• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Competitive Scene Without Metaknight- Theorizing

Status
Not open for further replies.

S.R. XXVII

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 20, 2007
Messages
647
Location
D-Block, Double R, NY
This is good. Really good. I agree with it.

I recently played my friend, who has never touched a smash game in his life (and was under the influence at the moment). He picked Metaknight, and I could believe the trouble I was having! He pick Sonic the next round, and I beat him with barely a scratch, but picked Meta again after, and I had the same amount of trouble again. I beat him, but really, someone who has never played the game should not be that hard to face.
 

Dark Sonic

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 10, 2006
Messages
6,021
Location
Orlando Florida
Lol, the Marth metagame developed pretty quickly, so unless you haven't checked in a while you're probably pretty up to date. Depending on how long its been, you may not know about:

-Grab releases on MK and some others
-DS out of shield is possibly your most reliable kill move (keep tap jump on)
-D-tilt trap still owns
-Marths juggling game is crazy (especially vs snake)

Eh, its hard to do this since I dont know what you've missed... :ohwell:
Yeah I know about all that stuff.

Who can Marth grab release and what does he get? I left like a month and a half ago, so have there been any recent discoveries?
 

Praxis

Smash Hero
BRoomer
Joined
Feb 10, 2008
Messages
6,165
Location
Spokane, WA
Ok, so as a response to the Marth's: I'm not necessarily suggesting there's going to be a billion scrubby Marth's showing up. What I AM suggesting is that Marth is going to do really well post-MK, and be one of the most benefitted characters. If he's too hard for most people to get good at, then so be it. But those that ARE good at him will be in a very important position, and make everyone else nervous, and people are going to have to consider whether or not their character can deal with Marth if they want to win tournaments.


I think there will be a FLOOD of people going to G&W, because, similar to MK, he's the easy-to-use one. Marth's advantage will be the fact that he counters MK, and suddenly, you're going to have tournaments overflowing with your WORST matchup (MK) to tournaments overflowing with your BEST matchup.

Can you see why I would say Marth is positioned to be one of the better characters post-MK? Without MK, Marth will be one of the only bona-fide counters to the best character in the game, one who has only three counters. Hence, Marth will be a very important character.

The noob counterpick to G&W will be Snake, who is easier to learn. Which means G&Ws will develop their time prepping for the more common Snake. Even better for Marth.
 

Remzi

formerly VaBengal
Joined
Apr 20, 2008
Messages
3,398
Location
Fairfax, VA
NNID
Remziz4
3DS FC
0302-1081-8167
The most important one to note would be MK. You have the choice of a free tipper fair or DS. Theres also a small chance of a second grab but I'd advise against going for it.

Marth's best grab releases are on Wario. He can get a free tipper fsmash, tipper uair, DS, and I think usmash.

Both of those characters are hard to grab though, so the uses are obviously quite limited.

There are others, but I cant think of them atm.
 

Tristan_win

Not dead.
Joined
Aug 7, 2006
Messages
3,845
Location
Currently Japan
Praxis you basically took every single idea I had of what the meta game might turn out and explore every point I thought that should be made to such a degree that there's really nothing left for me to say besides

"Good work" ...sadly a thread as good as this one I can see quickly fading away since there's really nothing to discuss outside of other characters users chipping in how the meta knight ban might effect them so this thread will most likely be gone in a day or two by getting overrun by newer garbage threads
 

EdreesesPieces

Smash Bros Before Hos
BRoomer
Joined
Mar 15, 2004
Messages
7,680
Location
confirmed, sending supplies.
NNID
EdreesesPieces
nice post. i generally agree, although I disagree with things like rob countering marth, i think they are even as well. i also think diddy is pretty good against snake.
 

Razmakazi

Smash Champion
Joined
May 30, 2008
Messages
2,446
Location
Hawthorne, CA
Good read Praxis. ;D

the game would definitely be a lot more diverse and fun like this even though I'd end up eating game and watch u smashes and dying at 60%. xD
 

Dark Sonic

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 10, 2006
Messages
6,021
Location
Orlando Florida
nice post. i generally agree, although I disagree with things like rob countering marth, i think they are even as well. i also think diddy is pretty good against snake.
Correction, Rob completely counters bad Marths. This kind of thing will prevent the Marth influx (yay), but still leave high level Marth as a force to be reckoned with (and feared since you'd essentially have to stage counterpick to get any kind of advantage).
 

-Mars-

Smash Hero
Joined
Jul 26, 2007
Messages
6,515
Location
UTAH
This was a great read, very well thought out post. I agree with you on Sheik rising, I may be a little biased because I main the character, but with MK gone a Sheik/Zelda combo will only have one hard counter.........Game & Watch. Not to mention Sheik is already one of the best edgeguarders in Brawl and with MK out of the picture her offstage play will come even more into the forefront.
 

