Competitive Mii Fighter: How this character should be allowed(Custom: Off)

[nodle]

It's not really stupid.

Well no, not really stupid. Just stupid...

The game is programmed to let them have access to all their specials clearly as an exception. Tourney mode even has a separate toggle for Mii Fighters.

Arguing that they are different because of the behavior of an in game menu button, is saying they should be allowed because of the way Nintendo implemented the UI. I don't find this argument appealing. Frankly, the UI of Sm4sh is its most poorly implemented feature. If it convinces people that Miis should be allowed to compete, I guess I'll hold my tongue though.

I do agree that it's a matter of whether we want "custom characters" or not. I feel they add an interesting dynamic to the game since they have unique movesets, and therefore they should be allowed by how they are designed. I've said this many times on this forum, but they aren't broken, they don't cause any burden to TOs or players to implement, and the game supports them with their full movesets from the get-go, why not give it a go?

I agree.

 

[dav3yb]

So, a random thought. I was considering amending a rule set for an upcoming event that would allow any mii fighters, but only using default miis.

Now for the random thought... what if, for customs OFF, we say all mii's are allowed using a default guest mii? this would standardize them a bit, and make it easier for mii's to be allowed in tournament (thinking small steps).

But then, for customs ON, we could have the handful of "optimal mii sizes/weight" available for use. this would potentially give them the added variations that several characters gain when customs are turned on.

 

[Raijinken]

So, a random thought. I was considering amending a rule set for an upcoming event that would allow any mii fighters, but only using default miis.

Now for the random thought... what if, for customs OFF, we say all mii's are allowed using a default guest mii? this would standardize them a bit, and make it easier for mii's to be allowed in tournament (thinking small steps).

But then, for customs ON, we could have the handful of "optimal mii sizes/weight" available for use. this would potentially give them the added variations that several characters gain when customs are turned on.

I'm okay with any Mii implementation, regardless of size, that gives them moveset access. I agree with previous analysis, 1111 is garbage across the board (though I'd actually consider running 1111 Gunner sometimes).

 

[Pegasus Knight]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Arguing that Mii's should be granted access to their full range of specials when other characters don't on the basis of the UI is stupid. If your claim is true and Miis are inherently custom then, with customs off, Miis shouldn't be allowed at all. The only fair way to navigate this question is too simply say that customs should be allowed.

Well, actually, I do support Customs being allowed. I think they should be. It's true there are a few that are harmful to the game and we probably ought to ban those specific moves (a few characters gain fairly easy infinite combos, a few others gain practical ways to stall out the match, etc) and keep the rest.

That said, defending Miis as a matter of user interface came up in large part due to people insisting Miis do have defaults due to one stage in the single player challenge mode, a mode built around forcing you to play in bizarre conditions to see if you can handle it, forcing Miis to 1111 if you pick them on that specific level.

This was seriously a thing that came up. At that point, the overwhelming amount of evidence in favor of "Miis have no true defaults, on a UI level," had to be brought up to shut that line of absolute nonsense down. And you might wonder "well if it was nonsense, why did it need to be refuted?"

Because this is Smashboards. Where if you allow nonsense to take root, it will grow.

EDIT: Responding to a post I missed,

So, a random thought. I was considering amending a rule set for an upcoming event that would allow any mii fighters, but only using default miis

Thank you for speaking with us about Mii tournament rules! That said, I don't quite understand. Can you clarify?

Now for the random thought... what if, for customs OFF, we say all mii's are allowed using a default guest mii? this would standardize them a bit, and make it easier for mii's to be allowed in tournament (thinking small steps).

I still don't understand. Are you saying "generate the Mii Fighter using a Guest Mii provided by the game, thus going with that Guest's automatic height/width values, but once so generated the user may pick any moves they want"? Is this right? If so... I would view this as an unfortunate compromise, but one I would be willing to go along with in the short-term as an experiment to further prove Miis aren't harmful. It's not something I would accept as a permanent rule, but if gradual exploration of Miis is the only way to get them in any proper form I would go along with implementing them gradually.

