Do patches scare you?

[LancerStaff]

...Why? How could that possibly be a bad thing? In a smash 4 with better balance, people have a comparable amount of options, or at least in the absence of options, they have balancing strengths. Having 3 or 4 people fighting each other wouldn't change this. It's not like team mechanics would get any more ridiculous than they are now. In 2v2s, the moment the match becomes a 2v1, the lone person to get grabbed basically loses.

Sakurai doesn't do very well when it comes to making competitive balancing decisions, lets be honest, he never has. I figured this is what Namco was supposed to be for (since they probably have the best track record for balancing huge fighting games), but apparently not.

Because FFAs sell the game. 1v1s don't. Who's moronic enough to balance the game around what amounts to a side mode at best?

Samus is a good example. She's basically Charge Shot the character. Give her real options to defend herself and now she's the absolute best character in FFAs. Take away the current Charge Shot and buff her other moves a bit more and now she's balanced... But now she's boring to play because she's a nothing-special no gimmick character. That doesn't fly in Smash. Which is why she's Charge Shot the character.

 

[Gawain]

tech rolls have much better frame data in smash 4... unless youre little mac, so tech chasing with grabs isn't all that
also i didn't realize that you couldn't tech throws?

Not really. Roys Fthrow works well for tech chasing fast fallers. Techs are still slow enough to react to, you just dont get opportunities since everything in this game sends people too vertical or has too much lag.

 

[LightLV]

Because FFAs sell the game. 1v1s don't. Who's moronic enough to balance the game around what amounts to a side mode at best?

...A good game designer? Or not, I wasn't aware "good balance" and "more than 2 people at once" were mutually exclusive concepts.

Samus is a good example. She's basically Charge Shot the character. Give her real options to defend herself and now she's the absolute best character in FFA. Take away the current Charge Shot and buff her other moves a bit more and now she's balanced... But now she's boring to play because she's a nothing-special no gimmick character. That doesn't fly in Smash. Which is why she's Charge Shot the character.

Why are they nerfing her charge shot to make her a good character

I feel like we live on different planets, where my planet is the one with all the Smash tourneys.

the characters you've mentioned on both lists have barely moved, if even at all, and i don't think time is really going to change that too much.

No. I'm still hoping for the impossible patch that removes all kill throws, makes all f and b throws have set knockback(or very low growths) at low trajectories to enable common and non-braindead tech chasing, and that makes throws techable. It'll never happen but that would make the grab and throw game in Smash immaculate. We'd finally have an Oki game to speak of.

Throw tech would be so great...but that's probably too "hardcore" for this game. Kind of like shieldstun/push or fall KOs.

 

[ewItsBoo]

The only thing I fear is a patch the day before I go to a tournament nerfing my main.

 

[LancerStaff]

...A good game designer? Or not, I wasn't aware "good balance" and "more than 2 people at once" were mutually exclusive concepts.



Why are they nerfing her charge shot to make her a good character

They are if you're balancing for FFAs and not 1v1s.

Because Samus right now is basically perfectly balanced for FFAs. Give her significantly better anything and she'll need to be nerfed in other areas for FFAs, and the Charge Shot is the only acceptable thing to nerf in 1v1s.

 

[neohopeSTF]

They are if you're balancing for FFAs and not 1v1s.

Because Samus right now is basically perfectly balanced for FFAs. Give her significantly better anything and she'll need to be nerfed in other areas for FFAs, and the Charge Shot is the only acceptable thing to nerf in 1v1s.

Diddy isn't that good in FFAs and he got ran into the ground. You can't really balance FFAs.

 

[LancerStaff]

Diddy isn't that good in FFAs and he got ran into the ground. You can't really balance FFAs.

That's just wrong. Solid Smashes, high weight for his size and speed, Uspecial and Nspecial fully charged KO, Uair I'm sure still KOs, and he has quick enough combos to where they'll actually be pulled off in a FFA... He's not weak in FFAs by any stretch of the imagination. Nobody is.

 

[Tino]

Even if they nerf Rosalina, it ain't gonna stop me from playing as her as I'm having too much fun with her. This whole buff/nerf thing that this community takes too seriously is completely meaningless to me. I just play the game.

Only thing I fear about patches is losing my replays again.

 

[neohopeSTF]

That's just wrong. Solid Smashes, high weight for his size and speed, Uspecial and Nspecial fully charged KO, Uair I'm sure still KOs, and he has quick enough combos to where they'll actually be pulled off in a FFA... He's not weak in FFAs by any stretch of the imagination. Nobody is.

