CPU won EVO!

[bobson]

I clicked this thread and was sincerely disappointed that it wasn't about a level 9 CPU winning a tournament.

 

[Samus-T]

are there any vids of evo matches?

 

[Ponder]

No, I mean without smash balls and all that BS. You said that with evenly matched players, the match goes to the best item user. I'm saying that the best item user will win even if there is a decently large difference in skill.

Would CPU beat Ken without items? I have no idea. Items on vs Items off are entirely different games, of course. Even with items on, though, the player with the most skill wins (including skillful use of and skillfully controlling space to maximize your access to items). At least, that was the case at Evo.

There were a lot of players who were trying to take advantage of items exclusively to win, and all of them got peaced out. Not a single Sonic player made it out of their pools. None of the SRK players who play with items exclusively made it out of their pools. They just weren't as good as the people who beat them, and items were not good enough to make up the difference in skill.

 

[Beetle Juice]

umm guys what ken are you talking about i know you aren't talking about melee ken with marth so i don't know exactly who?

 

[Samus-T]

lol melee ken

 

[Ray/Boshi]

I agree with what Ponder's saying on the, people didnt know how to react or sucsessfully escape certain FS's and items. People act like vampires to garlic with the term 'items' on brawl. People most probably rarely play brawl with items on. It does take skill to adapt to avoiding all of the different items that pop up, let alone using them perfectly to you're advantage. Fair play of luck even, item might save you, or end you.. Sounds like it was a fun tourney.

 

[null55]

It does take skill to adapt to avoiding all of the different items that pop up, let alone using them perfectly to you're advantage.

I really don't want to go into the items vs no items debate... (1) because it's annoying to try to convince people who play with items that the result of a match with items may not have anything to do with skill and (2) because the reason for items not being allowed in tournaments should be extremely obvious.

I would have to know which ones were allowed and on what frequency to construct a specific argument, but nearly all of them are extremely stupid, especially the final smash, which for some characters is so ridiculously useless and for others it is absurdly powerful and difficult to avoid. But the fact of the matter is that items are random and can rapidly change the tides of a match just by pure luck. Whether you like it or not, they certainly do allow a less skilled player (who may get lucky and move right next to where a maximum tomato falls or where a bomb appears, or an assist trophy, etc.) to defeat a superior player. That is all I'll say on the subject...

 

[f0cus]

Oh items are so much fun , hot head + fire = the sun!

 

[frdagaa]

Fun, yes. Also bull****.

That being said, it's not a completely meaningless victory. Just.... very little meaning.

 

[M3zm3r1z3]

they're cute I guess but people aren't gonna wanna travel for this

 

[DRaGZ]

It means he was the best at using items. Thas it.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

World Champion...with items on.

*facepalms*

 

[frdagaa]

It means he was the best at using items. Thas it.

Warning: I'm actually going to seriously reply, even though I'm not sure your reply was serious.

I watched one of the matches Ken played against a falco. While items were used, actual combos/attacks were still way more prominent. It's easy to just be hard on items. They do add an element of randomness to the game, just like tripping does. However, that element of randomness is not the whole game (though it does play a larger role than tripping). If CPU had truly played significantly worse than Ken did then it's unlikely the items would change that. The probability of CPU getting a huge advantage because of items is lower than the probability of them both getting roughly the same benefits. It is highly possible that the items were the deciding factor. However, that doesn't take away from the fact that CPU is at least able to play close to Ken's level. Otherwise CPU wouldn't have gotten to the point where items would allow a victory (aka by losing to one of the other players at EVO or just losing to Ken). That's really all I was saying in my previous post.

 

[QUIVO]

I heard some matches had all FS kills for CPU.

 

[JJR.O.B.]

While items were used, actual combos/attacks were still way more prominent

Wait! did you just say combos...


There are no true combos in Brawl!

 

[Crizthakidd]

obviously mad skill is still shown with items because the players were really good its just that you know... random bombs and final smashes.. epic fail?

 

[MookieRah]

I also saw one Snake (I believe) accidentally knock the Smash Ball over to his opponent who was all the way off the screen trying to come back into play.

That would be true if your attacks actually affected the trajectory of the smash ball, but they don't, as they just move about randomly.

