balance.

I think Sakurai is doing the best he can and it definitely shows.

 

[infomon]

Even if all characters are the same, that STILL doesn't automatically create balance.

huh?

 

[Deleted member 245254]

huh?

You then have to balance the move set (that all players utilize).

For example you can't have a move set that would make it so making one mistake would lead to death (a'la Dive Kick).

In a game like Smash you get punished but it needs to be reasonable giving you a chance to recover, because without comebacks the game loses a lot of it's excitement factor.

 

[Zink Imp]

You then have to balance the move set (that all players utilize).

For example you can't have a move set that would make it so making one mistake would lead to death (a'la Dive Kick).

In a game like Smash you get punished but it needs to be reasonable giving you a chance to recover, because without comebacks the game loses a lot of it's excitement factor.

Have you ever created a game before?

 

[infomon]

OK, I think I get what you're saying. We're running into mere terminology issues at this point. I would call a game with 5 identical characters that all have a one-hit KO a balanced game, just a stupid one s'all good.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

Have you ever created a game before?

How about you link me your resume and then I'll link you mine.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

http://smashboards.com/threads/mario-kart-8-dlc-coming-worldwide-august-27th.364032/

Looks like Smash 4 will more likely be able to be patched.

 

[<π]

I highly doubt smash four will have patches for a number of reasons.

1. patches cost money to make and once the game is out well... we aren't doing monthly fees to support a live balance staff.
2. Patches change the game and force people to relearn it. So while I don't think "Patch random hack" is out of the question I don't think we will ever see regular game play patches.
3. Smash games are deep enough that even now we are still finding new things, new counters and metas. In melee people are finding out now that camping is king! (gasp)

I doubt there will be huge chunks of DLC either for this game. Maybe new skins, new game modes, stages maybe (again I highly doubt it, stage "skins" though are a little more likely), but I highly doubt new characters will join the roster though DLC. I just think it would cost too much to produce for free, would have huge potential to imbalance the game, and would create a have and have not situation, and those are bad for fighting games.

When you have to pay extra to stay relevant in a game you already paid for... well that's no good.

 

[Aninymouse]

http://smashboards.com/threads/mario-kart-8-dlc-coming-worldwide-august-27th.364032/

Looks like Smash 4 will more likely be able to be patched.

Pokemon X & Y were patched twice. 3DS games can be patched as well.

When Pokemon ORAS comes out, X &Y will need patched again to add in all the new mega pokemon and the needed items, or else they will be incompatable with each other online. In past Pokemon games, new "forms" (akin to how mega pokemon work) just were often incompatable with older games. However, it was usually just one legendary. With ORAS, the new megas are the main selling point, so X & Y will likely be patched.

@ <π

 

[Lukingordex]

Yes, he knows. People only have tiers because they found ways to exploit the game in unnatural ways and win. I can beat anyone with Lucas, an e-tier according to the "rules". This is supposed to be impossible. The higher someone is on a tier, the easier they are to master or use unorthodox methods to win with. True skill and good playability comes with practice. If people didn't see things in black and white, there would be no tiers. Lucas is my example.

You can't say Lucas is a good character just because you can beat your friends with him, welcome to smashboards.

 

[DevaAshera]

Even if all characters are the same, that STILL doesn't automatically create balance.

I think Sakurai is doing the best he can and it definitely shows.

You completely missed what I meant..I meant more that every single character would completely identical..in other words, the only way for a Fighting Game to be Completely Balanced would be..

Perfect Balance is defined by characters having absolutely no advantage over the other..in other words the only way for a game to be perfectly balanced would be if every character was identical. Same moves, same stats, same hitbox, etc..no advantages, no disadvantages, no tiers.

What I was saying is that for a game to be Diverse and Perfectly Balanced is utterly impossible because there will always be some advantage or disadvantage a character has against another in some way, some match-up issues, no matter how hard someone tries.

Tiers are then decided by how many advantages a character has amongst the roster over disadvantages based on their match-ups. The fewer disadvantages, the higher the tier spot.


I do think Sakurai does a swell job, even with a few hiccups like MetaKnight in Brawl.

 

[<π]

Pokemon X & Y were patched twice. 3DS games can be patched as well.

When Pokemon ORAS comes out, X &Y will need patched again to add in all the new mega pokemon and the needed items, or else they will be incompatable with each other online. In past Pokemon games, new "forms" (akin to how mega pokemon work) just were often incompatable with older games. However, it was usually just one legendary. With ORAS, the new megas are the main selling point, so X & Y will likely be patched.

@ <π

That idea is a little different. They are already "being paid" to produce new content via ORAS' sales. And even still, that said, it doesn't guarantee a patch for the older games. Pokemon has always been successful with each new generation without having to give old games a way to stay relevant.

EDIT:
I also wanted to share this idea with you guys.

Extra credits is a great series if you want to get a better grasps on concepts modern game designers need to understand.

 

[Aninymouse]

That idea is a little different. They are already "being paid" to produce new content via ORAS' sales. And even still, that said, it doesn't guarantee a patch for the older games. Pokemon has always been successful with each new generation without having to give old games a way to stay relevant.

EDIT:
I also wanted to share this idea with you guys.

Extra credits is a great series if you want to get a better grasps on concepts modern game designers need to understand.

Nintendo offers free downloads of all kinds all the time. It's not unheard of.

Smash 4 can be patched, and it can be patched for free. I really don't see the problem here. The only question - the only one - is if patches will be needed, and if they are, will they be implimented? Sakurai has expressed receptiveness to the idea already. Nintendo is pretty dedicated to quality products. I really think this is not something to lose sleep over.

Now will they patch the game if people just want some bottom tier character buffed or some top tier character nerfed? That, I'm not sure on. But if there's a move that is very unbalanced, or a glitch of some kind, it will likely be dealt with, especially if it's really bad. Beyond these scenarios, I'm not sure what people want from patches, exactly. Do people want the entire roster to be tweaked, move by move, to achieve greater balance? That's not likely to happen, but it could happen. Do people want additional content, like costumes or characters? That's not likely to be free, but it could happen.

 

[LIQUID12A]

.

Extra credits is a great series if you want to get a better grasps on concepts modern game designers need to understand.

That's...brilliant. Shame Meta(game) Knight has no counters in Brawl.

Going from Imperfect Balance to Counter Play, I can imagine Sakurai taking a few more steps to avoid creating a second Meta Knight.

 

[LancerStaff]

Back in KIU again, counterplay is king. Even the best of the best can be completely shut down with the proper setup. I'm hoping Sakurai takes this route again for SSB4.

 

[CrimsonYoshi]

You can't say Lucas is a good character just because you can beat your friends with him, welcome to smashboards.

And I can beat professionals online and in games, i wouldn't make a fact with flimsy data.

 

[pizzapie7]

And I can beat professionals online and in games, i wouldn't make a fact with flimsy data.

Your unsubstantiated anecdotes are the definition flimsy data my man.

 

[Deleted member]

Hello Yello!!!