If nobody is weak in FFA then why is there buffs and why is there nerfs in the first place. Also if you are going by the idea that they are balancing for the casual fans that play FFA, are items balanced?

 

[LancerStaff]

If nobody is weak in FFA then why is there buffs and why is there nerfs in the first place. Also if you are going by the idea that they are balancing for the casual fans that play FFA, are items balanced?

Because they can without intruding on the balance of FFAs much, if at all if they go about it the right way. Charizard is a good example. Dthrow now combos, but takes much too long to even pull off the throw, much less the whole combo. Uthrow kills, but anybody who can throw out a decently long lasting hitbox can stop it cold upon landing.

Items are balanced in the sense that they're completely random. Over many matches they even out. But from the sounds of things, the game is primarily balanced around the rules of for Glory FFAs.

 

[neohopeSTF]

Because they can without intruding on the balance of FFAs much, if at all if they go about it the right way. Charizard is a good example. Dthrow now combos, but takes much too long to even pull off the throw, much less the whole combo. Uthrow kills, but anybody who can throw out a decently long lasting hitbox can stop it cold upon landing.

Items are balanced in the sense that they're completely random. Over many matches they even out. But from the sounds of things, the game is primarily balanced around the rules of for Glory FFAs.

Combos don't matter in FFAs they can be disrupted by any player at anytime so why would there be a need to give a character a new combo in FFA or nerf/buff their combos? Face it you can't balance FFA. The patches are made with 1v1s in mind. Which people felt Diddy was too good in FFAs? When do you hear people say characters are too OP in FFAs? They balance the game around 1v1s For Glory rules by the looks of it because so many people complained about Mac that he was nerfed when he sucked to begin with. And no items being completely random doesn't make them balanced.

 

[LancerStaff]

Combos don't matter in FFAs they can be disrupted by any player at anytime so why would there be a need to give a character a new combo in FFA or nerf/buff their combos? Face it you can't balance FFA. The patches are made with 1v1s in mind. Which people felt Diddy was too good in FFAs? When do you hear people say characters are too OP in FFAs? They balance the game around 1v1s For Glory rules by the looks of it because so many people complained about Mac that he was nerfed when he sucked to begin with. And no items being completely random doesn't make them balanced.

I just said that combos are largely irrelevant for FFAs. Which is why they can balance FFAs and 1v1s "separately" at all.

Diddy's nerfs didn't do that much for FFAs. Actually, he probably received slightly more for FFAs then he lost since his jab was buffed, and something else I think...

Yes, you can balance FFAs. Which would explain why characters like Kirby and Samus were nerfed since Smashfest.

People don't complain about FFAs anymore. Brawl had plenty of problematic characters. Ike was much better in FFAs before, and Pit in particular was pretty much trash for FFAs having basically two decent kill moves and being highly gimpable by virtually any thrown item. There's more, but I don't really remember anyway... Point is that there's been plenty of balancing for FFAs.

Items are balanced for what they are. They're literally "for Fun". For Glory FFAs are what the game is primarily balanced for.

 

[Dr. Bread]

the idea that anyone would suggest the game is being patched in response to free-for-alls with items on wi-fi is ludicrous to be honest. Why is this being discussed?

 

[Wintropy]

Please cite verifiable sources if you're going to claim that the game is balanced exclusively for free-for-alls.

It's good faith in any debate to offer citations if you're going to make blanket statements.

 

[Balgorxz]

patches did scare me until I started playing ikeand link in 1.08.
they are more than welcome

 

[LancerStaff]

http://smashboards.com/threads/the-act-of-balancing”-sakurai-famitsu-column-translation.405954/

Here's something I found quick.

"Another problem we have to consider is that battles can take on many formats in Smash. There are moves that are completely useless in a 1v1 battle, but in a four-player free-for-all those moves might prove quite useful. Therefore, if I played only one kind of battle, the game would feel very slanted towards a particular style of play.

Furthermore, if I went with what is fair according to advanced players, the beginners wouldn’t be able to keep up. For example, Kirby’s Stone attack probably won’t hit a player above intermediate skill level, but if I made it more powerful, it would destroy beginners.

At the end of the day, I’m aiming for intermediately-skilled players to be able to properly enjoy the game. Fundamentally, my goal with Smash has been to create an “enjoyable party game”. If you want to enjoy thrilling tactical gameplay, you might be better suited for other 2D fighting games."

