Competitive Scene Without Metaknight- Theorizing

[Aran]

By my count, removing Meta Knight has a positive impact on 12 characters in the game. None of them would change tiers except Toon Link, who will probably go up to High Tier regardless of banning Meta Knight. Meanwhile, I count a negative impact on 15 of the characters in the game. None of these characters should be impacted enough to change tiers either, although I could see it contributing to a bigger picture decline of characters such as Kirby or Luigi if they go down for other reasons too.

That's my 39 cents.

Your numbers aren't entirely accurate here. For one, counting Captain Falcon and Ganondorf in is just throwing in more characters for the numbers. Additionally, you assume things like "Bowser, Samus, Luigi, and Mario" will be negatively affected because of more DDDs. I can't speak for the other characters, but I can tell you that I would rather fight more DDDs than more MKs as a Samus. Even with the chain throw. At least I can hit them. Although maybe the MK players I've been fighting are better than the DDDs I've been facing.

Let's look at this a different way. Would a lot of those "negatively affected characters" rather fight an MK than the other top tiers? By removing the largest obstacle to victory, would an increase in any of these other characters REALLY present as much of an obstacle for these "negatively affected characters"? If there are 2 more DDDs, 1 more Snake, and 1 more Falco that I have to fight against, it still beats fighting 4 MKs.

 

[Deleted member]

Now instead of MK ****** their sh*t, the other top tiers and high tiers will.

Let's look at this a different way. Would a lot of those "negatively affected characters" rather fight an MK than the other top tiers? By removing the largest obstacle to victory, would an increase in any of these other characters REALLY present as much of an obstacle for these "negatively affected characters"? If there are 2 more DDDs, 1 more Snake, and 1 more Falco that I have to fight against, it still beats fighting 4 MKs.

You guys put it so well.

MK > rest of top tier > low tier

Will eating the icing effect the rest of the cake?

 

[bobson]

I don't think DK will rise very much, given his utterly hopeless matchup against Dedede and that he wasn't as badly disadvantaged fighting Metaknight as most others anyway.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Very good Praxis. Here are my thoughts:

Without MK the tiers would perhaps look like this:

1. Snake / Dedede / GnW
2. Falco
3. ROB / Marth / Wario
4. Pikachu / Donkey Kong / Lucario

I didn't do it in a specific order, I just thought that these are the most used characters in tournaments withou MK. Snake / Dedede and GaW are pretty juch tied for the 1st place...Falco is Falco tier (like in Melee). Marth and Wario will be top tier, tied with ROB and DK + Pika will benefit a lot from MK being gone.

I think, that would be a pretty balanced top tier/top of high tier. There are many possible mixes of adv and disadv here, that could make it ver interesting.

So... you're just striking MK off the top tier and moving everyone else up...

I know I've explained this to you before THIS DOESN'T work. MK absolutely dominates the metagame, his influence massively changes the tier list, and one of the largest components of the current tier list is "how well you do against MK", because it translates into tournament results and ability to win tournaments.

Snake, DDD, G&W, Falco, ROB, Wario, etc all have concrete disadvantages, some hard some soft.

Snake and DDD especially have issues in that department.

Marth... doesn't. He soft counters the majority of the cast, neutral with almost all the rest, hard-counters a select few, and has one counter, MK. It looks like it's not even a 60-40 match-up, it's a 65-35...

That combined with the fact that when there's a nearly omnipresent character (aka MK) and your disadvantages are countered by this character, it's better to have said disadvantages and be able to utterly **** characters then have no disadvantages besides the top tier and simply do well against everyone else.

Marth will be the best character with MK gone, because without counters, he'll be the safest choice period.

 

[AlAxe]

Marth will certainly rise in the tier lists but I don't think he'll be the top tier. Marth wouldn't have any truly bad matchups but he would have many "soft counters" and even matchups. Marth would become the safest choice but not necessarily the best choice.

Also I don't think DDD will screw over some characters as much as people think. At least DDD has solid counters that can be counterpicked. Many of the characters that get counterd by DDD do worse against MK soley because MK has no counters. In the end every character will have a higher chance of doing well without MK in the picture.

 

[Praxis]

Some of the discussion has been rather interesting.

For one thing, yes, there is going to be a G&W/Snake/Dedede triangle, with these three characters at or near the top of a tier list, and other characters judged by their ability to fight these three (rather than their ability to fight Metaknight).

Additionally, when matchups are considered, two characters will strongly stand out:
G&W, who has more advantageous matchups than anyone, and Marth, who has less disadvantageous matches than anyone.

Essentially, Marth becomes the "safe" choice. By learning Marth, you will almost never be in a disadvantageous position, and you can practice your single bad matchup heavily just in case. HOWEVER, Marth's learning curve will prevent a flood of new Marth players. The few good ones will be a significant threat, however, but we're not going to see a Marth horde like we see MK horde. Marth will be a significant factor, and will probably be the character most benefited by the MK bans, but since he seems to be neutral/advantageous across the board, he won't be used as a base to jduge the rest of the tier list.