If you're talking about "Guest Miis only, and 1111 moves only", I am vehemently against this. Several venues already do it and it amounts to basically banning the characters. It effectively adds three completely useless characters to the roster. Brawler has no meaningful kill options on 1111 AND no recovery options. Swordfighter ends up being excessively focused on close combat (which is supposed to be Brawler's gimmick) and is as much a danger to himself as the opponent due to Up-B 1 being 'Aether but actually far, far worse'. Gunner can't actually zone properly on 1111 and is instead tuned to be a very specific counter-build against other projectile-oriented characters... which you will notice are not exactly dominating the meta right now.

None of the Miis were ever designed around the idea of being run as '1111 is their default', unlike the entire rest of the cast. You cannot tell me 1111 is what Sakurai had in mind when he made their move-sets. 1111 makes NO SENSE on them, they have no coherent game-plan when made that way.

No Mii main is seriously going to attend a tournament where the primary format requires them to play a needlessly pointless version of their character, I'm afraid. This isn't posturing or holding our breath until we get what we want. We have tried Guest Size 1111-only Miis and they absolutely, utterly suck. Worse than Zelda. Worse than Duck Hunt. They just do not work on a design level because they were never intended to be played under these sort of restrictions. The rest of the cast was built around 1111, but the Miis were clearly not.

But then, for customs ON, we could have the handful of "optimal mii sizes/weight" available for use. this would potentially give them the added variations that several characters gain when customs are turned on.

This is basically what I want in the Customs Off venue and how the character probably ought to work.

 

[dav3yb]

Well, actually, I do support Customs being allowed. I think they should be. It's true there are a few that are harmful to the game and we probably ought to ban those specific moves (a few characters gain fairly easy infinite combos, a few others gain practical ways to stall out the match, etc) and keep the rest.

That said, defending Miis as a matter of user interface came up in large part due to people insisting Miis do have defaults due to one stage in the single player challenge mode, a mode built around forcing you to play in bizarre conditions to see if you can handle it, forcing Miis to 1111 if you pick them on that specific level.

This was seriously a thing that came up. At that point, the overwhelming amount of evidence in favor of "Miis have no true defaults, on a UI level," had to be brought up to shut that line of absolute nonsense down. And you might wonder "well if it was nonsense, why did it need to be refuted?"

Because this is Smashboards. Where if you allow nonsense to take root, it will grow.

EDIT: Responding to a post I missed,



Thank you for speaking with us about Mii tournament rules! That said, I don't quite understand. Can you clarify?



I still don't understand. Are you saying "generate the Mii Fighter using a Guest Mii provided by the game, thus going with that Guest's automatic height/width values, but once so generated the user may pick any moves they want"? Is this right? If so... I would view this as an unfortunate compromise, but one I would be willing to go along with in the short-term as an experiment to further prove Miis aren't harmful. It's not something I would accept as a permanent rule, but if gradual exploration of Miis is the only way to get them in any proper form I would go along with implementing them gradually.

If you're talking about "Guest Miis only, and 1111 moves only", I am vehemently against this. Several venues already do it and it amounts to basically banning the characters. It effectively adds three completely useless characters to the roster. Brawler has no meaningful kill options on 1111 AND no recovery options. Swordfighter ends up being excessively focused on close combat (which is supposed to be Brawler's gimmick) and is as much a danger to himself as the opponent due to Up-B 1 being 'Aether but actually far, far worse'. Gunner can't actually zone properly on 1111 and is instead tuned to be a very specific counter-build against other projectile-oriented characters... which you will notice are not exactly dominating the meta right now.

None of the Miis were ever designed around the idea of being run as '1111 is their default', unlike the entire rest of the cast. You cannot tell me 1111 is what Sakurai had in mind when he made their move-sets. 1111 makes NO SENSE on them, they have no coherent game-plan when made that way.