Furthermore, just looking at the balance is proof enough. Characters with powerful holdable charge attacks are mostly low. Lucario is only as good as he is because plenty of top tiers aren't all that good at KOing. Most super heavyweights are garbage in 1v1s. Doc VS. Mario, Ness VS. Lucas, Fox VS. Falco, and even Pit VS. Dark Pit make more sense balance wise when you look at them with FFAs in mind.

 

[Wintropy]

That still doesn't demonstrate that he balances exclusively for free-for-alls, which is what I requested.

He also cites Little Mac's overwhelming loss / victory ratio in For Glory as something to take into account when balancing characters. The fact that, as has been previously mentioned, characters like Diddy and Mac - characters that were consistently criticised as being "too good" in the early stages of the game - were quite heavily nerfed should demonstrate that Sakurai considers more than FFA when balancing characters.

We must also remember that this is more than just one man. He has a team of developers to consult with when designing balance patches, he attends tournaments, he examines For Glory data and he takes fan demand into consideration.

If patches scare you, it should not be because Sakurai regards FFA as the alpha / omega of Smash gameplay. He has demonstrated time and again that he does indeed consider what fans have to say, whether or not that's really necessary in the grand scheme of things.

 

[LightLV]

Damn you guys just took this "lol they balance for FFA" and ran hard with it, didn't you?

 

[Sodo]

I've always been of the mindset that buffs, not nerfs, are the better choice during patches. Sure, the first Diddy nerf was justified, but past that I would've rather seen buffs to less viable characters instead.

 

[A_Kae]

I've always been of the mindset that buffs, not nerfs, are the better choice during patches. Sure, the first Diddy nerf was justified, but past that I would've rather seen buffs to less viable characters instead.

What do you even think has been happening.

There have way more buffs to less viable characters than nerfs to viable ones.

 

[Divemissile]

What do you even think has been happening.

There have way more buffs to less viable characters than nerfs to viable ones.

Exactly. I hate it when people whine about nerfs like it happens to a ton of characters

 

[LancerStaff]

That still doesn't demonstrate that he balances exclusively for free-for-alls, which is what I requested.

He also cites Little Mac's overwhelming loss / victory ratio in For Glory as something to take into account when balancing characters. The fact that, as has been previously mentioned, characters like Diddy and Mac - characters that were consistently criticised as being "too good" in the early stages of the game - were quite heavily nerfed should demonstrate that Sakurai considers more than FFA when balancing characters.

We must also remember that this is more than just one man. He has a team of developers to consult with when designing balance patches, he attends tournaments, he examines For Glory data and he takes fan demand into consideration.

If patches scare you, it should not be because Sakurai regards FFA as the alpha / omega of Smash gameplay. He has demonstrated time and again that he does indeed consider what fans have to say, whether or not that's really necessary in the grand scheme of things.

He balances for FFAs first. I don't recall ever saying "only." If Samus can't have her originality and be balanced for 1v1s without ruining FFA, she won't. If Shiek can't be balanced for 1v1s without ruining her in FFAs, she won't.

And who's to say Mac was perfectly balanced for FFAs to begin with? Or Luigi and his small Fair hitbox, or Palutena's lingering Usmash, or Greninja in general, or DDD's Gordos? Like, half the things in the very first patch changed plenty of characters' FFA performance. And I'm going to say that it made FFAs more balanced in the end.

Back to the very article I sited, Sakurai says that if he doesn't agree with the changes his team agree upon, it just won't happen. He's ultimately in complete control over the balance.

 

[Dr. Bread]

sometimes the nerfs matter more than buffs. i can understand why people have payed more attention to the nerfs.
Simply having a lot of buffs doesn't mean they're relevant. Imagine they buffed captain falcon's up-smash in speed, coverage, or knockback. ok cool i'll take it falcon's up-smash was pretty not good. But compare that to say, reducing the kbg on d-throw or better still, giving it a more vertical angle?

 

[A_Kae]

sometimes the nerfs matter more than buffs. i can understand why people have payed more attention to the nerfs.
Simply having a lot of buffs doesn't mean they're relevant. Imagine they buffed captain falcon's up-smash in speed, coverage, or knockback. ok cool i'll take it falcon's up-smash was pretty not good. But compare that to say, reducing the kbg on d-throw or better still, giving it a more vertical angle?

And sometimes the buffs matter more than the nerfs. Which they have, in this case.

 

[LightLV]

He balances for FFAs first. I don't recall ever saying "only." If Samus can't have her originality and be balanced for 1v1s without ruining FFA, she won't. If Shiek can't be balanced for 1v1s without ruining her in FFAs, she won't.

