Do Tiers Matter?

[mario15]

Recently I've noticed that there are polarizing views within the competitive community of Smash about tier lists. Most people stand by them, and will dedicate their time to playing a character simply because they're the top tier, others hate the idea of tiers and will play as characters, regardless of their ranking in the tier lists. While I do think that some characters have a higher advantage against others, I don't think that anyone should feel pressured to stay away from a character just because they're near the bottom of the tier list. I don't think tier lists can fully gauge the potential of a character, rather, they tell you which characters are most likely to win. Look, I'm no smash pro by any stretch of the imagination, but I've been playing these games since the first one came out in 1999, so I think I'm at least competent, and I find that I tend to do well with characters who are near the bottom, as well as those who are near the top. My mains in wii U are Mario, Little Mac, Link, Ganondorf, Ike, Marth, and Shulk. What do you guys think? How do you feel about tiers?

 

[Playerhater]

What's the fun of playing a game with the top tier characters? It's like playing games in easy mode. If you go by tier lists, at least pick characters that are at the bottom and embarrass other players with those. I do have to say that all your mains are lame.

 

[FallenHero]

Multiple threads about this topic have most likely already been made, but @ mario15 at a competitive level tiers are very important. The point of a tier list is to tell you how much potential a certain character has to be able to win in the meta.

While I do think that some characters have a higher advantage against others, I don't think that anyone should feel pressured to stay away from a character just because they're near the bottom of the tier list.

I agree with you, but a tier list does not necessarily tell you to drop your main in favor of a top tier. While it is possible to win a tournament with any character, don't expect to be winning any majors with Mii Swordfighter. I can't blame a player like ZeRo for using Sheik, because he wants to win tournaments.

I don't think tier lists can fully gauge the potential of a character, rather, they merely gauge the skill of the players who use them.

What? This doesn't even make sense, by this logic tier lists are telling people that use low tier characters that they are not very skilled at the game. Of course a tier list does not gauge the full potential of a character, they gauge the character's potential to do well at high level play.

 

[mario15]

Multiple threads about this topic have most likely already been made, but @ mario15 at a competitive level tiers are very important. The point of a tier list is to tell you how much potential a certain character has to be able to win in the meta.



I agree with you, but a tier list does not necessarily tell you to drop your main in favor of a top tier. While it is possible to win a tournament with any character, don't expect to be winning any majors with Mii Swordfighter. I can't blame a player like ZeRo for using Sheik, because he wants to win tournaments.



What? This doesn't even make sense, by this logic tier lists are telling people that use low tier characters that they are not very skilled at the game. Of course a tier list does not gauge the full potential of a character, they gauge the character's potential to do well at high level play.

Yeah, okay, maybe that was a dumb comment to make. I really shouldn't have brought other players' skill into question, so I admit, that was stupid on my part. Thanks for clearing that up, I just assumed that most people considered low tiers to be "unplayable", but now I see that the function of the list actually concurs with my point that some characters have advantages and disadvantages, but no one is unplayable.

 

[FallenHero]

Yeah, okay, maybe that was a dumb comment to make. I really shouldn't have brought other players' skill into question, so I admit, that was stupid on my part. Thanks for clearing that up, I just assumed that most people considered low tiers to be "unplayable", but now I see that the function of the list actually concurs with my point that some characters have advantages and disadvantages, but no one is unplayable.

I think the only people who would call low tiers "unplayable" are people who are not good enough to win without a high tier.

 

[mario15]

What's the fun of playing a game with the top tier characters? It's like playing games in easy mode. If you go by tier lists, at least pick characters that are at the bottom and embarrass other players with those. I do have to say that all your mains are lame.

To each his own, who are your mains?

 

[FallenHero]

To each his own, who are your mains?

Marth is my main and Captain Falcon is my secondary. I also play a little of Ryu, Falco, Link, and Roy, but I don't really care about being good with these 4 characters (except maybe Ryu). I think I might try to get good with Megaman too, but Marth and Falcon are probably going to always remain my two best characters.

Edit: lol I didn't realize you were talking to the other guy. My b

 

[mario15]

Marth is my main and Captain Falcon is my secondary. I also play a little of Ryu, Falco, Link, and Roy, but I don't really care about being good with these 4 characters (except maybe Ryu). I think I might try to get good with Megaman too, but Marth and Falcon are probably going to always remain my two best characters.

