Does Sakurai know what he's doing with character balance?

[StarLight42]

I hope this thread does not become very controversial but I need to address an issue I spotted.

I'm sure plenty of you all remember, Sakurai said Samus was "the best character" in the E3 build of Smash Wii U, I had a hard time believing that, considering how awful Samus was in Brawl and the little difference I had seen between games. However, I was convinced, until I saw this;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXjjWSZP3lU&list=UU5WNBHwgluAwWJE5QV-5_TA (I'm not sure if this site has YouTube embed but it seems not)

If you listen to HugS in that interview, he states he was going to use Samus in the tournament but decided against it due to Samus (as a character) having a lot of issues, and stated he had no idea what Sakurai was talking about with Samus being the best character in the build and that his experience was the complete opposite.

Now i'm not saying HugS is the best source of information or anything like that, but I can generally believe him with his consideration of character balance.

This scares me a bit, it basically just sticks out that, well... Sakurai doesn't know which characters are overpowered and which ones are not. I am not a competitive smasher, but I don't want to see Bowser vs. Bowser in every Smash 4 tournament, i'd like to see a ton of character variety.

One thing that reassured me though, the tournament commentators and players said that they had spoke constructive criticism to the Nintendo Reps on what to fix with the game, hopefully this makes Smash 4 even better than Melee!

So what do you guys think? Is Sakurai right and HugS wrong? I'm sure being a game designer helps a lot, but part of me also is thinking that Sakurai is determining which character is best with items on, hopefully that's not the case.

 

[Venks]

I've written quite a bit about balance in Smash 4. I've played the game much more than any of the Invitational players and have to say they knew very little going in. They didn't get the time that I did or SDCC players got with the game. They are the last people you should listen to.

Also if you think Bowser is a poor showcase of balance then I have to say I don't think very highly of your ability to discern character viability. I've also written about Bowser's performance in Smash 4. To think he's overpowered in incredibly silly.

 

[StarLight42]

I've written quite a bit about balance in Smash 4. I've played the game much more than any of the Invitational players and have to say they knew very little going in. They didn't get the time that I did or SDCC players got with the game. They are the last people you should listen to.

Also if you think Bowser is a poor showcase of balance then I have to say I don't think very highly of your ability to discern character viability. I've also written about Bowser's performance in Smash 4. To think he's overpowered in incredibly silly.

Really? So Samus was still okay without any missile cancel? & I can see you didn't mention any of Marth's nerfs.

Thanks for the info BTW I wasn't aware of your balancing page.

 

[LeeYawshee]

Really? So Samus was still okay without any missile cancel? & I can see you didn't mention any of Marth's nerfs.

Thanks for the info BTW I wasn't aware of your balancing page.

Her projectile game was buffed in a lot of areas and a lot of her moves are now kill moves.

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

Yes.

The game devs of their 3 year development game are much more reliable than even a top pro who's played the game only for hours.

Remember when Brawl came out and it took a month for everyone to realize MK was the best character and actually had amazing kill moves (which many thought was his weakpoint and why he's not a top character)?

So, Yes. It was also later found that Samus had a really good combo she can keep chaining (forget exactly, Zair, something, something, repeat), which they were probably aware of.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

Zero Suit Samus, a high tier character in Brawl, was buffed.

Diddy Kong, a top tier character in Brawl appears to be buffed (he has more reach in his melee attacks, at least).

Zelda, a low tier character in Melee and a bottom tier character in Brawl has been mostly nerfed.

What does that say to you?

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

Zero Suit Samus, a high tier character in Brawl, was buffed.

Diddy Kong, a top tier character in Brawl appears to be buffed (he has more reach in his melee attacks, at least).

Zelda, a low tier character in Melee and a bottom tier character in Brawl has been mostly nerfed.

What does that say to you?

It says that the community has a lot of closed-minded people (no offense).

SSB4 is a new game with new mechanics and different gameplay. Pinpointing a few aspects of each character that got buffed or nerfed isn't enough to say that the character's relative strength in the new game got increased or decreased. We haven't even gotten the game yet, but we are making conclusions? We are still learning more about melee and brawl every day. There is no way we can predict how the balance will be 1, 2, 3 years from now.