G&W becomes the "easy" choice. By choosing him, you automatically counter 70% of the cast and will almost always be in an advantageous position. However, you will need to learn a secondary for his 3 bad and possibly 2-3 neutral matchups.

The tier list will be determined based on how people do against Snake and Dedede. Snake takes a hit, because part of the reason he was considered so good was his ability to fight Metaknight without being utterly ***** like everyone else, and while he can still fight G&W, he's got a lot of clearly defined counters.

The tier list will probably be G&W, then either Dedede or Snake, then Marth, then Falco IMO and ROB IMO. Falco's ability to fight Dedede and Snake, and ROB's ability to fight Marth and ROB, will help immensely. Falco will be above ROB only because he doesn't get completely ***** by G&W like ROB does.

Wario might potentially drop. He still counters Snake, but he gets ***** by Dedede and I think he has poor matchups with the rest of the top tier.

Toon Link's ability to counter G&W and fight Snake and Marth evenly will help him quite a bit as well.


I'm imagining:

Top Tier:
G&W
Dedede
Snake
Marth

High Tier:
Falco
ROB
DK
Wario
Ice Climbers (?)
Toon Link
Pit
etc etc


I don't know IC's matchups really well so I'm guestimating. IC should climb though, since MK was a terrible matchup, was he not?

Marth might also be considered the top of high tier instead of bottom of top tier.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

G&W will most likely not be #1. He loses to Snake and goes only even with Dedede

So... you're just striking MK off the top tier and moving everyone else up...

No I don't. Just because I don't move Marth to #1, as you'd love to see it doesn't mean it's that simple. Do you think I'm that stupid?

I know I've explained this to you before THIS DOESN'T work. MK absolutely dominates the metagame, his influence massively changes the tier list, and one of the largest components of the current tier list is "how well you do against MK", because it translates into tournament results and ability to win tournaments.

Quote me whenever I said something else

Snake, DDD, G&W, Falco, ROB, Wario, etc all have concrete disadvantages, some hard some soft.

Old news

Snake and DDD especially have issues in that department.

#

And?

Marth... doesn't. He soft counters the majority of the cast, neutral with almost all the rest, hard-counters a select few, and has one counter, MK. It looks like it's not even a 60-40 match-up, it's a 65-35...

Says who? The Marth boards? Marth still has no particular advantage over other top tier characters. He also has an unpleasant match-tp vs Dedede and Snake (lol Marth boards say it's 55:45 but it's rather 40:60)

That combined with the fact that when there's a nearly omnipresent character (aka MK) and your disadvantages are countered by this character, it's better to have said disadvantages and be able to utterly **** characters then have no disadvantages besides the top tier and simply do well against everyone else.

Marth does not well against everyone else

Marth will be the best character with MK gone, because without counters, he'll be the safest choice period.

No

In a nutshell: You said my opinions are wrong because yours is better. I'm amazed

 

[ThaRoy]

I think we'll see Snake, D3, and Game at the head of the results, but it'll be pretty diverse in the middle. So say you have a 100 man tourney... The top 10 would be Snake, D3, and Game and then after that more variety.

Many characters have a sudden advantage gameplay wise, and thus, good players with decent characters will get better results.

^_^

 

[Remzi]

The three at the top will undoubtedly be Snake, GW, and Dedede in some order. That will probably make up top tier. Then at high we'll have Falco, ROB, Marth, DK, etc.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

K, so this will be the complete top + high tier, IMO. Characters in brackets are too close to make a difference.

Top:

(Snake, Dedede, GaW) Falco (Marth, ROB, Wario)

High:

(Donkey Kong, Pikachu, Lucario) Diddy Kong (Wolf, Pit, Kirby) (Ice Climbers, Olimar, Toon Link)

...

I can imagine, that it looks like this. I don't care what anybody says about Marths match-up's. I have experience in this regard and I'm certain that Snake / Dedede > him, so stop telling me, he'll ever be #1

 

[Praxis]

K, so this will be the complete top + high tier, IMO. Characters in brackets are too close to make a difference.

Top:

(Snake, Dedede, GaW) Falco (Marth, ROB, Wario)

High:

(Donkey Kong, Pikachu, Lucario) Diddy Kong (Wolf, Pit, Kirby) (Ice Climbers, Olimar, Toon Link)

...

I can imagine, that it looks like this. I don't care what anybody says about Marths match-up's. I have experience in this regard and I'm certain that Snake / Dedede > him, so stop telling me, he'll ever be #1

Marth certainly won't be #1. I think he'll be a significant force because of his lack of bad matchups, but all of the top/high characters will go even with him (except G&W, who he counters, and ROB, who counters him), so he'll never be the best pick either.

I'm curious why you put Falco above Marth though.

Also, I think Lucario's a bit overrated. He's considered high tier almost entirely because Azen is too freaking good. What other Lucario's place at major tourneys? I'm pretty sure the answer is none or very few. He's certainly a good character though.

But post MK? Lucario thrives because he has a decent matchup on MK. With the top character in the game being G&W, and G&W likely undergoing a surge of popularity as the easiest character to pick up post-MK, Lucario's going to be in trouble, because G&W utterly destroys Lucario.