And who's to say Mac was perfectly balanced for FFAs to begin with? Or Luigi and his small Fair hitbox, or Palutena's lingering Usmash, or Greninja in general, or DDD's Gordos? Like, half the things in the very first patch changed plenty of characters' FFA performance. And I'm going to say that it made FFAs more balanced in the end.

Back to the very article I sited, Sakurai says that if he doesn't agree with the changes his team agree upon, it just won't happen. He's ultimately in complete control over the balance.

I think you're hinging way too hard on the idea that Samus is only bad because FFA is something the developers take seriously. People get hit and die in FFA the exact same as they do in 1v1, your whole idea is flawed. Granted, it may be harder to tell shes terrible if you consider FFAs, the same way it's harder to tell that she sucks in 1v1 if you ONLY play For Glory, where latency allows a style of gameplay that doesn't work offline, and her shortcomings are masked.

Regardless, none of this stops her from being factually bad no matter how you consider her. If Samus is "Charge Shot the Character", and she's killing people in FFA by sitting back and charge shotting, she's going to get targeted and blown up, and the same issues that plague her in 1v1 are going to help it happen. So, like in For Glory or anywhere else, she's only "better" in an FFA situation if the people you're playing suck.

I could understand if you said she's better in 2v2s, because I believe Zelda is a much, much better character in 2v2 than she is in 1v1, because she has a teammate, again to mask her shortcomings in a PRACTICAL way, and allow her strengths to show themselves. But this "FFA balance" is just nonsense, in the context of 1v1 balancing, it's almost literally no different.

 

[Rikkhan]

Regardless, none of this stops her from being factually bad no matter how you consider her. If Samus is "Charge Shot the Character", and she's killing people in FFA by sitting back and charge shotting, she's going to get targeted and blown up

Except this hardly happens, sitting back and charge shotting is legit in casual FFA, thats why she is widely known as Spamus.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Except this hardly happens, sitting back and charge shotting is legit in casual FFA, thats why she is widely known as Spamus.

This also happened (happens?) with alarming frequency in For Glory.

 

[LancerStaff]

I think you're hinging way too hard on the idea that Samus is only bad because FFA is something the developers take seriously. People get hit and die in FFA the exact same as they do in 1v1, your whole idea is flawed. Granted, it may be harder to tell shes terrible if you consider FFAs, the same way it's harder to tell that she sucks in 1v1 if you ONLY play For Glory, where latency allows a style of gameplay that doesn't work offline, and her shortcomings are masked.

Regardless, none of this stops her from being factually bad no matter how you consider her. If Samus is "Charge Shot the Character", and she's killing people in FFA by sitting back and charge shotting, she's going to get targeted and blown up, and the same issues that plague her in 1v1 are going to help it happen. So, like in For Glory or anywhere else, she's only "better" in an FFA situation if the people you're playing suck.

I could understand if you said she's better in 2v2s, because I believe Zelda is a much, much better character in 2v2 than she is in 1v1, because she has a teammate, again to mask her shortcomings in a PRACTICAL way, and allow her strengths to show themselves. But this "FFA balance" is just nonsense, in the context of 1v1 balancing, it's almost literally no different.

I've seen enough people play Samus in FFAs to know that's she's not weak in them... The only people who doubt her FFA performance are either extremely salty over something or don't play FFAs.

People don't get targeted in FFAs because tunnel vision is freakin' dangerous. Let's say Captain Falcon singles out Samus in a three person match because he's tired of Charge Shots wizzing by. This leaves Luigi with nobody to deal with, so he's just going to start tossing projectiles. Meaning Caps is dealing with Samus and a constant barrage of fireballs, and somehow I doubt he wins that matchup. Luigi outright wins because he's staying out of direct combat and bilking KOs, Samus comes in second because she's really only fighting one guy, and Captain Falcon, the person who tried to hunt down Samus, mind you, is in last because he got teamed against. Why doesn't Luigi help Captain Falcon, you ask? Helping a rushdown character beat up a tin can doesn't result in as many chances to steal KOs. Samus can't do anything else in the situation... But nobody wants to start it in the first place because they'll get last. Samus can't really target either of them because they're going to change positions faster then can control her CS. Samus gets her power both from people wanting to stop her but from people not wanting to lose.

Now, that was three players and not four, but in my experience it's much the same result. Just much more complex. Let's just say FFA is less skill and more politics and leave it at that.