No Mii main is seriously going to attend a tournament where the primary format requires them to play a needlessly pointless version of their character, I'm afraid. This isn't posturing or holding our breath until we get what we want. We have tried Guest Size 1111-only Miis and they absolutely, utterly suck. Worse than Zelda. Worse than Duck Hunt. They just do not work on a design level because they were never intended to be played under these sort of restrictions. The rest of the cast was built around 1111, but the Miis were clearly not.



This is basically what I want in the Customs Off venue and how the character probably ought to work.

Yeah, for anything customs OFF, any mii configuration, but only using one of the default guest miis on the system. Where a customs ON, could allow for specific custom mii's (with what would probably need to be a predetermined height /weight, or a few various sets for each type of mii fighter). Currently the rules i have just bans mii's all together, but as little as they would probably be used, id probably like to see them available in some way.

 

[san.]

What does Mii size have to do with customs ON or OFF? Makes no sense to me, other than some kind of bargaining tool. If it's not allowed because of logistics with customs OFF, it shouldn't be allowed due to that reason with customs ON. If different sizes are able to be used, then there's no reason for them not to be available whether it's customs ON or OFF.

 

[dav3yb]

What does Mii size have to do with customs ON or OFF? Makes no sense to me, other than some kind of bargaining tool. If it's not allowed because of logistics with customs OFF, it shouldn't be allowed due to that reason with customs ON. If different sizes are able to be used, then there's no reason for them not to be available whether it's customs ON or OFF.

Again, that was a random thought regarding the fact that we generally have 2 different meta's/rules right now, one that deals with customs on, and the other off.

I think, also, until a more standardized set of Mii's is determined for each type, that they should also be a guest mii.

My personal proposal would be, given that the guest mii's are all dead center of the height/wight ranges, create an additional 8 mii's for each system to be used with mii fighters.

Small/Feather
Small/Middle
Small/Heavy

Average/Light
Average/Heavy

Tall/Feather
Tall/Middle
Tall/Heavy

(using weight classes they generally use for sport fights).

I'm not sure what the "optimal" setup would be for any given mii fighter type, but that would cover the extreme's and median.

 

[san.]

I understand. Optimal setups will be hard to gauge since patches seem to heavily affect Miis each time.

With QR codes, making the miis will be easy for anyone. The mii players themselves will likely transfer anyways lol.


Also, don't mean to derail.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

I don't think pointing out logistical help is 'derailing' when we're talking to a TO, the very sort of person whose attention we want.

So... @ dav3yb , technically this is a step further away from what I would term "proper Mii freedom" from what Evo offered, but it's... a step up from what most mainstream Smash venues are offering at this time. If your original rules were 'ban the Miis outright', and this is where you've arrived at through reading the Mii-related threads recently... thank you. I consider that real progress.

Your proposal of Customs Off = Guest Mii provides the Size and Visuals, but player may freely select moves is not ideal, but it's a step in what I feel is the right direction. If I happened to live in the area where your tournament is, I would show up just to support this decision. I would hope it will go even further toward 'true freedom' later on, but if a venue has gone from 'Ban Miis' to 'We will let you have open move selection but pre-set size and visuals'... okay. I'd be willing to give it a try.

What I'd EVENTUALLY want is 3DS transfers being allowed, but I am very pleased to hear you offering even this version of Mii integration at this time.

So, thank you for considering it. I appreciate this, as a fan of the Miis. It's an improvement! May I offer some advice?

Set some guidelines up front for Mii players. If you're not going to allow 3DS transfers, tell them AHEAD OF TIME to get their affairs in order. Either have them make their Miis on the tournament station before the tournament, or tell them they have 60 seconds per Mii they intend to create, maximum 3 minutes total spent on making Miis (you can actually do it in 30 seconds per Mii if you have a very short name) to make the Miis they need on that station, when they are set to play. Communicate to them up front that you are concerned about 'time logistics' and staying on schedule, so you expect them to study up on the Mii creation menus and get this done as quickly as possible.