G&W will most likely not be #1. He loses to Snake and goes only even with Dedede

I'm pretty sure G&W has an advantage on DDD, even if only slight.

Regardless, Snake, Toon Link, and Marth are his ONLY bad matchups. G&W has more advantaged matchups than any character in the game, and has the least amount of neutral matchups as well. Dedede has a lot more even matchups.

G&W might be in the weakest position in the triangle, but he's the easiest to learn of the three and destroys the rest of the cast so much better. And Snake only has a slight advantage on G&W.

So, Snake has a slight advantage on G&W and DDD has a slight disadvantage or goes even. Doesn't seem bad for him- and then you don't have to worry about nearly the entirety of the rest of the cast, while Dedede has a few neutral matchups even from the mid tier. Just ask Peach.

 

[Steel]

I'd like to ask you edit some of the Marth parts. He goes even with ROB, definitely not a counter in any way.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

praxis, I'll give you some answers.

Falco is above Marth since he doesn well vs Dedede and Snake both #1, something Marth doesn't. He also destroys most opponents harder than Marth ever could.

ROB is indeed not a Marth counter but I consider Dedede and Snake as 40:60 match-up in their favour (vs Marth). GaWs worst match-up's are 40:60 (Snake and Marth) but he goes even with Dedede and DK. Otherwise he pwns a lot. And no: he doesn't lose to TL

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^Is it possible that you're just being biased against Marth, considering that you're disagreeing with the entire Marth boards, who are more analytical in matchup discussions than any other board!

Just sayin', the Marth board knows their ****. Snake is 45:55 and DDD is 45:55 (though I think the DDD one is being rediscussed)

And where the hell are you getting your G&W matchups from? The G&W boards themselves have Toon Link listed as 6-4 Toon Link's favor. Is this an old matchup chart or something?
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=174763

If it is, where is your most recent one?

 

[Steel]

We are rediscussing it, but we edited the ratio before the thread was bumped (was 50:50 before). We will probably still come to 45:55.

 

[Praxis]

praxis, I'll give you some answers.

Falco is above Marth since he doesn well vs Dedede and Snake both #1, something Marth doesn't. He also destroys most opponents harder than Marth ever could.

ROB is indeed not a Marth counter but I consider Dedede and Snake as 40:60 match-up in their favour (vs Marth). GaWs worst match-up's are 40:60 (Snake and Marth) but he goes even with Dedede and DK. Otherwise he pwns a lot. And no: he doesn't lose to TL

Toon Link ***** the crap out of Game & Watch! His entire moveset is designed to be as bothersome as possible to him. G&W doesn't have a good counter to projectiles, but his bucket lets him not get camped usually- instead, Toon Link has THREE projectiles, all of which cannot be bucketed.

Further, Toon Link is one of the only four characters in the game with a good answer to Game & Watch's Bair (those four answers being: Metaknight's up-B, Donkey Kong's bpunch w/super armor frames to absorb the bair hit, Marth's counter, and Toon Link's bombs).

His tether grab lets him shield G&W's attacks and still be within range to grab him afterwards during the lag he has afterwards. And his usmash kills G&W absurdly fast.

Does Dedede go even with G&W? I consider it 55:45 in G&W's favor (very slight advantage to G&W).

G&W will most likely not be #1. He loses to Snake and goes only even with Dedede

But he DOES have the advantage on 70% of the cast and is really easy to pick up and use. Even IF he goes even with Dedede (and I think it's slightly in his favor), he counters more characters than anyone else and has the least amount of neutral matchups in the game outside of MK.

I'm fairly sure he'd be top. 3 bad matchups and 2-3 neutrals is better than Dedede IIRC (though, perhaps you can enlighten me on Dedede's bad matchups?).

 

[~ Gheb ~]

The GaW match-up thread is outdated. They also have Marth, Snake and MK as neutral match-ups so you shouldn't trust it too much. Especially since it doesn't get updated too often. GaWs worst match-ups are: Snake, MK, Marth. Period

Dededes bad match-ups are afaik: Pikachu, Zamus, Falco, Olimar. They are all underused and will continue to do so even with MK gone, except Pikachu, who will be much more viable. Dededes worst match-up in the the current top tier is Falco. But Dedede destroys Wario and DK plus wins against Snake, ROB and god knows who else. (Imo Marth too but nobody cares about thwt)

@Dark Sonic

I'm often debating on the Math match-up boards myself. And I'm certainly not more biased against him, than the Marth players are in favour of him. I play Marth myself as a 2nd (I have a lot of 2nds....) and I have my own experiences, which mean more to me than some ppl agreeing on Marth having the advantage. None of the ppl from the Marth boards are playing on the highest lvl of the game and the last word on match-up isn't spoken yet.

 

[Dark Sonic]

@Dark Sonic

I'm often debating on the Math match-up boards myself. And I'm certainly not more biased against him, than the Marth players are in favour of him. I play Marth myself as a 2nd (I have a lot of 2nds....) and I have my own experiences, which mean more to me than some ppl agreeing on Marth having the advantage. None of the ppl from the Marth boards are playing on the highest lvl of the game and the last word on match-up isn't spoken yet.