 

[Man of shame]

How to not fear patches

1. be a king dedede main
2. Never get buffed or nerfed
3. get angry because your replays got deleted
4. ?????
5. profit

 

[Ravine]

Top tier nerfs benefit my main, so I, for one, embrace it.
Yeah I hated the concept of patches before, but whatever I can live with it.

 

[Schnizzle Fits]

These balance changes are nowhere near as bad as PM. At worst some moves no longer KO as early. They have been baby steps, which more devs should do. Yes this does suck for low tiers, but these last patches have finaly started focusing on them.

Whatever data they are using to collect information at least is showing them the problem. Which is likely a mix of Japanese players and for glory results.

 

[outfoxd]

How to not fear patches

1. be a king dedede main
2. Never get buffed or nerfed
3. get angry because your replays got deleted
4. ?????
5. profit

I followed this plan modified for DHD. I'm rolling in salty tears.

 

[Delzethin]

Not at all, so far. Most of the changes they've made have been reasonable, and more importantly, they've been small. The only major changes they've made have been nerfing Diddy's uair to hell (which made sense, considering how overpowered the hah was) and changing up Charizard's up and down throws so that they made more sense. Everything else has been small changes to damage and knockback, fine turning that's helped the game be a little more balanced every time.

 

[exnecross]

Yes, patches scare me, for obvious reasons. My girl is gonna be hit again and again, as she has been consistently nerfed in every patch thus far (although miraculously avoiding the latest one).

 

[LightLV]

Yes, patches scare me, for obvious reasons. My girl is gonna be hit again and again, as she has been consistently nerfed in every patch thus far (although miraculously avoiding the latest one).

They've been continuously nerfing Diddy and he won the EVO grand finals match. I'd say Shiek is in NO danger of ever being made anything less than an S-tier character.

 

[Sodo]

What do you even think has been happening.

There have way more buffs to less viable characters than nerfs to viable ones.

Uhh, not sure what you're saying here... I'm agreeing with you... The nerfs are few and far between compared to the buffs... I don't like nerfs. Take a chill pill.

 

[Dsull]

Tbh i wouldnt care about patches if nintendo would release patch notes so we know what the heck changed.
No idea how irritated i was to find my Dk was suddenly hitting like a wet noodle and i had to change my gameplay.

I also play Dota2 and i really dont care when a hero gets buffed/nerfed signficantly because i KNOW its happening and HOW its happening. With Sm4sh we have no flippin idea until someone datamines it. I dont even know what the latest patch did other than Ryu's Focus Punch slump effect lingers a little longer so he can actually HIT you before you go too low lol.

 

[LancerStaff]

Tbh i wouldnt care about patches if nintendo would release patch notes so we know what the heck changed.
No idea how irritated i was to find my Dk was suddenly hitting like a wet noodle and i had to change my gameplay.

I also play Dota2 and i really dont care when a hero gets buffed/nerfed signficantly because i KNOW its happening and HOW its happening. With Sm4sh we have no flippin idea until someone datamines it. I dont even know what the latest patch did other than Ryu's Focus Punch slump effect lingers a little longer so he can actually HIT you before you go too low lol.

Don't think DK lost much, if any power last real patch... Cargo works now, anyway.

1.0.9 didn't do anything but fix how long it took to boot up the game. Ryu hasn't been around long enough to be patched. What you're seeing are people canceling the endlag of the focus punch.

 

[Dsull]

Don't think DK lost much, if any power last real patch... Cargo works now, anyway.

1.0.9 didn't do anything but fix how long it took to boot up the game. Ryu hasn't been around long enough to be patched. What you're seeing are people canceling the endlag of the focus punch.

Nono i mean the slump part of it, not Ryu himself. When he first came out i couldnt ever land any non-dsmash/tilt attacks fast enough before they slump too far down to be hit by say Fsmash or even grabbed. Now i can with ease. And for some reason canceling the punch doesnt work for me once the punch goes off, i dont get how people cancel it and attack quicker afterwords. I just stand there tapping left or right to no avail

 

[LancerStaff]

Nono i mean the slump part of it, not Ryu himself. When he first came out i couldnt ever land any non-dsmash/tilt attacks fast enough before they slump too far down to be hit by say Fsmash or even grabbed. Now i can with ease. And for some reason canceling the punch doesnt work for me once the punch goes off, i dont get how people cancel it and attack quicker afterwords. I just stand there tapping left or right to no avail

Yeah, you can cancel the endlag after the punch on hit. It hasn't been touched, otherwise my replay of my first Ryu fight still wouldn't be there. Well that, and there's no 3DS equivalent patch.