Edit: lol I didn't realize you were talking to the other guy. My b

That's okay, yours seem pretty cool, Ryu seems like a good character, and I imagine that the meta game guys probably ate him up as soon as he came out, what with his street fighter move set. I don't have any of the dlc characters, except for Mewtwo, who I got for free from Club Nintendo. Would you like to play me online sometime?

 

[FallenHero]

That's okay, yours seem pretty cool, Ryu seems like a good character, and I imagine that the meta game guys probably ate him up as soon as he came out, what with his street fighter move set. I don't have any of the dlc characters, except for Mewtwo, who I got for free from Club Nintendo. Would you like to play me online sometime?

I don't own a Wii U and I hate playing online anyways, so I can't play. I really just get my practice from training mode on 3DS and playing against my friends who have Wii Us.

 

[Kurri ★]

What's the fun of playing a game with the top tier characters? It's like playing games in easy mode. If you go by tier lists, at least pick characters that are at the bottom and embarrass other players with those. I do have to say that all your mains are lame.

What's the fun of playing a character who's options (or lack of) are destroyed by better characters?

 

[Reila]

What's the fun of playing a game with the top tier characters? It's like playing games in easy mode. If you go by tier lists, at least pick characters that are at the bottom and embarrass other players with those. I do have to say that all your mains are lame.

What's the fun of playing a character who's options (or lack of) are destroyed by better characters?

What's the fun of playing a character you don't like/have a personal attachment to? It doesn't matter if they are top, mid or low tier. Play the character you liek.

Edit: I think for online play tiers matter a lot less than for offline/local tournament play.

 

[Wintropy]

Tier lists determine the potential of a character in a competitive context. They're based on aggregate data comprised of innate character viability, tournament results, top-level representation and matchup spreads.

For example, Sheik is top-tier because her options invalidate most other characters'. She can control the neutral game with her needles, she has great d-throw followups with f-air and Bouncing Fish, a good recovery that can kill at high percents and can combo just about every character in the game with relative ease. She doesn't have any losing matchups, so no character has an advantage against her at top-level.

By contrast, a character is lower on the tier list if they don't have the options to counter a higher-tier character. Zelda is low-tier because she doesn't have good options to fight most other characters of a higher tier than her when played by a player at an equal skill level. In other words, at top-level, with the same essential skillset, the player who plays Sheik is at an advantage over the player who plays Zelda, so the Zelda has to work harder to get the same results against the Sheik. This is called "viability": a character that is deemed viable is a character that can get the best results at a top-level tournament, which is naturally filled with top-tier characters and high-degree opponents.

That said, tiers only really matter if you really want to win tournaments. The reason top players like ZeRo and Nairo pick the best characters (Sheik and Zero Suit Samus respectively) is because there's a ton of money riding on tournament wins, in addition to the fact that other top players will use similarly top-tier characters, so they need every advantage they can get. If you don't really want to win for the sake of winning (which, in my opinion, is terribly dull in itself), then just play the character you want to play. Tiers don't matter as much in this game as they do in the rest of the Smash series, to be fair: while there is still a sizable power gap between the top-tiers and the bottom-tiers, even a bottom-tier character can expect to do well at a local or regional level with a good player at the helm!

 

[Eisal]

Fast characters are usually the top tier ones. Fast, with spamable moves, not much lag inbetween attacks, and usually a ranged option.

Rather safe approach options too, and grabs that leads into something almost all the time.

I play Palutena, Ike and recently picked up Robin. I find it difficult to play quick characters.

 

[Playerhater]

To each his own, who are your mains?

Kirby all day bruah. Other than that, I enjoy characters like Game & Watch, Ness, Ryu, Jigglypuff and Falcon.

What's the fun of playing a character who's options (or lack of) are destroyed by better characters?

Don't blame the character for losing. Plus it's way more fun to trash a top-tier character with another character. I never looked at the tier list until a few minutes ago.
It explains why there is a sudden increase of Luigi, Zero Suit Samus and Sheik players. Didn't know the Smash community took it that serious. It's quite sad.Especially when you see most people playing those three characters exactly in the same way. Camp, spam the projectiles and attack when someone approaches.

Of course I'm not talkiing about tourney players, I'm talking 1-on-1 for glory.

 

[MapleWooD]

Tiers are for queers?

jk. Tiers are important in a competitive atmosphere. Players playing competitively strive to win, so it's vital they know what's best.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

My mains are in my signature, and I like all of them because they fit my playstyle, whether they be good (Peach) or not (Doc).

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Kirby all day bruah. Other than that, I enjoy characters like Game & Watch, Ness, Ryu, Jigglypuff and Falcon.


Don't blame the character for losing. Plus it's way more fun to trash a top-tier character with another character. I never looked at the tier list until a few minutes ago.
It explains why there is a sudden increase of Luigi, Zero Suit Samus and Sheik players. Didn't know the Smash community took it that serious. It's quite sad.Especially when you see most people playing those three characters exactly in the same way. Camp, spam the projectiles and attack when someone approaches.

Of course I'm not talkiing about tourney players, I'm talking 1-on-1 for glory.

ZSS only started popping up alot because of the up air to recovery Nairo started. I bet if Ganondorf was being used the most, they'd all use him.

 

[SwordM13X24]

The existence of tiers has been beaten to death many times over, but I'll give my 2 cents.

Take this example:
Let's pretend there was a Street Fighter game with only Ryu and Dan only in their SF4 forms. If ya are familiar with Street Fighter, ya can tell that Dan is vastly inferior to Ryu in terms of the ability to get to the bottom line: Make the foe's HP to zero.
Now because ya have said Dan is worse than Ryu, ya have "tier'd" the two characters. It's unavoidable with games with different methods of ways to go from point A to a goal. Some ways are strictly better than others.

Another example:
Ya have to complete a 100 meter track to the goal with as little time as possible and only use yar own body. Ya can choose many methods to finish the track like to crawl the track, to walk the track, to run the track, or with any other imaginable method to the finish track. Again some methods "tier" higher than others, and in this case it could be sprints or keep a stead pace dependin' on the person's body build and such.

Now this all said, there is nothin' in the world that tells ya TO NOT play Dan or handstand a 100 meter track. Ya simply are not usin' the most optimal way to get to the goal/bottom line.
So tiers do have a purpose, but it's purpose does not dictate on what yar dis/allow'd to do.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

The existence of tiers has been beaten to death many times over, but I'll give my 2 cents.

Take this example:
Let's pretend there was a Street Fighter game with only Ryu and Dan only in their SF4 forms. If ya are familiar with Street Fighter, ya can tell that Dan is vastly inferior to Ryu in terms of the ability to get to the bottom line: Make the foe's HP to zero.
Now because ya have said Dan is worse than Ryu, ya have "tier'd" the two characters. It's unavoidable with games with different methods of ways to go from point A to a goal. Some ways are strictly better than others.

Another example:
Ya have to complete a 100 meter track to the goal with as little time as possible and only use yar own body. Ya can choose many methods to finish the track like to crawl the track, to walk the track, to run the track, or with any other imaginable method to the finish track. Again some methods "tier" higher than others, and in this case it could be sprints or keep a stead pace dependin' on the person's body build and such.

Now this all said, there is nothin' in the world that tells ya TO NOT play Dan or handstand a 100 meter track. Ya simply are not usin' the most optimal way to get to the goal/bottom line.
So tiers do have a purpose, but it's purpose does not dictate on what yar dis/allow'd to do.

Isn't Dan that one Ryu clone who's a joke character?

 

[SwordM13X24]

Isn't Dan that one Ryu clone who's a joke character?

That's correct. Here's his wiki article about his gameplay. http://streetfighter.wikia.com/wiki/Dan#Gameplay
Horrible character to win, but great for laughs.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

That's correct. Here's his wiki article about his gameplay. http://streetfighter.wikia.com/wiki/Dan#Gameplay
Horrible character to win, but great for laughs.

Imagine someone winning a huge tournament like EVO without losing a game or round as Dan.

 

[SwordM13X24]

Imagine someone winning a huge tournament like EVO without losing a game or round as Dan.

That's like a Kirby winnin' a Melee tournament. Or someone that runs backwards in the Olympics... We can only dream.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

That's like a Kirby winnin' a Melee tournament. Or someone that runs backwards in the Olympics... We can only dream.

Both would be the biggest upset in gaming history.