1.As we like to say in Fire Emblem discussions....Personal experience means nothing.


2. Says who? You? Emblem Lord places high all the time! (I don't know about the others since I haven't personally seen their tournament placings). But guess what? You don't even have to play the character in order to have an accurate matchup discussion, you just need to have a thourough understanding of both character's options (it does help if you play the character, but it's not a requirement).

3.What are you using to refer to G&W's matchups then? Your own personal opinion with no debate whatsoever? If there is no accurate matchup chart for G&W, then what do you have to back up your matchup claims.

4.Unless the Marth matchups get changed, Marth will have a 45:55 against Snake and DDD and that's it. Emblem Lord is a logical person. He'll listen to reasoning and it will get changed if it really needs to be (hell, we just changed MK from 40:60 to 35:65!). But I (and most others) am going to trust the Marth boards view as a whole on Marth's matchups over your individual views

 

[~ Gheb ~]

1.As we like to say in Fire Emblem discussions....Personal experience means nothing. HRnut just went in there talking about Marth getting shield grabbed. What does that mean? That HRnut's spacing is not perfect and it is affecting his views on the Marth vs DDD matchup. Marth getting shieldgrabbed is not a valid point to bring up, because it shouldn't be happening.

It shouldn't be happening. It does happen. On the paper things always look different. But I should think we are beyond the "on the paper" phase. In real life things are differenet. Mistakes happen. And they do in its own way affect match-up's. Because Dedede can afford to make mistakes more than Marth can. Marth makes a spacing mistakes and he get's grabbed (which means +19%...1 pummel + bthrow). Dedede makes a mistake, when ftilt spacing and what happens? Marths DS still doesn't punish him and neither does the DB. I posted exactly the same on the Marth boards. HRnuts experience alone means nothing. My experience alone means nothing. Bengals experience alone means nothing. But now we are already 3 ppl and we're not alone with that experience, so you can't just say that my stuff comes outs nowhere.

2. Says who? You? Emblem Lord places high all the time! (I don't know about the others since I haven't personally seen their tournament placings).

...I'd like to see some of the results here. All of the time? How many tournaments did he take part? Were the opponents good?

But guess what? You don't even have to play the character in order to have an accurate matchup discussion, you just need to have a thourough understanding of both character's options (it does help if you play the character, but it's not a requirement).

There's no better way to get that understanding than from playing.

 

[HRNUT (Honey Roasted)]

the thing is if you get in close you're most likely gonna get shield grabbed and thats a free 25% and if i fight a D3 at gigs i'll be sure to use marth and see what happens but i've spaced alot when it comes to that match up and i always get f-tilted or grabbed even with retreating Fairs, it not even at all, D3 has an obvious advantage and its annoying to fight him, when all he has to do is grab u until you reach 100%

 

[Deleted member]

Does Dedede go even with G&W? I consider it 55:45 in G&W's favor (very slight advantage to G&W).

Yes. something like that.

My friend's G&W gives me hell in every single match we play (me as D3), but I've started dominating him lately. When we were both starting out, he was ****** me every single time.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

3.What are you using to refer to G&W's matchups then? Your own personal opinion with no debate whatsoever? If there is no accurate matchup chart for G&W, then what do you have to back up your matchup claims.

I lurk around in the forums and actually read, what real good players say. And if Hylian and Needle of Juntah say, that MK, Marth and Snake are bad match-up and that TL isn't and that DDD vs GnW = 50:%0 then I believe it more, than OBM, who wrote that stuff months ago, without even asking other pro players about their experience. The last match-up they did was Wario. DMG and others claimed it to be neutral. OBM (who runs the match-up thread) just didn't give a fukc and gave it 60:40 to gnw

Seriously. Lurk around to see the oppinion of the community rather than just some match-up threads.

4.Unless the Marth matchups get changed, Marth will have a 45:55 against Snake and DDD and that's it. Emblem Lord is a logical person. He'll listen to reasoning and it will get changed if it really needs to be (hell, we just changed MK from 40:60 to 35:65!). But I (and most others) am going to trust the Marth boards view as a whole on Marth's matchups over your individual views

EL is just one man. And so is everybody else. He's a logical person but so am I. EL knows me well enough by now, to know that I don't just write any BS. He doesn't have absolute knowledge over the game, no matter how well he does in tournaments, no matter how ppl follow him. He actually said himself (in the MK-ban thread), that ppl should stop blindly listen to him (and other elitists) but get their own point of view. I did so. I don't care if he thinks I'm right or not. I have no influence on it. If he thinks I'm wrong there's nothing I can do about it. But I'm not the only one who gives Dedede and Snake the nod.

I like Bengals attitude and I must say I dislike yours. You just trust everything you read on every match-up thread and assume they "are right", rather than get your own experience (no offence, I might be wrong here but I've never seen you debating any match-up's unless they are related to Sonic). Why do you think that all Marth match-up's are correct? BEcause EL said so? How about getting actual experience on that match-up yourself and get your own point of view?