Those numbers are examples, but 30-60 seconds per Mii created is realistic. Anything below that is a little too strict, and even 30-60 seconds is less time than many people spend doing 'handwarmer button checks' and mid-set coaching.

Players will probably have no problem with saving time so long as your expectations are made clear in advance.

3 minutes might sound like a lot, but they only need do this once per tournament station and will be good to go from then on. The time expenditure will quickly drop to near-zero once their roster is filled.

 

[T4ylor]

I don't think Mii Maker Miis should be allowed, because they take a decent amount of time to set up and need to be created outside of the game. That said, I don't see why Guest Miis should be banned or have any of their specials restricted.

I'd like to starting using Swordfighter myself, even 1111 if I have to, but there's sadly no point since most/all of the TOs in my area straight up ban them.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

3DS transfer or making the Miis ahead of time can solve the logistical/time concerns on non-Guest Miis.

 

[FSLink]

Well no, not really stupid. Just stupid...


Arguing that they are different because of the behavior of an in game menu button, is saying they should be allowed because of the way Nintendo implemented the UI. I don't find this argument appealing. Frankly, the UI of Sm4sh is its most poorly implemented feature. If it convinces people that Miis should be allowed to compete, I guess I'll hold my tongue though.


I agree.

Just because the UI doesn't make sense in a lot of ways (disorganized, customs not being easily editable through multiplayer menus, etc.), doesn't mean we shouldn't follow it as much as possible. Especially when the alternative is effectively soft-banning Miis.

That said, defending Miis as a matter of user interface came up in large part due to people insisting Miis do have defaults due to one stage in the single player challenge mode, a mode built around forcing you to play in bizarre conditions to see if you can handle it, forcing Miis to 1111 if you pick them on that specific level.

None of the Miis were ever designed around the idea of being run as '1111 is their default', unlike the entire rest of the cast. You cannot tell me 1111 is what Sakurai had in mind when he made their move-sets. 1111 makes NO SENSE on them, they have no coherent game-plan when made that way.

No Mii main is seriously going to attend a tournament where the primary format requires them to play a needlessly pointless version of their character, I'm afraid. This isn't posturing or holding our breath until we get what we want. We have tried Guest Size 1111-only Miis and they absolutely, utterly suck. Worse than Zelda. Worse than Duck Hunt. They just do not work on a design level because they were never intended to be played under these sort of restrictions. The rest of the cast was built around 1111, but the Miis were clearly not.

Thanks for this, this sums up my thoughts as well. In fact, I'd probably use Miis in tournaments more often if I knew the practice I'd put into them wouldn't go to waste because I'm not allowed to use certain specials or because they are sometimes banned (sizes is another issue entirely but I feel they should be allowed at any size until proven to be broken).

Again, that was a random thought regarding the fact that we generally have 2 different meta's/rules right now, one that deals with customs on, and the other off.

I think, also, until a more standardized set of Mii's is determined for each type, that they should also be a guest mii.

My personal proposal would be, given that the guest mii's are all dead center of the height/wight ranges, create an additional 8 mii's for each system to be used with mii fighters.

I like this idea. Have a Mii Fighter project (use the EVO sets as a starting point?) to have the "optimized" ones imported to Wii Us ahead of time, and then have this for anybody who wants to make a Mii with their own moveset, which will likely be very few people and not add much time to a tournament logistically.

 

[TyDye]

I personally believe the "Default Mii fighters, 1111" rule is what we should go by. Why should Mii fighters be the only character with a custom move set? I understand that it is the point of the character but that is with the casual player in mind. Smash was never intended to be a competitive game.

Also to the point of "You should know your opponent." Would Mii players use the same excuse if all other characters were allowed customs? And what about DLC characters? None of which have customs.

Customs can be fun but, I feel have no place in the competitive scene.

 

[ZarroTsu]

I would absolutely embrace custom moves, if it's excuse 5.963-A you're pulling from the grab-bag. Players have no excuse not to learn every matchup in the game, and those that fail to, and further fail to utilize these things, are bad players.