 

[Lime Cultivist]

At high level play, or in my case (and many others) to just try to get at high level play, tier lists have to be followed to win. Depending on the game, it also might be better to play a high tier because they teach you a lot more than low tiers. Like, playing a really technical and fast character with a lot of options teaches you how to use those options well, whereas playing a bad character with only 1 good option in neutral doesn't teach you much because throwing out that one move is the only reliable thing you can do. Also, everyone will know how to fight a high tier in tournament, you can't rely on the opponent not knowing jank to help you win. I don't usually like low tiers in competitive. Just my opinion.

 

[Purin a.k.a. José]

tires don exits
... I believe in Tiers, but I also believe they are rather a "image" of the current meta than a definitive chart. Sheik was #1 in Melee, for 5 years. Fox only became the guy we know because of the players who pushed him to the limit; and several players, like M2K himself, are doubtful of how good he really is now. I hate to compare Smash 4 to Melee, but stuff won't stay the same on the rest of the game's life, unless there are extreme cases (Kirby in Melee, for example). Also, there are always the Patches.

 

[SwordM13X24]

Tiers are like an "image" of the meta, but we ultimately would like to reach that "perfect tier". It's like the 20XX arguments, but again we're only human so our image will change from time to time. If there were all the all-knowin' bein's in existence that study the game inside and out and long with every possible move to make which'll churn out all the possible games that can exist then we would have a perfect tier list.

A simpler example is that in Connect 4 the first player will always win if they knew all the knowledge there is about the game. Even though the number of games that can be calculate'd is huge, it can still be calculate'd. But more importantly is that the player turn has been "tier'd".

Now back to Smash, let's look at TAS's. With all possible moves are given to the player to us with said tools, the player can calculate what can and can't be done. Now what can/not be done doesn't give us on what we look for, which is what we SHOULD do to win. And to win is what limits the then incomprehensible pool through we CAN DO into what we SHOULD DO. With that, if ya don't have the proper moves to DO what ya SHOULD DO then that character has inferiority.


Oh boy, I think I got a lil' overboard with this response.

 

[mario15]

I don't own a Wii U and I hate playing online anyways, so I can't play. I really just get my practice from training mode on 3DS and playing against my friends who have Wii Us.

I don't own a Wii U and I hate playing online anyways, so I can't play. I really just get my practice from training mode on 3DS and playing against my friends who have Wii Us.

I don't care much for online either, I never understood why people pan games for not having online support. Playing online is good and all if you care about testing your skill against other players, but as for me, I know I'm not the best Smash player in the world, and that some of these pro Smashers could eat me alive. I'd rather play with my friends and family right next to me rather than play against some random person I don't know.

Edit: So on that note....Do any of you guys want to play some Smash? I don't really have anyone to play with at the moment, and I'm kind of bored.

 

[Eisal]

Also, there are always the Patches.

I swear I just read Peaches...

 

[MapleWooD]

ZSS only started popping up alot because of the up air to recovery Nairo started. I bet if Ganondorf was being used the most, they'd all use him.

Ganon main here. I can say that if he were played at high level and performed well, sure, people may play him for a bit. However, his popularity would not sustain him as he, well, sucks, especially without customs.

 

[MonadoEmbassy]

Personally, I'm kinda mixed about tiers. I like them in the sense that it tells me who I have a better chance of winning with. I main Falcon (as you can see in my signature) and it takes work. You can't pick him up and be instantly good. What I don't like is the fact that I get on For Glory and everybody is Shiek, Rosalina or ZSS Doing the same stuff over and over. In a tournament, I don't see this being an issue, as people use skill and can come up with counters. For a while, I always lost against ZSS because of her laser gun thing. Now that I've practiced and sorta have counters for things like that, I know what to do. For Glory is weird. I like it because I can win against ZSS players, and meet good players with actual skill, but dislike it for players that practice awful strategies with top tier characters that actually work.


Gosh, that took forever to type.

 

[windlessusher]

In my experience, I find that a tier list only really matters in high level play.

And it's more about learning the match ups for the characters as opposed to just picking the high tiers.

 

[MonadoEmbassy]

Ganon main here. I can say that if he were played at high level and performed well, sure, people may play him for a bit. However, his popularity would not sustain him as he, well, sucks, especially without customs.

But Ganondorf is King of Disrespect! Surely that's enough to sustain popularity despite him not being the best. I really like him, at least.

 

[MapleWooD]

In my experience, I find that a tier list only really matters in high level play.

And it's more about learning the match ups for the characters as opposed to just picking the high tiers.

Well, high tiers tend to have the majority, if not all, of matchups in their favor. But you are right about when they really matter. Of course, Meta Knight is, without a doubt, the best character in Brawl, but I highly doubt anyone I know can play him to even half his potential.

 

[Victor Marczyk]

At high level play, or in my case (and many others) to just try to get at high level play, tier lists have to be followed to win. Depending on the game, it also might be better to play a high tier because they teach you a lot more than low tiers. Like, playing a really technical and fast character with a lot of options teaches you how to use those options well, whereas playing a bad character with only 1 good option in neutral doesn't teach you much because throwing out that one move is the only reliable thing you can do. Also, everyone will know how to fight a high tier in tournament, you can't rely on the opponent not knowing jank to help you win. I don't usually like low tiers in competitive. Just my opinion.

Well the game isn't exactly the most technical to begin with and if you really just study the dynamics of a low tier character then you could actually succeed more than you think

 

[MonadoEmbassy]

Well the game isn't exactly the most technical to begin with and if you really just study the dynamics of a low tier character then you could actually succeed more than you think

I really wish I could understand that, but I find it waaaaay too difficult to play as, let's say Mewtwo, who's a glass cannon who lacks firepower, as to Shiek, who has plenty of power and speed to do whatever.

 

[MapleWooD]

I really wish I could understand that, but I find it waaaaay too difficult to play as, let's say Mewtwo, who's a glass cannon who lacks firepower, as to Shiek, who has plenty of power and speed to do whatever.

It's weird, but entirely possible (also opinionated). I think accepting a character's tier is a good thing. If you understand that a character is bad, you can learn to play around their cons, which is just as important as playing to their strengths.

 

[M15t3R E]

Tiers are important to recognize but not as relevant in this game. It seems like the most balanced game in the series so far. However, that means it's more important than ever to know every MU for your character.

 

[MonadoEmbassy]

It's weird, but entirely possible (also opinionated). I think accepting a character's tier is a good thing. If you understand that a character is bad, you can learn to play around their cons, which is just as important as playing to their strengths.

Yeah. I really like Falco. He's not exactly top tier, but I've fought battles with bad matchups and won, so I get what you're saying. Again, the biggest problem with tiers (M15t3R E kind of elaborated on) is the way people use tiers in this game. Everything is balanced. That's why people pick Shiek in for glory. I guess you could call it Meta Knight syndrome in the fact that somebody (forgot who) plays Shiek, then everybody else plays Shiek. Nobody really knows how to play Shiek, but since she is top tier, people think they can just pick her up and play. Therefore, despite being a bad matchup against Captain Falcon, I almost always win against For Glory Shieks.

 

[FallenHero]

The existence of tiers has been beaten to death many times over, but I'll give my 2 cents.

Take this example:
Let's pretend there was a Street Fighter game with only Ryu and Dan only in their SF4 forms. If ya are familiar with Street Fighter, ya can tell that Dan is vastly inferior to Ryu in terms of the ability to get to the bottom line: Make the foe's HP to zero.
Now because ya have said Dan is worse than Ryu, ya have "tier'd" the two characters. It's unavoidable with games with different methods of ways to go from point A to a goal. Some ways are strictly better than others.

Another example:
Ya have to complete a 100 meter track to the goal with as little time as possible and only use yar own body. Ya can choose many methods to finish the track like to crawl the track, to walk the track, to run the track, or with any other imaginable method to the finish track. Again some methods "tier" higher than others, and in this case it could be sprints or keep a stead pace dependin' on the person's body build and such.

Now this all said, there is nothin' in the world that tells ya TO NOT play Dan or handstand a 100 meter track. Ya simply are not usin' the most optimal way to get to the goal/bottom line.
So tiers do have a purpose, but it's purpose does not dictate on what yar dis/allow'd to do.

lol I read this in my head with the Scout's voice from TF2.

Of course I'm not talkiing about tourney players, I'm talking 1-on-1 for glory.

Why are you even here then? A tier list does not even matter outside of high level competition, and no, 1-on-1 for glory is not high level competition. Like I said before, you can play whoever you want, but don't expect to be winning any tournaments with a low tier character.

 

[Lime Cultivist]

Well the game isn't exactly the most technical to begin with and if you really just study the dynamics of a low tier character then you could actually succeed more than you think

I think I was looking more at Melee than 4, but some characters I can never see as being viable at high level play. Mainly slower ones.