 

[Dark Sonic]

It shouldn't be happening. It does happen. On the paper things always look different. But I should think we are beyond the "on the paper" phase. In real life things are differenet. Mistakes happen. And they do in its own way affect match-up's. Because Dedede can afford to make mistakes more than Marth can. Marth makes a spacing mistakes and he get's grabbed (which means +19%...1 pummel + bthrow). Dedede makes a mistake, when ftilt spacing and what happens? Marths DS still doesn't punish him and neither does the DB. I posted exactly the same on the Marth boards. HRnuts experience alone means nothing. My experience alone means nothing. Bengals experience alone means nothing. But now we are already 3 ppl and we're not alone with that experience, so you can't just say that my stuff comes outs nowhere.

I've already read that arguement, and it's just bad.

Marth makes a spacing mistake and gets punished? Well duh, considering Marth's game relies completely on spacing well in the first place. That's not the kind of mistake that good Marth players will be making (especially against DDD, who isn't that hard to space against).

Your argument is bad because that's not actually a common mistake at high level play. It's the equivalent of saying "well, if Fox misses an L-cancel he gets shield grabbed and chaingrabbed to death."

...I'd like to see some of the results here. All of the time? How many tournaments did he take part? Were the opponents good?

If Ankoku's thread was still up I'd point them out, but I guess he might tell me what tournament's he's been to if I ask

There's no better way to get that understanding than from playing.

And yet you can have a thourough knowledge of how a character works, by simply playing against them, and knowing what each character's options are.

Getting past DDD's f-tilt is not hard, nor is getting past Waddledee spam. Once you get in that range Marth will just be camping fairs and d-tilts, all while he's out of your grab range. Marth has one of the best pressure games in brawl (aside from MK lol), and can rack some serious damage just by constantly putting you into guessing game situations (none of which hurt Marth.) DDD's saving grace is that he takes forever to kill and has a great gimping game that is easily set up by the chain grab, but really that's all you've got. You're talk about Marth getting shield grabbed does not apply to matchup discussions, because we assume that they are high level players, and they're not going to mess up something as fundemental as spacing attacks.

 

[Steel]

Gheb you're relying on personal experiences. That's now how you discuss a match up. I could just say "well the fox i played can get inside Marth's sword really easy cus he's fast so it must be Fox adv."

Is there anything to back up my statement than perhaps the Fox was just a better player than me? Maybe I was playing the match up wrong? Maybe my marth isn't that good so i got owned? etc.

 

[Dark Sonic]

I lurk around in the forums and actually read, what real good players say. And if Hylian and Needle of Juntah say, that MK, Marth and Snake are bad match-up and that TL isn't and that DDD vs GnW = 50:%0 then I believe it more, than OBM, who wrote that stuff months ago, without even asking other pro players about their experience. The last match-up they did was Wario. DMG and others claimed it to be neutral. OBM (who runs the match-up thread) just didn't give a fukc and gave it 60:40 to gnw

Seriously. Lurk around to see the oppinion of the community rather than just some match-up threads.

I don't play G&W, so the first thing I turn to is the matchup thread. If the matchup thread is wrong, then it should simply be fixed, instead of always telling people "the matchup thread is wrong".

EL is just one man.

He is one man that I often agree with after listening to the arguements.

He doesn't have absolute knowledge over the game, no matter how well he does in tournaments, no matter how ppl follow him.

I never said that. I was simply refuting your claim that none of the Marth players in the matchup discussions play Marth at the highest level (why did you even make such a claim.)

He actually said himself (in the MK-ban thread), that ppl should stop blindly listen to him (and other elitists) but get their own point of view.

I did get my own point of view. And my point of view was that his arguement was better than yours.

I did so. I don't care if he thinks I'm right or not. I have no influence on it. If he thinks I'm wrong there's nothing I can do about it. But I'm not the only one who gives Dedede and Snake the nod.

In case you didn't notice, he also gave Snake and DDD the nod. They are not neutral matchups, but they are also certainly not Marth "counters"

I like Bengals attitude and I must say I dislike yours. You just trust everything you read on every match-up thread and assume they "are right", rather than get your own experience (no offence, I might be wrong here but I've never seen you debating any match-up's unless they are related to Sonic). Why do you think that all Marth match-up's are correct? BEcause EL said so? How about getting actual experience on that match-up yourself and get your own point of view?

Or how about you don't assume that I'm only agreeing with them because Emblem Lord says so. I'm agreeing with the matchups because nobody has provided evidence to show that they are wrong. My point of view is that Emblem Lord's explinations for Marth's matchups are the most logical, so I agree with them. You talked about Marth not being able to make spacing mistakes while DDD can, which quite frankly I don't care about since neither player should be making spacing mistakes.