Even if Mii Fighters were intended to be baby's first Mario Party character, if top players are actively afraid of fighting them, they must be doing something right.

But more importantly than the moves themselves or their utility, is whether any player would ever try. A very large portion of the Mii Fighter group have seen the differences in potential from 1111's mish-mash of junk, to actually being able to select your own moveset as intended when creating them (a requirement for playing them). If Miis were restricted to 1111, nobody would play them. Nobody would succeed with them. Whether or not you say "tough ****" to that is frivolous unless you yourself want to play these characters to embrace this meta you've signed off on.

Restricting Miis to 1111 is the same as restricting any arbitrary first digits in any other game, for the sake of some "professional" sounding business excuse to appear "with it" with the "cool and hip" players. It's the same as forcing a pitcher in a baseball game to only throw slow-balls.

Any pitcher worth his salt will want to mix up his game, keep things fresh, keep the batter guessing. Is this fair to the batter? Is this fair to the outfield? The batter doesn't see why the pitcher should be allowed to throw anything but slow-balls, because it's easier for the batter to learn. It's easier for the audience to watch. It's easier for everyone involved. It's less time consuming to wait for the catcher to signal for every throw if the pitcher only has to worry about one arbitrary method of play!


So why shouldn't a pitcher be restricted to only use slow-balls?

 

[wizrad]

I personally believe the "Default Mii fighters, 1111" rule is what we should go by. Why should Mii fighters be the only character with a custom move set? I understand that it is the point of the character but that is with the casual player in mind. Smash was never intended to be a competitive game.

Also to the point of "You should know your opponent." Would Mii players use the same excuse if all other characters were allowed customs? And what about DLC characters? None of which have customs.

Customs can be fun but, I feel have no place in the competitive scene.

This post is so wrong and that it was posted in a dead thread made me angry enough to almost post a long couple of paragraphs tearing apart your reasoning with gratuitous amounts of salty satire. But I'm better than that. I'll just show you why you're wrong.

The main premise behind your argument is that Miis have custom moves. This is wrong. There is no debate. Custom moves are disabled when the custom switch is off. Miis still have whatever moves they want. In addition, Miis are given their own section separate from custom fighters in order to differentiate between the two, although evidently this did not work. I could be done here, but I'll entertain you a little more, just for completion's sake.

You also say you want Miis restricted because no other character can change their moves. Y'know, except Pit, Mario, and Marth. Or the semi clones. And the changes are less significant than switching to a full clone. One move is nothing. Four moves is getting somewhere, but this character still has the same normals, tilts, smashes, aerials, short hop, full hop, double jump, weight, gravity, falling speed, shield, forwards roll, backwards roll, spot dodge, air dodge, height, crouch, walking speed, running speed, air speed, air acceleration, traction, dash, and taunts. And some of those same things are actually groups. Furthermore, players using a set other than the most optimal one is rare. Not only this, but that set is worse. Knowing one set of moves but not the other is like knowing the Mario matchup, but not the Doc one. You might be surprised by a thing or two, but, ultimately, Doc is bad in comparison and won't trouble you. Changing moves is no worse than counterpicking. If you have a problem with counterpicking, that's another debate. But even if this attribute was a bad thing, it still wouldn't warrant restriction. The same reasoning says that Shulk must stay in normal mode, Ryu must never use his strong attacks, Cloud must not break his limit, Bowser must not use tough guy, and Lucario must not use aura based moves (hint: all of his moves are aura based) just because these are unique attributes unavailable in any way to any other character. This is silly and should never happen.

To answer your question: personally, no, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't have to learn every move to be the best. "I don't wanna" isn't an argument against anything, much less an arbitrary rule in a competitive setting. And please don't try to deny that's what you're saying, because it is.

Don't be ignorant. Please. Learn the facts before you say something.

 

[TyDye]

Don't be ignorant. Please. Learn the facts before you say something.

1- I was defending that not knowing the matchup should NOT be an excuse as mentioned by someone else earlier in this thread.