But yeah, EVO was garbs, and I'm sad that Ken even bothered with it considering. This just sorta proves how items and smash balls add enough luck into the equation that a mediocre ROB could take down Ken. Sadly, the people running EVO think that their ruleset was a "success" and bolster about how this tournament legitimizes it, when in fact very few big names showed up and the attendence was less than half of the last melee tournament they hosted.

It's a sad story, EVO used to be pretty badass, but now they are unable to be reasoned with and they think they are awesome when in fact their brawl portion is just a big joke.

 

[SenorPresidente]

Well most of them see the smash series as a joke so they couldn't care less if the better player wins. They just care if its entertaining.

 

[GI Josh]

Wait! did you just say combos...


There are no true combos in Brawl!

the term combo is used very loosley, a "combo" in Brawl is a string of attacks that you just manage to pull off

 

[indianunit]

Come on guys it's one tournament let it go. So CPU won with mostly items big deal it's over what's done is done it's all in the past now.

I saw the matches on youtube and I have to say both played quite well even though I guess it was clear that ken had more skill but CPU played just as well.

Hey if it's a tournament with items on why not utilize the items? I'm not saying items are good, I hate using items just as much as the next guy but CPU did what he had to do to win. Isn't that what winning is about? Using everything and anything you have in you're arsenal to kick ***?

 

[SenorPresidente]

No one is blaming CPU for using items, Ken also used the items. The problem is that we all know Ken is simply the better player but he didn't win. Ken has been playing for years while this was CPU very first tournament. The level of skill between the two was big but items and smashballs just proved that they do in fact have a big impact.

Again EVO only seemed to care about the average MvC2 player finding the pretty lights amusing instead of the smash community. I feel bad for CPU as he will always be remember as "That guy who got lucky against Ken with the smashballs"

 

[indianunit]

You know the evo matches are up on youtube.

I was watching the matches and though it was true Ken had more skill, the items really did add more excitement into the matches (especially the smashballs).

Just thought I'd say that.

 

[Overswarm]

Oh, don't give Ken that much credit. This was his first big Brawl tournament too; we just know that, with practice, he would be a great Brawl player like he was in Melee. He has the skills necessary. CPU beat someone who was better than him, but Ken isn't the deity he was in Melee.

 

[TeeVee]

CPU plays the most basic ROB i've ever seen, until items pop on the screen. Once the items pop up, all I see is him comboing glidetosses and flying around the screen like a madman. I never thought I could say someone was good with items, but he really is...Too bad his non item skills are lacking totally.

 

[GenesisJLS]

CPU plays the most basic ROB i've ever seen, until items pop on the screen. Once the items pop up, all I see is him comboing glidetosses and flying around the screen like a madman. I never thought I could say someone was good with items, but he really is...Too bad his non item skills are lacking totally.

Where have you seen him play?

 

[SenorPresidente]

Oh, don't give Ken that much credit. This was his first big Brawl tournament too; we just know that, with practice, he would be a great Brawl player like he was in Melee. He has the skills necessary. CPU beat someone who was better than him, but Ken isn't the deity he was in Melee.

Well i know Ken is no were near as good as he was in melee but still Ken does have a lot of experience that should had been sufficient to beat CPU.

You know the evo matches are up on youtube.

I was watching the matches and though it was true Ken had more skill, the items really did add more excitement into the matches (especially the smashballs).

Just thought I'd say that.

There were some parts that did made me go "that was awesoem" but most of it i am just buying into the hype of the video.

 

[GenesisJLS]

Does CPU even come on these boards?

 

[TeeVee]

Where have you seen him play?

Youtube vids

 

[majoras.]

Does CPU even come on these boards?

does that matters?


well ken had the same opportunity as cpu to grab the items and use them...this just takes away credibility to evo for hosting only competitive games.

congratulations to cpu for winning the tournament, it was with items yes but no advantage to any player as all had the same opportunity to grab the items.

 

[Sudai]

The argument against items is that they drop in random places. If both characters got the same item at the same time no matter what, then maybe we'd play with them. Even then though, it'd still probably be too random to play with them. Let me do some math for you.

Lets assume that both characters have a 50% chance to get an item.
Lets assume there's 100 seconds in a match and an item drops each second.
Each player gets 50 items.
Lets assume there's only 1% chance that a super strong item spawns within 100 seconds of a match.
Each player has a .5% chance of getting the super strong item.
The super strong item spawns but only one person can get it.
One player gets a really strong item and 49 ok or bad items.
One player gets 50 ok or bad items.

Favor leans towards the player that got the super strong item.

Lets look at it where one player controls more of the stage.

One player controls 75% of the stage (effectively letting them get 75% of the items) while the other controls 25%. Obviously the player controlling 75% of the stage is in a better situation to get the items.
Lets go with the same odds from before. 100 seconds, 1% chance for the item to spawn in those 100 seconds.
This gives the seemingly better character a .75% chance to get a super strong item while he controls what he does.
Oh snap! Guess what, this stuff is RANDOM! .25% chance to happen can still happen so the player controlling les space gets the super strong item and now uses it to dominate a stock.

-random-

It's why items are shunned.

Randomness detracts from competitiveness. It's not that items themselves are inherently non-competitive, it's that they aren't set in stone. Even if you remove the super strong items, lets just say that all the "better" items spawn by a single player, they now have an advantage. It's silly.

I'm sure if we had the choice, we'd turn off the randomness on Luigi's misfire and Peach's FSmash and other moves that are random.

Anyway..I know no one was really arguing for the inclusion of items in competitive play...but I wanted to rant about items and why the suck. Resume normal discussions please.

 

[SerpentxTongue666]

Does CPU even come on these boards?

im skinny his brother so if u guys have ne questions feel free to ask. btw he doesnt suck with items off. he plays a whole other game when items were on. we practiced for evo with items on...but now dats its off when we go to tourneys u guys can see are true skillz. im sure hes one of da best robs out here rite now. hugs is probably da only better rob then him...

 

[frdagaa]

Heh. If you say so. There are at least 10 or so ROBs that I would say are way up there in ability, and every one of them (from what I've seen on youtube, at least) plays better than CPU did when no items were on the ground. Admittedly, that wasn't much, but don't start saying your brother's better than Sudai, Nacker, Toasty, OS, maxxx, Jay seize, or any of the others quite yet. At least two no-item tournaments with big names before you can trash-talk.

And this is coming from someone who hasn't even been to a serious tournament. I wanna see what the others think of that....

 

[SerpentxTongue666]

dude by no means am i saying hes a god rob. maybe hes not better than da names u just listed. and by no means am i trash talking. we yet have to go to more tourneys so he can prove himself. member hes only 14 and doesnt devote his life to smash. im jus saying hes a decent rob. dont hate on dat.

 

[Sudai]

I don't care if you actually think he's great or not, but I wanna point out a flaw in what you say.

im sure hes one of da best robs out here rite now. hugs is probably da only better rob then him...

That doesn't sound at all like

dude by no means am i saying hes a god rob.

 

[JCaesar]

im sure hes one of da best robs out here rite now. hugs is probably da only better rob then him...

dude by no means am i saying hes a god rob. maybe hes not better than da names u just listed.

What ?

Edit: **** Sudai beat me to it

 

[frdagaa]

Mmmk. Just had ta make sure ya respect your elders. :-p

Edit: and grats to your brother. This by itself doesn't really mean much, but it's still not too shabby for a 14 year old.

 

[GenesisJLS]

Serpent how much did your brother win at Evo?

 

[SerpentxTongue666]

Mmmk. Just had ta make sure ya respect your elders. :-p

Edit: and grats to your brother. This by itself doesn't really mean much, but it's still not too shabby for a 14 year old.

haha thank you. ya its decent for a 14 year old.

btw he won 742 bucks :D

 

[stingers]

I'll do a $500 ROB Ditto with him XFD

 

[DRaGZ]

Oh, don't give Ken that much credit. This was his first big Brawl tournament too; we just know that, with practice, he would be a great Brawl player like he was in Melee. He has the skills necessary. CPU beat someone who was better than him, but Ken isn't the deity he was in Melee.

I dunno...I played him at a bossy biweekly once, and he was pretty ****.

Just waltzed in, ***** everyone in the tournament, and left.

I don't think he ever lost by less than a two-stock.