And the only reason I even bother arguing Sonic matchups is because people say stuff about Sonic that is flat out untrue (Sonic is Light?!) Other than that I trust what the other matchup boards say until I am met with some oposition (whether it be me personally disagreeing with a matchup or someone of a high calibur telling me it's wrong). Obviously you're saying that the G&W boards are wrong on their matchups, which is unfortunately due to information being passed along very inefficiently (considering the matchup thread was posted in two days ago, and you're saying that it's been wrong for months). If the G&W community does not agree with the matchups in that thread, then they simply need to make a new matchup thread with matchup ratios that they do agree on, so that people can use it as an accurate reference.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I've already read that arguement, and it's just bad.

Marth makes a spacing mistake and gets punished? Well duh, considering Marth's game relies completely on spacing well in the first place. That's not the kind of mistake that good Marth players will be making

Mistakes happen. A good Wolf can shine through everything and thus never loses. That doesn't happen.

(especially against DDD, who isn't that hard to space against).

That just what i was referrig to. You should get a little experience on that match-up. To say "it's easy to space against Dedede" is like the most stpid thing I've ever heard.

Your argument is bad because that's not actually a common mistake at high level play.

It does happen. No player is perfect. DDD can capotalize more on Marths mistakes. Marth can't capitalize on DDDs mistakes as well.

It's the equivalent of saying "well, if Fox misses an L-cancel he gets shield grabbed and chaingrabbed to death."

No it's not. The opponent can't influence whether you suceed in WDashing. But he does influence your spacing.

If Ankoku's thread was still up I'd point them out, but I guess he might tell me what tournament's he's been to if I ask

On that I occasion I could've shown you Hrnuts tourney results: top 10 placings in Florida.
And guess what? He thinks it's in Dededes favour (of course, his experience means nothing, since he's no SBR member)

And yet you can have a thourough knowledge of how a character works, by simply playing against them, and knowing what each character's options are.

You get to know this options better by playing the match yourself.

Getting past DDD's f-tilt is not hard, nor is getting past Waddledee spam.

proof? Marth has no move that beats DDDs ftilt

Once you get in that range Marth will just be camping fairs and d-tilts, all while he's out of your grab range.

Yeah, I forgot DDD can't move, can't use dtilt, can't shield, blah...

Marth has one of the best pressure games in brawl (aside from MK lol), and can rack some serious damage just by constantly putting you into guessing game situations

Explain closer pl0x

(none of which hurt Marth.)

I could easily proof you wrong if you would explain closer

DDD's saving grace is that he takes forever to kill and has a great gimping game that is easily set up by the chain grab, but really that's all you've got.

He can punish poor spacing with +19% grabs. He can outcamp Marth, his ftilt outspaces Marth, he can KO Marth was easier, he ...

You're talk about Marth getting shield grabbed does not apply to matchup discussions, because we assume that they are high level players, and they're not going to mess up something as fundemental as spacing attacks.

Kay, show me one Marth player, who never gets punished, who never makes a spacing mistake

kthxbai

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Steel2nd, did you read what I just said? I'm Not the only one, who think Dedede has the advantage. Bengals and Hrnut agree with me. That's 3 ppl as far as I know, that's "collective experience" and not "individutal" experience

I don't play G&W, so the first thing I turn to is the matchup thread. If the matchup thread is wrong, then it should simply be fixed, instead of always telling people "the matchup thread is wrong".

Tell that OBM, not me. I'm not in charge.

He is one man that I often agree with after listening to the arguements.

Why? Don't you question what he says? Do you always think he' right? Why do you think so? Could he not be wrong?

I never said that. I was simply refuting your claim that none of the Marth players in the matchup discussions play Marth at the highest level (why did you even make such a claim.)

They don't. EL doesn't play on the highest level. He's certainly better than I am but when I think of the best, the likes of Neo and Roy_R come to my mind not EL

I did get my own point of view. And my point of view was that his arguement was better than yours.

What was his argument?

In case you didn't notice, he also gave Snake and DDD the nod. They are not neutral matchups, but they are also certainly not Marth "counters"

45:55 = neutral match-up

Or how about you don't assume that I'm only agreeing with them because Emblem Lord says so. I'm agreeing with the matchups because nobody has provided evidence to show that they are wrong.

I did. You just said it was "bad" without any great reasons. Why don't you think about what I said or try it out IRL? Are my arguments not worth being thought about?

My point of view is that Emblem Lord's explinations for Marth's matchups are the most logical, so I agree with them.

Despite not having it tried out IRL, questioned it whether there could be something wrong? Oh I forgot, jis arguments are flawless of course

You talked about Marth not being able to make spacing mistakes while DDD can, which quite frankly I don't care about since neither player should be making spacing mistakes.

If that's the case DDD wins again as ftilt outranges everything Marth has.

And the only reason I even bother arguing Sonic matchups is because people say stuff about Sonic that is flat out untrue (Sonic is Light?!) Other than that I trust what the other matchup boards say until I am met with some oposition (whether it be me personally disagreeing with a matchup or someone of a high calibur telling me it's wrong). Obviously you're saying that the G&W boards are wrong on their matchups, which is unfortunately due to information being passed along very inefficiently (considering the matchup thread was posted in two days ago, and you're saying that it's been wrong for months). If the G&W community does not agree with the matchups in that thread, then they simply need to make a new matchup thread with matchup ratios that they do agree on, so that people can use it as an accurate reference.[/QUOTE]

Tell that to the GnW boards

 

[Dark Sonic]

Mistakes happen. A good Wolf can shine through everything and thus never loses. That doesn't happen.

Having human reaction time=/=making a mistake.

That just what i was referrig to. You should get a little experience on that match-up. To say "it's easy to space against Dedede" is like the most stpid thing I've ever heard.

DDD will be f-tilting or throwing waddledees to try to keep Marth out right? Marth has simple answers to both (shield and walk foward). This is not hard. Once inside, DDD's options become severely limited and Marth is in full control of his spacing (as in, DDD has nothing left to screw up Marth's spacing himself, so any errors in Marth's spacing is completely the Marth players fault)

It does happen. No player is perfect. DDD can capotalize more on Marths mistakes. Marth can't capitalize on DDDs mistakes as well.

But Marth can get damage on DDD even when the DDD player doesn't mess up, the the less mistakes Marth makes (as in, the better he is), regardless of how good the DDD is, the more even the match gets.

No it's not. The opponent can't influence whether you suceed in WDashing. But he does influence your spacing.

Explain how DDD is going to influence the Marth player's spacing, when he is focusing on shielding and spotdodgeing in an attempt to simply get away from the Marth.

On that I occasion I could've shown you Hrnuts tourney results: top 10 placings in Florida.
And guess what? He thinks it's in Dededes favour (of course, his experience means nothing, since he's no SBR member)

Emblem Lord placing well is not the reason that I agree with him. You said that none of the Marth players in the discussion placed high. I disagreed.

You get to know this options better by playing the match yourself.

I'm not a perfect Marth player and my opinion would simply be scewed.

proof? Marth has no move that beats DDDs ftilt

Shield->walk foward during tilt lag->profit.

or.

Shorthop airdodge over it->land->profit.

Yeah, I forgot DDD can't move, can't use dtilt, can't shield, blah...

D-tilt doesn't reach, shielding puts you in a guessing game, and moving isn't exactly fast enough to avoid the attack.

Explain closer pl0x

D-tilt or fair will force you to shield. Now he's put you into a guessing game.

If you roll behind him-he DBs you on reaction
If you spotdodge-he DBs you on reaction
If you continue to shield-he continues until your shield is too small to protect you
If you try to grab-he's out of your range
If you try to attack-he's out of range of everything but f-tilt, which is too slow and will get beat by the attack
So the only option where he even needs to actually predict you is rolling away. If he starts a dash before you roll he can reach you in time to DB. Of course if he guesses wrong he get's punished. Other than that, all of your other options can be covered on reaction.

That sir, is a shield pressure game with almost no holes (the hole being you rolling away, but if he predicts that he can still punish you).

I could easily proof you wrong if you would explain closer

Just did

He can punish poor spacing with +19% grabs. He can outcamp Marth, his ftilt outspaces Marth, he can KO Marth was easier, he ...

So don't have poor spacing. Duh. But seriously, how often do you expect Marths to make these mistakes? I mean, no, they are not going to space perfectly 100% of the time, but is it unreasonable to expect good Marths to actually have good spacing (considering that's the most defining feature of a good Marth)?

Kay, show me one Marth player, who never gets punished, who never makes a spacing mistake

kthxbai

Never? No, I can't give you an example, because humans do make mistakes. Pros miss L-cancels, ect. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iby0D5PkMDo

Should this affect Matchup discussions? No, because it's the result of being a poor player (yes, player skill fluctuates!), not a factor of the matchup.

 

[Steel]

And that matters? Why are we to take your opinion and personal experiences as truth? That's three people vs basically everyone else on the Marth boards + others. Dedede boards also agree this match up is even or very close to even. How do we know you aren't playing better players than you and/or don't play the match up properly?

You're being anti-theory in a thread that basically relies on theory. Heck, it has theory in the title. Match up discussions are based on theory.

You can't just watch two people fight and then determine which character is better.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Why? Don't you question what he says? Do you always think he' right? Why do you think so? Could he not be wrong?

I question what everyone says. It's just that after questioning I often agree with him.

45:55 = neutral match-up

Not in my eyes. See, that's something I disagree with EL on right there.

I did. You just said it was "bad" without any great reasons. Why don't you think about what I said or try it out IRL? Are my arguments not worth being thought about?

I read it, I didn't agree with it, so EL's point was still valid. Of course, this is me forming my own opinion after reading what both sides have to say.

"DDD punishes mistakes harder than Marth," is not something that I see as being that important, because neither player should be making "mistakes." They are supposed to just be out reading each other, and working with what their character has to shut down the other character.

Despite not having it tried out IRL, questioned it whether there could be something wrong? Oh I forgot, jis arguments are flawless of course

I haven't tried jumping off of a cliff IRL to see if "you will die" is a wrong assumption. I don't have to try out everything in real life to make conclusions. I made conclusions on the matchup based on the information presented.