2- I posted in a "Dead thread" to state my opinion on the matter. Since it is not really a dead topic in the competitive scene.

3- That is exactly what your ENTIRE response to my post was. Opinion. There was nothing ignorant about what I said; just as there was nothing factual about what you said.

I am completely fine with debating why or why not custom Mii fighters should be legal in tournament. But if said custom Mii fighters should be legal I don't see why any other custom move sets should not be.

Comparing clone characters to custom moves is completely different. There are (for the most part) many other differences with those characters. As you've already stated. And Clouds limit, Shulks monato, Ryus strong attacks, Lucarios aura. Are short term things; that slightly change attributes of that character for a LIMITED time. They are not changing the character it's self and are built in mechanics.

The one point I can agree with you on is that Mii fighters remain custom even when customs are turned off for a reason. However as I have already said "Smash was never meant to be a competitive game." I'm glad that it is and I have always played it as such, but it is the truth of the matter.

Let the salt commence.

 

[deepseadiva]

#friithemiis

 

[Respect38]

Why should Mii fighters be the only character with a custom move set?

Because Miis are the only characters with valid customs in "custom moves off" mode.

 

[WritersBlah]

I still stand by my opinion that within the customs-off meta, MLG's ruling of Miis was the most sane, beneficial version of the rule we've seen thus far. The biggest issue with Miis is that you can potentially change their loadout between matches to counter whatever character you might be playing against. No other character in the game has access to that option during customs-off. I agree with the players who are anti-Mii because of this countering issue. However, MLG enforced a rule where choosing to play a specific Mii character locked you into that particular set for the rest of the set. This removes the countering issue entirely. I would personally only make two amendments to that ruling for something more universal. First off, I think that switching to another Mii class (Brawler to Gunner for example) mid-set shouldn't be banned, because in that case, you aren't simply switching a handful of moves to better accommodate the situation; you're basically switching to an outright different character. And secondly, I think it would be really beneficial if we could indeed find one standardized set for Brawler, Swordsman, and Gunner so people could get used to a specific load-out to practice in customs-off, (which again, isn't an issue for any other character), but making that set 1111 for the three really is the lazy man's way out. If we could find specific beneficial load-outs that optimize the three characters without making them overly centralized on degenerate play (which is arguable with, say, default Sonic, but is pretty outright obvious with Brawler's helicopter kick), I think we could just standardize to that for customs-off. And seriously, the only really problematic move is helicopter kick. If that move didn't exist, nobody would be arguing that Miis are unfair.

The weight and size issue is something else altogether. Tiny and light is obviously the best optimization for Brawler, but is he really "broken" without helicopter kick? Somebody get back to me on that. And seriously, what's so wrong about optimizing Swordsman's and Gunner's weights? They aren't even serious threats when optimized, so I really don't get the issue with them.

 

[deepseadiva]

I don't get the move counter picking issue. Players all have equal access to the same roster. You can counter pick with any character on the screen including selecting Miis yourself. No ones at a disadvantage because everyone has access to all the same tools.

Having a main isn't a contract.

The issue naturally leads to "allow everyone to counter pick moves" aka customs on.

But I guess if we're creating new rules to force Miis into already rickety logic.

 

[TyDye]

A standardized move set would be fine but even then I would say 4BR or some other note worthy group would almost have to drop a standardized move set for everyone else. Which yes would make "1111" the easy way out.

I don't have any issues with Mii fighters other than the fact that they are allowed customs. But even the argument of no one would play 1111 Miis competitively. That is like saying people only play top tier characters in tournament which is completely false. Any character has the potential to be great if used by the right person. Hell, teir list are based almost exclusively on tournament results making under played characters automatically low tier.

There is also the point of playing under used characters in tournament is kinda like throwing a knuckleball in baseball. "The more often people do one thing, the more beneficial it becomes to do anything else." Look at how many top players in previous games have mained dumpster tier characters and have consistently gotten results. Bizzaro Flame in Melee for example.