 

[Venks]

It says that the community has a lot of closed-minded people (no offense).

SSB4 is a new game with new mechanics and different gameplay. Pinpointing a few aspects of each character that got buffed or nerfed isn't enough to say that the character's relative strength in the new game got increased or decreased. We haven't even gotten the game yet, but we are making conclusions? We are still learning more about melee and brawl every day. There is no way we can predict how the balance will be 1, 2, 3 years from now.

Exactly this. Who knows. We could find out something new and it turns out Wii Fit Trainer is absurdly broken. Or maybe Robin or Captain Falcon who we haven't seen in game yet. Characters have changed, we haven't seen the final build, we haven't seen all the characters, and most importantly we haven't had enough time with the game.

Heck I completely wrote off Zelda, but a more observant guy posted this:


Din's Fire (Zelda's Side Special) has a really nice sweetspot on it that can cause some solid knockback even at only 60% (granted, she was fighting Fox). It looks like it'll be a KO move at higher percentages, probably around 100% and up.

Farore's Wind (Up Special) is not only faster on startup, but also ends faster when she reappears and the movement during the teleport is faster as well. It looks like a great movement tool, almost better than her dash and certainly a lot less predictable. Additionally, the fiery burst she creates on re-entry has KO power at higher percentages (120% and over vs. Fox) when it's fresh. Overall, this move comes out suddenly and unpredictably. Will she try to land directly on you? Will she appear behind you and go for a grab? How about appearing in front of you and going for a grab? Teleport, dash up and shield? Teleport away and go for Din's Fire?

The spike on Down Aerial looks a lot easier to land, and of course with spikes causing floor-bounces she can use this to combo into FAir or BAir if she can read the foe's DI.

FAir and BAir look to still be difficult to land, though not quite as difficult, but percentage-wise they look like they might be stronger than in Brawl.

DSmash looks solid now, even if FSmash and USmash are nerfed. At least you can't SDI out of FSmash and USmash anymore! DSmash still doesn't have the greatest knockback, but it's fast and looks to have a fair bit more horizontal range. I saw it KO Fox at 99% when staled, but that was near the walk-off of Coliseum.

Dash Attack appears to true combo into itself versus some characters at certain percentages. Specifically, fast-fallers like Fox are vulnerable to this at low percents.

FTilt has great KB for a tilt, comes out pretty quickly, and looks like it has some pretty good range to it.

I feel like the moves that didn't see much use in any gameplay vids are probably her best ones, excluding her new Down Special. Down Special charges far too slowly to be useful with Smash 4's speedier pace, given its limited power, speed, and range when not fully or at least near-fully charged. Also, it appears that the charge cannot be stored. The move gives Zelda a decent advantage if it connects while fully charged, however, as she can act out of it before the Phantom finishes attacking. Maybe if she can land a full-charge Phantom at close range, she'll be able to combo out of it with things like Up Special or a sweetspotted Side Special.

I haven't seen NAir get any use, though I've heard it traps better thanks to the SDI nerf. Most characters have 1 or 2 aerials with really low landing lag, so hopefully that's the case for Zelda's NAir.

Likewise, Nayru's Love (Neutral Special) hasn't seen much of any use. It would be nice to know how good its multi-hit properties are, and if it's safe on block due to shield push. That might make it a good approach option out of Up Special if it's safe on shield.

Her jumps are higher and faster than in Brawl, she has higher falling speed than in Brawl, and she looks to be faster in the air and on the ground. Granted, this is true of pretty much all characters in Smash 4, but that's something Zelda was always greatly hindered by in previous Smash titles, so hopefully it'll be less of an issue here.

 

[Neo Zero]

Something else to keep in mind is when Sakurai says a character is really strong, he's not JUST talking about 1v1 No items Final Destination, he's also keeping in mind FFA, Team Battles, with and without items. That's why things can be misinterpreted here, our natural thought is how good they are in our rulesets, where Sakurai has to account for every possible variable.

 

[KingBroly]

It's kinda obvious to tell what a character's strengths/weaknesses are in battle, even against CPU characters and on stages; even if it's just a general sense of balance.

Let's also keep in mind that the roster shown on 3DS was different from the Wii U one as well as being incomplete and not the final build. With a full roster comes a completely new metagame as well as a completely new balancing act.