Peregrinus Falconidae

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 14, 2008
Messages
338
Location
Eastern Australia
Well I think this was well written and well researched. Much more interesting than some of those topics saying that MK should be banned cuz blah blah or that everyone will be banned except Falcon.

I totally agree with the thought that if only MK were removed much of the game would become more diverse and then Mid characters I like would actually be able to win, not lose so many times. When you look at tier lists, it feels as if the shadow of MK looms over every other character, forcing them away. So many good players who were extremely good switch to MK. Why? Their character wasn't winning. I for one am very disappointed with such things, and while I agree that we can't say for sure whether MK should be banned or not, I fear that the longer we leave this the further out in front MK will go, leaving everyone else behind.
 

Kitamerby

Smash Hero
Joined
Aug 9, 2007
Messages
5,729
Location
Las Vegas
Lucario usage might go down. Lucario prides himself on doing well against MK and having good matchups against everyone but GnW and Marth (And MK, but he does better than most). :\
 

Emblem Lord

The Legendary Lord
Joined
Aug 11, 2005
Messages
9,720
Location
Scotch Plains, NJ
NNID
ShinEmblemLord
3DS FC
3926-6895-0574
Switch FC
SW-0793-4091-6136
Swear on my life the only reason Lucario places/wins is because he has a 60/40 match-up with MK.

That F-smash and those AS are life savers in that match.
 

Napilopez

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 16, 2008
Messages
1,775
Location
Columbia University, NY
Swear on my life the only reason Lucario places/wins is because he has a 60/40 match-up with MK.

That F-smash and those AS are life savers in that match.
60/40 in MKs favor I'm assuming? i thought MK had no disadvantageuous match-ups.

The metagame is Meta's game. =P I just love saying that for some reason.

Umm. Sonic would go up. But he's goin up anyways =P

I see marth becoming top tier, although personally I think he would become reach top tier even with MK.
 

AlAxe

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 30, 2008
Messages
440
Location
northern CA
Lucario does not have a 60:40 matchup vs. MK. MK has the advantage about 55:45. Even Azen, arguably the best lucarion in the world, now uses MK now at the end of tourneys.
 

Swordplay

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 4, 2008
Messages
1,716
Location
Chicago
If you think about it. Marth has the least amount of bad matchups.

He goes even with half the cast.

that means anybody who was good at brawl and played meta will just go to marth relying on their skill being better than everybody else and almost never having a bad matchup.

Then they just have to find 1 counterpick for snake and a few others. That character will probably be DDD. Chaingrabing is easy to use and learn.
 

Praxis

Smash Hero
BRoomer
Joined
Feb 10, 2008
Messages
6,165
Location
Spokane, WA
If you think about it. Marth has the least amount of bad matchups.

He goes even with half the cast.

that means anybody who was good at brawl and played meta will just go to marth relying on their skill being better than everybody else and almost never having a bad matchup.

Then they just have to find 1 counterpick for snake and a few others. That character will probably be DDD. Chaingrabing is easy to use and learn.
Indeed.

The only problem with this is, going from all advantageous to all neutral matchups means it's a lot more fair for the rest of us and not as easy as they'd expect- and more importantly, Marth is not as easy to use, so it will take them time to adjust.
 

Thinkaman

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Aug 26, 2007
Messages
6,535
Location
Madison, WI
NNID
Thinkaman
3DS FC
1504-5749-3616
I was intending to make this it's own topic... but I might as well just put it here.

We've all read Sirlin's articles and like to throw quotes at each other. His well written case study on Old Sagat is of particular importance. The argument is that it might be beneficial to ban Old Sagat, because the metagame without him will allow significantly more variety.

The problem is not that Old Sagat is too good, because he isn't particularly better than the other "top" characters in the game. The problem is that he destroys the low tiers.

Think back to Melee. If you had to ban a single character from Melee what would it be? Fox is the "best", but most knowledgeable smashers, if they put personal opinions aside, would ban Shiek. Why? Because Fox may be good, but Shiek *destroys* lower tier characters into oblivion. Banning Shiek would make the lower half of the roster more viable. Fox may be better overall, but most characters would rather fight Fox than Marth, Shiek, or Falco! In fact, banning Fox would make Melee's balance worse by increasing the position of the other top tiers! With no Fox, Marth, Shiek, and Peach in particular would see even more play, making it even harder to play most low tier characters.

Now consider Meta Knight. Can you think of a single character whose worst matchup in Meta Knight? DDD and ROB probably, and maybe Mario and Pit, possible Link? Most the character I can think of have DDD, G&W, or Falco as their worst matchup. We all agree that the issue with Meta Knight isn't that he has too big of an advantage against SOME characters, but that he has a small advantage against ALL characters. So what would taking Meta Knight out do?