 

[Tinkerer]

That's a really arbitrary kind of logic. It's just the weird way this community starting thinking about "customs". Having a customizable moveset is the Miis main gimmick, while it's an optional add-on for all the other characters. Miis do not exist without a self-made moveset. The whole "counterpicking" issue doesn't make much sense either - it is just their thing to be able to change their moves. It's like saying Pokemon Trainer shouldn't be able to change Pokemon because it changes the matchup.

 

[wizrad]

The main premise behind your argument is that Miis have custom moves. This is wrong. There is no debate. Custom moves are disabled when the custom switch is off. Miis still have whatever moves they want. In addition, Miis are given their own section separate from custom fighters in order to differentiate between the two, although evidently this did not work.

That is exactly what your ENTIRE response to my post was. Opinion. There was nothing ignorant about what I said; just as there was nothing factual about what you said.

Did you even read my post? If you didn't, whatever, that's fine. If you did, you're being willfully ignorant. I just showed you the reason why Mii Fighters should be allowed access to their special moves other than the 1111 set with objective facts and you ignored it. This is a problem with our community. We put our blinders on because we let ourselves get more concerned with being right than with doing the thing that is actually the most beneficial to our community.

 

[DanGR]

I'm willing to turn a blind eye to height/weight issues of legality even though I think changing it should be allowed based on my understanding of competitive principles. It would only hurt my chances of being able to use my secondary for me to push that issue though.

It's not difficult or time consuming to set up Miis. We have a 60-80 man monthly in my area that lets us use any height/weight we want with any costume. I've set it up multiple times at several different hours in the tournament and we've had no issues whatsoever. We've ran a 70-man double elimination bracket in 3.5 hours. The problem isn't the Miis. Simply, the problem is running the tournament poorly.

However the reason I turn a blind eye is that I think smallest height/weight Brawler can be really damaging to local scenes, and also disruptive to the balance of the game in general. It's... not sustainable.

 

[WritersBlah]

However the reason I turn a blind eye is that I think smallest height/weight Brawler can be really damaging to local scenes, and also disruptive to the balance of the game in general. It's... not sustainable.

This post makes me really curious if in some alternate universe, Mii Brawler had Sheik's or ZSS's set of tools within a certain size and weight, whether they'd be considered disruptive to game balance.

 

[wizrad]

Why doesn't anyone consider ZSS or MK to be "really damaging" to the scene?

 

[Swamp Sensei]

However the reason I turn a blind eye is that I think smallest height/weight Brawler can be really damaging to local scenes, and also disruptive to the balance of the game in general. It's... not sustainable.

I got to agree with the others above me.

Optimized Mii Brawler isn't anywhere as near of a dominant force as Sheik, Zero Suit Samus, Rosalina, Bayonetta, Ryu, etc.

I'm not sure why we're singling Mii Brawler out here.

 

[Yikarur]

I think Small Mii Brawler is S-Tier. That doesn't mean it destroys balance though.
The problem is that Small Mii Brawler destroys everyone who doesn't know the Match-up so it's a really strong force if he is never allowed because people don't learn the match-up -> making him legal once = pretty op.
It gets a lot better if you know the match-up but he is still S-Tier.

 

[wizrad]

Well, variable sizes aren't likely to happen above locals anyways. It's not like top players will have their national wins threatened by Smawler.

 

[DavemanCozy]

I actually started allowing this in London Ontario. I have only seen one player who uses Miis, but he has a long way to go before showing any relevant results. Honestly, he's happy, our small scrubby scene remains about the same; we let him play how he wants while we continue to play the way we like to.

----

Okay. So; here's something I'm rather curious about. Assuming we decide to stick with the default height and weight restriction.

You know how there are Miis that you can download as QR codes from Nintendo's website? I'm talking the official one here:
http://www.smashbros.com/us/dlc/index.html

Are these Miis default weight and height? Because if they are, I see no reason why these couldn't replace the boring looking guest Miis, at the very least to spice things up. Again, assuming we decide to stick with the default height and weight restriction.