If that's the case DDD wins again as ftilt outranges everything Marth has.

Marth outspeeds his f-tilt, and can easily just shield it on reaction as well (human reaction time is more than enough to accomplish this)

Tell that to the GnW boards

It's not my problem if they're flaunting around false information. It's unfortunate that I can't use their information in discussions, but considering that I do not plan on actually playing game and watch, it really doesn't affect me that much.

 

[momochuu]

I was actually thinking of something like this not too long ago. Like how much a 3 or 4 month MK ban would change the metagame.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

And that matters? Why are we to take your opinion and personal experiences as truth? That's three people vs basically everyone else on the Marth boards + others. Dedede boards also agree this match up is even or very close to even. How do we know you aren't playing better players than you and/or don't play the match up properly?

You're being anti-theory in a thread that basically relies on theory. Heck, it has theory in the title. Match up discussions are based on theory.

You can't just watch two people fight and then determine which character is better.

In theory Wolf can shine through everything, that means he has a 100:0 match-up vs everyone. Perfect.

C WHA_T I DID THAR?!?!?!!11oneone

 

[Roy_R]

I think DDD has a little advantage.

 

[Steel]

In theory Wolf can shine through everything, that means he has a 100:0 match-up vs everyone. Perfect.

C WHA_T I DID THAR?!?!?!!11oneone

i c wut u did

But we're still talking about things within human limitations.

And for the record 55:45 isn't neutral, or else we'd just say 50:50 >_>

 

[Neb]

Toon Link ***** the crap out of Game & Watch! His entire moveset is designed to be as bothersome as possible to him. G&W doesn't have a good counter to projectiles, but his bucket lets him not get camped usually- instead, Toon Link has THREE projectiles, all of which cannot be bucketed.

Further, Toon Link is one of the only four characters in the game with a good answer to Game & Watch's Bair (those four answers being: Metaknight's up-B, Donkey Kong's bpunch w/super armor frames to absorb the bair hit, Marth's counter, and Toon Link's bombs).

His tether grab lets him shield G&W's attacks and still be within range to grab him afterwards during the lag he has afterwards. And his usmash kills G&W absurdly fast.

TL does not **** G&W.

|Projectiles
Just because he can't bucket them, doesn't mean he doesn't have counter options.
Just like Marth's fanning, G&W's high priority moveset does good in neutralizing TL's projectile game, to an extent.

• Arrows- All G&W's moves cancel it.
• Bombs- Uair, Upb, Shield, and Chef do good in ridding the bombs.
  TL's explosives are nowhere near as troublesome as Snake's shield-dropped grenades. And since TL is light, swapping bomb recoil for every turtle approach is going to rack up some damage. A good G&W won't be so transparent with their bairs.
• Boomerang- All G&W's moves cancel it.

|Everything Else

• The only real thing TL has is zair (*****) and tether grab.
• If the tether grab misses, that's punishment.
• TL is out-prioritized on ground and air, with the exception of one or two moves.
• His recovery is easy to gimp, while G&W's is nearly impossible.

Etc, everything else can be spaced pretty well since Toon's range is pretty weak, being prepubescent and all, lol. If he camps with projectiles, G&W has priority barriers. And you said usmash kills G&W early, well all G&W's smashes kill TL early, :/.

 

[Collective of Bears]

In theory Wolf can shine through everything, that means he has a 100:0 match-up vs everyone. Perfect.

C WHA_T I DID THAR?!?!?!!11oneone

Sigh... If only...

Good thread. I'd say with the removal of MK, The Heavies would get a big boost, since MK is generally their worst matchup. I could see DDD becoming #1 and DK getting bumped up to top. Hell, IMO, it might not be too crazy to see Ganondorf jump up a space or two.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

i c wut u did

But we're still talking about things within human limitations.

I think making a mistake is very well within human limitations

And for the record 55:45 isn't neutral, or else we'd just say 50:50 >_>

That's funny. PPl will always refer to it, however they like. If we talk about a post MK Marth ppl say "oh Marth has no disadvantage". What? So 45:55 is no disadvantage? But it's not neutral either? It's both. You just name it differently according to the situation

Edit @ Dark Sonic

I have no intention to debate this any further. It just leads nowhere. You say "I agree with EL because he's right." Iask you "Why is he right? Why don't you question what he says?". And you say "because he's right." As you can see, debating like this is pointless. You got my point now, of course it's not even worth to be looked at closer, since I'm no elitist but whatever...

 

[Steel]

If MK is gone he has two very slight disadvantages with Snake and Dedede. People will say whatever they want, but this is how we (marth community) refer to it.

Of course mistakes will happen >_> If marth makes a mistake in spacing he may be shield grabbed. But Marth is a much faster attacker and can stay on D3 once inside his ftilt range and use his sword to zone him. D3 will make mistakes too, but neither will make too many mistakes because we are speaking of two top level players here.

 

[Pompi]

id also see characters like luigi moving up , considering mk is his hardest matchup , lets return to the original topic do you really think mk is hurting this game so much as to be banned?

 

[Wolfandike]

Gheb Your sexy.