- DDD and Snake would instantly take Meta Knight's place above everyone else.
- DDD would probably be considered top until his counters proliferated the meta-game.

- Maining Mario, Luigi, DK, Bowser, and Samus would become futile in a world with an increased number of DDDs, much worse than it is now. The lasting damage to their meta-game would leave these character undeveloped.
- More Snakes would make characters with poor approach options even worse than they are now, but it's not as big of a deal as the DDD problem.
- G&W would stay about the same due to more Toon Link players.
- Falco and ROB would increase in popularity and become a popular secondary to fight Snake and DDD. ROB would probably be considered better than Falco.
- Wario would also see less play thanks to more DDD, while Marth and Ice Climbers would see more play thanks to no MK. Lucario would stay about the same.
- Community hatred of the Ice Climbers would rise as they become more common.
- As mentioned previously, more DDDs would reduce DK to "secondary against Snake" status.
- There might be more Diddy Kong play seen, not sure on this one. The changes to other characters have pros and cons for him.
- Pikachu will probably become slightly less viable, though no big change.
- Kirby should become less, due to increased play of his counters.

- Pit will almost certainly become more viable, being much better against the other top tiers than MK.
- Wolf probably won't end up too much better or worse off.
- Toon Link will increase in popularity a good deal.
- I honestly have no idea how Fox or Zamus would be affected. Everything points to something different.
- Olimar will probably become a bit more viable, but not as much as people think.
- Shiek and Zelda will probably stay about the same; they will enjoy more DDDs, but the rest of the changes to the metagame they probably will hate.
- Bowser, Samus, Luigi, and Mario, as stated up higher, will be hurt exponentially by increased number of DDDs.
- Ike will probably be no better or worse off on average. His top tier matchups are still consistently against him with or without MK.
- Peach will probably be more viable.
- Increased Marth play will reduce the viability of Ness and Lucas, especially Lucas.
- Without surprisingly good matchups against the top character, Yoshi and Jigglypuff will drop sharply.
- Pokemon Trainer's viability won't change a bit.
- Link and Sonic will certainly be more viable, but still low tier.
- Captain Falcon and Ganondorf will be slightly worse off than they already are, mainly Ganondorf.

By my count, removing Meta Knight has a positive impact on 12 characters in the game. None of them would change tiers except Toon Link, who will probably go up to High Tier regardless of banning Meta Knight. Meanwhile, I count a negative impact on 15 of the characters in the game. None of these characters should be impacted enough to change tiers either, although I could see it contributing to a bigger picture decline of characters such as Kirby or Luigi if they go down for other reasons too.

That's my 39 cents.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Currently, the meta-game is centred around Meta Knight, so there will obviously be some hiccups at first if a ban is put in place. Brawl will be the better for it, though. If Meta Knight were not banned, we'd eventually see tournaments lined up with him from the final sixteen onwards, which would inevitably lead to the crippling of competition, as most people don't go to tournments expecting to win. It's all about the community.

As I stated at the very start of this thread, it's all about the counterpick system. Meta Knight is broken; he has no counters, he has an at least slight advantage over every character. The consequences of this are already rearing their ugly heads, with no solution in sight.
 

Tristan_win

Not dead.
Joined
Aug 7, 2006
Messages
3,845
Location
Currently Japan
- Shiek and Zelda will probably stay about the same; they will enjoy more DDDs, but the rest of the changes to the metagame they probably will hate.
Actually a good Shiek/Zelda user only has a few bad match ups

Marth
Meta knight
Game and Watch

With meta knight gone we will only really have to worry Game and watch since the Marth match up isn't that steeply in his advantage at all.

Before this thread was made I made a thread disusing the very same term topic as this thread and everyone in the Sheik forum seem to agree a meta knight ban would greatly help sheik tier placement.
 

AndrewCarlson

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 2, 2008
Messages
367
I think Pit is another one of the High Tier characters that could benefit from this. His worst match-up is Meta Knight and (according to the Pit boards) has a slight advantage over Snake and Dedede. He goes even with Falco and R.O.B. Mr. Game & Watch and Marth would still post a threat, but they are smaller disadvantages at least compared to Meta Knight. Pit does pretty well against the rest of the High Tiers, going even (Lucario) or having a small advantage (Donkey Kong and Diddy).
 