 

[StarshipGroove]

Remember when Brawl came out and it took a month for everyone to realize MK was the best character and actually had amazing kill moves (which many thought was his weakpoint and why he's not a top character)?

No, what I remember was many posters on Gamefaqs and other sites claiming MK was broken simply by playing/watching the first demo for less than one day. Of course nobody believed them because everyone was drunk on hype.

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

No, what I remember was many posters on Gamefaqs and other sites claiming MK was broken simply by playing/watching the first demo for less than one day. Of course nobody believed them because everyone was drunk on hype.

I remember that too, but I feel after that there was a short period where a lot of people weren't sure anymore due to finding it hard to kill with him even though they could rack up a lot of easy damage.

 

[FalKoopa]

The thread title could use some changing perhaps...

We honestly can't be fully sure until the games come out. I'm inclined to think Sakurai has a preference for FFAs, so he might be referring to those when he said the "Samus is much stronger", so doesn't necessarily reflect on 1v1. And this is not including the possible changes between the E3 build and the final game.

 

[Renji64]

Time will tell given his track record so far it is clear he doesn't know how to balance characters.

 

[D-idara]

LOL@ these people saying Sakurai has no clue on how to balance when most of the characters on the demo were almost at the same level, the demo had more viable characters than Melee and Brawl combined, so please shut your mouths, people, and look at the evidence rather than your baseless hate for Sakurai.

 

[Smash G]

Too early to tell. We won't know for months after release. The Tier lists are very fluid (well, to an extent) for a good while as people discover new strategies about the characters.

 

[FalKoopa]

so please shut your mouths, people, and look at the evidence rather than your baseless hate for Sakurai.

I'd really appreciate it if you don't sound so inflammatory. Show me one post where someone is hating on Sakurai.

 

[ferioku]

Zero Suit Samus, a high tier character in Brawl, was buffed.

Diddy Kong, a top tier character in Brawl appears to be buffed (he has more reach in his melee attacks, at least).

Zelda, a low tier character in Melee and a bottom tier character in Brawl has been mostly nerfed.

What does that say to you?

The part that is in Bold proves that you have no idea what you're talking about LOL! When was Diddy Kong ever playable in the Demo???

 

[Ryuutakeshi]

As I understand it, the dude balanced Melee by himself. I'll let that speak for itself.

 

[guedes the brawler]

The problem is that Sakurai's big focus will not be 1vs1 no items, neutral stages.

he will do experiments on that, 'im sure (i am hoping he won't do the mistake of balancing ONLY for FD...); but it won't be the big focus.

However, i am not a zelda main by any means, but from what i heard, he really doesn't know what he is doing with her. like, Power was the only good aspect of that character, and she doesn't seem to have gotten significantly faster and such to make up for it (at least it kinda makes Tzelda more impossible, since there is little point to a weaker zelda this time)

that, and they don't balance around aTs. those will really bump or drown some characters for our metagame.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

The part that is in Bold proves that you have no idea what you're talking about LOL! When was Diddy Kong ever playable in the Demo???

Ah yes, because analysing footage and Sakurai's comments from Pic of the Day(s) means that I have no idea what I'm talking about. Oops, my mistake.

I never said he was in the demo and I made it (apparently not lol) obvious that I was referring to my impressions of the character, not actual evidence. I don't see anything wrong with interpretation and observation.

 

[D-idara]

I'd really appreciate it if you don't sound so inflammatory. Show me one post where someone is hating on Sakurai.

I'm talking about people deciding to ignore evidence that this game will be balanced just because 64, Melee and Brawl were unbalanced.

 

[Moldy Clay]

I don't know why Sakurai is singled out. He made it clear that they had like 12 people working on balancing, in addition to him. He's not balancing it himself.

And the demo's not much to go by. And not just because it's old, but because it was only a handful of the characters (and the 3DS version/Wii U version both had some different characters).

The Wii U demo & 3DS demo were from the same time, and Bowser wasn't dominating in that.

Also, you have to bear in mind that the balancing is based on normal gameplay. So all of the advanced techniques that you guys will discover from playing the game? They will almost definitely not have been taken into consideration.

 

[Raijinken]

Sakurai himself generally doesn't, at least judging by past games. But that (and balance patches) are part of why Nandai is in on the development.

 

[strawhatninja]

I'm going to give Sakurai the benefit of the doubt on this one. I know Meta Knight was OP but that was a Sakurai baby, and like everyone else said Bandai is helping with this one.

 

[Skyblade12]

During the Treehouse events, I believe it was repeated twice that Samus had received some buffs, and was "currently" the most powerful character in the roster.

That implied to me that balance was still ongoing, and that there likely were plenty of changes beyond the E3 demo.

 

[MajorMajora]

I just want to say, I'm pretty sure what Sakurai said was that Samus "had the most success in testing", not that she was "the best".

 

[Farorae]

Don't know why anyone is worried about the balance, smash is not worth losing sleep over. That being said the last 3 entries in the series were fairly unbalanced so I'm not holding my breath. And even if it unbalanced so what? It's not like we haven't been through an unbalanced game before...although being extremely unbalanced wouldn't be too good but again not worried about that.

 

[TheEggsAndBacon]

Do we even know what build of the game "Massive Hero Smack an Eye" was referring to? We all know that the E3 demo is rather dated, Samus may have just gotten better by the time the next few builds came around. (pleasemisslecancelingplease)

Or I could be wrong, and he specified the build, in that case pleasedon'thurtme

 

[ferioku]

Ah yes, because analysing footage and Sakurai's comments from Pic of the Day(s) means that I have no idea what I'm talking about. Oops, my mistake.

I never said he was in the demo and I made it (apparently not lol) obvious that I was referring to my impressions of the character, not actual evidence. I don't see anything wrong with interpretation and observation.

Interpretation is not exactly valid because the results can easily change.

 

[Big-Cat]

Like everyone else, it's too early to say for certain. No one got to put in a lot of time like the devs can to see what's possible in the game. So we've hardly scratched the surface of possibilities and to say this or that character is OP is definitely premature when we're around Day -61.

 

[Aguki90]

No, what I remember was many posters on Gamefaqs and other sites claiming MK was broken simply by playing/watching the first demo for less than one day. Of course nobody believed them because everyone was drunk on hype.

That means that some character are not gonna have be nerfed or even change.
Is you see Zero other matches, he does incredibily many broken moves with zero suit samus, Seriusly that special jump that she do, Is very unfair.

I think Zero Suit Samus is very broken character with all the sweetspot she can hit, But Samus with Armor had more killer moves but Im not gonna lie. Are missile, are freaking deadly is you touch them, I need to see more missile because they hit you and kill you.

But the game has is unbalanced stuff. I think is gonna be more balanced than Melee and Brawl to be even a better game.

 

[jwj442]

Do we even know what build of the game "Massive Hero Smack an Eye" was referring to? We all know that the E3 demo is rather dated, Samus may have just gotten better by the time the next few builds came around. (pleasemisslecancelingplease)

Or I could be wrong, and he specified the build, in that case pleasedon'thurtme

Yes, the demo build was at the very least a month old by the time of E3, probably more (some say January, but I don't think that's confirmed). He could have meant the current development build.

 

[pizzapie7]

I'm confident the balance won't be Brawl bad.

I also have no idea how to feel with Sakurai only having 12 people on his balancing team, that seems like a small number, but he's balanced by himself decently before.

 

[Vann Accessible]

Could it be Sakurai is talking about Samus being better in a more recent build?

Outdated build... nothing is certain.

 

[Phantom High]

Honestly I think Sakurai has an idea of balance, but it ultimately is up to how the physics work. He said it was the"middle of melee and brawl" but how much?
If a character cannot adapt to the physics, then they're most likely bad

 

[Big-Cat]

The whole "between Melee and Brawl" thing shouldn't be taken to heart.

 

[Morbi]

Sakurai has a team of twelve to balance the game. So the most accurate answer is: no. He does not know what the **** he is doing. End of story.

It will probably be more balanced than previous installments, but that difference is fairly negligible as is.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

As some people have already stated, Sakurai is balancing it not just for 1v1 competitive, but is more balancing it around FFA's with items, ect.

But he's got 12 other people working with him, so give them a little faith at least.

 

[ToothiestAura]

He knows what he's doing. It just doesn't necessarily reflect what the community wants.