 

[Yikarur]

I actually started allowing this in London Ontario. I have only seen one player who uses Miis, but he has a long way to go before showing any relevant results. Honestly, he's happy, our small scrubby scene remains about the same; we let him play how he wants while we continue to play the way we like to.

Sounds amazing! =) it's bad that some tournaments are just not enjoyable for everyone, because of arbitrary restrictions.

Okay. So; here's something I'm rather curious about. Assuming we decide to stick with the default height and weight restriction.

You know how there are Miis that you can download as QR codes from Nintendo's website? I'm talking the official one here:
http://www.smashbros.com/us/dlc/index.html

Are these Miis default weight and height? Because if they are, I see no reason why these couldn't replace the boring looking guest Miis, at the very least to spice things up. Again, assuming we decide to stick with the default height and weight restriction.

na they are not Default/Default. They are adjusted to match the character they are representing.

 

[DanGR]

I got to agree with the others above me.

Optimized Mii Brawler isn't anywhere as near of a dominant force as Sheik, Zero Suit Samus, Rosalina, Bayonetta, Ryu, etc.

I'm not sure why we're singling Mii Brawler out here.

Yikarur's post was on point imo. Just to elaborate a bit, I think he's an S-tier character that's easier to use than any of Rosa, ZSS, or Sheik by a significant amount. (His handling is a bit slippery at first, but the flow of his combos and decision making with him are both very, very intuitive) He also beats Rosa and ZSS imo. I think the meta is in a nice place right now when it comes to "I want to pick up a better character/secondary, but the top 3 require a huge time investment compared to the rest of the top 10. I'll pick up Diddy/MK instead." Brawler messes with that 'balance'.

If you're a decent Brawler, you just completely wreck people who don't know exactly how to handle your gameplan. Dthrow->fair->upb is guaranteed regardless of DI at an unreasonably wide percent range. All those combos you wish were true with default brawler just work when your aerial attack total durations are smaller. There's a lot more to it, but my point is that a lot of stuff that shouldn't work just... does. It's almost magical in a way.

Those two things + it being banned for the longest time (inexperience from the get-go) would make it really destructive for local scenes to deal with. I've already experienced it first-hand with my own Brawler.

 

[Yikarur]

^very good post. I thought I was the only one who really put time into Small Brawler. This is a perfect elaboration.

but Diddy is not easy to pick up and in my opinion the most technical character in the game so I'd put Mario/Sword Mario at that easy to learn spot instead of Diddy

 

[DanGR]

Yeah, thinking back on it, either of those would have been a better example.

 

[Wii Twerk Trainer]

I'm fine with 50\50 guest size any combination Miis. They literally won't eve damae themetaat all

 

[wizrad]

I don't think Smawler is any more inherently destructive than ZSS, who I think is definitely the better character, or MK, who is worse or about even. The problem with Smawler is that both moves and sizes have been banned for so long. Once everyone gets that getting grabbed at the edge = death, he's not as big of a threat. HK isn't as fast as Boost Kick or Shuttle Loop, so he still needs to combo into it. He doesn't have the range or neutral options. His only viable kill option is HK, otherwise he needs a read. At best, he could try to snipe someone recovering with Shotput or super armor through something with UU.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Na they are not Default/Default. They are adjusted to match the character they are representing.

Ah, that's sad. And to my knowledge, you can't re-adjust neither the weight nor height of the Miis from QR codes.

 

[19_]

Changing the only mii set from 1111 to something else based on the local scenes players is a good idea.

Having only one set still sucks but it is good as a short term compromise.

People should look into this more.

 

[Yikarur]

Changing the only mii set from 1111 to something else based on the local scenes players is a good idea.

Having only one set still sucks but it is good as a short term compromise.

People should look into this more.

This is a terrible idea. What if someone from other cities want to participate but play other sets?
Free Mii is the only good solution tbh.

 

[teluoborg]

Why allow a Custom™ character in a "customs : off" meta tho ? Why not allow custom stages while we're at it ?