~ Gheb ~

Life is just a party
Joined
Jun 27, 2008
Messages
16,916
Location
Europe
Very good Praxis. Here are my thoughts:

Without MK the tiers would perhaps look like this:

1. Snake / Dedede / GnW
2. Falco
3. ROB / Marth / Wario
4. Pikachu / Donkey Kong / Lucario

I didn't do it in a specific order, I just thought that these are the most used characters in tournaments withou MK. Snake / Dedede and GaW are pretty juch tied for the 1st place...Falco is Falco tier (like in Melee). Marth and Wario will be top tier, tied with ROB and DK + Pika will benefit a lot from MK being gone.

I think, that would be a pretty balanced top tier/top of high tier. There are many possible mixes of adv and disadv here, that could make it ver interesting.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
A Donkey Kong mainer with a G&W secondary could be quite popular.
 

feardragon64

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 9, 2008
Messages
2,154
Location
San Francisco
If you think about it. Marth has the least amount of bad matchups.

He goes even with half the cast.

that means anybody who was good at brawl and played meta will just go to marth relying on their skill being better than everybody else and almost never having a bad matchup.

Then they just have to find 1 counterpick for snake and a few others. That character will probably be DDD. Chaingrabing is easy to use and learn.
Marth's learning curve is tough. I agree that a bunch of mk mains will fall over to marth after the ban, but only the people who were good at brawl will actually do well with him. The rest of them are going to fail epicly, and eventually move onto falco, DDD, G&W, etc. Even some good players will move on past Marth to other characters I'm sure.
 

~ Gheb ~

Life is just a party
Joined
Jun 27, 2008
Messages
16,916
Location
Europe
I don't see why ppl who played MK will start to play Marth. Snake, DDD, GaW and Falco are still better characters
 

Browny

Smash Hater
Joined
Mar 22, 2008
Messages
10,416
Location
Video Games
lol... people who drop MK, who only played him to win will go to snake. After all, there IS a reason why hes #2, not #7 or lower lol
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Snake will still be #2 if Meta Knight is banned. Dedede's biggest problem is Meta Knight, Snake's biggest problem is Dedede.
 

Neb

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 19, 2008
Messages
1,810
Location
Melbourne, FL
Okay, TL does not have a big advantage against G&W, and its possibly an even match-up.
TL>G&W was only a true fact the first 3-4 months of Brawl's life.

IMO G&W's only counters are...
-Snake
-Marth

The remaining are neutrals, and advantages.
Don't consider Toon a counter, he's a neutral, something like 55-45 either way.

PS- Tier******, stay away from G&W.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Snake counters G&W?

That's convenient. Without MK, the top three are a triangle.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
And IMO, G&W is above DDD.
G&W beats Dedede, yes, but D3 has that awesome chain grab on most of the cast. I also think that Snake vs. D3 is harder than D3 vs. G&W. G&W vs. Snake is the easiest? Still, a rather convenient triangle of counters.
 

Neb

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 19, 2008
Messages
1,810
Location
Melbourne, FL
G&W vs Snake is in Snake's favor, but not by a lot.
Same goes for Marth, they do have the advantage, but with a 6:4, it goes either way.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
G&W vs Snake is in Snake's favor, but not by a lot.
Same goes for Marth, they do have the advantage, but with a 6:4, it goes either way.
A counter is a counter. :laugh:

The only real disaster matches are D3 and his infinites, and MK vs. the entire low tier.
 

Dark Sonic

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 10, 2006
Messages
6,021
Location
Orlando Florida
G&W vs Snake is in Snake's favor, but not by a lot.
Same goes for Marth, they do have the advantage, but with a 6:4, it goes either way.
The same situation happened with Marth Shiek and Fox (actually, it was even more lenient in that any advantages could be turned by stages, since each was only 55:45 at most).

A triangle of counters is a really good thing (especially since each character in that triangle also has additional counters to watch out for, unlike melee.)
 

Emblem Lord

The Legendary Lord
Joined
Aug 11, 2005
Messages
9,720
Location
Scotch Plains, NJ
NNID
ShinEmblemLord
3DS FC
3926-6895-0574
Switch FC
SW-0793-4091-6136
People do need to be more realistic though.

The characters that benefit the most are Marth, G&W and Dedede.

And don't think that crappy characters won't stop being crap just because MK is gone.

Now instead of MK ****** their sh*t, the other top tiers and high tiers will.
 

Dark Sonic

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 10, 2006
Messages
6,021
Location
Orlando Florida
I'm sure most of the mid tiers wouldn't mind Metaknight being gone though.

And with MK gone Sonic's worst matchup would be like...Game and Watch (realisticly, since Wario and Luigi wouldn't exactly be that popular), but luckily I've got that Marth secondary to take care of that (maybe I'll pick up Falco to handle DDD or something, but that matchups not too bad).

A good choice competitively? No, Sonic will still be low tier.
A viable choice with a secondary? Yes, yes indeed.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom